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National Anthem

Jimmy

By Jimmy
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Jimmy

Jimmy

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Just wanted to scope opinion regarding our national anthem.

In my opinion 'God Save The Queen' is outdated as i would imagine that the majority of people in this country do not believe in either god, the queen or both.

Therefore i feel a change is in order and 'Jerusalem' is my outright favourite to suceed it. The song/hymn (debate to which it is) stirs passion, pride and patriotism in me and i surely cannot be the only one.

Our current anthem is drab and slow paced, whereas 'Jerusalem' is truly stirring. Admitidly this has only been noticed by myself due to its use in co-ordance with the Ashes series, however it is about time that we had a national anthem that could be sung hand on heart with pride at games and in pubs.

Its not for me to suggest clearly but i don't imagine we would of lost in Belfast if the players had the passion of 'Jerusalem' piped into their ears just prior to kick off biggrin.gif .

You're thoughts?

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annanimo

annanimo

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Posted
Just wanted to scope opinion regarding our national anthem.

In my opinion 'God Save The Queen' is outdated as i would imagine that the majority of people in this country do not believe in either god, the queen or both.

Therefore i feel a change is in order and 'Jerusalem' is my outright favourite to suceed it. The song/hymn (debate to which it is) stirs passion, pride and patriotism in me and i surely cannot be the only one.

Our current anthem is drab and slow paced, whereas 'Jerusalem' is truly stirring. Admitidly this has only been noticed by myself due to its use in co-ordance with the Ashes series, however it is about time that we had a national anthem that could be sung hand on heart with pride at games and in pubs.

Its not for me to suggest clearly but i don't imagine we would of lost in Belfast if the players had the passion of 'Jerusalem' piped into their ears just prior to kick off  biggrin.gif .

You're thoughts?

"Jerusalem" as a National Anthem? You've got to be joking!

First - let me put you straight on one point. "God save the Queen" is not England's national anthem. Contrary to popular belief, England's anthem is in fact "Land of Hope and Glory". "God Save the Queen" is Great Britain's National Anthem and it has annoyed me for some time that Scotland and Wales play their own national songs and opt out of their British identity. We're all British, we should either all have the British anthem or all have our own individual anthems.

So, we'll deal with "Land of Hope and Glory" first. Few people know the words to it. It's irrelevant to our modern society with its overtones of colonialism and superiority, although it does have a rousing tune from Elgar. Time for a change? Yes, especially as most people don't know it's England's anthem anyway.

"God save the Queen" - axe it? Maybe, but not to replace it with "Jerusalem". If you're going to object to the current British anthem on the grounds that people don't believe in God, why replace it with a hymn which carries an even deeper religious message? And with a rather bleak view of Englands's future combined with a blinkered and inaccurate view of our past? "Jerusalem" is British-Israeli propaganda,it comes from a school of religious thought that assumed Britons were God's chosen, and it's not really about England anyway - it's about heaven. How relevant is this song to 21st century British realities?

It has a grand tune, yes. But I would dare to suggest that the reason you think it stirs passion is the way it has been used and associated with patiotic events and great sporting occasions (such as the cricket today). "God Save the Queen" can also be stirring. The tune itself is not English anyway - it is (I believe) German and is also the tune to the Liechtenstein National Anthem, which has more poetically beautiful lyrics. When I saw the Liechtenstein players singing this I could see evidently their passion and pride - unlike when the English players sang our anthem to the same tune. They looked apathetic. It's not the song, but how you sing it.

I agree we need a new anthem. So I have a suggestion:

The Ying Tong Song. Epitomises English silliness, and very suitable for when David James is playing in goal. Also great for those fans who can never be bothered to learn the words.

Any other ideas?

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The Batman

The Batman

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Well, we got to 2005 before someone accused God Save The Queen of being outdated. I thought people thinking it was racist would have been first.

God - not everyone believes in god, what about allah or one of the other ones, it does not represent minour ethnics, or major in Wembley

Queen - what about people who don't believe in the monarchy?? after all, because of the gay PC world that we live in, we have to make everyone happy.. It probably will be changed, i hope it aint.

As for land of hope and glory, it wasn't sung at the trafalgar rememberence in Birmingham as it could offend people, so they sung We are Sailing by Rod Stewart. Maybe that could be our anthem???

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annanimo

annanimo

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As for land of hope and glory, it wasn't sung at the trafalgar rememberence in Birmingham as it could offend people, so they sung We are Sailing by Rod Stewart. Maybe that could be our anthem???

Well, that's silly. I find the song irrelevant, but not necessarily offensive. if you're going to ban everything that might be offensive, you should axe "Flower of Scotland" immediately, it could be construed as offensive towards English people! Especially as Scottish supporters at Hampden only know two lines of the song, usually following it with "If you hate the f...ing England clap your hands" or something of similar nature.

As for Rod Stewart's "Sailing" being a National Anthem - it's hardly a national song is it? How does it represent England?

If we are going to have a new anthem it has to be more than a popular song. It should express our understanding of nationhood and what it means to be English. Neither of the current anthems do it very well, but are better than "Sailing". "Three Lions" in 98 managed to capture the mood of the nation - at least in football terms - so maybe a new one should be written?

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annanimo

annanimo

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Yeah, imagined you were probably being sarcastic although it was difficult to be sure.

Wouldn't want any pathetic PC song as a National Anthem though. Germany did this when they unified so as not to offend and cut out all but one verse of their historical anthem.

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CiderEagle

CiderEagle

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Wouldn't want any pathetic PC song as a National Anthem though.  Germany did this when they unified so as not to offend and cut out all but one verse of their historical anthem.

'Ere, I do hope you're not putting William Blake (aka the Greatest Dead Englishman) 's fantastic poem in the "pathetic PC" category, else you and I are going to have to have words. biggrin.gif

I'd go for "Jerusalem" every time, its a positive, optimistic statement of a desire to see the best possible England we could ever hope for.

Its a bugger to sing, mind you - huge range from highest to lowest note.

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annanimo

annanimo

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'Ere, I do hope you're not putting William Blake (aka the Greatest Dead Englishman) 's fantastic poem in the "pathetic PC" category, else you and I are going to have to have words.  biggrin.gif

I'd go for "Jerusalem" every time, its a positive, optimistic statement of a desire to see the best possible England we could ever hope for.

Its a bugger to sing, mind you - huge range from highest to lowest note.

Actually, I quite like Jerusalem, just I don't think it's an appropriate national anthem. It's about a different England to the one we live in, and an idealised one. But it is of course a great poem by one of the true great poets.

What I was meaning by "pathetic PC" is any attempt to either take our current anthems and make them more "acceptable" (as a Bishop recently suggested) or to adopt a completely new one that meant nothing but which could be more "palatable" to minorities.

I can't say I love "God Save the Queen" but it is a historical anthem associated with our country.

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Jimmy

Jimmy

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"Jerusalem" as a National Anthem?  You've got to be joking!

I assure you i most certainly am not joking!

"God Save the Queen" is Great Britain's National Anthem

I did actually know this but was just approaching the subject from the view of what was sung prior to England Internationals, or major English events.

Referring to 'Land of Hope and Glory': It's irrelevant to our modern society with its overtones of colonialism and superiority.

I agree which is why i did not sugest it replaced 'God save the queen.'

If you're going to object to the current British anthem on the grounds that people don't believe in God, why replace it with a hymn which carries an even deeper religious message? 

According to purists 'Jerusalem' is not infact a hymn. A hymn is, dumbed down, a request to God. Thus in 'God Save The Queen' it is being asked that God overlooks the safety of our queen.

Far from having a deeper religious message, 'Jerusalem' merely questions if the 'lamb of god' (Jesus Christ) walked on English soil. Of course this obviously implies that Jesus Christ did infact exsist, however it is certainly not an upgrade on directly addressing God.

It is infact thought that William Blake was not an overly religious person and thus the notion that his penned words are paying homage to the 'almighty' are off-target.

And with a rather bleak view of Englands's future combined with a blinkered and inaccurate view of our past? 

How does it have a bleak view of Englands future?

It speaks of building a utopia, heaven if you will, in England. I'm not sure how that portrays a bleak future.

I agree that the notion Jesus Christ walked on English soil is perched between far fetched and lie.

"Jerusalem" is British-Israeli propaganda,it comes from a school of religious thought that assumed Britons were God's chosen.

I wasnt aware of this.

Mu understanding is that its (the songs) origins where from the first world war, created at a time when the public where becoming increasingly disillousioned. It was adapted to music during this time and used as a national rallying cry.

Parry's war time version was later adapted on a grander scale by Elgar and the song went on to be used in a similiar role during the second world war. Aside from these uses it has also represented the trade union movement and the Womens Institute.

I had no idea and had never heard that it was British-Israeli propoganda.

But I would dare to suggest that the reason you think it stirs passion is the way it has been used and associated with patiotic events and great sporting occasions (such as the cricket today).

As I stated that it was initially brought ot my attention during the Ashes series you are quite welcome to dare to suggest such things!

They also played 'The winner takes it all' by Abba at the start of Channel 4's coverage, that got the blood racing as well but i certainly don't think it should represent England as a country!

"God Save the Queen" can also be stirring.

Id actually disagree with you and suggest, quite the opposite to what you imply. 'Jerusalem' is a stirring piece of music whereas 'God save the queen' is not and can only act as such when backed up by the emotion of sporting/national events.

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annanimo

annanimo

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We do have some interesting discussions on this forum!

I assure you i most certainly am not joking!

Sorry for not taking you seriously! I suppose it's as good a song as any!

I did actually know this but was just approaching the subject from the view of what was sung prior to England Internationals, or major English events.

I agree which is why i did not sugest it replaced 'God save the queen.'

Well, most people I know are genuinely surprised when I correct them. I'm totally fed up with British identity being intertwined with English identity. They are entirely different. There was a debate last year as to whether "God Save the Queen" should be played prior to the FA Cup Final in Wales as the game was being played in the Millenium Stadium! It seemed the Welsh FA had no idea that either "God Save the Queen" was in fact not England's anthem or that Wales is part of Great Britain.

According to purists 'Jerusalem' is not infact a hymn. A hymn is, dumbed down, a request to God. Thus in 'God Save The Queen' it is being asked that God overlooks the safety of our queen.

I would say it is a hymn. Sorry, but I used to be a church organist. I'm not an authority on hymns, nor am I terribly religious, but I do know that a request to God is considered prayer. A hymn is a spiritual song. It may be worshipful, it may commemorate, it may reflect, it may encourage and it may look forward. God is usualy central to it but this is not necessarily, as in the case of "He who would valiant be" (about courage) or "All things bright and beautiful" (about nature). Hymns very seldom address God. Sorry if that seems pedantic, it's not really my nature! Honest! smile.gif

Far from having a deeper religious message, 'Jerusalem' merely questions if the 'lamb of god' (Jesus Christ) walked on English soil. Of course this obviously implies that Jesus Christ did infact exsist, however it is certainly not an upgrade on directly addressing God.

I don't think it asks the question. It suggests the reality. Why else would it ask a question like that when the obvious answer is "Er, No!!!" I'm not sure the existence of Christ is in question here - I would find this difficult to argue historically anyway - although I suppose for some there would be an issue about his supposed divinity.

It is infact thought that William Blake was not an overly religious person and thus the notion that his penned words are paying homage to the 'almighty' are off-target.

How does it have a bleak view of Englands future?

It speaks of building a utopia, heaven if you will, in England. I'm not sure how that portrays a bleak future.

I agree that the notion Jesus Christ walked on English soil is perched between far fetched and lie.

I wasnt aware of this.

William Blake was not religious in the conventional sense. He was not one of the typical religious people of his time. But he had a deep interest in religious issues and in particular the mystical. He also had a good understanding of the religious culture of his time, as did others like Mozart whose operas (e.g. The Magic Flute) were based around religious ideas of the time which seem rather strange now. He was aware of the intellectual appeal of British-Israeliism among religious society at this time. The very name "Jerusalem" is not an English one. It is a name loaded with historical, cultural and particularly religious significance. This might be lost on us now, but in Blake's day this would have been quite clear. "Jerusalem" was synonymous with the promise of God, with the spiritual inheritance. "The New Jerusalem" mentioned in the Book of Revelation is a symbol of the establishment of heaven on Earth. It is to this that Blake refers, against a backdrop of religious philosophy that suggested that the English were the inheritors of God's promises to Israel. I'm not going to go into the basis for this, you'll just have to believe me that this absurd idea gained momentum in the early colonial era.

Yes, you're right, it speaks of Utopia. But it condemns the "dark satanic mills" of the then current England. Blake had a distrust of the powers behind industrialism. He finds nothing to say positive about the present. So he looks to a previous time, a mythical one, when England's green and pleasant land was...well, green and pleasant. His remedy for England's industrial ills? Not resting "from mental fight till we have built Jerusalem in [England]". This makes no sense unless viewed from a spiritual/poetic angle. It's about the establishment of heaven, although I'm not sure if this means the Christian interpretation or a humanistic one.

My understanding is that its (the songs) origins where from the first world war, created at a time when the public where becoming increasingly disillousioned. It was adapted to music during this time and used as a national rallying cry.

Parry's war time version was later adapted on a grander scale by Elgar and the song went on to be used in a similiar role during the second world war. Aside from these uses it has also represented the trade union movement and the Womens Institute.

Well, I don't know about when it became a song. Obviously Blake was writing long before World War I. It'ssignificance then I'm sure would be different to when it was originally penned. I'm sure when Blake wrote his poem he had no idea it would be sung at cricket matches! Which goes to show it's meaning changes down the years. I can understand the Trade Unions liking it - liberation from satanic industrialism being one of their priorities! And Elgar's tune is magnificent!

They also played 'The winner takes it all' by Abba at the start of Channel 4's coverage, that got the blood racing as well but i certainly don't think it should represent England as a country!

Id actually disagree with you and suggest, quite the opposite to what you imply. 'Jerusalem' is a stirring piece of music whereas 'God save the queen' is not and can only act as such when backed up by the emotion of sporting/national events.

"The Winner takes it all"! No, I don't think so!

I still stand by my claim that "God Save the Queen" has a great tune. I don't care for the lyrics but with different words it is a wonderful anthem. The only reason I don't get stirred by it, and I would think this is true of others, is that I can't get excited about the monarchy. As I said, the Liechtenstein anthem is to the same tune, and can definitely stir without the association with sporting events. In fact, in Liechtenstein it probably is more rousing than the football itself! smile.gif

Well, sorry about the disjointed reply. You've certainly given me something to think about!

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Guest Westcountry Nation

Guest Westcountry Nation

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Yer me babbies......

I reckon God save the queen should be for the whole Uk - the kingdom. I like jerusalem, but again it is religious i guess. I like this version i found - check it out.

The very neame of Wessex

Teakes us way back drough the ages

An’ we cin imagine they Saxon times

As we turn back the Chronicle pages.

King Alfred and St Ealdhelm

Had soulsight in zoo many ways,

Their vision for Wessex survives min,

Continuing the link wi’ they days.

Ah, an the land wi’ its eight shires,

Be rich in earthlore an’ fertile vales,

Hillforts, henges an’ burial mounds,

Chalk downland, moors, an’ dales.

A thousand years could na’r extinguish

The tongue of Wessex or its roots,

As we the tread its unchanged landscape

The spirits of our forbears be anewst.

Zoo come wave thik flag of Wessex

An’ celebrate the girt privilege

Of livin’ in this comely land of ours,

Wessex: our beloved heritage.

UKIP???? i say WIP! up the westcountry!!!! speak thine dialect if yer proud.

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annanimo

annanimo

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No, it's not. God Save the Queen is Britain's National Anthem.

Land of Hope and Glory is England's National Anthem.

I said earlier in the thread that few people realise this. you have just confirmed my point!

OK, I know I've contributed quite a lot to this thread, but it's something I feel is important.

So, I've done some research. I don't like to be wrong so i've checked it out. And Land of Hope and Glory is England's national anthem. See here: England's Anthem It was actually used in England football matches down the years but the FA now stick with God Save the Queen because of the way in which Land of Hope and Glory has been used by right-wing groups and identified with racism, etc.

But it's not an official anthem, and never will be as long as there is a UK. Similarly, Scotland and Wales do not have their own official anthems. Neither does Cornwall, in spite of its having adopted one!

So, Jerusalem could not really be a British national anthem, as it's exclusively English in character. I can't really think of a song I feel would represent the British Isles adequately.

In regards Jerusalem, I came across an interesting comment on the subject which I have copied in full as I wouldn't do it justice otherwise. Does make you think about what exactly is English identity:

It's a few days after the Ashes victory and England is still resonnating to the sound of Jerusalem, our unofficial national anthem.

But is Jerusalem suitable as England's national anthem? In a letter to the Daily Mail J.J Jenkins of Wales writes:

William Blake fails to mention that if Jesus had, indeed, "walked on England's pastures of green," at the beginning of the first century, he wouldn't have met any Englishmen. There was no 'England' for another 400 years.

He would, instead, have heard the natives speaking the Language of Heaven, also known as Welsh, the language of the area now known as England for at least 1,000 years before the English first arrived from Germany, around AD450, more than four centuries after Jesus's time.

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