Gay Players

[City Exile]

Heard on the radio this morning that the FA are going to run an 'anti homophobic' campaign in football, much the same I suspect as the anti-racism one, that has had some success.

This was followed by some guy then commenitng that if a player admitted being gay, that would effectivley be the end of their career. Now I am am not niave enough to know that it would be a target for some chanting during a game, but would we really care? I am sure there must have been players who happened to be gay that have played for City in our time (and I really do not care who they may or may not have been).

So, hypotetecially, would most City fans care one way or the other? Good campaign or a waste of money? Frankly, all I care about is how they play on the pitch wearing the red and white, rather than what a player gets up to of it (within reason).

Better a gay than a drunk?

[deadratinmycider]

They only ever want to play at the back though.

[tompo]

They only ever want to play at the back though.

Some may fancy playing in the hole.

[screech]

We could do with a left footer.

[Guest jonnysummers]

There was quite obviously a problem with racism in football which is now much less obvious although I suspect, as in all areas of life, it still exists to a certain extent. I wonder whether this reduction is due to campaigns like Kick Racism Out, or as I suspect, is it due to peoples attitudes slowly changing, coupled with all seater stadiums - It's easy to shout rasist obcenities when you can hide in a large standing crowd, not so easy when seated and easily identified.

I have to wonder why anyone thinks there is a need for a campaign for gay players as I cannot recall hearing any comments about players sexuallity.

[bobby]

I have to wonder why anyone thinks there is a need for a campaign for gay players as I cannot recall hearing any comments about players sexuallity.

Just a thought -

Justin Fashanu played in the England Youth and Under 21 team and made his professional football debut at Norwich City in 1979. He became Britain's first one million pound black footballer when he transferred to Nottingham Forest in 1981.

Brian Clough, the Manager of Nottingham Forest, bought Justin Fashanu for one million pounds in 1980. At the time Justin Fashanu was in a heterosexual relationship but he was soon drawn to Nottingham's gay scene. When Brian Clough learned of Justin's gay leanings he suspended him. However, Justin still turned up for training, whereupon Brian Clough had the police escort him from the premises.

Obituary by Ivan Ponting in The Independent, 4th. May, 1998, "For individuals a little different from the crowd, professional football can be a cruelly insular world, and while sensitivity does exist in the macho environment of dressing room, practice pitch and bar, often it is well advised to keep its head down. Justin Fashanu was very different: he was gay and he admitted it, a combination with which, it seemed, many people within the English national game could not cope.

Maybe this will help people think about why the FA are taking this issue seriously?

[red panda]

Just a thought -

Justin Fashanu played in the England Youth and Under 21 team and made his professional football debut at Norwich City in 1979. He became Britain's first one million pound black footballer when he transferred to Nottingham Forest in 1981.

Brian Clough, the Manager of Nottingham Forest, bought Justin Fashanu for one million pounds in 1980. At the time Justin Fashanu was in a heterosexual relationship but he was soon drawn to Nottingham's gay scene. When Brian Clough learned of Justin's gay leanings he suspended him. However, Justin still turned up for training, whereupon Brian Clough had the police escort him from the premises.

Obituary by Ivan Ponting in The Independent, 4th. May, 1998, "For individuals a little different from the crowd, professional football can be a cruelly insular world, and while sensitivity does exist in the macho environment of dressing room, practice pitch and bar, often it is well advised to keep its head down. Justin Fashanu was very different: he was gay and he admitted it, a combination with which, it seemed, many people within the English national game could not cope.

Maybe this will help people think about why the FA are taking this issue seriously?

I remember his brother (John) being the target of "You only score with your brother" songs. The place I think I remember City fans singing this was an FA Cup tie against Wimbledon at Selhurst Park, which we won with a weak, speculative long shot (by Andy May??) for which their keeper dived about ten minutes too early. For the rest of the match we were subject to an aerial bombardment from the Wimbledon of old. But somehow we survived (towards the end, the clock behind us on the old, steep terrace at Selhurst Park was getting as much attention as the match). Ahhhh, happy days

[Brianred]

Heard on the radio this morning that the FA are going to run an 'anti homophobic' campaign in football, much the same I suspect as the anti-racism one, that has had some success.

This was followed by some guy then commenitng that if a player admitted being gay, that would effectivley be the end of their career. Now I am am not niave enough to know that it would be a target for some chanting during a game, but would we really care? I am sure there must have been players who happened to be gay that have played for City in our time (and I really do not care who they may or may not have been).

So, hypotetecially, would most City fans care one way or the other? Good campaign or a waste of money? Frankly, all I care about is how they play on the pitch wearing the red and white, rather than what a player gets up to of it (within reason).

Better a gay than a drunk?

This would be for the players to decide? but i wouldn't want to pick the soap up in the shower!

[Guest annanimo]

About Justin Fashanu: I appreciate his life was a tragic one, that he struggled to overcome many problems, not least prejudice.

But there have been a lot of untruths said about his relationship with Brian Clough. I lived in Nottingham at the time, and I can assure you it was not known at the time that he was gay. He may have been our first openly gay player but he was not open about it when he was playing at Norwich and Forest. He was even parading around with attractive girls all the time as if to prove a point. Cloughie disliked him for his extravagant lifestyle, not for his homosexuality. He was also not playing well at the time which added to the man's problems.

Fashanu became more open later in his "career" which is understandable really bearing in mind the fact that he would have expected others in the game to have been less than supportive. He had other complex problems as well, for which no-one offered him any genuine help. People like Brian Clough should have been able to see that Fashanu needed some help rather than being victimised. Clough failed Fashanu - something he admitted to in his autobiography. But let's not have any of this rubbish about Clough being anti-gay. He honestly had no idea, neither did the other players or the fans.

One of my relatives is gay, he is a Notts County fan. he thought Fashanu was rubbish. No prejudice there!

When I lived in Scotland Fashanu was playing out his career at Airdrie. He got a lot of stick, but not really for being gay. I think he got a bit more racist abuse, and also stick for the very physical way he played!

Fashanu's problems were very complex and not be simplified to suit anyone's political agenda. He was a promising young player who was never given the help or support he deserved and needed. unfortunately he never fulfilled his obvious potential but is that due to Clough being anti-gay or because football isn't geared towards helping players develop emotionally?

Onto the more general issue of homosexuals in football. I'm prbably going to get a hell of a lot of stick here, but I've been campaigning for greater gay participation for years. Maybe because I have some gay relatives and friends, I don't understand the prejudices some have. And these prejudices are still rife. Even at the level of football I play, I can imagine what the result would be if the dressing room found out a player was gay. It would be intolerable.

There is a gay world cup which was recently played in England. We have a terrific team called Stonewall FC who are one of the greatest gay teams in the world, which makes me very proud. What makes me less proud is the hypocritical stance of the FA. When every Premier League club and some lower division clubs were asked if they could spare a player or official to present the prizes at the gay competition, they all declined, as did the games' authorities. Just to underline the prejudice that genuinely exists (not to mention ignorance), Charlton Athletic refused saying that being seen at a gay event would compromise their image as a club who works with children.

For me, players should not have to be "openly gay" anyway. We will really have achieved something when this doesn't matter at all. I couldn't care less if I'm playing football with straight guys or gay guys - they're just footballers. Footballers are footballers are footballers. I don't care if they're gay, straight or bi; black or white...they could even come from outer space for all i care, so long as they can play.

Ivan Ponting makes the point that football is often insensitive. This is the real problem. For young people trying to come to terms with their sexuality, their spirituality, their emotional needs, etc. being thrown into a system with a "survival of the fittest" mentality is not the best way to deal with them.

[Guest Fred Fjord]

I lived in Nottingham at the time, and I can assure you it was not known at the time that he was gay

Have to disagree...I used to spend a lot of time in Nottingham, and Justin's preferred sexuality was widely known.....this came courtesy of taxi drivers who would relate tales of dropping Justin off at Nottingham's well known gay clubs.

I've never seen or heard any evidence that Clough took exception, but am open to the possibility it may exist.

[Guest annanimo]

Have to disagree...I used to spend a lot of time in Nottingham, and Justin's preferred sexuality was widely known.....this came courtesy of taxi drivers who would relate tales of dropping Justin off at Nottingham's well known gay clubs.

I've never seen or heard any evidence that Clough took exception, but am open to the possibility it may exist.

Interesting you say that. I was very young at the time admittedly. But there were a lot of Forest fans in my family, some of them didn't care much for Fashanu but I didn't think that many people thought he was gay. Obviously I was too young to get info from taxi drivers who were in the know but there were loads of rumours about Fash going around. In fact, I remember one rumour that he was going to marry Bet Lynch off Corrie! He was always going around with glamourous girls anyway, as if to put up a front that he was "normal" - quite sad really. He obviously was trying to hide his sexuality when at Nottingham, even if taxi drivers (!) and others suspected he was gay.

What nobody has ever tried to explain is, if Fash was openly gay while at Forest, what did the rest of the dressing room think and how did they respond? I don't think for a minute all Fash's difficulties were the result of personal prejudice from one manager.

[Gazred]

As fans i don't think it should make a difference to us, if the players performing well on the pitch, the fans will get behind him (exscuse the innuendo!). I do however see plenty of problems for that player from rival fans and also its clear to understand why a team full of hetrosexual men, would not want to be sharing there shower/bath/changing room with a homosexual man, so with that, as it stands at the moment, i don't think its possible for gay players to freely and openly be a part of the professional game.

[Antman]

judging by the amount of 'hilarious' asides that followed the original post, it seems a lot of blokes are still uneasy about aspects of (their?) sexuality.

the danger of such an overt campaign is that it triggers the inevitable

'nanny state' outbursts. I would have thought it better to run a stronger, more direct campaign within the dressing rooms of clubs at all levels first. if it's an issue that affects the players then target their environment before going wider.

[Guest annanimo]

judging by the amount of 'hilarious' asides that followed the original post, it seems a lot of blokes are still uneasy about aspects of (their?) sexuality.

the danger of such an overt campaign is that it triggers the inevitable

'nanny state' outbursts. I would have thought it better to run a stronger, more direct campaign within the dressing rooms of clubs at all levels first. if it's an issue that affects the players then target their environment before going wider.

Agree with you totally. The "overt campaign" you talk about could actually be counter-productive.

The way forward is to work with clubs at various levels to ensure that gay people are given an equally opportunity to develop as players. It's about facilitating opportunity rather than some high profile "campaign" aimed bringing openly gay footballers into the public eye. It might also help if there was a genuine network of support within the game to help young people deal adequately with emotional/sexual development issues.

[Guest Fred Fjord]

In fact, I remember one rumour that he was going to marry Bet Lynch off Corrie

Justin used to hang out with Bet (Julie Goodyear) in his Torquay days, he was player coach....I once chatted to a former Torquay player, who described how Bet was invited into the Plainmoor dressing room and delivered a bit of a pre match gee up at Justin's behest. Torquay were having a season like this, and they just missed the drop, so maybe it worked.

[Guest SW Valleys Red]

This would be for the players to decide? but i wouldn't want to pick the soap up in the shower!

You really should consider changing your name to ****in "Brain Dead"!!

[Brianred]

You really should consider changing your name to ****in "Brain Dead"!!

Go and put your make up on Twa#! If you got no humour bog off.

[ChubStixx]

This would be for the players to decide? but i wouldn't want to pick the soap up in the shower!

Go and put your make up on Twa#! If you got no humour bog off.

Splendid.

You come up with a lame, completely unoriginal homophobic comment and expect not to get slated ?!

As for the reply...

Very sad, especially for a man who claims to have supported city since 1960....

[Guest SW Valleys Red]

Go and put your make up on Twa#! If you got no humour bog off.

I have a sense of humour. I'm also quite intelligent but have no time or tolleration for homophobia, or those who make homobhobic statements.

[Nibor]

I don't care if they're gay, lesbian, or have a preference for goats and dwarves in nappies as long as they show effort and commitment when they play.

I find that most people who are homophobic are actually just a bit scared they might like some of that themselves. Besides, for every gay bloke there's an extra woman available!

Nibor

[Brianred]

I have a sense of humour. I'm also quite intelligent but have no time or tolleration for homophobia, or those who make homobhobic statements.

If I'm against gays thats down to me, but it was not meant in a malicious way! so don't come on here and tell me that i should tow the line. i am entitled to my opinion!

[richwwtk]

If I'm against gays thats down to me, but it was not meant in a malicious way! so don't come on here and tell me that i should tow the line. i am entitled to my opinion!

Does that mean you would support someone coming on here making racist comments but claiming it was ok because it was 'light hearted'?

[Brianred]

I don't care if they're gay, lesbian, or have a preference for goats and dwarves in nappies as long as they show effort and commitment when they play.

I find that most people who are homophobic are actually just a bit scared they might like some of that themselves. Besides, for every gay bloke there's an extra woman available!

Nibor

When your happily married with 5 kids there is NO extra women!

[newboy]

Splendid.

You come up with a lame, completely unoriginal homophobic comment and expect not to get slated ?!

As for the reply...

Very sad, especially for a man who claims to have supported city since 1960....

Aw.. come on lighten up a little. Having had a broad upbringing, being reasonably intelligent, having had a gay uncle and now having a gay brother in law, I'm pretty comfortable with the gay scene without being gay myself.

And that was only a predictable, vaguely amusing response. Nothing to get precious over. Christ - you should see some of the genuine abuse some gay people get. Shocking.

[Nibor]

When your happily married with 5 kids there is NO extra women!

Yeah, I'd imagine that pretty much anyone who's been married long enough to have 5 kids has learnt their lesson by then.

Nibor

[frenchred]

All I ever hear is why don't we attract more ethnic minorities, gays, lesbians different religions etc etc. I didn't think you got stopped at the gate for any of these so if they like football they will turn up if they don't they can bog off just the same as anyone else.

[Flounder]

Who says we haven't already. It is estimated that between 3-6% of the Male Population is (OK, research from the in the states). So out of a squad of 30 odd male players, probably from a wide cross section of society, one if not two may be gay....

Stats

[Guest twoseats]

I know of at least one 'household name' Premiership player that's gay. There's plenty of rumours about others but nothing substantiated. Me? Couldn't care less whether players are gay or not and I'd suggest that most fans, whether they will admit or not, wouldn't care either as long as the player was talented and gave their all for the club and shirt. Fans have a strange ability to come to terms with things they might otherwise object to pretty quickly if they benefit the club they support...

Twoseats.

[Brianred]

Does that mean you would support someone coming on here making racist comments but claiming it was ok because it was 'light hearted'?

I'm not racist! but if i come across a light hearted comments no matter what YEAH i could see a funny side. i have a life!

[One Team In Keynsham]

Heard on the radio this morning that the FA are going to run an 'anti homophobic' campaign in football, much the same I suspect as the anti-racism one, that has had some success.

This was followed by some guy then commenitng that if a player admitted being gay, that would effectivley be the end of their career. Now I am am not niave enough to know that it would be a target for some chanting during a game, but would we really care? I am sure there must have been players who happened to be gay that have played for City in our time (and I really do not care who they may or may not have been).

So, hypotetecially, would most City fans care one way or the other? Good campaign or a waste of money? Frankly, all I care about is how they play on the pitch wearing the red and white, rather than what a player gets up to of it (within reason).

Better a gay than a drunk?

If one of our players was gay, or even the whole squad, I wouldn't give a toss.

[City Exile]

When football lags behind the armed forces in formulating policy on this, you know it's the governing bodies being their usual slow-witted, ineffective selves. As someone on the radio this morning said, you can legislate for these prejudices, although it then takes years, probably a generation at least, for the cultural effects to filter through completely. There's no excuse for homophobia - outlaw it. It will be incredibly difficult to do at first, but it must be done.

Oh yes, and expect exactly the same utter bolloqs from some within the game about sharing showers and baths, male environments and so on. Exactly the same nonsense that was trotted out by the armed forces about 'disruptive influences' and such like. It's a bankrupt argument and anyone espousing it needs some serious education, because their ignorance is showing.

I saw Eric Hall on TV talking about this. It was almost painful. When asked if there are any gay footballers in the premiership he said "probably not, maybe one or two". How would he know? "Well there's no way of knowing obviously, unless he tried to pull you". He doesn't think gay people would be interested in football, they like things like shopping instead.

As for the campaign, It will need very careful positioning. Is there a difference between shouting "get up you poof" at some player, as being racist? I very much doubt most people (gay or not) would be as offended as if someone told a black player he eats too many bananas. Both appeal to false stereotypes though. Of course there can be more serious homophobism too.

I would hope if they are going to go down this road the campaign is aimed at the fans and players/management/clubs. Given that homophobia (like racism) exists all levels of society one would hope that all sections of football are targeted.

Will be interesting to see how this campaign pans out.

(Stands back...)

[Pewsham]

judging by the amount of 'hilarious' asides that followed the original post, it seems a lot of blokes are still uneasy about aspects of (their?) sexuality.

the danger of such an overt campaign is that it triggers the inevitable

'nanny state' outbursts. I would have thought it better to run a stronger, more direct campaign within the dressing rooms of clubs at all levels first. if it's an issue that affects the players then target their environment before going wider.

appallingly I had to scroll down to the thirteenth posting before someone said this. No I'm not gay, yes I work with two overtly gay men and no it doesn't bother me. There is a fair bit of banter between us and we enjoy the humour. Being called a "titlicker" was a phrase I cracked up at. I fear though that a similar relationship between Footballers would cause a fair degree of unease among the more homophobic players, and potentially have a very adverse affect on a team.

In short the PFA have a duty here - but I don't think they are in any hurry to fulfill that duty

[One Team In Keynsham]

Justin used to hang out with Bet (Julie Goodyear) in his Torquay days, he was player coach....I once chatted to a former Torquay player, who described how Bet was invited into the Plainmoor dressing room and delivered a bit of a pre match gee up at Justin's behest. Torquay were having a season like this, and they just missed the drop, so maybe it worked.

Begs the question which soap star would be best suited to motivate our present shower into something that can start winning games and get us mathematically safe.

[bransonmo]

Players identified as homosexual, will always cop an earful on the pitch. Its up to them how they cope with it, can cope with it, or eventually want to cope with it.

The pressure to remain silent, and keep their bedroom preferences to themselves is enormous. In all my years , I have only known of two, who had very short careers, down to not coping with the opposition teams constant ragging.

[Guest SouthGlosRed]

judging by the amount of 'hilarious' asides that followed the original post, it seems a lot of blokes are still uneasy about aspects of (their?) sexuality.

I have often seen this sort of thing quoted, but using the same logic, if I don't like Bristol Rovers, does that make me a closet Gashead ?

Or, if I don't like Terrorists does it mean that I am just suppressing my Terrorist tendencies ?

No it doesn't, it is just a bollo(ks theory that is spouted from time to time, without anything to back it up.

IMHO Can't see what difference it makes if a player is Gay or not, but can't see a need for an anti-homophobic campaignn in football.

How many closet Gay footballers are going to come out and support the campaign ?

[Guest annanimo]

When football lags behind the armed forces in formulating policy on this, you know it's the governing bodies being their usual slow-witted, ineffective selves. As someone on the radio this morning said, you can legislate for these prejudices, although it then takes years, probably a generation at least, for the cultural effects to filter through completely. There's no excuse for homophobia - outlaw it. It will be incredibly difficult to do at first, but it must be done.

Oh yes, and expect exactly the same utter bolloqs from some within the game about sharing showers and baths, male environments and so on. Exactly the same nonsense that was trotted out by the armed forces about 'disruptive influences' and such like. It's a bankrupt argument and anyone espousing it needs some serious education, because their ignorance is showing.

I saw Eric Hall on TV talking about this. It was almost painful. When asked if there are any gay footballers in the premiership he said "probably not, maybe one or two". How would he know? "Well there's no way of knowing obviously, unless he tried to pull you". He doesn't think gay people would be interested in football, they like things like shopping instead.

As for the campaign, It will need very careful positioning. Is there a difference between shouting "get up you poof" at some player, as being racist? I very much doubt most people (gay or not) would be as offended as if someone told a black player he eats too many bananas. Both appeal to false stereotypes though. Of course there can be more serious homophobism too.

I would hope if they are going to go down this road the campaign is aimed at the fans and players/management/clubs. Given that homophobia (like racism) exists all levels of society one would hope that all sections of football are targeted.

Will be interesting to see how this campaign pans out.

(Stands back...)

Excellent and intelligent post!

The "probably one or two" thing is telling. We realistically don't know. Why should we be so surprised if some Prem players are gay? And why should it matter?

You get all kinds of people who become footballers, from all cultures, all religions, all political persuasions etc., so why do some people think it would make a real difference in the dressing room if some were gay? You're right, the "disruptive influence" excuse is pretty lame, it is really blind prejudice masquerading as intellectual critique. In this day and age it is a sad indictment of our current society that these prejudices remain.

The one thing that does annoy me about some in the gay lobby is that they feel they have to be ridiculously open about it: I meet a gay guy in a bar. "Hi, my name's John, I'm gay" he says. "So what?" is my response. "I couldn't care less what your sexuality is. I'm more interested in whether you're buying the next round..." Either that or they become exclusive and insular, understandable but regrettable. I think a lot of people get irritated by people who have to be so public about what is actually a private issue, which is counter-productive because it reinforces irrelevant differences.

I would love to see more gays involved in football - in fact, in sport generally. But I'm not convinced a high profile campaign in which people are labelled as "gay" or "straight" is the answer. A Prem player "coming out" might help a bit, but in the long term what we need to do is to give everyone equal opportunity rather than (as the FA have done) squeeze some people out at the lowest levels and then complain they aren't playing at the top.

Players identified as homosexual, will always cop an earful on the pitch. Its up to them how they cope with it, can cope with it, or eventually want to cope with it.

Exactly, why shouyld they be under pressure to "come out". It's a personal thing for the players, not something for the FA to get political about.

[Pewsham]

How many closet Gay footballers are going to come out and support the campaign ?

No idea - and neither has anyone else, but it's no reason why there shouldn't be some direction and steer from somewhere. I guess the feeling that you should be able to feel OK about expressing your preferences whether they be Black or White, Catholic or Protestant, Homosexual or Hetrosexual, Tory or Labour is something that everyone should be able to do without repercusions in a free society. I'm not entirely sure that Gay players feel they can do this, which is why the PFA have a role to play in this debate.

[Guest newman4manager]

I think there is absolutely a need for campaign on this.

Those on this forum who are old enough will remember when "you black b***ard" was a common chant from the terraces. Bananas were thrown on to the pitch and Mixed Blessings was a hit on TV.

But the more clubs, stewards and - admittedly - outside influences like TV etc made it clear this was unacceptable, the rarer those chants became.

Nowadays in the Atyeo, my kids hear lots of swearing and very heated abuse of players, but it is never on the grounds of their skin colour.

It has taken a long time and was a tough road - but thanks to persistence from all parties - and the bravery of players like Clyde Best, Viv Anderson and John Barnes - we now have very little overt racism in mainstream football. Job not finished but certainly progress well made.

We need to get to the same place with homophobia. It will be as tough for gay players/officials/fans etc as it was for black players in the late 70's, but the road starts here.

I doubt the ratio of gay players to straight reflects the number in society as a whole (the same is true of Asian players for example), but even so, we need to have the few brave trailblazers who will 'come out', get God knows what abuse, but gradually force acceptance.

The only criteria for players (or anyone else for that matter) is whether they have the ability and the attitude to to their job well. One day we'll get there, so we may as well start now.

[Guest Fred Fjord]

Begs the question which soap star would be best suited to motivate our present shower into something that can start winning games and get us mathematically safe.

I'd have thought Walter Gabriel from The Archers, might have been the man....

[Guest annanimo]

I think there is absolutely a need for campaign on this.

Those on this forum who are old enough will remember when "you black b***ard" was a common chant from the terraces. Bananas were thrown on to the pitch and Mixed Blessings was a hit on TV.

But the more clubs, stewards and - admittedly - outside influences like TV etc made it clear this was unacceptable, the rarer those chants became.

Nowadays in the Atyeo, my kids hear lots of swearing and very heated abuse of players, but it is never on the grounds of their skin colour.

It has taken a long time and was a tough road - but thanks to persistence from all parties - and the bravery of players like Clyde Best, Viv Anderson and John Barnes - we now have very little overt racism in mainstream football. Job not finished but certainly progress well made.

We need to get to the same place with homophobia. It will be as tough for gay players/officials/fans etc as it was for black players in the late 70's, but the road starts here.

I doubt the ratio of gay players to straight reflects the number in society as a whole (the same is true of Asian players for example), but even so, we need to have the few brave trailblazers who will 'come out', get God knows what abuse, but gradually force acceptance.

The only criteria for players (or anyone else for that matter) is whether they have the ability and the attitude to to their job well. One day we'll get there, so we may as well start now.

Sure, but there is a difference between black players and gay players.

Skin colour is very visible, sexual orientation isn't. One is public, the other a private issue.

The problem I see is that by drawing attention to a vital issue we might draw attention to individuals as well, which might cause more problems for them than it would resolve.

I know a gay man who was invovled in the Gay Christian Movement. He went to church and nobody suspected anything. It was only in private that the expressed his sexuality. Now, that's a personal thing. I'm not saying he was either right or wrong not to be more open but he decided whether he was to "come out" and how he should live with his sexuality. As far as I know, he never encountered any prejudice from the people he opened up to - which is an important point. You can only be open and honest with people you trust. If i was a gay player I wouldn't a) feel the need to declare such an irrelevance as my sexuality and b) wouldn't trust the media to present it is an objective way.

We have to create the kind of environment where people feel the freedom to be themselves. How we do that, I'm not sure.

[cheshire_red]

Some GARY players would be nice!

[red panda]

Surprised it took this long to happen: Re-united again

Oops - wrong thread

[Guest annanimo]

I know I've contributed a bit more than usual on here today, but just in regards the tangent we went off at earlier regarding Justin fashanu, I thought this link might be useful to those interested:

Justin Fashanu

[Wilksi]

I think we should ask neo about this

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

Oh for god sake, whatever next, more moves to encourage pikeys and eskimos at football.

[Guest annanimo]

Oh for god sake, whatever next, more moves to encourage pikeys and eskimos at football.

Hey, what you got against eskimos?

[Guest paulton rovers red]

isnt craig woodman an eskimo?

[Guest hilltop red]

Sexuality is not an issue to me.

And i feel sorry for people that find it to be a issue. We are living in the 21st century, and know that queers don't have a mentle illness ( maybe a sore hole)

A players sexuality is private, and i could'nt careless whether players prefer the neigbours son to the neighbours daughter.

The anti racism campaign is working, but you will always get the odd ###### shout abuse, this is somthing stewards could address.

Is the problem so bad the FA need to launch a new campagin, instead of spending money at grass roots leval. Are gay players complaining in droves about the amount of abuse they get?

[Guest revkev]

We could do with a left footer.

That was funny . By the way, a "left footer" is an expression for Irish Catholics, not homosexuals

[Guest twaters]

This topic should interest me, but it doesnt!

At the end of the day i would have a problem with a player admitting he was gay and then getting the abuse. That is NOT acceptable. But as for homophobic language, I'm afraid its a common use in todays game and society.

For example many a times ive had friends say to me "that is so gay" and then suddenly realize what they have said and how it might be considered an insult to me and apologise. I always tell em don't worry i know what you ment. I don't think when chants aimed at hetro players eg poof etc are ment as anti gay, they are ment as derogitory terms.

However i do agree that more should be done behind closed doors to encourage gay players to feel comfortable and accepted. A Gay man in a room full of straight men is actually going to feel alot more uncomfortable than the straight men, trust me! don't flatter yourselves with rubbish like he is going to fancy me or i better not drop the soap. That kind of stuff is insulting and complete rubbish.

Ok now this topic has interested me!

[Guest annanimo]

Interesting contribution.

But as for homophobic language, I'm afraid its a common use in todays game and society.

Yes, but does that mean we have to accept it?

For example many a times ive had friends say to me "that is so gay" and then suddenly realize what they have said and how it might be considered an insult to me and apologise.

Why would it be an insult. I'd rather be gay than be a bigot.

I don't think when chants aimed at hetro players eg poof etc are ment as anti gay, they are ment as derogitory terms.

OK, they're not meant as anti-gay. I'm sure Enoch Powell didn't mean to be racist. You're right, they're aimed more as a general term of abuse. But is it acceptable to continually associate terms of abuse with homosexuality and homosexual beheavour? Take it from a different perspective - what if we replaced words like "poof" with something relating to Bristol City fans? Would that be OK?

A Gay man in a room full of straight men is actually going to feel alot more uncomfortable than the straight men, trust me!

You're right of course, but why should he feel uncomfortable? Why should it matter?

[Guest mike11]

I remember his brother (John) being the target of "You only score with your brother" songs. The place I think I remember City fans singing this was an FA Cup tie against Wimbledon at Selhurst Park, which we won with a weak, speculative long shot (by Andy May??) for which their keeper dived about ten minutes too early. For the rest of the match we were subject to an aerial bombardment from the Wimbledon of old. But somehow we survived (towards the end, the clock behind us on the old, steep terrace at Selhurst Park was getting as much attention as the match). Ahhhh, happy days

Andy May??) Shouldn,t that be Andy Gay?

[Guest hilltop red]

You're right of course, but why should he feel uncomfortable? Why should it matter?

Yes, thats what i cant understand about some gays. Would a hetro worry about being in a room with only girls. Would a girl worry about being in a room with straight men?

Some gays seem to make more of an issue of their sexuality then it really is. (This annoys me). or want there sexuality to be an issue. This really annoys me, I don't care if your gay!!!

An example would be craig and kemal on this years big brother. Two people, who thought that the time to raise their sexuality would be on national television. " I just want to be accepted" they kept moaning on and on.

[CiderHider]

Just a thought -

Justin Fashanu played in the England Youth and Under 21 team and made his professional football debut at Norwich City in 1979. He became Britain's first one million pound black footballer when he transferred to Nottingham Forest in 1981.

Brian Clough, the Manager of Nottingham Forest, bought Justin Fashanu for one million pounds in 1980. At the time Justin Fashanu was in a heterosexual relationship but he was soon drawn to Nottingham's gay scene. When Brian Clough learned of Justin's gay leanings he suspended him. However, Justin still turned up for training, whereupon Brian Clough had the police escort him from the premises.

Obituary by Ivan Ponting in The Independent, 4th. May, 1998, "For individuals a little different from the crowd, professional football can be a cruelly insular world, and while sensitivity does exist in the macho environment of dressing room, practice pitch and bar, often it is well advised to keep its head down. Justin Fashanu was very different: he was gay and he admitted it, a combination with which, it seemed, many people within the English national game could not cope.

Maybe this will help people think about why the FA are taking this issue seriously?

I used to live a few doors down from John & Justin 18 yrs ago in my old home town.

The only thing i will say is as the only black family in the village the whole family was victimized and eventually left.

Sad but true

[kit]

If one of our players was gay, or even the whole squad, I wouldn't give a toss.

Even if they paid you for one??

[Guest annanimo]

Yes, thats what i cant understand about some gays. Would a hetro worry about being in a room with only girls. Would a girl worry about being in a room with straight men?

Some gays seem to make more of an issue of their sexuality then it really is. (This annoys me). or want there sexuality to be an issue. This really annoys me, I don't care if your gay!!!

An example would be craig and kemal on this years big brother. Two people, who thought that the time to raise their sexuality would be on national television. " I just want to be accepted" they kept moaning on and on.

Yeah, top post mate. If you just "want to be accepted" you don't deliberately go around demonstrating the fact that you're supposedly "different"! I mean, I don't go around telling people "Hi, I'm Andy, I'm straight!" I've done a fair bit of promoting gay rights (despite not being gay myself) and I have to say that while I think it's a very important issue some gay people don't help themselves my intentionally making a bigger issue of the sexuality than is necessary.

For me, promoting "gay rights" is about creating equality and facilitating integration. Therefore it bothers me when gay people feel the need to be introverted and exclusive, only mixing in the "gay scene" or reinforcing pathetic gay stereotypes that actually alienate themselves from "straight" people. A gay friend of mine in Glasgow hates the gay scene because he feels it's actually all political and about making statements more than it is about being a social environment.

Take the "Gay Pride" marches. I think they're a great idea, don't get me wrong. But I would love to see a world where these kind of things weren't necessary, where nobody thought twice about someone's sexuality because it isn't important.

[Gazred]

Would a hetro worry about being in a room with only girls. Would a girl worry about being in a room with straight men?

Taking the assumption that both the woman and the men are hetro, there is a mutal sexual attraction, the question you want to ask is would a room full of straight women be happy with a gay women amongst them?

I'm no woman, but id bet that there wouldnt be anywhere near as much fuss as if it were men!

[Guest hilltop red]

Taking the assumption that both the woman and the men are hetro, there is a mutal sexual attraction, the question you want to ask is would a room full of straight women be happy with a gay women amongst them?

I'm no woman, but id bet that there wouldnt be anywhere near as much fuss as if it were men!

I forget that example.

But there probabley is more a gay issue in womens football then male. Womens football genuariley(sp) has the steriotype(sp) of being full of lesbiens. This view needs sorting

[bobby]

I forget that example.

But there probabley is more a gay issue in womens football then male. Womens football genuariley(sp) has the steriotype(sp) of being full of lesbiens.

my guess would be that the basis for that stereotype comes from uninformed, ignorant males!

what a load of nonsense, why would there be more of a "gay issue" in womens football rather than mens?

[Guest hilltop red]

my guess would be that the basis for that stereotype comes from uninformed, ignorant males!

what a load of nonsense, why would there be more of a "gay issue" in womens football rather than mens?

Exactley

Thats why we I said people need to be informed

[screech]

Shouldn't we be trying to encourage more Asian Lesbians to football, I've also noticed there aren't enough tall women attending the gate, most women I've seen at the gate rarely span more than 5ft 6.

And what about the homeless? The porn stars and the local vicars don't get involved either, Bristol City are excluding a huge proportion of football fanatics. Sort it out Steve!

[Maesknoll Red]

For me, promoting "gay rights"

So what rights don't they have, that heterosexuals do?

[Guest annanimo]

So what rights don't they have, that heterosexuals do?

Depends in which country we're talking about. In many parts of the world homosexuality is illegal and in some places officially does not exist.

In Britain, until recently the age of consent was different. Fortunately reasonable argument won out in the end.

Also, until the end of December this year, gay partnerships are not legally recognised, which causes problems in the case of partnerships breaking down or one partner dying.

As discussed on here, despite legal advances, there is still a lot of prejudice and ignorance towards gay people. They have a right not to have to be subjected to this.

In regards women's football, having previously coached Motherwell Ladies I have a modicum of knowledge with which to speak. The BBC did a documentary on us while I was coaching and some gay players at the club obviously thought this was a great way to declare themselves as lesbians and make a big political point about their sexual preference, something which the buffoons making the documentary thought was more important than the football. Unfortunately the "gay issue" is more important in women's football than in men's football. Why? Well, it shouldn't be, because football is about football. But a lot of lesbians seemed to be drawn to football as a way of expressing their sexuality (I suppose in the same way some hetero men like to be "macho"). There is one club in Scotland that in private is proud that it is a "lesbian" club, something I took exception to. Even at my own club we had a small group of lesbians who wanted to turn us into a gay club, and eventually created a very damaging divide between gay and straight.

I have a lot of time for gay people but my overriding view is that sexuality is a private and personal matter and should remain that way. I never declare my own sexuality when applying for jobs, etc., because it's not anyone else's business.

[Wilksi]

what does neo think about all this then???

I would think he would be the perfect person to go on the pitch at half time and talk to everyone about being gay

[City Exile]

It is clearly a diffiuclt and complex issue.

The key point I would suspect is that being Black is pretty self apparent, wheras being gay is not.

On one level I feel I do really not need to know, therefore why the campaign? Its a sort of non-issue. There are many views/beliefs/behavoirs that many footballers have that are non of my concern. What political beliefs they have, whether they are vegeterians, etc etc. Being gay at one level falls under this category for me. A big 'so what'.

Equally, generally the others do not get abuse. 'get up you great big Tory', or 'get stuck in you tree hugging green' are not generally common forms of abuse hurled at players.

Left with the conclusion I think that it would not be a bad thing if a very high profile player came out and said they were gay, one without the other 'baggage' that Fashanu' sadly had. Equally, they would have to be extremmly brave and courageous so to do - which maybe is itself is an admission why there is at least something in this campaign.

[Sir Colby-Tit]

I'd like it if our whole team was gay. They would be impeccably smart on the pitch, keep the dressing room tidy & there would always be a quiche in the oven for Gary.

Besides if they were all "a bit light in the shoe" they would be quicker on the pitch.

I suspect we would have no more stories of fighting in town either.