So What Makes A Good Manager

[Guest ashtonyate]

I have been supporting City for over 50 years the first manager I remember was Pat Beasley, then there were Peter Docherty, Fred Ford,Alan Dicks, right up to todays Gary Johnson. I suppose Dicks has been the most succesfull of the lot he took us to the promise land of league 1.

When I look back I still don't know if its luck or ability Alan Dicks had a few years when he came close to the sack he was lucky to keep his job, but Harry Dolman kept his trust in him.Danny Wilson took Barnsley into the premership having seen him at City I never though he was a great Manager just average really.Ferge at United came very close to the sack but turned things around.

So is it luck or ability or just give people time to do the job if the Chelsea manager had come here and Johnson had gone to chelsea would we be up the top and Chelsea at the bottom of their leagues i wonder.

[nester]

these days it's money because that's how you get the best players and the very top coaches.

[madmax]

I think money help but I also think you need a bit of luck and ability. All top managers would say they had that extra bit of luck in a tight game that they ahd won.

This season we have had our share of bad luck, but things went right the past two games and I feel with that bit of extra 'luck' we would have beaten Bradford.

MM

[Red_Mat]

I have been supporting City for over 50 years the first manager I remember was Pat Beasley, then there were Peter Docherty, Fred Ford,Alan Dicks, right up to todays Gary Johnson. I suppose Dicks has been the most succesfull of the lot he took us to the promise land of league 1.

When I look back I still don't know if its luck or ability Alan Dicks had a few years when he came close to the sack he was lucky to keep his job, but Harry Dolman kept his trust in him.Danny Wilson took Barnsley into the premership having seen him at City I never though he was a great Manager just average really.Ferge at United came very close to the sack but turned things around.

So is it luck or ability or just give people time to do the job if the Chelsea manager had come here and Johnson had gone to chelsea would we be up the top and Chelsea at the bottom of their leagues i wonder.

What are you chatting about?!?!?

There's no such thing as luck for a start. Of course you're more likely to succeed if you've got ability, and the more ability you've got the more successful you'll be. However, yes there are occassionally circumstances' - not luck - which mean a talented manager doesn't succeed. You look at people like Joe Royle at Everton a few years ago.

He'd been very successful at Oldham, but couldn't carry that through at Everton. There were numerous problems which made it too difficult for him.

Everyone keeps going on about 'luck' at the moment - it doesn't exist! If a ball cannons off the wrong side of the post it was because the shot wasn't good enough, rather than bad luck!

[RedUn]

So What Makes A Good Manager, Luck or ability?

Good players.

[North Bristols Cider Army]

I think money help but I also think you need a bit of luck and ability. All top managers would say they had that extra bit of luck in a tight game that they ahd won.

This season we have had our share of bad luck, but things went right the past two games and I feel with that bit of extra 'luck' we would have beaten Bradford.

MM

I agree with MM, I think you need a lot of luck with injuries and suspensions as well as having a lot of ability, you need to be able to motivate your players as well as having money to buy.

I don't think we have had much luck so far this season, but if what they say is true and luck evens ups self up throughout the season, then we are in for one hell of a new year

[Brianred]

I have been supporting City for over 50 years the first manager I remember was Pat Beasley, then there were Peter Docherty, Fred Ford,Alan Dicks, right up to todays Gary Johnson. I suppose Dicks has been the most succesfull of the lot he took us to the promise land of league 1.

When I look back I still don't know if its luck or ability Alan Dicks had a few years when he came close to the sack he was lucky to keep his job, but Harry Dolman kept his trust in him.Danny Wilson took Barnsley into the premership having seen him at City I never though he was a great Manager just average really.Ferge at United came very close to the sack but turned things around.

So is it luck or ability or just give people time to do the job if the Chelsea manager had come here and Johnson had gone to chelsea would we be up the top and Chelsea at the bottom of their leagues i wonder.

Home grown players certainly help. Managers attitude towards his players must be spot on. players who are kept in there playing position. The on and off the field rapport with supporters. Right coaching staff. Chairman with a never ending pocket!

[Chivs]

I don't believe in luck. It is how we treat our experiences that determines whether we succeed or not. Someone who thanks their "good luck" will at a later stage curse their "bad luck". These are just excuses. It isn't an accident that good teams enjoy good luck. If you pepper the oppo goal for 90 minutes eventually one shot will go in. If this happens from a ricochet you may think of this as good luck. I prefer to think that it is inevitable.

As to managers, I occasionally hear that some managers (Eriksson is one) are "lucky". This is nonsense. Good managers enjoy good luck also.

Having said that, I don't believe there are many good managers in the English game. Over the last ten years I would say there have been 3.5 good managers.

These are:

Jose Mourinho - made very small Porto side the Champions League winners but more particularly made Joe Cole a better player. Can anyone name a single player that Ferguson has improved?

Alan Curbishley - keeps unfashionable Charlton in the Premiership with very little outlay

Dario Gradi - the players that have come out of Crewe are unbelievable.

I'm not sure about Wenger. He has improved many players (Henri was an Italian reject when he went to Arsenal) but I don't like his record on discipline.

I tend to think that most teams will benefit from an absent manager.

[Guest BristolOwen]

Having said that, I don't believe there are many good managers in the English game. Over the last ten years I would say there have been 3.5 good managers.

These are:

Jose Mourinho - made very small Porto side the Champions League winners but more particularly made Joe Cole a better player. Can anyone name a single player that Ferguson has improved?

Alan Curbishley - keeps unfashionable Charlton in the Premiership with very little outlay

Dario Gradi - the players that have come out of Crewe are unbelievable.

I'm not sure about Wenger. He has improved many players (Henri was an Italian reject when he went to Arsenal) but I don't like his record on discipline.

Surely you have to count Sam Allardyce as a good manager. A similar sized club to Charlton who are not only doing better in the Premiership but are also holding their own in Europe.

As for your Ferguson quote, I am sure he had a part to play in the development of the likes of the Neville brothers, Scholes, Butt, Beckham and Giggs etc, and for more recent examples, Rooney has improved since joining them, and Cristiano Ronaldo is adding an end product to his talent. I may not like Man Utd, or Ferguson, but how people can say he hasn't improved a single player is unbelievable.

[lotusman]

Luck is a commoduty that by its very nature can run out.In the competitive arena that is football its an ingredient that is nice to be blessed with not necessarily a single specific circumstance but perhaps the timing of an event or simply enjoying the chance to have all your players fit & ready rather than out of action through suspension or injury.

However, even with the worst or best of luck true success is determined by ability.Comparisons of different managers and different clubs become completely subjective,the real equasion is simply are they over-acheiving?Curbishley has been mentioned on this thread and obviously fits that category,however so too did Lennie Lawrence his predecessor in the commencement of the modern Charlton dynasty.

Alan Dicks rode his luck maybe once or twice but was really a perfect fit for our club,to claim he was average is far from the truth,however,it may well be the case that his particular talents suited our situation more so than any other job.Sadly the long line of managers since with perhaps the exception of Terry Cooper have all failed to realise a substantial improvement in our product offering,brief periods of success invariably have then been followed by lengthy periods of being in an aimless wilderness.

After having to endure 9 consecutive defeats I'm sure G.J. does not consider himself "lucky" lets just hope he really is talented with bags of ability.

[Chivs]

Surely you have to count Sam Allardyce as a good manager. A similar sized club to Charlton who are not only doing better in the Premiership but are also holding their own in Europe.

As for your Ferguson quote, I am sure he had a part to play in the development of the likes of the Neville brothers, Scholes, Butt, Beckham and Giggs etc, and for more recent examples, Rooney has improved since joining them, and Cristiano Ronaldo is adding an end product to his talent. I may not like Man Utd, or Ferguson, but how people can say he hasn't improved a single player is unbelievable.

Curbishley has maintained Charlton's position over many years. Allardyce has only improved Bolton in the last couple of years. Mark my words, Allardyce will be a one-season wonder like David Moyes. That is, Allardyce will get fortunate for a season or two and then, like Moyes, his team will start to malfunction. Is this because he is a good manager?

For every Ronaldo you mention for Ferguson, I will reply Cruyff or Sharpe or Poborsky. Given the four players one of them was bound to be a success. That is not because of Ferguson but despite him. His success at United is almost entirely due to the "kids" (you mention some of them). Before the kids arrived on the scene many Utd fans were asking for Ferguson to be sacked. Now the kids are moving on many fans want Ferguson to go with them. His record is second to none in recent years and Ferguson has to be given credit for that but that doesn't make him a good manager.

[Robbored]

Good players,respect, managerial ability and luck certainly helps.

For those of you that don't believe in luck - an opposition shot hits the post and bounces off into your keepers hand and you go on to win 1-0. Next game one of your shots hit the post,hits the 'keeper on the back and creeps over the line and you win 2-1 - luck!.

[Guest Mr Brightside]

respect from the players and knowing how deal with different type of players. if you got money then you'll never prove how good a manager you are because you'll neve be able to show what you could do with what you got.

[Guest ashtonyate]

Good players,respect, managerial ability and luck certainly helps.

For those of you that don't believe in luck - an opposition shot hits the post and bounces off into your keepers hand and you go on to win 1-0. Next game one of your shots hit the post,hits the 'keeper on the back and creeps over the line and you win 2-1 - luck!.

So why have City Performed so badly for so long luck or ability because the club is under performing big time if its luck how do you change it, if its ability surely one of the last 7 managers must have a bit of it as they done ok else where or could it be you go to give them time allthough Wilson had time I just don't know what makes a good manager.

[StapleHillPhil]

For every Ronaldo you mention for Ferguson, I will reply Cruyff or Sharpe or Poborsky.

Or Milne!

Edit - I agree with you that Ferguson has been very fortunate over the last decade. Their and his inevitable decline is something I'll take great pleasure in watching.

[Red_Mat]

Good players,respect, managerial ability and luck certainly helps.

For those of you that don't believe in luck - an opposition shot hits the post and bounces off into your keepers hand and you go on to win 1-0. Next game one of your shots hit the post,hits the 'keeper on the back and creeps over the line and you win 2-1 - luck!.

That's not luck! You're associating one incident with future events, which have no bearing on the original incident. That team could easily go on to lose 5-0, as well as winning 2-1.

It's about whether or not you have the ability to get the shot on target and past the keeper.

I'll agree with the rest, though. Good players, respect and managerial ability - as well as good support from the crowd, backing from the board, money to buy decent players, etc, etc...

[One Team In Keynsham]

Good managerial skills, sound tactics and fitness training, and motivation will go a long way to making a silk purse out of a sow's ear of a squad.

A touch of luck: particularly with injuries. Aston Villa won the league in 1981 using only 14 or so players in a 42 game season. I don't know the depth of their squad, but they must have been blessed that year.

Money helps, but doesn't solve everything: look at the cash that Inter have spunked in recent years without a sniff of Serie A since 1989. Also consider the big name coaches and big name players that have passed through Inter in recent years.

I agree that Chelsea are now able to price everybody else out of the market, but think that their success still has a lot to do with the ability of Mourihno to get his players playing as a team in a system that everybody understands.

And from the names above, I agree with the likes of Big Sam, Curbishley and Gradi as great managers. Gradi, in particular, is a legend.

[Chivs]

Or Milne!

Edit - I agree with you that Ferguson has been very fortunate over the last decade. Their and his inevitable decline is something I'll take great pleasure in watching.

When I was at Uni in Manchester I used to go watch Utd regularly. I like their style of play and have nothing against them as a team. However, the reason I now detest them is that I think their decline is anything but inevitable. They have conspired with the rest of the Premiership and in cahoots with Sky (who used to be major shareholders in Utd) to ensure that the powerful teams stay strong and the rest, such as BCFC, can go hang.

Fortunately people are beginning to see this and are starting to stay away from (yet more boring) Premiership games.

[StapleHillPhil]

When I was at Uni in Manchester I used to go watch Utd regularly. I like their style of play and have nothing against them as a team. However, the reason I now detest them is that I think their decline is anything but inevitable. They have conspired with the rest of the Premiership and in cahoots with Sky (who used to be major shareholders in Utd) to ensure that the powerful teams stay strong and the rest, such as BCFC, can go hang.

Fortunately people are beginning to see this and are starting to stay away from (yet more boring) Premiership games.

I'm with you completely. Although we can all hope, I think the decline will only see them pushed out as far as a UEFA spot but I'm still praying that special agent Glazer will really screw them.

Perhaps you should join in this debate on good old Sir Alex....

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=49705

[Guest weaselfeatures]

I don't believe in luck. It is how we treat our experiences that determines whether we succeed or not. Someone who thanks their "good luck" will at a later stage curse their "bad luck". These are just excuses. It isn't an accident that good teams enjoy good luck. If you pepper the oppo goal for 90 minutes eventually one shot will go in. If this happens from a ricochet you may think of this as good luck. I prefer to think that it is inevitable.

As to managers, I occasionally hear that some managers (Eriksson is one) are "lucky". This is nonsense. Good managers enjoy good luck also.

Having said that, I don't believe there are many good managers in the English game. Over the last ten years I would say there have been 3.5 good managers.

These are:

Jose Mourinho - made very small Porto side the Champions League winners but more particularly made Joe Cole a better player. Can anyone name a single player that Ferguson has improved?

Alan Curbishley - keeps unfashionable Charlton in the Premiership with very little outlay

Dario Gradi - the players that have come out of Crewe are unbelievable.

I'm not sure about Wenger. He has improved many players (Henri was an Italian reject when he went to Arsenal) but I don't like his record on discipline.

I tend to think that most teams will benefit from an absent manager.

What are you talking about

Arsenal finished joint top of the Premiership fair play table last season with Spurs.

Get your facts straight before you post daft statements