Johnsons Critics

[Guest Ivan_is_a_legend]

has johnson done enough to shut up his critics yet?

ok its only two wins in a row, well done boys, but overall they have been playing a lot better for a few weeks.

pick up another few wins over christmas and you never know what might happen.

keep up the good work gary!!!

[Guest RedAlex]

Totally different side in the last 3 games. We are playing at 100 mph and hassling mistakes out of teams. The 2 in midfield are the main difference I can see. Russell and Noble look better and better with every game.

Both were great today at both ends of the pitch.

Well done guys!

[Guest Legend City Man]

I still want Johnson out if we get relegated this season.. 9 straight defeats is POOR and an utter discace, the bloke should thank his lucky stars he's just got two wins to keep the fans happy over xmas, after that its crunch time.. Johnson has come in and upset alot of players by his strict policies (with exception to the Horfield 3 who Johnson dealt with well) and I think there is still unrest in the camp...

[dagest]

I still want Johnson out if we get relegated this season.. 9 straight defeats is POOR and an utter discace, the bloke should thank his lucky stars he's just got two wins to keep the fans happy over xmas, after that its crunch time.. Johnson has come in and upset alot of players by his strict policies (with exception to the Horfield 3 who Johnson dealt with well) and I think there is still unrest in the camp...

You deranged fellow.

[Guest RedAlex]

I still want Johnson out if we get relegated this season.. 9 straight defeats is POOR and an utter discace, the bloke should thank his lucky stars he's just got two wins to keep the fans happy over xmas, after that its crunch time.. Johnson has come in and upset alot of players by his strict policies (with exception to the Horfield 3 who Johnson dealt with well) and I think there is still unrest in the camp...

You must be mental! Honestly???

He has just managed to get his 1st choice team out and managed to impose his self on what was a club in disarray after Tinnion, the man is doing a great job!

9 losses are gone now...2 wins on the trot and we're on the charge.

[Guest Legend City Man]

I still want Johnson out if we get relegated this season.. 9 straight defeats is POOR( FACT..UNLESS YOU ALL THING THAT IS GREAT!) and an utter discrace (FACT..ANY OTHER CLUB AND MANAGER WOULD HAVE BEEN SACKED!), the bloke should thank his lucky stars he's just got two wins (FACT) to keep the fans happy over xmas, after that its crunch time (FACT).. Johnson has come in and upset alot of players (FACT- Stewart, Phillips, Bridges) by his strict policies (with exception to the Horfield 3 who Johnson dealt with well) and I think there is still unrest in the camp (not a fact but never mind!)...

So with all the facts think again before slating this post..

[Alex_BCFC]

I still want Johnson out if we get relegated this season.. 9 straight defeats is POOR( FACT..UNLESS YOU ALL THING THAT IS GREAT!) and an utter discrace (FACT..ANY OTHER CLUB AND MANAGER WOULD HAVE BEEN SACKED!), the bloke should thank his lucky stars he's just got two wins (FACT) to keep the fans happy over xmas, after that its crunch time (FACT).. Johnson has come in and upset alot of players (FACT- Stewart, Phillips, Bridges) by his strict policies (with exception to the Horfield 3 who Johnson dealt with well) and I think there is still unrest in the camp (not a fact but never mind!)...

So with all the facts think again before slating this post..

what is a 'discrace'?

[Guest surreyred]

I still want Johnson out if we get relegated this season.. 9 straight defeats is POOR and an utter discace, the bloke should thank his lucky stars he's just got two wins to keep the fans happy over xmas, after that its crunch time.. Johnson has come in and upset alot of players by his strict policies (with exception to the Horfield 3 who Johnson dealt with well) and I think there is still unrest in the camp...

I really hope this is a wind up !!

If not....

Who do you really want running the team....a strong manager.....or a bunch of "could not care less" players.

The 9 straight defeats were the price that was paid for returning disapline to the club, this will pay us back ten fold in the near future.

[Nibor]

I wouldn't say that I was a Johnson critic, I am a bit of a skeptic though.

What worries me is that our good results have come only after he stopped arsing around with loan signings and demotivating the squad with a constant stream of negative press statements... why did he do those things in the first place and if the going gets tough will he do them again?

Like many others I guess I will wait and see how the team shapes up after January, see whether we stay up, and then decide whether there's much to be optimistic about for the next season.

Nibor

[Guest Legend City Man]

discrace = A word spelt wrong.. But also 9 straight defeats in a row..

[dagest]

I still want Johnson out if we get relegated this season.. 9 straight defeats is POOR( FACT..UNLESS YOU ALL THING THAT IS GREAT!) and an utter discrace (FACT..ANY OTHER CLUB AND MANAGER WOULD HAVE BEEN SACKED!), the bloke should thank his lucky stars he's just got two wins (FACT) to keep the fans happy over xmas, after that its crunch time (FACT).. Johnson has come in and upset alot of players (FACT- Stewart, Phillips, Bridges) by his strict policies (with exception to the Horfield 3 who Johnson dealt with well) and I think there is still unrest in the camp (not a fact but never mind!)...

So with all the facts think again before slating this post..

You are so disturbed that it would be a waste of time submitting a proper response. You're possibly the only City "fan" who is upset tonight. You're obviously either a wind-up merchant or just using the communal PC in the funny farm.

It's time for bed now.

[Guest Legend City Man]

I am a City fan, pleased with todays result of course.. just stil upset about the 9 defeats thats all, give me time my fellow forum freinds and i'l get over the 9 defeats and support Johnson %100. Night

[Robbored]

I have some sympathy for Legend City Man's opinion. The nine defeats left City deep in the relegation mire and even after 6 points from two games City are still deep in the mire.

I agree the last three games have been far better and there are signs of moving up the table but I still can't forgive Johnson for getting City into this mess in the first place with his heavy handed approach.I've said before that there were alternative ways to handle the situation within the club but Johnson chose to wave the big stick which destroyed what confidence there was within the squad and led to 9 consequetive defeats.

It this case the end did not jutify the means.

Mid table mediocraty is the best City can hope for this season which will mean another season in this poxy division.

[richieb]

I have some sympathy for Legend City Man's opinion. The nine defeats left City deep in the relegation mire and even after 6 points from two games City are still deep in the mire.

I agree the last three games have been far better and there are signs of moving up the table but I still can't forgive Johnson for getting City into this mess in the first place with his heavy handed approach.I've said before that there were alternative ways to handle the situation within the club but Johnson chose to wave the big stick which destroyed what confidence there was within the squad and led to 9 consequetive defeats.

It this case the end did not jutify the means.

Mid table mediocraty is the best City can hope for this season which will mean another season in this poxy division.

If GJ has got the desired effect, then the big stick method worked.

The 9 defeats wern't welcome. but this club was in freefall, following an appt of a rookie manager.

Gradually GJ seems to have got many players working to his methods & with a few additions, the depressive run we had will be a minor blip.

It seems to have taken a little while for the 'easy club' that players sunk into to be broken up. And I am sure a few of the big time charlies were hoping for GJ to fall on his sword - he hasn't & the club will be stronger for his desire to rid of the cosy club players.

I have confidence that GJ will move us forward - and if we finish mid table, then that is a good result considering where we could have been if Laycock had got his way !!!!

[Alex_BCFC]

If GJ has got the desired effect, then the big stick method worked.

The 9 defeats wern't welcome. but this club was in freefall, following an appt of a rookie manager.

Gradually GJ seems to have got many players working to his methods & with a few additions, the depressive run we had will be a minor blip.

It seems to have taken a little while for the 'easy club' that players sunk into to be broken up. And I am sure a few of the big time charlies were hoping for GJ to fall on his sword - he hasn't & the club will be stronger for his desire to rid of the cosy club players.

I have confidence that GJ will move us forward - and if we finish mid table, then that is a good result considering where we could have been if Laycock had got his way !!!!

I agree. I really hope we keep on improving. Will shut up the Johnson critics. I think a lot of the things that happened on that 9 game losing streak weren't Johnson's fault and he as forced into bringing a lot of those loan players due to unfortunate circumstances.

[Robbored]

Gradually GJ seems to have got many players working to his methods & with a few additions, the depressive run we had will be a minor blip.

Nine consequetive defeats (a club record) will never be a "a minor blip"

It seems to have taken a little while for the 'easy club' that players sunk into to be broken up. And I am sure a few of the big time charlies were hoping for GJ to fall on his sword - he hasn't & the club will be stronger for his desire to rid of the cosy club players.

The club might be stronger - but a very heavy price has been payed and City won't achieve anything this season because of it.

I have confidence that GJ will move us forward - and if we finish mid table, then that is a good result considering where we could have been if Laycock had got his way !!!!

None of know what would have happened if Tinnion had stayed.We could speculate all day.The bottom line is that City are still second bottom even after two back to back wins.

I too have confidence that Johnson will get City out of the relegation battle but my point is that he should never had got us there in the first place.Even 5 points from those defeats would have put City just 9 points off the play-offs.

[Tales From The Front]

If GJ has got the desired effect, then the big stick method worked.

The 9 defeats wern't welcome. but this club was in freefall, following an appt of a rookie manager.

Gradually GJ seems to have got many players working to his methods & with a few additions, the depressive run we had will be a minor blip.

It seems to have taken a little while for the 'easy club' that players sunk into to be broken up. And I am sure a few of the big time charlies were hoping for GJ to fall on his sword - he hasn't & the club will be stronger for his desire to rid of the cosy club players.

I have confidence that GJ will move us forward - and if we finish mid table, then that is a good result considering where we could have been if Laycock had got his way !!!!

Your'e spot on.

I'll admit before the last three games I was beginning to get twitching, although I have supported GJs appointment and his methods.

The team desperatly needed some discipline and a work ethic that was considerably more than "we are Bristol City we just need to turn up to win" sort of thing. If in the long term the nine match run was the price we had to pay then so be it. We have had one to one meetings with players, missing promotion by a point blah, blah blah.

But I now think the penny has dropped with some of the previously unbelivers in the team and that is that work rate and passion for the shirt is a must, which has now been shown to get results and just as importantly has begun to build bridges with the fans. Hopefully the skill element on top of that will mean we win more than we lose.

For my money the change can be seen no more than in Louis Carey's performances. I have been a big critic but for the first time I'm seeing a guy getting to ball first, winning challanges and dominating the oposistion.

I was ask critics of Gary Johnson to look again at the next game you go to, becuase I'm sure your will see players and fans more up for it than for a long time. And Gary Johnson has to take the credit for that.

[NATCHER]

I still can't forgive Johnson for getting City into this mess in the first place

I think you should look closer to home before laying any blame at Johnsons' door.

[Robbored]

I think you should look closer to home before laying any blame at Johnsons' door.

Ermm ... who was manager that won three from his first four games with an inherited squad and then led the team to 9 consequetive defeats after he had brought in loan players?

[Tales From The Front]

Ermm ... who was manager that won three from his first four games with an inherited squad and then led the team to 9 consequetive defeats after he had brought in loan players?

For god sake Robbored, look at the bigger picture!!!

The status quo, whether you put a Wilson or Tinnion overcoat on was taking the club nowhere. Yes you are right in as much as this season is a right off, in terms of leage placing. But I'll take my chances that Gary Johnson in the long term will take the club upwards. The very least we will see commited players, which the fans can relate to, earning their money and in time playing expansive football.

He is in the process of changing a whole culture at BCFC, something that elements at the club would have hopped he would fail at. But I believe the majority are now buying in to this new ethic and the like of you and I will be the ones to benift from it.

[red man dan]

Come off it,

had the man come in and adopted the correct approach to the players at the start instead of throwing his hand grenades and telling the players they were leaving the club in january, we may have had these kind of results at the start of his reign rather than after 9 defeats in a row that has left us in the relegation zone. This squad is and was capable of good results as soon as he took charge, but he bought in some utter poo loans and totally disrupted the team week in week out. Bradley Orr even said the other day that it hard to get consistency in a team that chops and changes, and now look, the team that is playing well is pretty much the team that Tins left. Out go GJ,s loans and back come the players we already had, and hey presto two wins.

[Alex_BCFC]

Come off it,

had the man come in and adopted the correct approach to the players at the start instead of throwing his hand grenades and telling the players they were leaving the club in january, we may have had these kind of results at the start of his reign rather than after 9 defeats in a row that has left us in the relegation zone. This squad is and was capable of good results as soon as he took charge, but he bought in some utter poo loans and totally disrupted the team week in week out. Bradley Orr even said the other day that it hard to get consistency in a team that chops and changes, and now look, the team that is playing well is pretty much the team that Tins left. Out go GJ,s loans and back come the players we already had, and hey presto two wins.

Not true. He was right in his hand grenade approach after some of the awful performances- Barnet, Oldham, Chesterfield, Notts County etc. What should he have done? Tell them it was all right to lose those sort of games when earning twice as much as the players they were up against? Loans were brought in to cover injuries, twon activities etc. Orr was right- it is hard to get consistency when players fight in town and can't play. The team is playing better- I wouldn't say well. I good team would have beaten Vale 4-0 today. GJ still has a big task on his hands.

[Chappers]

FACT - GJ started well using Tins players

FACT - GJ brought in a number of pointless (Literally) loans, and we lost 9 games in a row

FACT - GJ reverted back to mostly Tins players and we win two in a row

FACT - We were pitiful in 82/83 and still never managed to lose 9 in a row

Take your pick, it was either a Master Plan, or GJ quickly learnt that he mucked up badly. I see Orr was making comments about how much better things are with a settled side. If we see the new GJ, calm and looking to keep a settled side, he will most likely be a success. If he reverts to being the hand-grenade lobbing nutter, chopping and changing things each week, we will probably get relegated.

[Alex_BCFC]

FACT - GJ started well using Tins players

FACT - GJ brought in a number of pointless (Literally) loans, and we lost 9 games in a row

FACT - GJ reverted back to mostly Tins players and we win two in a row

FACT - We were pitiful in 82/83 and still never managed to lose 9 in a row

Take your pick, it was either a Master Plan, or GJ quickly learnt that he mucked up badly. I see Orr was making comments about how much better things are with a settled side. If we see the new GJ, calm and looking to keep a settled side, he will most likely be a success. If he reverts to being the hand-grenade lobbing nutter, chopping and changing things each week, we will probably get relegated.

I disagree with your 2nd 'fact'. Those loans had to come because we had injuries, town incidents and played poorly with 'Tinnion's players' at Barnet, Oldham etc.

[City Exile]

I am still undecided.

I really hope the 'shake it out and rebuild' in years to come will be seen as a turning point. Nine straight losses was quite a price to pay however, and I cannot but feel that a slightly more balanced approach would have seen us do a little better and still get to his desired outcome -and overall the loans seem to have been average.

I will wait somewhat longer before coming down one way or the other. Until then of course he should get our full support - and lets all hope in years to come THIS is finally seen as a real turning point. It could be.

I'm used to the despair. Its the hope that I cannot stand!

[Tales From The Front]

Well I know one thing, players who seeminly applied themselves less than than what is required previously, all of a sudden are fully commited.

You might be right his loan signings to date might have been duffers (I would certianly disagree on Noble who definately looks the part) but if all it achieved was that the comfort zone of always being guaranteed a start was gone, then in my view it achieved a lot.

[NATCHER]

I am still undecided.

That makes two of us, but for some people to come on here and charge Johnson for the mess we're in is loathsome!!!!!!!!!!!!

I still think 90% of the players aren't good enough for getting us out of this league, let alone keeping us out of it.

January will be very interesting to say the least, I just hope it isn't the 10% of "saleable assests"/higher wage earners that are sacrificed to get Johnsons' new regime in........over to you Mr. Lansdown.

[Alex_BCFC]

I still think 90% of the players aren't good enough for getting us out of this league, let alone keeping us out of it.

Agreed, and depsite picking up, the bottom line is that Tinnion has left us with a squad that sin;t good enough in a lot of areas. Players that are good enough IMO to be in top 6 side are: Heywood, Wilkshire, Noble, Brooker, possibly Stewart with service. After that I'm struggling.

[Guest Legend City Man]

I think the sqaud that Tinnion had even without Lita coles and socs was good enough at the start of the season to do someting good.. Wilkshire, Stewart, Bridges, Murry, Carey, Phillips.. no excuses in my opinion we had a good enough sqaud to get promoted this seas, once again has been ruined by off the field activities, poor managment.

[Alex_BCFC]

I think the sqaud that Tinnion had even without Lita coles and socs was good enough at the start of the season to do someting good.. Wilkshire, Stewart, Bridges, Murry, Carey, Phillips.. no excuses in my opinion we had a good enough sqaud to get promoted this seas, once again has been ruined by off the field activities, poor managment.

How can you do well with no left wingers, no holding player, no pace in the side apart from Cotteril. Carey and Murray, depsite improving lately, are no longer players that will get us up in the top 6.

[Guest Legend City Man]

Sotty Alex in my opninion and only my opinion I dontm agree.. I went to the Exeter freindly a week before the Donny match and the tactics and sqaud were perfect and the way we played I thought would put us in good stead for the season.. Stewart was knocking in goals for fun, Bridges passing was amazing, Wilkshire was class, Cotterill excellent.. But what heppend, where did it all go wrong.. We had the nucleus and the swaud for us to do well.. I cant pin-point a single player who at the start of the season I thought wasnt good enough for our sqaud, even Fortune!

[Alex_BCFC]

Sotty Alex in my opninion and only my opinion I dontm agree.. I went to the Exeter freindly a week before the Donny match and the tactics and sqaud were perfect and the way we played I thought would put us in good stead for the season.. Stewart was knocking in goals for fun, Bridges passing was amazing, Wilkshire was class, Cotterill excellent.. But what heppend, where did it all go wrong.. We had the nucleus and the swaud for us to do well.. I cant pin-point a single player who at the start of the season I thought wasnt good enough for our sqaud, even Fortune!

That was Exter. It was a friendly. Has nothing to do with the real thing.

[Guest Legend City Man]

Yes I know that but from watching that game it gave people an idea of how City may have played fro the rest of the season, it gave us hope and the players expectation to play like that..

[Alex_BCFC]

Yes I know that but from watching that game it gave people an idea of how City may have played fro the rest of the season, it gave us hope and the players expectation to play like that..

If you were guided by a friendly against a non league club then you really didn't put much thought into it. I think everyone thought we would be top half because we seemed to have great fire power. But what we didn't realise was that we had poor players in other positions and it wasn't enough. The signing of Stewart and Bridges meant we forgot we missed vital players in other areas.

[Guest Ronmeister]

I wouldn't get too worked up yet, I don't think we'll get relegated by any stretch of the imagination but it's 6 points from 2 games, at the start of the season we would have expected 6 points from these 2 games, and in hindsight all of us have made alot of presumptions in the past. Let's just try and build from here, football is a strange game.

[megansdad]

As I said at the time Johnson was responsible for the run of nine defeats- he chose the side, formation and brought in loan players who did not add anything. Yes he was unlucky with injuries- but so had Tinnion been. The hand grenade stuff was nonsense at the time and anyone who attributes the recent improvement to that should visit their doctor promptly. The improvement is more down to loan players leaving with the exception of Noble, who seems to be the only one that came with real prospect of permanence, the return to fitness of Heywood and Russell and more team spirit. The latter again likely to be more to do with a more settled camp. Interestingly GJ has also started to be more positive about his players- a far more sensible approach.

As he was responsible for the defeats he is also responsible for the last 3 performances 2 of which saw victories so GJ himself showing improvement!!

[Red Robin]

has johnson done enough to shut up his critics yet?

ok its only two wins in a row, well done boys, but overall they have been playing a lot better for a few weeks.

pick up another few wins over christmas and you never know what might happen.

keep up the good work gary!!!

GJ is sorting it, CITY will rise again under his management.

[havanatopia]

has johnson done enough to shut up his critics yet?

ok its only two wins in a row, well done boys, but overall they have been playing a lot better for a few weeks.

pick up another few wins over christmas and you never know what might happen.

keep up the good work gary!!!

we are over a dozen points off play offs so dream on. mid table obscurity would be doing well. very well.

[Irishred]

I have some sympathy for Legend City Man's opinion. The nine defeats left City deep in the relegation mire and even after 6 points from two games City are still deep in the mire.

I agree the last three games have been far better and there are signs of moving up the table but I still can't forgive Johnson for getting City into this mess in the first place with his heavy handed approach.I've said before that there were alternative ways to handle the situation within the club but Johnson chose to wave the big stick which destroyed what confidence there was within the squad and led to 9 consequetive defeats.

It this case the end did not jutify the means.

Mid table mediocraty is the best City can hope for this season which will mean another season in this poxy division.

Common sense I would have thought. Johnson has made a hash of the job so far. He really cannot make another mistake this year. He has used all his credit.

[Atticus]

[Nogbad the Bad]

I have some sympathy for Legend City Man's opinion. The nine defeats left City deep in the relegation mire and even after 6 points from two games City are still deep in the mire.

I agree the last three games have been far better and there are signs of moving up the table but I still can't forgive Johnson for getting City into this mess in the first place with his heavy handed approach.I've said before that there were alternative ways to handle the situation within the club but Johnson chose to wave the big stick which destroyed what confidence there was within the squad and led to 9 consequetive defeats.

It this case the end did not jutify the means.

Mid table mediocraty is the best City can hope for this season which will mean another season in this poxy division.

Just because you've said it before doesn't make it right.

A heavy handed approach and the big stick were absolutely justified after the 'town boy incident' which embarrassed the name of Bristol City across the footballing world. Most fans wanted the cosy dressing room mentality to be destroyed once and for all and Johnson seems to be succeeding in doing this.

It seems by your last comment that you expected Johnson to quickly turn around a passionless and shapeless team, who were one from bottom and being hammered shamefully, into play-off contenders at least.

Most of us considered anything above avoiding relegation would be a bonus and that remains the case.

Sorting out the players who were apparently content to see City ignominiously relegated without a fight was priority number one and we are beginning to reap the rewards. Now there is real hope that a fit and focussed squad showing passion and determination to succeed for Bristol City is being established under a manager who will accept nothing less.

Not before time either, good work GJ.

[Alex_BCFC]

this entire thread is unbelievable. I agree with the quote above me.

After 2 straight wins, everyone is now discarding the last 2 months, thinking " well he needed time to sort the mentality of the team out"?

Rubbish, he came, had a couple of good wins with a Tinnion made squad, then bought in a load of shocking loans which look worse then league 2 standard, lost 9 in a row. But o look, we have won two games on the bounce, with a team that again looks more like a Tinnion inherited squad.

don't get me wrong, i do not think Johnson isnt the man to help us here, but the amount of bum sucking he is getting is stupid, wake up people.

You may disagree but you miss all the points about why the loan signings came in and why other things happened. He did have a couple of good wins under a Tinnion made squad but then we lost to Barnet, Oldham and Chesterfield with mostly his players. The loan signings were brought in to cover injuries, town incidents and general crap play but a lot of the City players. One of the reasons we have started winning is because players like Carey seem to be doing a lot better. Wonder why that is?

[BCFC_Dan]

I've said before that there were alternative ways to handle the situation within the club but Johnson chose to wave the big stick which destroyed what confidence there was within the squad and led to 9 consequetive defeats.

Yes you have. And the point you keep either missing, or stubbornly refusing to see, is that we've tried the other methods before. Wilson tried the soft approach and all he managed to achieve with 4 years and £2m was two 3rd place finishes and a squad that had talent but lacked mental toughness - hence the failures. On top of that, there were some poor player purchases made in terms of attitude and character and those combined with Wilson's willingness to allow the players to drink etc. has led to the problems we have now.

Wilson's soft approach left his successors with no option but to wave the big stick. Tinnion tried but was never going to be in a strong enough position to succeed. Johnson has done better, but still short-sighted City fans are criticising him for it.

If Johnson fails then clearly history will show that he was the wrong man, but right now what he is doing seems to me to be 100% right and to give him anything other than complete backing and confidence is a stupid idea.

[Robbored]

Yes you have. And the point you keep either missing, or stubbornly refusing to see, is that we've tried the other methods before. Wilson tried the soft approach and all he managed to achieve with 4 years and £2m was two 3rd place finishes and a squad that had talent but lacked mental toughness - hence the failures. On top of that, there were some poor player purchases made in terms of attitude and character and those combined with Wilson's willingness to allow the players to drink etc. has led to the problems we have now.

I don't how more times I'll have to make this point! - I accept that the ethos within the players at AG needed to change.

What I have an issue with is the way Johnson went about it.He could have taken more time to implement his own idea's and maybe if a more gradual aproach had been adopted City may not have gone on the dreadfull run of defeats.Even 5 points from those defeats would have put City just 9 points off the play-offs and with something still to play for this season.

Things are looking up after the last three games and two wins and it can be argued that Johnson has got the players seeing things his way at last - but at what price?

Another season in this poxy league - thats the price.

[Milo]

Brian Tinnion's league tally was 6 points from 7 games = 0.86 points per match

Gary Johnson's league tally is 15 points from 13 = 1.15 points per match

I'm surprised that people think that GJ is getting success with BT's players and assuming that he's had no impact on how those players behave on the pitch (and I hope off it too).

It's too early to say with conviction whether GJ's disciplinarian approach was right, but if it means that we can look forward to 100% commitment on the pitch and less players involved in drink related incidents then I'll be happy he put the players through this process. BT tried to instill a disciplinarian style and turfed out players like Coles and Doherty, unfortunately many of the players involved in the recent night club fracas were signed by BT. It might be possible to conclude therefore that it is not individuals that need replacing but the instillation of an entirely new, unquestionably no-nonsense culture. If GJ has been successful in this regard, then 9 straight defeats and a mid-table finish will have been a price worth paying in my opinion as we'll have the foundations for success next term.

[Tales From The Front]

this entire thread is unbelievable. I agree with the quote above me.

After 2 straight wins, everyone is now discarding the last 2 months, thinking " well he needed time to sort the mentality of the team out"?

Rubbish, he came, had a couple of good wins with a Tinnion made squad, then bought in a load of shocking loans which look worse then league 2 standard, lost 9 in a row. But o look, we have won two games on the bounce, with a team that again looks more like a Tinnion inherited squad.

don't get me wrong, i do not think Johnson isnt the man to help us here, but the amount of bum sucking he is getting is stupid, wake up people.

Your post is bang out of order. The way you choose to make your points is ignorant at best and offensive at worst. Have a different view to me by all means but don't think your tub thumping outburst makes your views right becuase it dosen't.

Brsitol City FC's players have been involved in three yes three off the pitch incidents over the last year which have required the involvement of the police and CPS. That irrespective of your view of what is going on the pitch indicates to me at least a extreme lack of discipline. And whilst Tinnion tried his very best he could not get to grips with it. Johnson went in all guns blazing and it's nearly cost him is job. But he has been brave enough to stick to his priciples and in the long term the club will be the better for it. And if it means one more year in this division then so be it.

The only reason all the loans came in in my opinion was to show the full timers that "it is my way all the high way". I agree it has been a high price to pay but it has had to happen. He is not just changing a team selection or formation, Gary Johnson has undertaken a total change of work ethic and culture at the club as instructed to do so by the chairman. It's a pity that not more of the previous managers were not so ready to take action, then may be this debate would not be taking place.

[Robbored]

It might be possible to conclude therefore that it is not individuals that need replacing but the instillation of an entirely new, unquestionably no-nonsense culture. If GJ has been successful in this regard, then 9 straight defeats and a mid-table finish will have been a price worth paying in my opinion as we'll have the foundations for success next term.

Not in my opinion! We'll have agree to disagree on this debate ,Milo....

[Maesknoll Red]

Yes you have. And the point you keep either missing, or stubbornly refusing to see, is that we've tried the other methods before. Wilson tried the soft approach and all he managed to achieve with 4 years and £2m was two 3rd place finishes and a squad that had talent but lacked mental toughness - hence the failures. On top of that, there were some poor player purchases made in terms of attitude and character and those combined with Wilson's willingness to allow the players to drink etc. has led to the problems we have now.

Wilson's soft approach left his successors with no option but to wave the big stick. Tinnion tried but was never going to be in a strong enough position to succeed. Johnson has done better, but still short-sighted City fans are criticising him for it.

If Johnson fails then clearly history will show that he was the wrong man, but right now what he is doing seems to me to be 100% right and to give him anything other than complete backing and confidence is a stupid idea.

Brian Tinnion's league tally was 6 points from 7 games = 0.86 points per match

Gary Johnson's league tally is 15 points from 13 = 1.15 points per match

I'm surprised that people think that GJ is getting success with BT's players and assuming that he's had no impact on how those players behave on the pitch (and I hope off it too).

It's too early to say with conviction whether GJ's disciplinarian approach was right, but if it means that we can look forward to 100% commitment on the pitch and less players involved in drink related incidents then I'll be happy he put the players through this process. BT tried to instill a disciplinarian style and turfed out players like Coles and Doherty, unfortunately many of the players involved in the recent night club fracas were signed by BT. It might be possible to conclude therefore that it is not individuals that need replacing but the instillation of an entirely new, unquestionably no-nonsense culture. If GJ has been successful in this regard, then 9 straight defeats and a mid-table finish will have been a price worth paying in my opinion as we'll have the foundations for success next term.

Dan & Miles certainly have thoughts in common with my own, there undoubtedly was a problem with attitude / professionalism under Wilson. The appointment of Tinnion was always likely to be fraught with difficulties, he had a massive job to lift the club after the poor showing and devestating defeat in Cardiff. To try and erradicate the cosy, player power culture really was a step too far for a rookie, especially one promoted from within the ranks.

Perhaps Johnson's loans, hand grenade and final written warnings were the best and quickest fix for the well being of the club, he obviously wouldn't have wanted that 9 defeat record on his CV, but perhaps the short sharp shock is better than a less effective long term approach.

Unless we are very fortunate with the transfer window, this season will be one of being pleased to finish mid-table, frustrating yes, but if it has removed the soft belly and unprofessionalism that has been rife at this club, then so be it.

[Milo]

Not in my opinion! We'll have agree to disagree on this debate ,Milo....

Maybe we will Robbo..., but not before I have another crack at it!

Presumably it's not the 9 straight defeats that's a problem, but rather the mid-table finish? After all, 9 straight defeats is miserable and embarrassing but ultimately all that matters is where we finish in the league. 11 straight wins and missing out on promotion ultimately cost DW his job, deservedly so in your opinion as I recall. So a winning or losing streak is ultimately not important in itself, it just impacts on the place you finish in the table.

So for you to have the opinion that GJ's disciplinarian approach cost us promotion, you have to believe that he inherited a situation where he was expected to achieve promotion. Personally, I hoped but I didn't expect. GJ arrived with a fifth of the season gone, the team with 7 points and 23rd in the league. The team had rolled over and had its tummy tickled at Swansea. He inherited a team of players heading for relegation and who did not appear to care.

I'll substantiate that comment about how the players appeared not to care. Even before the Night Club debacle there had been other drink related arrests and strong rumours of other incidents that had not led to arrests. While GJ made an excellent start, with comments in the press being full of praise and optimism for the team, he had to deal with this anarchic player behaviour when it landed rudely on his lap. What on earth were those 3 or 4 players doing allegedly getting smashed on our money and getting involved in violent behaviour, especially when we're stuck in a relegation dogfight? When it's backs-against-the-wall time, I expect highly paid professionals to behave like professionals. So if you're GJ, you know about the players' culture and recent history and you wake up to this news, what do you do? Well, I say that you let the players know that it is not acceptable and you make it your first priority to instill discipline and standards.

And that's what I think GJ has done. As the players have been shaken out of their comfort zone (the contact-your-agents-hand-grenade) they have quite understandably gone through a stage of revolting against it. They don't like the treatment and quite frankly they're not supposed to. In my opinion, the run of 9 defeats was triggered by GJ having lost the support of the dressing room and the improved performances over the past 3 games have been as a result of the players realising that with the January transfer window fast approaching they need to get over their dislike of GJ and start securing a future for themselves and their families, whether that's here or elsewhere.

In my opinion, GJ inherited a team that was heading for relegation and a culture of player arrogance that meant that his priority on appointment was to avoid relegation. While we all hoped he'd come in and get us promoted, we should not have expected it. So I re-state that if GJ has succeeded in making our players professional, hard-working and disciplined as a result of his management style, then I'm happy with a mid-table finish this season.

[PhatWill]

Spot on Milo. It's amazing how short-sighted and fickle some of our fans are.

Look at the BIGGER picture Robbored for christs sake.

9 straight defeats and a mid-table finish (from a team that was heading for relegation) for a reinvention of BCFC culture - I and most City fans with a brain would take that.

[BCFC_Dan]

I don't how more times I'll have to make this point! - I accept that the ethos within the players at AG needed to change.

What I have an issue with is the way Johnson went about it.He could have taken more time to implement his own idea's and maybe if a more gradual aproach had been adopted City may not have gone on the dreadfull run of defeats.Even 5 points from those defeats would have put City just 9 points off the play-offs and with something still to play for this season.

Things are looking up after the last three games and two wins and it can be argued that Johnson has got the players seeing things his way at last - but at what price?

Another season in this poxy league - thats the price.

OK, so how would you have done it?

Let's just for the purposes of an exercise, say that you are Gary Johnson and we shall make the assumption that when you arrived you tried talking to the players and reasoning with them, explaining what sort of attitude you expected from them, and the benefit that it would have to the team. They have repaid you by going out on the lash and getting arrested. They clearly have no respect for your authority and barely even acknowledge the things you tell them. They are acting like children.

What do you do? Do you carry on letting them get away with whatever they like and having no respect for their manager or their club, or do you come down hard on them and show them who is the boss?

I know I am making a big assumption in suggesting that Johnson may have already tried reasoning with the players, but you seem to make an equally big assumption that he has not and has simply waded in with his grenades.

[Robbored]

So for you to have the opinion that GJ's disciplinarian approach cost us promotion, you have to believe that he inherited a situation where he was expected to achieve promotion. Personally, I hoped but I didn't expect. GJ arrived with a fifth of the season gone, the team with 7 points and 23rd in the league. The team had rolled over and had its tummy tickled at Swansea. He inherited a team of players heading for relegation and who did not appear to care.

In my opinion, GJ inherited a team that was heading for relegation and a culture of player arrogance that meant that his priority on appointment was to avoid relegation. While we all hoped he'd come in and get us promoted, we should not have expected it. So I re-state that if GJ has succeeded in making our players professional, hard-working and disciplined as a result of his management style, then I'm happy with a mid-table finish this season.

Before the start of the season,almost all us City fans felt that the squad Tinnion had assembled was the best we'd seen at AG for sometime and capable of achieving promotion.Under Tinnion they got of to a bad start culminating in the debacle at Swansea and 6 points from 7 games.There was still time to turn things around.

Johnson takes over the same squad,wins 3 of his first 4 games and we see the signs that we felt were there all along - that Tinnions squad under the right leadership was a very capable squad.

Then after the nightclub affair (which I felt Johnson handled well) the wheels came off.The same players that had been winning were suddenly all at sea, not playing for him and adopting a crap attitude.The question is - why?

I believe that Johnson's OTT heavy handiness led to the poor performances on the pitch and the 9 defeats which have dumped City out of all the cups and left us deep in relegation trouble.

Johnson has now returned to pretty much the same players that were at City before he arrived.In other words the same players that the fans felt were very capable all along - and guess what? things are looking up.

My original point was not that Johnson shouldn't have addressed the difficulties at the club but that he should have gone about in a more subtle fashion over a longer time span.That way City may have picked some points instead of losing so many games and writing off City's season before xmas.

[BB.]

The way I see it, before Johnson turned up, most of the players had no respect for authority and basically did what they wanted, taking the whole Club for a ride while picking up X amount of money a week to fuel their habbits. When Johnson came in and set his stall up, that they have to shape up or ship out and that he isn't messing about, a lot of the players started throwing tantrums because they still wanted to do what they wanted.

Due to these events, we lose 9 games in a row. If Johnson had of backed down we would never of got the situation sorted while Johnson was here as they would have lost even more respect for him because he backed down and the players would of felt that they had won the battle, leading to the the players carrying on in there attitudes.

As it is, I think the manager has won the battle, as the players hopefully now realise that they can't do what they want and Johnson isn't going to back down, no matter how many tantrums they throw. Fair play to Johnson for not backing down, hopefully now the players have given up trying to fight him and actually give him a go!!

I think it takes a lot of determination from Johnson and a lot of patience from the fans to get this Club moving in the right direction, which I think it is now (fingers crossed).

Nine straight defeats was us going through the pain barrier in my opinion. Lets hope we move forward with a proffessional attitude from the players and a bit of respect all round!!

[RedUn]

Before the start of the season,almost all us City fans felt that the squad Tinnion had assembled was the best we'd seen at AG for sometime and capable of achieving promotion.Under Tinnion they got of to a bad start culminating in the debacle at Swansea and 6 points from 7 games.There was still time to turn things around.

Johnson takes over the same squad,wins 3 of his first 4 games and we see the signs that we felt were there all along - that Tinnions squad under the right leadership was a very capable squad.

Then after the nightclub affair (which I felt Johnson handled well) the wheels came off.The same players that had been winning were suddenly all at sea, not playing for him and adopting a crap attitude.The question is - why?

Yes indeed - why were the players incapable of sustaining a professional approach to their preparations for every match? Why could they only manage to deliver that level of professional service for a few games before reverting to type as soon as they were asked to put the hard miles in on the training ground? And why now that a majority of the players have finally seen the light and knuckled-down to the job do some supporters try to delude themselves and others that somehow this could have been achieved with"a more subtle" approach?

I believe that Johnson's OTT heavy handiness led to the poor performances on the pitch and the 9 defeats which have dumped City out of all the cups and left us deep in relegation trouble.

Johnson has now returned to pretty much the same players that were at City before he arrived.In other words the same players that the fans felt were very capable all along - and guess what? things are looking up.

My original point was not that Johnson shouldn't have addressed the difficulties at the club but that he should have gone about in a more subtle fashion over a longer time span.That way City may have picked some points instead of losing so many games and writing off City's season before xmas.

Nonsense! - Johnson said the day he arrived he wanted professional athletes not social players; he said after the victories against Brentford and Barnsley that he felt the level of performance needed to be sustained for much nearer 90 minutes; he even said he wouldn't be celebrating with a drink because he was teetotal!

Given all that I should have thought any player listening would have been able to discern the subtle yet clear message about what was expected of them. Obviously it was too subtle for them because they reacted by going out on the lash during a two-week period of intensive training, just to underline the lack of true character in the dressing room - only then did Johnson throw their grenade back at them. So the next question is why anyone would think that trying to be even more subtle would do any good?!

However, the good news is that a majority of players seem to have stopped listening to the poor examples in the dressing room and have instead bought in to the manager's ethos that nothing comes without hard work.

We have seen the benefit in that BCFC has, of late, been represented by a fitter, hungrier team than at anytime this season and the need now is for supporters to hold to them that level of commitment from now on. In that respect I'm delighted to see that at least representatives of the Supporters Trust hierarchy is up to speed.

[Nibor]

Alot of people can make guesses about what goes on behind the scenes but noone apart from the players and the manager actually knows - everything about attitudes and discipline is speculation. Some people will blame Tinnion, some will blame Johnson, some will blame Lansdown, and some the players but realistically we don't actually know, just like we don't know what would have happened had the board persevered with Wilson or Tinnion. All we know is what we see on the pitch.

The fact of the matter is that after a bright first few games, results and performances on the pitch have been as bad as they could possibly be up until the last couple of weeks.

Now, Johnson did have some obstacles - injuries and fighting in town. But those on their own are not enough to justify 9 straight losses in my mind. Port Vale have been hit harder by injuries than we ever have, does anyone think they'll lose 9 on the bounce? Did they capitulate yesterday or did they keep trying till the end even knowing that they weren't on top?

The loan signings made to cover injuries with the exception of Noble have been poor, although there may not have been many players available. However not all of them were made for that reason. Was Woodman injured when Youga was brought in? Were we completely without two centre backs when we got Sankofa or were Keogh and Carey available? We could have put the loaned cover players on the bench and played our own squad.

The only decent results have been obtained when the first XI contained 8 or 9 players that were part of the squad already, and when we've fielded very similar starting XIs for strings of games rather than chopping and changing.

Did the players need a kick up the arse or a hand grenade, or did they need to be settled?

We'll never really know but I would tend towards the latter, I think one stupid incident in town caused alot of problems. While I applaud the way GJ dealt with the 3 involved, I think the squad as a whole was unsettled by it and his reaction to the resulting poor performances made that far worse.

There has been an improvement recently now that we're settled down and Heywood is back and I hope it continues, if it does then GJ will have no problems because it's the results that matter. Johnson needs to get us comfortably mid table and quickly, especially if he's given resources to use in January. If he shows us consistent hard working performances and there are no more grenades then I will be happy.

Nibor

[Milo]

Before the start of the season,almost all us City fans felt that the squad Tinnion had assembled was the best we'd seen at AG for sometime and capable of achieving promotion.Under Tinnion they got of to a bad start culminating in the debacle at Swansea and 6 points from 7 games.There was still time to turn things around.

Johnson takes over the same squad,wins 3 of his first 4 games and we see the signs that we felt were there all along - that Tinnions squad under the right leadership was a very capable squad.

Then after the nightclub affair (which I felt Johnson handled well) the wheels came off.The same players that had been winning were suddenly all at sea, not playing for him and adopting a crap attitude.The question is - why?

"...suddenly...adopting a crap attitude"? Surely the same attitude that's been evident since the Play-off defeat?

I believe that Johnson's OTT heavy handiness led to the poor performances on the pitch and the 9 defeats which have dumped City out of all the cups and left us deep in relegation trouble.

Johnson has now returned to pretty much the same players that were at City before he arrived.In other words the same players that the fans felt were very capable all along - and guess what? things are looking up.

My original point was not that Johnson shouldn't have addressed the difficulties at the club but that he should have gone about in a more subtle fashion over a longer time span.That way City may have picked some points instead of losing so many games and writing off City's season before xmas.

As BCFC_Dan states, none of us know for sure whether or not GJ had set out initially with dovish tones. I suspect he started with an open-mind and by encouraging players, and the reason I say this is that his comments to the media were generally very upbeat at that time.

But the real point about a manager who expects high standards is that players know not to overstep the mark. I suspect he's achieved that and that he's achieved it in a relatively short time period. In football you don't have the luxury of months and years to change a culture like you do in business. It can take years to change a culture in a business by using lot's of positive change management techniques.

You could argue that in a results-orientated business with highly paid staff on short contracts, the need for mollycoddling is lower down the priorities than ensuring the right standards are in place. If the current players don't wish to accept the new culture, then they can move on or be moved. Yes, that's a tough management style but these employees are being paid an average £100,000 a year out of our pockets so they're overly-compensated for this lifestyle.

[KnowleUtd City]

Robbored - you say that almost all of us thought that the squad that tinnion had assembled was the strongest seen for sometime, speak for yourself mate, the signing of Marcus Stewart and Michael Bridges got everyone excited and masked the fact that we had no left back of sorts, no left sided midfielder (tinnion signed Grant Smith despite him playing centre midfield for Swindon) and no true replacements for Danny Coles or Tommy Doherty, the start of the season was woeful and Johnson inherited a side/squad which was very very poor, you seem to think that becasue he won his first two games (one against a p1ss poor barnsley side) it is down to him that we lost nine games is a row. get off the blokes back, he's got a hell of a job on his hands, he'll need time and support from the board and us.

[RedUn]

... I think one stupid incident in town caused alot of problems.

Only one incident? ...and are we sure we're talking only about those who've been caught?

In the past couple of years we've had Lita arrested (with no subsequent charges), Coles arrested, Partridge, Brown & Orr arrested - all of which gives credence to my mind of the stories here and elsewhere of what many of our players been getting up to over the years.

Name me another club that's got that sort of record of self-indulgence among its players and I'll show you a bunch of losers, name me another one that has also achieved as little as our lot out there on the park and I'll show my backside on BCFC World!

As BCFC_Dan pointed out earlier in this thread, other managers chose a kid-gloves policy (wih players they themselves signed) but all to no avail - Johnson gave them a chance to respond but grasped the nettle firmly when they reverted to their nonsense. Far better that than yet more years of the players' tail wagging the managerial dog.

[Nibor]

Only one incident? ...and are we sure we're talking only about those who've been caught?

In the past couple of years we've had Lita arrested (with no subsequent charges), Coles arrested, Partridge, Brown & Orr arrested - all of which gives credence to my mind of the stories here and elsewhere of what many of our players been getting up to over the years.

Name me another club that's got that sort of record of self-indulgence among its players and I'll show you a bunch of losers, name me another one that has also achieved as little as our lot out there on the park and I'll show my backside on BCFC World!

As BCFC_Dan pointed out earlier in this thread, other managers chose a kid-gloves policy (wih players they themselves signed) but all to no avail - Johnson gave them a chance to respond but grasped the nettle firmly when they reverted to their nonsense. Far better that than yet more years of the players' tail wagging the managerial dog.

I'm talking specifically about this season and Johnson's tenure since that is what the thread is about. Tinnion didn't use kid gloves and I supported him for it.

Johnson dealt with the players involved in the incident flawlessly IMO, and in fact of the 4 involved, 3 of them have been among our better performers since effort wise.

However I think the disruption caused by the incident affected the whole team, and performances suffered, and Johnson dealt with this wrong.

In any management situation where you are dealing with a problem you have to deal with individuals or you will only get negative results. Noone who is trying hard will respond well to getting a shoe in the arse because some of his colleagues aren't.

I think telling the whole team to contact their agents because they were all available was a massive factor in our 9 game run of defeats.

Nibor

[Robbored]

Johnson dealt with the players involved in the incident flawlessly IMO, and in fact of the 4 involved, 3 of them have been among our better performers since effort wise.

However I think the disruption caused by the incident affected the whole team, and performances suffered, and Johnson dealt with this wrong.

In any management situation where you are dealing with a problem you have to deal with individuals or you will only get negative results. Noone who is trying hard will respond well to getting a shoe in the arse because some of his colleagues aren't.

I think telling the whole team to contact their agents because they were all available was a massive factor in our 9 game run of defeats.

Nibor

I quite agree - I'm glad to see that mine is not an isolated opinion...

[RedUn]

I'm talking specifically about this season and Johnson's tenure since that is what the thread is about. Tinnion didn't use kid gloves and I supported him for it.

Johnson dealt with the players involved in the incident flawlessly IMO, and in fact of the 4 involved, 3 of them have been among our better performers since effort wise.

Which is why I talk in terms of those caught. The sad fact is that those of Tinnion's signings who were caught this season are paying the price for a problem that had been allowed to fester for years. (It also proves how useless we have been at vetting the character of players we've signed) ...

However I think the disruption caused by the incident affected the whole team, and performances suffered, and Johnson dealt with this wrong.

In any management situation where you are dealing with a problem you have to deal with individuals or you will only get negative results. Noone who is trying hard will respond well to getting a shoe in the arse because some of his colleagues aren't.

I think telling the whole team to contact their agents because they were all available was a massive factor in our 9 game run of defeats.

... which is why there was no peer pressure within the squad itself to prevent players pratting around, leaving the manager little choice but to deal with all equally and see who responded positively and who sulked.

From what I've seen lately, it could just be that some of them have woken up to their responsibilities; hopefully, they will go on to become his (our) lieutenant's keeping future behaviours in line with what professional athletes should be doing.

[Nibor]

... which is why there was no peer pressure within the squad itself to prevent players pratting around, leaving the manager little choice but to deal with all equally and see who responded positively and who sulked.

You will never ever ever get a team to respond by rollocking the players doing well alongside those who aren't.

The only time you should do this is if the whole team is underperforming and even then it's more effective to deal with people one to one.

The reasoning is very simple.

You demand a standard of a team, you expect them to live up to it. Those who don't get dealt with and everyone can see they do. Those who by far exceed it get recognised, and everyone can see they do.

This reinforces positive behaviour and discourages people from slacking. It's fair; it gains the manager respect, it makes the players play for him, and it brings those who are not up to standard into sharp focus - they either shape up quickly or ship out.

Rollocking the entire team might discourage people who are messing about, more likely they will ignore it since it's not directed at them personally so usually they will assume it's someone else (someone who's letting the team down usually has a certain amount of this type of arrogance). Getting grief because others aren't pulling their weight is 100% guaranteed to discourage those who are already trying hard.

This is one of the fundamental basics of managing people, it's tried and tested.

Peer pressure does not ever come into existence in the way you suggest, it's a common error to try and introduce it. It happens on it's own when a team set themselves high standards and are used to living up to them, and feel someone is letting them down.

Nibor

[LSR]

I still want Johnson out if we get relegated this season.. 9 straight defeats is POOR and an utter discace, the bloke should thank his lucky stars he's just got two wins to keep the fans happy over xmas, after that its crunch time.. Johnson has come in and upset alot of players by his strict policies (with exception to the Horfield 3 who Johnson dealt with well) and I think there is still unrest in the camp...

geeze hellooooooooooo here we go again,

[RedUn]

You will never ever ever get a team to respond by rollocking the players doing well alongside those who aren't.

The only time you should do this is if the whole team is underperforming and even then it's more effective to deal with people one to one.

The reasoning is very simple.

You demand a standard of a team, you expect them to live up to it. Those who don't get dealt with and everyone can see they do. Those who by far exceed it get recognised, and everyone can see they do.

This reinforces positive behaviour and discourages people from slacking. It's fair; it gains the manager respect, it makes the players play for him, and it brings those who are not up to standard into sharp focus - they either shape up quickly or ship out.

Rollocking the entire team might discourage people who are messing about, more likely they will ignore it since it's not directed at them personally so usually they will assume it's someone else (someone who's letting the team down usually has a certain amount of this type of arrogance).

... alternatively, those who are messing about expose themselves by saying or doing something out of turn in response to the group rollicking. Only when problems are thrown into such sharp focus do the squad's followers start to question whether their collective is being well-served by those they look to for an example.

Getting grief because others aren't pulling their weight is 100% guaranteed to discourage those who are already trying hard.

This is one of the fundamental basics of managing people, it's tried and tested.

Peer pressure does not ever come into existence in the way you suggest, it's a common error to try and introduce it. It happens on it's own when a team set themselves high standards and are used to living up to them, and feel someone is letting them down.

The way I've consistently suggested bringing peer pressure into existence is to take care not to keep signing jack-the-lad types in the first place. Leadership on the field has been sorely lacking for years and most of the social leaders off it have only served to lead their colleagues astray.

[Guest surreyred]

You will never ever ever get a team to respond by rollocking the players doing well alongside those who aren't.

The only time you should do this is if the whole team is underperforming and even then it's more effective to deal with people one to one.

The reasoning is very simple.

You demand a standard of a team, you expect them to live up to it. Those who don't get dealt with and everyone can see they do. Those who by far exceed it get recognised, and everyone can see they do.

This reinforces positive behaviour and discourages people from slacking. It's fair; it gains the manager respect, it makes the players play for him, and it brings those who are not up to standard into sharp focus - they either shape up quickly or ship out.

Rollocking the entire team might discourage people who are messing about, more likely they will ignore it since it's not directed at them personally so usually they will assume it's someone else (someone who's letting the team down usually has a certain amount of this type of arrogance). Getting grief because others aren't pulling their weight is 100% guaranteed to discourage those who are already trying hard.

This is one of the fundamental basics of managing people, it's tried and tested.

Peer pressure does not ever come into existence in the way you suggest, it's a common error to try and introduce it. It happens on it's own when a team set themselves high standards and are used to living up to them, and feel someone is letting them down.

Nibor

GJ might have refered to "the team" when talking in public about the lack of effort and results, i am sure in private he spoke directly to the inderviduals he felt was letting the team down.

A corner stone of the management of any team is collective responsibility, which is eaxctly what was going on here, whether the players liked it or not.

Also the main point you miss is that of a managers credability. GJ could not pat the players on the head and tell them how well they were doing when they were clearly not performing for the sake of an easy ride at the start of his job, and then expect to be able to excert any authority at a later time. The players would assume he did not mean it.

He had to deal with the problems there and then if he wanted to get the palyers to work in his way in the future.

[Nibor]

... alternatively, those who are messing about expose themselves by saying or doing something out of turn in response to the group rollicking. Only when problems are thrown into such sharp focus do the squad's followers start to question whether their collective is being well-served by those they look to for an example.

Unfortunately this doesn't happen. The reason group rollickings don't work is because the people in the group who don't deserve the rollicking will feel wronged and that's all they'll remember. More importantly they'll feel wronged by the manager, rather than by the people letting the team down, and that's where there anger will be directed. Probably encouraged by those bad influences as well. Then you get even more bad performances. It's a common error to deal with problems in this manner.

Deal with the bad influences individually and the players who are doing nothing wrong will be glad the idiots have got their just deserts, or at least realise who they are and why they are considered idiots if they didn't already.

The way I've consistently suggested bringing peer pressure into existence is to take care not to keep signing jack-the-lad types in the first place. Leadership on the field has been sorely lacking for years and most of the social leaders off it have only served to lead their colleagues astray.

I agree, and in this respect I think GJ will do us proud. He does seem to like a work ethic.

All I'm saying is he made a pretty big blunder and I hope he doesn't repeat it... if the group rollicking strategy worked then explain the run of defeats?

I'd say it failed big time and the run of defeats showed that. The corner was only turned after the team settled again and the blame game in the media stopped.

Nibor

GJ might have refered to "the team" when talking in public about the lack of effort and results, i am sure in private he spoke directly to the inderviduals he felt was letting the team down.

He said publicly he dropped a hand grenade in the dressing room. The resultant strong rumour was that he'd told everyone to talk to their agents because they were all available.

A corner stone of the management of any team is collective responsibility, which is eaxctly what was going on here, whether the players liked it or not.

A good team takes collective responsibility. You don't make a team into a good one by forcing it on them.

Also the main point you miss is that of a managers credability. GJ could not pat the players on the head and tell them how well they were doing when they were clearly not performing for the sake of an easy ride at the start of his job, and then expect to be able to excert any authority at a later time. The players would assume he did not mean it.

I'm not suggesting he pat them on the head. I'm suggesting he give the players who are the problem, and ONLY those ones, the biggest rocket of their lives. A manager who unfairly blames people who have done nothing wrong will have zero credibility in the eyes of the team and that's where it matters.

He had to deal with the problems there and then if he wanted to get the palyers to work in his way in the future.

Yes but he didn't have to deal with the players who weren't problems.

Nibor

[BCFC_Dan]

Yes but he didn't have to deal with the players who weren't problems.

Perhaps he didn't think there were any.

[Nibor]

Perhaps he didn't think there were any.

In which case his method was correct and his judgement was well faulty

Nibor

[Guest surreyred]

Unfortunately this doesn't happen. The reason group rollickings don't work is because the people in the group who don't deserve the rollicking will feel wronged and that's all they'll remember. More importantly they'll feel wronged by the manager, rather than by the people letting the team down, and that's where there anger will be directed. Probably encouraged by those bad influences as well. Then you get even more bad performances. It's a common error to deal with problems in this manner.

Deal with the bad influences individually and the players who are doing nothing wrong will be glad the idiots have got their just deserts, or at least realise who they are and why they are considered idiots if they didn't already.

I agree, and in this respect I think GJ will do us proud. He does seem to like a work ethic.

All I'm saying is he made a pretty big blunder and I hope he doesn't repeat it... if the group rollicking strategy worked then explain the run of defeats?

I'd say it failed big time and the run of defeats showed that. The corner was only turned after the team settled again and the blame game in the media stopped.

Nibor

He said publicly he dropped a hand grenade in the dressing room. The resultant strong rumour was that he'd told everyone to talk to their agents because they were all available.

A good team takes collective responsibility. You don't make a team into a good one by forcing it on them.

I'm not suggesting he pat them on the head. I'm suggesting he give the players who are the problem, and ONLY those ones, the biggest rocket of their lives. A manager who unfairly blames people who have done nothing wrong will have zero credibility in the eyes of the team and that's where it matters.

Yes but he didn't have to deal with the players who weren't problems.

But by looking at the performances over the last four games collective responsibility has now arrived within the team.

I am not sure this would have occured had GJ not demonstrated his intention not to back down.

Nibor

[Nibor]

I think if he'd done things individually without demotivating the players who were already performing we would have had it sooner and without 9 defeats.

You can demonstrate your resolve by consistently disciplining those who continue to step out of line and rewarding those who work hard. It produces better results but is far more demanding than an across the board swipe at people, which is why so many managers opt for the latter. (And is why management in most industries in this country is well below the standard it should be).

Nibor