Natural Ability V Hard Work And Determination.

[surreyred]

When i joined this forum i made a promise to myself that i would not comment on indervidual players because i do not get to see sufficent games to be able to comment.

After seeing the abuse some people have given Bas SAVAGE on this forum, i am going to break that promise.

We all admire the players with great god given natural ability, who find this games of ours easy, at even the highest level. The George BEST's of this world who set the standard of what can be achived.

But are they to be admired more than a player who has less natural ability but makes it to the top of the game through hard work, determination and the single mindedness to achive what ever it takes. The Roy KEANES of this world.

Is the man who is born to wealth and status to be admired more than the man who is born with nothing, but gets to the top by is own hard work.

At our club, at the moment, possibly the most naturally gifted player is Luke WILKSHIRE. He has scored some great goals for us, and created just as many. But on a cold winters night away from home, it is not unknown for him to go missing.

Bas SAVAGE possibly does not come close to LW in terms of natural ability but, if the reports on the Vale game are to belived, makes up for that in effort and determination. He comes across as the sort of player who will not hide when the going gets tuff, and will make the most of limited natural ability.

Of course good teams will have a mixture of both the naturally gifted and hard working players, but if i had to choose between the player who gets to the top by gods gifts or his own hard work, ill take the worker every time.

To the poster who stated "Bas SAVAGE is not the answer"......Well if the question is will he help keep us in this division ????.........the answer could well be......yes he is !

[tompo]

[Robbored]

I think people who criticise players for poor distribution skills, heading ability etc are missing an important point. Players like this are probably playing at their right level and if they were as good as some fans would like them to be then they would (and should) probably be playing at a higher level anyway.

In some respects that fair comment.We do have to remember at what level these players are at.That said, baisc skills like passing the ball to a teamate,keeping the ball in play and positional sense are fundimental skills that all professional footballers should have.The better players have the most important thing ofall - vision and the ability to use it.

Stewart and Wilkshire are the only two proper footballers at City currently.Look how at the start of the season Stewart was playing lovely little passes through' to Brooker who simply didn't anticipate them.Its a bit better now but the class of Stewart and Wilkshire still stands out every game that they play.

A player can have all the stamina,strength and passion in the world, but if he doesn't have natural ability he'll be playing park football.

[Guest Harry Dolman]

In some respects that fair comment.We do have to remember at what level these players are at.That said, baisc skills like passing the ball to a teamate,keeping the ball in play and positional sense are fundimental skills that all professional footballers should have.The better players have the most important thing ofall - vision and the ability to use it.

Stewart and Wilkshire are the only two proper footballers at City currently.Look how at the start of the season Stewart was playing lovely little passes through' to Brooker who simply didn't anticipate them.Its a bit better now but the class of Stewart and Wilkshire still stands out every game that they play.

A player can have all the stamina,strength and passion in the world, but if he doesn't have natural ability he'll be playing park football.

I don't really buy the "player X is too good for his team mates" malarky. When Merson plays well, Walsall play well & Merson is/was a far greater talent than either Stewart or Wilkshire.

I think we all have a preference for a certain "type" of player - some like the 100% give everything of say Shaun Taylor (an appalling footballer in many ways, but also an outstanding player for us & other clubs), others prefer the skills of, say Wilkshire. People who prefer the skillful type player will wax lyrical about "Jacki" as an all time City great, when in truth he didn't actually play that much for us (but did produce some sublime displays).

The other interesting thing is perception. I am not especially pro or anti Marcus Stewart, however if he didn't have such a good pedigree would so many people be posting about the great runs he makes that aren't picked up, the passes he plays that aren't read. Or would they just say he tries hard, is slow & doesn't score enough. What I mean is are some people (me included) a bit "brainwashed" due to his past - if he was a "nobody" - would we hurl more abuse at him for getting caught offside so often ?? Would we say the passes were just bad, not mis-read by incompetent team mates ??

[milo1111]

good post. personally i think bas could become a bit of a cult hero. stewart and brooker are my first choice duo, but i really think old bas is a useful asset. a plan B if you like, just like beadle did a few years ago if things werent going well.

in terms of natural ability versus hard work, there is room for both, thas what makes the game so interesting and full of contrast. in the lower divisions the hard working teams tend to fair better. thats why we didnt get promoted under danny wilson despite the fact we had the most talented squad by a mile :@

[nester]

Bas Savage could become another Wayne Allison. It's nice to watch skillful players but when they aren't prepared to get stuck in they might as well give the shirt to someone whose willing to give it all they've got. I'm hoping GJ will make something of Bas Savage.

[SimplyRed]

I think people who criticise players for poor distribution skills, heading ability etc are missing an important point. Players like this are probably playing at their right level and if they were as good as some fans would like them to be then they would (and should) probably be playing at a higher level anyway.

That sounds a reasonable point to make.

However, if you only play players that are playing at their right level, they aren't likely to get you out of the league, or sustain if you do, are they?

Besides, I don't think Savage is playing at his 'right level' - his career record is enough to tell you that.

To be 23 years of age and have less than 30 total professional appearances says it all.

One might argue that opportunities, injuries and pure bad luck has kept him out, but I would say that seven years to prove oneself is ample time to show whether you have a career in the professional game - injuries or not.

Nobody has argued that Savage has ability - most admit he doesn't - but some fans are so desperate to see someone playing with their heart, instead of their head, that he's a bit of a hero right now.

I agree with Robbored, at our level we should expect EVERY player to have basic professional football skills. What separates our level from those above us is not ability, but pace, speed of thought and vision.

It is obvious to me that Savage does not possess a complete set of basic skills and the fact that we, as a club, have signed him, is one of the biggest reasons I still have grave doubts about Johnson's credentials as a successful manager.

Bristol City should not even be considering signing players like Savage, let alone playing them, and he is living proof of how low we've sunk as a club and how low our expectations, as fans, have dropped.

[Guest The Codfather 0312]

This is a good question. What would you choose a player who had natural abillity but is as lazy as Ricky Tomlinson or a player who is not natrually gifted but gave 110% effort every game?

[Alex_BCFC]

That sounds a reasonable point to make.

However, if you only play players that are playing at their right level, they aren't likely to get you out of the league, or sustain if you do, are they?

Besides, I don't think Savage is playing at his 'right level' - his career record is enough to tell you that.

To be 23 years of age and have less than 30 total professional appearances says it all.

One might argue that opportunities, injuries and pure bad luck has kept him out, but I would say that seven years to prove oneself is ample time to show whether you have a career in the professional game - injuries or not.

Nobody has argued that Savage has ability - most admit he doesn't - but some fans are so desperate to see someone playing with their heart, instead of their head, that he's a bit of a hero right now.

I agree with Robbored, at our level we should expect EVERY player to have basic professional football skills. What separates our level from those above us is not ability, but pace, speed of thought and vision.

It is obvious to me that Savage does not possess a complete set of basic skills and the fact that we, as a club, have signed him, is one of the biggest reasons I still have grave doubts about Johnson's credentials as a successful manager.

Bristol City should not even be considering signing players like Savage, let alone playing them, and he is living proof of how low we've sunk as a club and how low our expectations, as fans, have dropped.

That's probably the first thing I've ever agreed with you on. He isn't good enough. One reasonable game against a very understrength Port Vale side does not mean he is anywhere near good enough.

[B-Rizzle]

[Sim]

I think that there is a role for a big powerful target man (who creates a lot, but doesn't finish all that many themselves) in the Crouch/Hesky role and if you have someone like that playing with a predatory striker (someone who will bag 25 goals plus in a season) then always have a good chance to win a game.

However, to be at the top of the table, this only works throughout the season if the defence is absolutely solid, or the midfielders contribute a fair spread of goals to compensate.

Some games suit the target man approach more than others (mostly away, against hard physical teams) and the relief of pressure for a big man to hold the ball up in the final third is a very underestimated asset. How many times for instance have you been holding your breath in the last ten minutes when City just can't get the ball clear and we're suffering wave after wave of attack?

I like the commitment and passion of Bas, I would like to see more of him as that appoach may not win promotion over a season, but I think it will definitely help us out of the relegation zone. Replacing him after an hour or so for MS is a good option after Bas has ragged the defence.

We all know that an in form MS would deny him a start, but with things as they are, I would like to see him start at Gillingham.

[Tunley Legend]

In some respects that fair comment.We do have to remember at what level these players are at.That said, baisc skills like passing the ball to a teamate,keeping the ball in play and positional sense are fundimental skills that all professional footballers should have.The better players have the most important thing ofall - vision and the ability to use it.

Stewart and Wilkshire are the only two proper footballers at City currently.Look how at the start of the season Stewart was playing lovely little passes through' to Brooker who simply didn't anticipate them.Its a bit better now but the class of Stewart and Wilkshire still stands out every game that they play.

A player can have all the stamina,strength and passion in the world, but if he doesn't have natural ability he'll be playing park football.

Wilkshire is an excellent player - on the occasions he is not hiding and allowing the opposition to over-run the other poor bloke playing alongside him - Chesterfield at Home and Doncaster second half Away are the two recent examples that come to mind. The really top players COMBINE talent and hard work. ALL professionals should have passion otherwise they are basically taking the fans for a ride - especially if they happen to be talented as well.

[Bristol Boy]

But are they to be admired more than a player who has less natural ability but makes it to the top of the game through hard work, determination and the single mindedness to achive what ever it takes. The Roy KEANES of this world.

Don't underestimate Keanos' talent.I agree that he puts the effort in and that helped him become outstanding, it's not the reason.The same could be said of Kevin Keegan

At our club, at the moment, possibly the most naturally gifted player is Luke WILKSHIRE. He has scored some great goals for us, and created just as many. But on a cold winters night away from home, it is not unknown for him to go missing.

It doesn't have to be cold if he's wide on the left

Bas SAVAGE possibly does not come close to LW in terms of natural ability but, if the reports on the Vale game are to belived, makes up for that in effort and determination. He comes across as the sort of player who will not hide when the going gets tuff, and will make the most of limited natural ability.

Of course good teams will have a mixture of both the naturally gifted and hard working players, but if i had to choose between the player who gets to the top by gods gifts or his own hard work, ill take the worker every time.

To the poster who stated "Bas SAVAGE is not the answer"......Well if the question is will he help keep us in this division ????.........the answer could well be......yes he is !

Savage has a decent first touch & control for a bloke of 6' 4" and has reasonable pace.His work rate and movement is good and he doesn't shirk responsibility.He made a coupe of runs at defenders on Saturday and did OK in the air at both ends of the field.

As I've said, long term I don't think that either BS or MS will be part of GJ's first choice strike partnership and, if Aggogo or similar signed tomorrow, he's partner Brooker at Gillingham.

That said, baisc skills like passing the ball to a teamate,keeping the ball in play and positional sense are fundimental skills that all professional footballers should have.

Savage has those skills.He doesn't hoof it or give it away (Orr & Heywood) on what I've seen

The better players have the most important thing ofall - vision and the ability to use it.

Stewart and Wilkshire are the only two proper footballers at City currently.Look how at the start of the season Stewart was playing lovely little passes through' to Brooker who simply didn't anticipate them.Its a bit better now but the class of Stewart and Wilkshire still stands out every game that they play.

A player can have all the stamina,strength and passion in the world, but if he doesn't have natural ability he'll be playing park football.

I agree but both have been inconsistent this season, Wilkshire's ineffective away and Stewart is a world away from how effective I thought he'd be at this level.

If you remember, BT partnered MS & MB and left Brooker out of his initial starting line up.How mad's that

Tommy had the skill and the vision, but can't get fit enough to play 15 games a season, so what use is that and he was missing for QPR again last night.

[Dorset_Cider]

In some respects that fair comment.We do have to remember at what level these players are at.That said, baisc skills like passing the ball to a teamate,keeping the ball in play and positional sense are fundimental skills that all professional footballers should have.The better players have the most important thing ofall - vision and the ability to use it.

Stewart and Wilkshire are the only two proper footballers at City currently.Look how at the start of the season Stewart was playing lovely little passes through' to Brooker who simply didn't anticipate them.Its a bit better now but the class of Stewart and Wilkshire still stands out every game that they play.

A player can have all the stamina,strength and passion in the world, but if he doesn't have natural ability he'll be playing park football.

You are only as good as your weakest link or player in our case....... the same can be said for music and bands but in that case you don't have to be a virtuoso to play a good tune?

It's the same old problem........... but as with music you need to be consistent and even if you are not the greatest player in the world ...... you do need to be consistent

I remember the days well....... I've played in bands for many years at a good level of musicianship...... I only ever judged myself on whether I had a good gig or bad........ but the judgement was mine only ..... I knew I was consistent and that the crowd would not have noticed as much....... due to being consistent the performance was always at an acceptable level.............. if you get meh

[RedUn]

If you remember, BT partnered MS & MB and left Brooker out of his initial starting line up. How mad's that

Errrm, Brooker was injured for much of pre-season.

[Dorset_Cider]

Errrm, Brooker was injured for much of pre-season.

Bloody know all Mick

[RedTop]

Bristol City should not even be considering signing players like Savage, let alone playing them, and he is living proof of how low we've sunk as a club and how low our expectations, as fans, have dropped.

Sorry, I have to disagree with this. Some people seem blinded by the fact that he's been rejected by teams in a lower division - this 'we're too good for him' attitude. With respect, how he's played for other teams means bugger all. All that matters is the performances he's putting in in a City shirt. And they have been far stronger performances than many of the other 'star' performers. I've seen every game Bas has played in except for the Port Vale game, and there is no way anyone could convince me he was one of the weaker players in our team at the moment. You might wish he was, but he ain't. The fact that GJ can see something in a player like Savage that will serve our purpose and get it for nowt, instead of the over-inflated transfer fees, agent fees, signing on fees and salaries that our club has indulged itself in (with our blessing) for the past decade is a plus, not a minus.

If Savage is not good enough for us and still manages to come joint top in the player ratings when ranked by fans who attended the Port Vale match, what does that say about others like Murray on far higher salaries and who cost us more to sign?

Get off the lad's back. He's giving 100 per cent and he's doing a job for us. It's not his fault he's being picked ahead of other players. If you're unhappy that he's in the team and you feel you must have a pop, try having a go at the fat-salary players with supposedly far more natural talent who still can't put in the performances to dislodge him.

I was amazed at Doncaster to hear some of the vitriol thrown at Basso, real nasty abuse about ######ing off back to the non-league where he belonged etc. Well, I can't speak for the Vale game because I wasn't there, but up until that moment he'd not put a foot wrong and was proving himself a real find by GJ.

I fear there are some football snobs among us who won't rate anyone unless we had to pay big bucks for them and are paying them a fortune. Well, those high-paid so-called 'stars' have under-achieved for years and landed us in the you know what. If they don't want to play when the going gets tough, and bargain basement players like Savage and Basso can do better, then I'll tell you who gets my contempt and who gets my support.

[PhatWill]

To be 23 years of age and have less than 30 total professional appearances says it all.

How many career appearances (admittedly at a much higher level) had Ian Wright made at 23 years old then smart a***??

Such a mug you are. Why don't you travel away to watch City and then make comment?

'Says it all', cheeky little bugger you are - Bas Savage has ability, if you say otherwise then you either haven't seen him play or own a guide dog...

[SimplyRed]

Sorry, I have to disagree with this. Some people seem blinded by the fact that he's been rejected by teams in a lower division - this 'we're too good for him' attitude. With respect, how he's played for other teams means bugger all. All that matters is the performances he's putting in in a City shirt. And they have been far stronger performances than many of the other 'star' performers. I've seen every game Bas has played in except for the Port Vale game, and there is no way anyone could convince me he was one of the weaker players in our team at the moment. You might wish he was, but he ain't. The fact that GJ can see something in a player like Savage that will serve our purpose and get it for nowt, instead of the over-inflated transfer fees, agent fees, signing on fees and salaries that our club has indulged itself in (with our blessing) for the past decade is a plus, not a minus.

If Savage is not good enough for us and still manages to come joint top in the player ratings when ranked by fans who attended the Port Vale match, what does that say about others like Murray on far higher salaries and who cost us more to sign?

Get off the lad's back. He's giving 100 per cent and he's doing a job for us. It's not his fault he's being picked ahead of other players. If you're unhappy that he's in the team and you feel you must have a pop, try having a go at the fat-salary players with supposedly far more natural talent who still can't put in the performances to dislodge him.

I was amazed at Doncaster to hear some of the vitriol thrown at Basso, real nasty abuse about ######ing off back to the non-league where he belonged etc. Well, I can't speak for the Vale game because I wasn't there, but up until that moment he'd not put a foot wrong and was proving himself a real find by GJ.

I fear there are some football snobs among us who won't rate anyone unless we had to pay big bucks for them and are paying them a fortune. Well, those high-paid so-called 'stars' have under-achieved for years and landed us in the you know what. If they don't want to play when the going gets tough, and bargain basement players like Savage and Basso can do better, then I'll tell you who gets my contempt and who gets my support.

I wasn't comparing him to other players in the squad, I was merely stating that, in my opinion, he's not good enough - period. The fact that he's being selected before other players who do have proven ability casts doubt on Johnson's selections and his ability to motivate, not the other players.

You may be right that 'how he's played for other teams means bugger all', especially since he's hardly played for 'other teams' - why is that?

What I'd like to know is who recommended him to the club, and what did they base their opinion of him on?

How could they decide whether he was any good, if they hadn't had him watched?

[Nibor]

In my opinion Savage doesn't have the ability necessary to hold down a place in a first XI at this level in the long term. Johnson might keep him on to mix things up occasionally but it won't be any more than that.

He puts in effort and works hard yes, and he's not totally shocking, but he has nothing to offer over and above many many other strikers available for nominal fees from non league teams. He won't score or create a decent enough number of goals, and while he's awkward to defend against that's not enough of a return.

Nibor

[SimplyRed]

How many career appearances (admittedly at a much higher level) had Ian Wright made at 23 years old then smart a***??

Such a mug you are. Why don't you travel away to watch City and then make comment?

'Says it all', cheeky little bugger you are - Bas Savage has ability, if you say otherwise then you either haven't seen him play or own a guide dog...

I sometimes wonder whether it's physically possible for you to respond to a contrary opinion without being patronising, sarcastic and generally unpleasant.

Let's get one thing straight - I have an opinion, with which you are at liberty to disagree, but do me a favour and don't try to discredit my opinion by questioning my intelligence or my knowledge of football - thanks.

Incidentally, Ian Wright signed for Palace from non-league (after being rejected as a youngster by Millwall and Brighton) when he was 21 and went on to over 200 appearances for them in the 6 years he was there - simply a player who slipped through 'the net' or a 'late developer' - it happens.

Savage, on the other hand, was signed by Reading when he was 20 (where was he and what was he doing before then?), did not make an impact, went on loan to Bury and Wycombe, who also didn't want him and has been unable to gain a pro contract since Reading released him in May this year, until now.

Personally, I don't see the connection or parallel with Wright's career.

Savage may well be flavour of the month at the moment because he works hard and won the fans over in the Port Vale game. I still believe he is not of the standard or quality we should be looking for to get us out of this mess.

That's my opinion, and it leads me to continue to doubt Johnson's credentials to get us to safety.

[Robbored]

Savage gives City another option that is often valuable especially in the lower leagues.He's tall, awkward and strong.Defenders don't like playing against guys of his height.All the other strikers at AG don't have the same assets.Thats why imo Johnson has him in the squad.

I haven't seen enough of him yet to form a real opinion of his ability but in the 25 mins or that I have seen he looked ok with decent ball control for a big guy.He was some people's MoM at Vale which was his first start in a City shirt.He can't be complete cr@p!

Lets give the bloke a few games before forming an opinion - sorry I forgot! we're City fans....

[Guest Harry Dolman]

I think we sometimes forget the obvious on this forum........... when Johnson signed Savage he didn't say "this is a 25 a season striker who will score us out of trouble" - he said something along the lines of "having Bas is like having another club in your golf bag". What that says to me is that even for him, a lot of Bas' appeal is the fact he offers us something a bit different. He is likely to be cheap wages wise, if he does well, great he stays, if not we let him go & we haven't really lost much.

Undoubtedly Johnson is a bit of a wheeler dealer & he fancies his chances of making the odd slik purse from sows ear. With this approach you get some successes/some failures - thats exactly what happened at Yeovil. He took some gambles that failed but he took a risk on Matt Harold who is doing well (& probably more prolific than any of the Brentford forwards). He also took Fallon on loan last season when many were viewing him as the donkey of the division.

[Chappers]

In my opinion, just a standard Lower-Division big awkward bloke. He caused problems at Vale, BUT that was against a scratch defence in an injury-hit side. Once sides get to know him, I suspect he might find it a lot harder to impress. Basically, looking to survive at this level, he is an 'option', but if you are seriously looking at promotion, I have doubts.

[RedTop]

I wasn't comparing him to other players in the squad, I was merely stating that, in my opinion, he's not good enough - period. The fact that he's being selected before other players who do have proven ability casts doubt on Johnson's selections and his ability to motivate, not the other players.

Well I think you should compare him to other City players. He was MotM Port Vale for many of the fans who actually went. When you compare him with the other starting players and he comes out top like that, it suggests that he may well be good enough at this level. He's certainly been nowhere near the worst player on the pitch in any of the games he's played.

You might have expected that because he's not had any starts at this level, he would take a bit of time to adjust to the pace and style of play. That's an excuse used by many 'better' players for slow starts after big money signings. Instead, he's got stuck in and done the job.

No-one is claiming he's going to go on to become Ian Wright. What I am suggesting is that it's just possible he may have 'slipped through the net', that GJ seems to be able to make some use of him in our current situation and that Savage deserves a chance to give it a go at this level without so-called fans of the club he is working so hard for getting on his back and ridiculing him so cruelly in the way that has been happening.

[swindlered]

From the twenty minutes i've seen of Bas at AG he looked shocking. However better to have a shocking target man than no target man at all. Every game i've seen where we've had two small players on the pitch we've not been able to get the ball in the opposition third as our passing game is not good enough to keep the ball on the deck.