A Horse With No Name Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 Does anybody else think we should s#### our academy as soon as possible? I believe it costs us the best part of £1million a season to fund, and what have we produced over the years? Be honest now? A handful of players who are barely good enough for the current side, languishing half way down a very poor 2nd division. Any little gems that we may uncover will invariably have to be sold to finance the next generation of no hopers. Just imagine if that £1 million was invested in the team, annually, on good seasoned pros from other clubs, and promising youngsters from topheavy prem clubs. In other words, let other clubs bring on the kids at their expense and us reap the rewards. We can still have a youth policy, and young reserve team like we always used to. I really believe that the academy scheme is not working at this club. What do others think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fct Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 No, s####ping the academy is one way of cutting off a flow of youngsters into the club, ones we would otherwise miss out on and have to replace with purchasing players from other places. Although it costs £1million per season i think the long term chances are good. The last time we had such a crop of city youngsters coming through at once was in the mid-70s. S####ping the academy would be a short-sighted policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse With No Name Posted November 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 exactly my point. In the mid 1970s we never had an academy. We used to recruit the best available youngsters from Scotland (mainly), and the local West Country areas. What followed was the most exciting era this club has ever seen. The youngsters coming through now are JUST NOT good enough for this division, and god help us if we ever do go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hereford Ciderman Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 S####ping the academy!?! Are you serious where do you think the likes of: Fortune Woodman Lita Kev A There alot of young lads in the acad, that will be very good players, in the un19s at the moment you got 3 or 4 lads holding down regular reserve team places an they will be ready very soon for the first team! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Spike Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 With the new price of signing contracts and players demanding things to sign onto clubs it may cost more to buy a team of young players if we s####ped the academy. Also players coming in from other places means 0 loyalty. Atleast when you give a player training and raise them to play football they have some respect for the club who give them it (not all but most). If City s####ped the academy I would probably lose alot more faith in how City was being run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesco Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Keep it! It is worth so much more than what it cost's us. Out of the players that plyed today, Woodman Coles Lita Burnell Hill Phillips (Kind of) Amankwaah Have all come through the academy so that has probably saved us say 600k in transfer fees, charges etc by agents. They probably are are a lesser wage than if we were to have signed them from another club. We are the only club I think in the West Country to have a academy and we have the chance to sign every quality player that comes from the bristol area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfc seattle Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 How bout this angle. I think that if Danny is our coach we should s#### it. He doesn't seem to incorporate the players into the squad. We seem to be producing players that aren't ever going to get a shot to play for us.... That being said we should definitly keep the academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatWill Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 The academy does not cost £1,000,000 to run each year. Its only just over half that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spanish fly Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 wesco says: Keep it! It is worth so much more than what it cost's us. Out of the players that plyed today, Woodman Coles Lita Burnell Hill Phillips (Kind of) Amankwaah I incline towards s####ping it because - Lita came from Chelsea Phillips was never in the Academy Amankwaah is a waste of space That list covers a few years so probably equates to best part of £2 million which makes each of the others worth about £500,000 each which is a lot for second division players. It only pans out if someone like Coles is sold for a decent fee + sell on which might yet happen if he is not continually playyed out of position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedUn Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Does anybody else think we should s#### our academy as soon as possible?.... only a very small number, most of whom hide behind behind anonymous forum handles. They usually start by saying something like ...I believe it costs us the best part of £1million a season to fund ... whereas everybody knows it is only just over half of that. They then ask ... and what have we produced over the years? ... in tones that seem to imply the team should already be stocked exclusively with academy graduates despite the fact the oldest player to have even one year there is only 24 this season. This is also to ignore the fact that, because of the overwhelming allure of "big clubs" prior to our academy licence being granted, the first age group the academy had a clear run at recruiting are currently U/16s (and very good many of them are too!). Their rhetoric invariably continues with stuff like ...Just imagine if that [mythical] £1 million was invested in the team, annually, on good seasoned pros from other clubs, and promising youngsters from topheavy prem clubs. ... whereas anyone who can remember as far back as 1998-2000 doesn't have to imagine it! Finally, to completely contradict their own argument there, is the perennial classic ...We can still have a youth policy, and young reserve team like we always used to. ... totally ignoring the fact that any non-academy youth set-up will, like the Gas, be automatically be recruiting only from the population of players not good enough for academies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatWill Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Nice one Red'Un, I thought I was right in saying that the academy has never cost more than £650,000 to run in a year. Sadly there is a myth that it costs a million a year, probably because the people who think this round the numbers up to suit their arguement. Keeping the academy is SO important and anyone that wants it deceased clearly knows nothing about BCFC. I find it absolutely shocking that anyone could come out and say "get rid of the academy" especially with the plans at St George's coming along nicely. Can't be true City fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidersam Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Top comments RedUn'! The academy pays for its self in the long run. think of the players thats come through our academy in recent years. If there was no academy then we wont have these players and would prob have to spend alot more in the transfer markets. Academy must stay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham b Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Before I start the main body of my post I would like to state that I am in principle as big a supporter as the majority of the ethos of the academy. It would be great if we could recruit and take forward a group of Bristol based youngsters who would become the nucleus of our first team squad. The reality however is somewhat different. Strangely, somewhat ironically the most successful season for the academy was the first when we qualified for the play off stage for both the u19's and the u17's. Since that time we have not equalled that performance and the results at u19 level, where this season we are still to win a game and last season didn't win between August and March, are less than satisfactory. Year on year the results from the u17 of two years previous are not matched by the u19's. Year on year we take on others cast offs from the exit trials and the large majority of those offered professional contracts in recent years have not been Bristol area born/based and have entered the Academy at a late stage. Hopefully the seeds for the future success of the Academy have been sown in the St George City Academy. The costs of the educational elements will have been slashed, the facilities will be significantly improved and in time we will be able to compete with most Premier League squads for facilities. However the facilities are not the be all and end all of success. Something appears to go wrong between the ages of 17 and 19. Why do other clubs players apparently progress more rapidly than ours. Why do we continuously have to booster our Academy squads from outside. Is there a problem with the management structure of the Academy, is it the coaches? Or is it because we are a second division club and therefore can't be expected to compete with the Premier League clubs. The collapse of the transfer market has also connived against the Academy structure for teams like the City. Gone is the thought that by selling one of our better players per year we can recoup the costs, To date we have recouped the princely total of absolutely zilch. We also have a manager who seems somewhat reluctant to give youth a chance. I remember too well the way in which the gang of threes youths were quickly shelved on Wilsons appointment and only returned when injury and/or suspension dictated. Just imagine what a Dario Grady could have done wiyh the players that have been at Wilson's disposal. I believe that what is needed with the Academy is a complete appraisel of its performance to date. I would like to have an increased confidence of its success. Assuming that we have spent up to £3million to date I don't feel that we have had an adequate return. Hopefully in the near immediate future we will see a better return on a lower investment. We are now I believe the only second division club with an Academy. Failure to reach the 1st in the next two years with a strong nucleus of Academy graduates must surely mean that the Academys success must be questioned. Graham B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 If Wilson and Co are allowed to take this club further backwards then we wont be able to afford the academy anyway. In the meantime, keep the academy if we can afford to as it is a foot in the door of the traditional Gas stronghold of St George. By having a presence in St George BCFC will continue to erode support for the Gas in that area. What was surprising was the appointment of Danny Wilson almost 4 seasons ago - a manager not known for blooding youth as Peter Taylor as BCFC manager would have been. What is more surprising is the apparent lack of support for the BCFC scouting network under the current Wilson regime. Over 10 years ago our scouts brought players like Darius Jackanowski, Andy Cole and Brian Tinnion to the club. What is also of concern is the poor value we've got from most of the signings we've made over the last 5 years - signings we've had to make as Wilson will not blood academy players or the academy players are not good enough for poxy Div 2? I note that Southampton have got a high calibre European scout - the one and only Terry Cooper!!! It's about time this club had scouts working for us of similar quality to recommend the quality players we need for promotion. BCFC currently has an inability to pick up on the talent in local and regional lower league sides and in the national higher leagues that is available right now. Once Wilson and Co have gone the problem will still remain with this club's scouts still unable to pick up on the best available footballing talent for the money we have. Joe Jordan, when he was manager, never seemed to have much problem getting good players probably because he has some very good contacts in the game. Danny Wilson seems to lack those good contacts and would probably have difficulty handling the type of players we need - e.g. the Carbone and Di Cannio types In my opinion, the next manager the board picks should be more willing to help blood our expensively groomed academy players and also have better footballing contacts than Wilson so as to be able to get to any footballing talent first before our rivals. I don't think we'll get the full benefits from the academy and the first team in general with Wilson at the helm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre_The_Giant Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 But isn't £650,000 the best part of a million anyway? So you're all right. I would definitely sway towards keeping the Academy, mainly because of what Tony "dodgy dealing" Fawthrop said at the Tinnion do last season. I think it's yet to prove it's worth though really. Matty H, Colesy and Boz are good players, but the rest are pretty mediocre. Bristol's location means we should be getting some good roar talent developing from the West Country area in the next few years, so here's hoping :sport19: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Swiss Baloney Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Right at the moment about 50% of our Squad is made up of Acadamy players on low wages. If were to have a smaller squad of older pro's the wages would be harder to control and much higher. We would be bankrupt. The acadamy is very cost effective 500k ish for that lot ?? that's the wages for a couple of seasoned old war horses ??? Craig Woodman << 1st Sekani Simpson Darren Jones Kevin Amankwaah << 1st Clayton Fortune << 1st Darren Hawkins Marvin Brown Lee McGuire David Coupe Danny Coles << 1st Leroy Lita << 1st Matthew Hill << 1st Joe Burnell << 1st Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse With No Name Posted November 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 But how many of them are ANY GOOD ? You could have a thousand kids on the brink of the first team but if theyre cr*p its all so pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider head Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 But how many of them are ANY GOOD ? You could have a thousand kids on the brink of the first team but if theyre cr*p its all so pointless. yep agreed you need a good balance and at the moment it is not there. how many seasons have we been told that the kids will come good? and we are still in div.2 all i'm saying the likes of the 1st team that has come from the Academy have got to start to recoup the money invested in them by gaining city promotion and not stuck happy in div. 2 just earning their weekly wage not giving a t@ss, mabe we should look at the skills of the scouts at city who find these kids they need to go for a eye test half the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fct Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 But then look at the rest of the team that are not academy; don't blame the fact City are still in division 2 purely on the fact we have 50% of the first team from the academy! What about the non-academy players? City still failing might well be down to the non-academy players not being good enough. Look at Matthews, what has he really contributed in all his time here? That's just an example. Lets not get the issue distorted by contrived "facts" which are not relevant. Currently the academy is the future of the club. Take it away and the club would have to rely on buying in expensive risks without knowing if they would suit the club, and also would have no developed club loyalty. Also they would have inflated salaries negotitated by greedy and self-seeking agents to the detriment of a club that cannot afford such. Imagine the effect that would have! City would only be able to afford around 16 players, not the 20-odd, and injuries/suspensions etc would cause havoc. I would say City would plunge into administration faster than you could say Notts County. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham b Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 .... and which of the these facts is contrived. The u19's have not won this season and went nearly 6 months without a win last. The majority of professional contracts given out to graduates of the academy in the last two years have gone to late imports into the system. The club is more successful at the u17 level than at the u19 level. I would love the Academy to be an unqualified success. However to beleive it is relies on rhetoric rather than reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fct Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 I think Graham that the reality is that despite te academy being an unqualified success ro not, its in fact keepin gthe club afloat with its conveyor belt of players. The club cannot afford to buy any more, as you and I know, and so it needs these youngsters coming in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedUn Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Graham B asked: .... and which of the these facts is contrived. To which the answer is:The majority of professional contracts given out to graduates of the academy in the last two years have gone to late imports into the system.... if by "late imports into the system" you mean lads recruited to the third year of scholarships via the exit trials, there were four such were out of the twelve* graduates awarded pro contracts in the last two years. Dodgy majority. * twelve includes offer made to Rosenior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham b Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 if by "late imports into the system" you mean lads recruited to the third year of scholarships via the exit trials, there were four such were out of the twelve* graduates awarded pro contracts in the last two years. Dodgy majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedUn Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 By late imports into the system I would mean people who have been recruited later than the initial schoolboy recruitment. This would include the likes of Woodman (Lilleshall), Lita(Chelsea) amongst others ... the significance of which distinction completely eludes me since both players were already signed-up elsewhere at the time the academy programme was instigated. How could they be signed as schoolboys to the academy if it didn't even exist?! Woody was recruited as a first-year scholar in 1999/00, Leroy was recruited as a first year scholar in 2001/02 and is still an under 19. Both have thus had the maximum benefit of the full-time development programme offered by the BCFC academy. Neither of these excellent young players would be here now if it were not for BCFC's academy status, that's the real point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSN Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 I'm in favour of the academy, maybe the academy HASN'T produced the best of talent lately, but you'll never know who could be round the corner. I would say that the biggest downfall for the Academy is the competition in this area. I'm not suggesting that Rovers or Swindon etc are the competition but Southampton. Southampton have a very large academy stretching all the way to Bath. A lot of the decent local kids in Bath are offered contracts at an early age and some from Bristol are attracted to the bigger stage which is the Premier League and not us. In my opinion, the academy will only produce excellent talent if we are in the 1st division, then we will be respected by the younger kids and are more attractive as a club. We can then compete with the likes of Southampton and the benefits of the academy for the future. At the moment there is speculation regarding the academy and its purposes but IF we get to the first div then the benefits will (going out on a limb) show and all will be happy. . . .or probably not!!! you miserable bunch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesco Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 i think you will find that Lita is in the Academy as he is curretnly a 3rd year scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedUn Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Southampton have a very large academy stretching all the way to Bath. A lot of the decent local kids in Bath are offered contracts at an early age and some from Bristol are attracted to the bigger stage which is the Premier League and not us. Yes, Sothampton's far-sighted satellite development centre in Bath has been draining talent from this area for years, even before academies came in, recruiting from as far afield as South Wales. City now have similar set-ups in (I believe) Lydney, Taunton and Shepton Mallet ... but you try finding any information on them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSN Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 I only know of the one in Shepton Mallet because I used to go to that one but because of cash strapped city couldn't affiord to run it anymore they closed it down. Meaning kids had to pay for the training and the coach had to organise it himself, a man called Mr Webb (wont say his full name for certain reasons) who is now a full time coach for the area. If it wasn't for people like him City wouldn't be in the position they are now with the likes of Coles and Hill etc coming from places such as Sheptons academy for city. Southampton have a figured out in this area and City don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksred Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 So, Tins excepted how many of the older squad are any better than the academy players. :Confused13: God help City, when Tin Man stacks playing, Academy players need older wiser heads to help them progress, and uh, who do we have???? :Confused13: Danny, Danny, hello??? :Costumed19: Also who are our scouts, because they don't seem to find much talent around. Even fans found Miller... The Academy is here to stay, like it or not, but no wise old heads are, so thats what we need Danny :Rage: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 A bit of a problem there Bucksred. No decent BCFC scouting system, Tinman nearing the end of his playing days and an increasingly clueless manager at the helm. The club needs fresh ideas and a fresh approach as we're currently stagnating. I find it odd that we've got a results driven Chairman at the helm from the world of high finance and he seems clueless as well with regard to needing a decent footballing manager to run his BCFC business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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