More Cartoon Rage

[bristolborn_and_red]

Can someone tell me why a native born Nigerian christian has to be killed and their church's burnt because of some cartoons printed in Denmark?

more cartoon rage

Or What has Hitler got to do with anything?

God bless Hitler

[dagest]

Your first propaganda link isn't working for me.

Hitler? Didn't you know? - he hated cartoons too. You know why he invaded Belgium don't you? - That's right Tin Tin.

[The Man In Black]

I would presume it's because of his views on Jews...

[bristolborn_and_red]

Your first propaganda link isn't working for me.

Hitler? Didn't you know? - he hated cartoons too. You know why he invaded Belgium don't you? - That's right Tin Tin.

Try this one then.

more cartoon rage

[solo1bc]

Try this one then.

more cartoon rage

Spoken like someone who knows as little about Africa as they do the Middle East.

Or did Africans only start killing each other when Islam arrived?

No doubt that this is wrong and religious violence at it's worse but please try to understand a bit more about a very complex situation (Nigeria & Africa in general) before simply painting the 'muslim bad' picture (AGAIN!)

[bristolborn_and_red]

Spoken like someone who knows as little about Africa as they do the Middle East.

Or did Africans only start killing each other when Islam arrived?

No doubt that this is wrong and religious violence at it's worse but please try to understand a bit more about a very complex situation (Nigeria & Africa in general) before simply painting the 'muslim bad' picture (AGAIN!)

Ok, It has nothing to do with Islam. It was the umbongo dembongo tribe (who converted to Islam) against their ancient enemies the jemba jemba tribe (who converted to Christianity). The umbongo dembongo were not rioting because of some Danish cartoons but the insulting effergies the jemba jemba had produced. Any jemba jemba who got in the way had it coming to them. And how dare they have their architecture (church's) in the vincinity of the umbongo dembongo. These folly's were just crying out to be burned.

Sheesh, talk about apologetics. This has nothing to do with old rivalries between Africans.

It is about Islam.

[solo1bc]

It is about Islam.

EVERYTHING for you is about Islam dude so I just give up. I'm sure that this killing was done in the 'name of Islam' but to understand the fact that there was a killing at all you need to understand a little about Africa (have you ever even been there?) and you can't just keep stating that all of the worlds evil's are simply about one religion.

It's much, much more complex than that which you should understand. You seem perfectly intelligent so why this insistence on simplyfying (I need spell check!) everything to equal 'Muslim BAD!!'

[bucksred]

Ben,

Take it from me, with all Africas myriad problems, and disasters, the very last thing any of their sorely tried people need is Islamic fundamentalism, but all over the continent they ARE doing just that. Quitce a few sub Saharan countries now face these loonies!

PAGAD in South Africa started off as an anti guns/drugs and gangs thang in Cape Town (A good thing for at the time twas a SERIOUS problem), and it has now been hijacked by the mad mullahs there...introducing fundamentalist lunacy in a country with quite enough problems already.

[solo1bc]

Ben,

Take it from me, with all Africas myriad problems, and disasters, the very last thing any of their sorely tried people need is Islamic fundamentalism

I completely agree with you mate but the point I was trying to make is that conflict in Africa goes far deeper than Islamic fundamentalism. There is a base of corruption, bad education, tribal strife and poverty that makes it a perfect breeding ground for those who want to control and manipulate a population. Whether that's in the name of Islam, Christianity, Communisim, Democracy or anything else for that matter!

I'm not trying to pass blame or 'apologise' for anything but the violence in Nigeria, Africa and even the Middle East goes far beyond 'Islam=Bad' as bristolborn keeps insisting. There are hundreds of different reasons, influences and cultural/regional/historical/political hang ups that contribute.

PAGAD in South Africa started off as an anti guns/drugs and gangs thang in Cape Town (A good thing for at the time twas a SERIOUS problem), and it has now been hijacked by the mad mullahs there...introducing fundamentalist lunacy in a country with quite enough problems already.

I was living in Kaap Stad (jeez do I miss that place! ) when PAGAD started and it was pretty conclusivly (sp) proven even then that PAGAD was a rival gang clearing up the competition before moving in and selling drugs etc. themselves so not sure you've got it right with it being a 'good thing' Public necklacing can never be a good thing dude!

If it has since been reinvented as an Islamic fundamentalist movement then a) that's news to me and b) it doesn't surprise me as the members were primarily poor and badly educated anyway.

Kind of reinforces the point of been trying to make to bristolborn. Of course there are very bad elements in the Islamic world at the moment but it's hardly a unique situtation of poor, uneducated and often downtrodden people turning to radical groups and ideals is it?

I don't think it's very fair to label over 1 billion VERY normal people with the same brush though do you?

[CiderHider]

BenSolo, Fair play to you, as our only Muslim poster (i think) you stand your corner with remarkable integrity and intellegence, your posts demonstrate to me you are by far one of the most well balanced posters on this forum and its a pleasure to read your opinions.

I think your a credit to your religon and doing no harm in confirming some peoples preconceptions of Muslims & Islam are ill-founded.

OK thats enough with the brown nosing, but keep it up!

[hilltop red]

EVERYTHING for you is about Islam dude so I just give up. I'm sure that this killing was done in the 'name of Islam' but to understand the fact that there was a killing at all you need to understand a little about Africa (have you ever even been there?) and you can't just keep stating that all of the worlds evil's are simply about one religion.

It's much, much more complex than that which you should understand. You seem perfectly intelligent so why this insistence on simplyfying (I need spell check!) everything to equal 'Muslim BAD!!'

Mate you have got to be on pills, to be so naive.

They are rioting and killed christians because of a few danish cartoons.

Lets not forget the muslims in nigeria chased the miss world competition out of their country, because the contestants spoke out for a women due to be stoned to death because she had an affair and got pregnant outside marrage.

How you defend that way of living i don't know, nor understand, why you would want too.

[dagest]

Mate you have got to be on pills, to be so naive.

They are rioting and killed christians because of a few danish cartoons.

Lets not forget the muslims in nigeria chased the miss world competition out of their country, because the contestants spoke out for a women due to be stoned to death because she had an affair and got pregnant outside marrage.

How you defend that way of living i don't know, nor understand, why you would want too.

Arrghhh! The world is not black and white; there is no clash of civilisations (despite what the likes of Huntingdon say). You do not have to pick one set of murdering barstools over another. Not all Christians are bad. Not all Muslims are bad. Some bad people (politicians normally) call themselves Muslims. Some call themselves Christians. Others have called themsleves Communists. And again, others prefer democrats or republicans. They all want power and they dress themselves in whatever garb guarantees the quickest root to the top of the social pyramid. They want to control us all because they think they're right.

Look at Oswald Mosley for example. He was the precursor of the modern politican all power and no defining principles.

Rant over.

[bristolborn_and_red]

I completely agree with you mate but the point I was trying to make is that conflict in Africa goes far deeper than Islamic fundamentalism. There is a base of corruption, bad education, tribal strife and poverty that makes it a perfect breeding ground for those who want to control and manipulate a population. Whether that's in the name of Islam, Christianity, Communisim, Democracy or anything else for that matter!

I'm not trying to pass blame or 'apologise' for anything but the violence in Nigeria, Africa and even the Middle East goes far beyond 'Islam=Bad' as bristolborn keeps insisting. There are hundreds of different reasons, influences and cultural/regional/historical/political hang ups that contribute.

I was living in Kaap Stad (jeez do I miss that place! ) when PAGAD started and it was pretty conclusivly (sp) proven even then that PAGAD was a rival gang clearing up the competition before moving in and selling drugs etc. themselves so not sure you've got it right with it being a 'good thing' Public necklacing can never be a good thing dude!

If it has since been reinvented as an Islamic fundamentalist movement then a) that's news to me and b) it doesn't surprise me as the members were primarily poor and badly educated anyway.

Kind of reinforces the point of been trying to make to bristolborn. Of course there are very bad elements in the Islamic world at the moment but it's hardly a unique situtation of poor, uneducated and often downtrodden people turning to radical groups and ideals is it?

I don't think it's very fair to label over 1 billion VERY normal people with the same brush though do you?

Absolute poppycock.

This has nothing to do with culture or conflict in Africa or poverty or whatever excuse you would like to use.

From the Phillipines to Indonesia to Pakistan to Persia to the Arab states to Turkey to north Africa and now to west Africa, there have been riots and demostrations resulting in 45 deaths and all over a cartoon. All different cultures but the one thing that unites them is Islam.

Now back to the original question "why were native Nigerian christians killed and their church's burned" and why is the Pakistani women holding a placard saying "God bless Hitler". These were demostrations against the publishing of the cartoons. What is the connection? I believe these are valid questions. Care to answer them?

[hilltop red]

Arrghhh! The world is not black and white; there is no clash of civilisations (despite what the likes of Huntingdon say). You do not have to pick one set of murdering barstools over another. Not all Christians are bad. Not all Muslims are bad. Some bad people (politicians normally) call themselves Muslims. Some call themselves Christians. Others have called themsleves Communists. And again, others prefer democrats or republicans. They all want power and they dress themselves in whatever garb guarantees the quickest root to the top of the social pyramid. They want to control us all because they think they're right.

Look at Oswald Mosley for example. He was the precursor of the modern politican all power and no defining principles.

Rant over.

Understandable reply to my oversimple post

[solo1bc]

Absolute poppycock.

This has nothing to do with culture or conflict in Africa or poverty or whatever excuse you would like to use.

From the Phillipines to Indonesia to Pakistan to Persia to the Arab states to Turkey to north Africa and now to west Africa, there have been riots and demostrations resulting in 45 deaths and all over a cartoon. All different cultures but the one thing that unites them is Islam.

Now back to the original question "why were native Nigerian christians killed and their church's burned" and why is the Pakistani women holding a placard saying "God bless Hitler". These were demostrations against the publishing of the cartoons. What is the connection? I believe these are valid questions. Care to answer them?

*sigh*

For the LAST time, I'm not making excuses. I'm not apologising, rationalising or anything else.

All I am saying is that it is not as simple as Islam=BAD. There a hundred reasons why these cartoons have caused the chaos that they have. I don't want to repeat it so read Dagest's post above for just one. Islam is USED to mobilise and control people who feel abused and USED to channel their aggression in the way that the politician/imam or whatever wants. BUT the vast majority of muslims are just normal people. Again, for the LAST time, I LIVE with them so I think I have a better take on it that you.

As for the 'God Bless Hitler' placard it's because many Arabs believe that the western media (& world in general) is controlled by Jews so there's your answer for you. There making the same mistake that you are in thinking that ALL Jews or the Jewish religion are 'bad' for the actions of a few.

Oh, and 'poppycock'!?

Mate you have got to be on pills

Not this weekend!

How you defend that way of living i don't know, nor understand, why you would want too.

I don't defend their way of living as you can clearly see from my many posts that I think most of these cultures are 'backwards' and have condemned the actions of the stupid few countless times as well.

All I ask for is to not label over 1 billion people (muslims) with the same brush and simplyfy (how do you spell that!) a very complex issue.

[Guest revkev]

There's a good programme about these issues on Radio 4 (9 a.m., repeated tonight at 9.30, I think)

[bristolborn_and_red]

You still don't say why christians have been targeted and who the hell got a abused by a few cartoons?

Maybe they do believe that, however absurd: But why ask God to bless Hitler?

And why don't this quote thingy ever work for me?

[solo1bc]

You still don't say why christians have been targeted and who the hell got a abused by a few cartoons?

Because their corrupt power hungry little imam sees a way to gain more influence and control over 'his' people by inciting religious hatred.

Islam (and the Danish Cartoons) in this case are being used as an excuse to either keep people distracted from real issues (standard of living in Nigeria is shocking!) or as a shield for people who want total control of the country (who happen to Muslim)

Maybe they do believe that, however absurd: But why ask God to bless Hitler?

And why don't this quote thingy ever work for me?

It's pretty simple mate, because Hitler killed a lot of Jews. Jews are the enemy to these people so they want 'God' to bless someone who killed a lot of them.

If you think this is abhorrant (as I do) then hopefully you will start to see how wrong your attitude about muslims is as well? I live in hope dude!

It's actually not that absurd to believe that their is a huge amount of control of the Western world by Jewish people. Jews do control a lot of the western media congolmorates and large corporations. I'm not anti-semetic in any way as I believe that these meglomanics would happily screw a Jewish person as quickly as they would screw a Christian or a Muslim for more money/power but the fact remains that a lot of them are Jewish.

[bucksred]

Because their corrupt power hungry little imam sees a way to gain more influence and control over 'his' people by inciting religious hatred.

Islam (and the Danish Cartoons) in this case are being used as an excuse to either keep people distracted from real issues (standard of living in Nigeria is shocking!) or as a shield for people who want total control of the country (who happen to Muslim)

It's pretty simple mate, because Hitler killed a lot of Jews. Jews are the enemy to these people so they want 'God' to bless someone who killed a lot of them.

If you think this is abhorrant (as I do) then hopefully you will start to see how wrong your attitude about muslims is as well? I live in hope dude!

It's actually not that absurd to believe that their is a huge amount of control of the Western world by Jewish people. Jews do control a lot of the western media congolmorates and large corporations. I'm not anti-semetic in any way as I believe that these meglomanics would happily screw a Jewish person as quickly as they would screw a Christian or a Muslim for more money/power but the fact remains that a lot of them are Jewish.

What about the Sultan of Brunei, the Saudi Sheikhs...I reckon there would be a large number of Muslims controlling the levers too, Ben............while paying the nutters to stoke hell up in the madrassahs....while being hypocritical drinking and fornicating round the Western world.

There are a billion Muslims, and you don't hear too many criticising the nutters openly, unlike Jewish and Christians, who may, and indeed do criticise their governments....the sane ones certainly aint openly disagreeing are they?

Answer why Muslims cheered while battered, captured allied airmen (including one Kuwaiti)were illegally paraded on Iraqi TV, during Gulf War 1, in which Saudi, Egypt, syria, UAE were all part of the coalition to get rid of Hussein?...all native born Brits too?

Fanatics can be discounted, but people like these, ordinary normal British citizens....c'mon, and this wasnt even the controversial Gulf War 2. This was a war, only China, among major powers opposed, and only Iran, Libya & Sudan among the Muslim world opposed the UN backed ejection of Hussein from Kuwait!

[solo1bc]

Answer why Muslims cheered while battered, captured allied airmen (including one Kuwaiti)were illegally paraded on Iraqi TV, during Gulf War 1, in which Saudi, Egypt, syria, UAE were all part of the coalition to get rid of Hussein?...all native born Brits too?

We've been over this though Bucks... Because they are ****in idiots!

Also, I don't hear many Jews criticising Israel do you? There was a protest by orthodox Jews in New York last week (burning Israeli flags!) but it wasn't shown in the media?

Israeli Protest - Media Cover Up

As for why there isn't more outcry from the Muslim community... there is plenty but the western media only want to portray a certain image of the East and the muslim world and also because I believe that muslims have a bit of a persecution complex unfortunately.

Trust me I argue against that as strongly as I argue on here for a more common sense view of muslims in general.

[bristolborn_and_red]

Because their corrupt power hungry little imam sees a way to gain more influence and control over 'his' people by inciting religious hatred.

Islam (and the Danish Cartoons) in this case are being used as an excuse to either keep people distracted from real issues (standard of living in Nigeria is shocking!) or as a shield for people who want total control of the country (who happen to Muslim)

It's pretty simple mate, because Hitler killed a lot of Jews. Jews are the enemy to these people so they want 'God' to bless someone who killed a lot of them.

If you think this is abhorrant (as I do) then hopefully you will start to see how wrong your attitude about muslims is as well? I live in hope dude!

It's actually not that absurd to believe that their is a huge amount of control of the Western world by Jewish people. Jews do control a lot of the western media congolmorates and large corporations. I'm not anti-semetic in any way as I believe that these meglomanics would happily screw a Jewish person as quickly as they would screw a Christian or a Muslim for more money/power but the fact remains that a lot of them are Jewish.

You say you are not anti-semetic, but read your last paragraph and then read it again and again. It might not be outright jew baiting but it is indeed anti-semetic.

[solo1bc]

You say you are not anti-semetic, but read your last paragraph and then read it again and again. It might not be outright jew baiting but it is indeed anti-semetic.

Maybe you should read it again? Or maybe you should learn what anti-semetic means?

These corrupt individuals just happen to be Jewish, I don't dislike them because they are Jewish, I dislike them because of the way these particular people view the world in general.

They could be buddhist, shintoist or worship the teletubbies for all I care.

[hilltop red]

*sigh*

For the LAST time, I'm not making excuses. I'm not apologising, rationalising or anything else.

All I am saying is that it is not as simple as Islam=BAD. There a hundred reasons why these cartoons have caused the chaos that they have. I don't want to repeat it so read Dagest's post above for just one. Islam is USED to mobilise and control people who feel abused and USED to channel their aggression in the way that the politician/imam or whatever wants. BUT the vast majority of muslims are just normal people. Again, for the LAST time, I LIVE with them so I think I have a better take on it that you.

As for the 'God Bless Hitler' placard it's because many Arabs believe that the western media (& world in general) is controlled by Jews so there's your answer for you. There making the same mistake that you are in thinking that ALL Jews or the Jewish religion are 'bad' for the actions of a few.

Oh, and 'poppycock'!?

Not this weekend!

I don't defend their way of living as you can clearly see from my many posts that I think most of these cultures are 'backwards' and have condemned the actions of the stupid few countless times as well.

All I ask for is to not label over 1 billion people (muslims) with the same brush and simplyfy (how do you spell that!) a very complex issue.

I can assure you i don't label 1billion people with the same brush that would be idotic. However ther are factions in islam that cause violence and stone women to death in the name of their god.

[dagest]

You say you are not anti-semetic, but read your last paragraph and then read it again and again. It might not be outright jew baiting but it is indeed anti-semetic.

That really is a riduclous thing to say. I really think you completely miss the point Ben and I are often trying to make: LABELS MEAN NOTHING about who people are.

[mozo]

Can I just add that from the article in the link it isn't clear A) how the trouble started, and B) who is to blame

The eye-witnesses were Christians. Muslims died too.

There were 'some hoodlums' who 'went on the rampage'.

From that, I have no reason to blame muslims.

Was it appropriately policed? Was the torching of churches an action or reaction to events that day? Do we know?

All I'm saying is that one link isn't conclusive.

[Guest revkev]

Just read in the "Church Times" about a Roman Catholic priest who was shot dead in his church in Turkey by a youth in response to the publication of anti Islamic cartoons in Scandinavia.

Doesn't make sense

Also the wife of an Anglican bishop in Nigeria was hospitalised after an attack by muslims looking for her husband, and the death of a Roman Catholic bishop and his staff in Nigeria, all for the same reason.

The world's gone mad

[dagest]

The world's gone mad

Gone?

[mozo]

Just read in the "Church Times" about a Roman Catholic priest who was shot dead in his church in Turkey by a youth in response to the publication of anti Islamic cartoons in Scandinavia.

Doesn't make sense

Also the wife of an Anglican bishop in Nigeria was hospitalised after an attack by muslims looking for her husband, and the death of a Roman Catholic bishop and his staff in Nigeria, all for the same reason.

The world's gone mad

It must be terrible for Christians to see this happening, but the minority of muslims that are violent will no doubt say that they are justified in doing it. Too many people are getting mis-guided.

I think Christian leaders and Muslim leaders need to work together to show the world that we're all humans and that we're all on the same side.

[dagest]

It must be terrible for Christians to see this happening, but the minority of muslims that are violent will no doubt say that they are justified in doing it. Too many people are getting mis-guided.

I think Christian leaders and Muslim leaders need to work together to show the world that we're all humans and that we're all on the same side.

The alternative is that the world accepts that I am the new world dictator and that I always know best. Do you fancy the job of my chief henchman Mozo? There are a few regluar posters who are in need of re-programming.

[mozo]

The alternative is that the world accepts that I am the new world dictator and that I always know best. Do you fancy the job of my chief henchman Mozo? There are a few regluar posters who are in need of re-programming.

Sounds like a good gig.

I want to be given the option of slapping them, letting them go, or sending them to Iraq to fend for themselves.