Fao Gary Johnson - An Apology:

[Ian M]

Contrary to the table I posted late last night, it would appear that since our "losing run" ended half a season ago, we have actually picked up 45 points which is the best record of any team in this division.

Please revisit the thread and print off the updated tables before showing them to the lads at the training ground

[Robbored]

Contrary to the table I posted late last night, it would appear that since our "losing run" ended half a season ago, we have actually picked up 45 points which is the best record of any team in this division.

Please revisit the thread and print off the updated tables before showing them to the lads at the training ground

Much as I admire your diligence Madger, I do question what exactly it is you are trying to prove with all these stats.

In the final analysis City will still be playing in Division 1 next season.This is the stat that really matters.

[mozo]

Much as I admire your diligence Madger, I do question what exactly it is you are trying to prove with all these stats.

In the final analysis City will still be playing in Division 1 next season.This is the stat that really matters.

Surely, Madger's stats indicate that we have a good manager, which is equally as important as your fact about our league status?

[Ian M]

Surely, Madger's stats indicate that we have a good manager, which is equally as important as your fact about our league status?

What he said ^^^^

If we hadn't had so many people so keen to criticise all aspects of his management (& I mean cumulative - I am aware you approve of his signing of Noble) then I would have been less keen to produce these tables.

But, now that I have, I will continue to do so for the rest of the season.

[redrocks]

Much as I admire your diligence Madger, I do question what exactly it is you are trying to prove with all these stats.

In the final analysis City will still be playing in Division 1 next season.This is the stat that really matters.

I think he is trying to prove that Gary Johnson is doing a good job through the analysis of empirical data and statistics. Steve Lansdown would call it "evidence we are moving forward". This is a tried and tested approach that has been used by analysts down the years.

The alternative and more common approach is based on spouting blinkered opinion in the form of editorial, blind prejudice based on who one's mates are, hearsay from disgruntled players and things one might have heard down the pub. This is commonly referred to as "talking out of one's arse".

I know which approach holds more water for me.

[Mr Mosquito]

What he said ^^^^

If we hadn't had so many people so keen to criticise all aspects of his management (& I mean cumulative - I am aware you approve of his signing of Noble) then I would have been less keen to produce these tables.

But, now that I have, I will continue to do so for the rest of the season.

In support of Madger and his statistics and to repeat myself yet again.... ......

Gary Johnson has already proved many a forum poster wrong. Personally, I was won over by Gary Johnson at a very early stage of his tenure - it's now the BCFC manager in charge at BCFC and not a clique of dysfunctional players. Gary Johnson has provided the managerial leadership that's been missing at BCFC for years. Well, since John Ward and Joe Jordan before him - a full seven years ago ??!!!!

And now the punchline ........Gary Johnson can liberate Bristol City FC from this poxy division just as Sir Thomas Fairfax and Oliver Cromwell did liberate the good people of Bristol from the royalist tyranny during the September of 1645.

Up the City

[SE23Red]

Much as I admire your diligence Madger, I do question what exactly it is you are trying to prove with all these stats.

In the final analysis City will still be playing in Division 1 next season.This is the stat that really matters.

But the final analysis includes the record of two managers. The first had a record that extrapolated to 43 games would have us on 37 points and confirmed as relegated, the other has a record which would give us 73 points and a play-off place.

Next season breaking Johnson's record out from the failure of what went before will be unnecessary, and if he can keep up the good work our actual league position will look as healthy as the form stats since he came to the club.

[City Exile]

Robbered, in all situations an alternative view can be what we all need.

Your observations, often made about the losing run and whether this could have been handled better, and GJ being 'unproven' with top quality players are still thoughts I have from time to time.

However, it is far to simplistic to say 'if it was not for the losing run, he could have got us in to the play-offs'. It is equally valid to argue that 'the losing run was what laid the groundwork for the great run we are now on'. If he had gone for less change, and picked up a few more points then, it is simply impossible to know whether we would be on the run we are on now. My guess is not. An old saying is 'if you want to change something, change something', or 'it is a sign of madness to believe that doing exactly the same things in exactly the same way will lead to different results'.

Ultimately all a manager will be assessed on is results. Overall GJs are pretty good.

Considering how we were playing, not just results, what would you have considered as 'success' for any new manager taking over then this season at that time?

[Robbored]

What would you have considered as 'success' for any new manager taking over then this season at that time?

The new manager took over with 37 games and 111 points still to play for. Apart from Noble,Savage and McCammon the inherited squad remains the core of the currant team.

The play-offs would have been acceptable and had they been achieved City would have had a great chance, being the form team over recent weeks.

[gazareth]

The new manager took over with 37 games and 111 points still to play for. Apart from Noble,Savage and McCammon the inherited squad remains the core of the currant team.

The play-offs would have been acceptable and had they been achieved City would have had a great chance, being the form team over recent weeks.

Your expectations were unrealistic.

When he took over, we had just 7 points. In order to finish on, for example 85 points, we would need another 78 points from 37 games. That's an average of 2.1 points per game. I calculated, to demonstrate how difficult this would be to sustain over such a long period, that this would equate to almost 97 points over a season.

That is a figure that no manager in our recent history has achieved, and it was naive, unrealistic and downright foolish to expect Johnson to turn around a team of unfit and under-performing players who were low in confidence and then sustain that kind of run.

[redrocks]

The new manager took over with 37 games and 111 points still to play for. Apart from Noble,Savage and McCammon the inherited squad remains the core of the currant team.

The play-offs would have been acceptable and had they been achieved City would have had a great chance, being the form team over recent weeks.

So you don't think the poor form had anything to do with recovery following the 'cheap option' era then?

The fact that Bridges, Phillips, Stewart, Partridge, and a number of other first-team players from the start of the season are no longer around is also irrelevant as far as you are concerned?

To say the play-offs would have been "acceptable" when we were languishing at the arse-end of the league when GJ came in is certainly setting the bar high. I would have said that it would have been more miraculous than merely acceptable.

What is unacceptable is your inability to change your tune even when the results are staring you in the face. Or are you just sticking to your guns in order to give you a reason to get your post count up?

Either way it's pretty sad.

[Ian M]

The new manager took over with 37 games and 111 points still to play for. Apart from Noble,Savage and McCammon the inherited squad remains the core of the currant team.

The play-offs would have been acceptable and had they been achieved City would have had a great chance, being the form team over recent weeks.

Cotterill, Orr, Carey & Woodman are 4 players who I believe most will accept are playing better now than they were when Johnson arrived. Russell was not availble from the start and is playing better now than when first introduced to the team. Getting these players to this greater level of performance is not in instant "lightswitch" action and takes time. This would point to the fact that the team now is better than the one he inherited so it would be unfair to expect him to have achieved the current level of form from the off.

You also forgot that Fontaine has proved to be a quality addition.

It may be similar personnel, but the squad he has now are definitely not the same standard of players that he inherited

[Guest Ron]

The new manager took over with 37 games and 111 points still to play for. Apart from Noble,Savage and McCammon the inherited squad remains the core of the currant team.

The play-offs would have been acceptable and had they been achieved City would have had a great chance, being the form team over recent weeks.

And we have picked up more points during his tenure than Swansea, Barnsley, Huddersfield, Oldham, and the same amount as Brentford, all teams in/around the play-off mix, most with experienced & proven managers. If he can mix it - or more than mix it - with these, despite the fact we went on the losing run, surely that means something?

[mozo]

They've got you on the ropes Robbored

[Robbored]

They've got you on the ropes Robbored

I've never denied that City are playing some good stuff and looking far fitter and stronger than when Johnson first took over.Its not necessary for people to list stats to show that.

My disapointment is about not being in the play-offs when City are playing so well.After the Southend game the season will be over and we'll end up watching teams playing far worse stuff than City fighting it out on TV.

I'll bet the players feel exactly the same.

[maidenheadred]

Much as I admire your diligence Madger, I do question what exactly it is you are trying to prove with all these stats.

In the final analysis City will still be playing in Division 1 next season.This is the stat that really matters.

prove you wrong, mostly.

You say it's all GJ's fault that he didnt turn around a perennially underachieving, overpaid, underworked squad from relegation zone to promotion in 37 games, and you add that fact he won 3 of his first 4 games proves no hand grenades were needed, because allll the bad of 4 years mediocre management and half a season of working at 60% fitness had been un-done. You will no doubt add that fact the golden boy (now failing at his second club this season) with 150+ career goals isn't in the team is also reflective of primitive man management technique developed in the lower echelons of english association football.

And Madger's stats say he's done a great job; probably better than anyone could reasonable expect after Swansea. And it's not based on rhetoric, or conjecture, or biased opinions, or flawed, blinkered arguments, or continual need to justify a now infamous(ly bad) post - it's just based on pure, simple stats - which as you say, are the only things that matter.

[rumbellow]

Much as I admire your diligence Madger, I do question what exactly it is you are trying to prove with all these stats.

In the final analysis City will still be playing in Division 1 next season.This is the stat that really matters.

Better than Div 2 under 'the legend'.

I've never denied that City are playing some good stuff and looking far fitter and stronger than when Johnson first took over.Its not necessary for people to list stats to show that.

My disapointment is about not being in the play-offs when City are playing so well.After the Southend game the season will be over and we'll end up watching teams playing far worse stuff than City fighting it out on TV.

I'll bet the players feel exactly the same.

After the crap 'the legend' left us in this is an achievement.

[mozo]

I'll bet the players feel exactly the same.

Totally agree.

I'd bet they now wish that they hadn't been so poor during that losing streak, but it's too late for them to feel bad about it now. It's time to move on.

I presume the players have learnt their lesson - namely that the boss knows what he's doing and should be supported and obeyed - and will not allow themselves to drop their standards again.

Both the players and the manager are on the same wavelength now, and that's why I for one am looking forward to a full season of this promising combination.

[BCFC_Dan]

I'd bet they now wish that they hadn't been so poor during that losing streak, but it's too late for them to feel bad about it now. It's time to move on.

Interestingly, I think this is one of the areas where Johnson has made a real difference - when things go wrong the players no longer stand around looking sorry for themselves, they actually do something about it.

Reading between the fairly obvious lines it seems that Johnson had a go at Orr and Woodman for the Oldham goal yesterday. 6 months ago those 2 would have disappeared from the game completely and we'd have lost. Yesterday they upped their games and provided the winner.

[PhatWill]

I think he is trying to prove that Gary Johnson is doing a good job through the analysis of empirical data and statistics. Steve Lansdown would call it "evidence we are moving forward". This is a tried and tested approach that has been used by analysts down the years.

The alternative and more common approach is based on spouting blinkered opinion in the form of editorial, blind prejudice based on who one's mates are, hearsay from disgruntled players and things one might have heard down the pub. This is commonly referred to as "talking out of one's arse".

I know which approach holds more water for me.

You appear to have hit the nail on the head.

I notice RR hasn't responded, don't expect him to. The truth hurts sometimes...

[Guest Ron]

I've never denied that City are playing some good stuff and looking far fitter and stronger than when Johnson first took over.Its not necessary for people to list stats to show that.

My disapointment is about not being in the play-offs when City are playing so well.After the Southend game the season will be over and we'll end up watching teams playing far worse stuff than City fighting it out on TV.

I'll bet the players feel exactly the same.

So Jury's out on Johnson, seems fair to me. Although yesterday we may have turned a corner. It has been noticable that every time we look to be going somewhere it all comes crashing down. But yesterday, when the trend could have continued of the let downs, the team came out in the 2nd half and played a very good game, deservedly winning the 2nd half 2-0.

[Ian M]

Several posts on this thread have had to be removed due to them being abusive on a personal level.

Please feel free to discuss the points raised within the thread vehemently whilst remembering that personal insults will not be tolerated.

[Robbored]

Several posts on this thread have had to be removed due to them being abusive on a personal level.

Please feel free to discuss the points raised within the thread vehemently whilst remembering that personal insults will not be tolerated.

About time as well.I've been subjected to numerous personal insults over many months and only now do you act.Maybe thats because I haven't once complained to the mods about it.

That said,most of us are capable of discussing the points vehemently without resorting to personal insults.

[gazareth]

So Robbored is unrealistic when being optimistic and negative when being practical.

Hmm.

As for a figure no manager in our recent history has achieved - how about 9 losing games on the trot ? Worst of any manager since the club was formed.

Just an opinion, we are allowed opposite opinions aren't we ?

You're right, that run was absolutely disgraceful and he should not be forgiven for it, even if it did mean that it gave him the time and opportunity to get the squad in the state that he wanted. JOHNSON OUT

[Bristol Boy]

Much as I admire your diligence Madger, I do question what exactly it is you are trying to prove with all these stats.

In the final analysis City will still be playing in Division 1 next season.This is the stat that really matters.

I think what he's trying to prove is that, after, shall we say "a turbulent start" the team have come good and are playing winning football.

I blamed GJ for the hand grenade, rightly so in my view, so I have to be fair and give him credit in equal measure fot engineering the recovery

In fairness our form over the last 23 games is good enough to win this division IF it can be maintained over the course of next season.

In those 23 games we've almost played every team in the league so it's a fairer measurement than the current form league, in overall terma.

I'm optimistic about next season however much will depend on pre-season activity, so let's see.

One thing's for sure, I'd have bitten your arm off for 19th place, never mind 9th at Xmas

[Seend Red]

Much as I admire your diligence Madger, I do question what exactly it is you are trying to prove with all these stats.

In the final analysis City will still be playing in Division 1 next season.This is the stat that really matters.

Some people are never happy!! We are improving and GJ seems to of found a winning formula-Why will we be playing Division 1 next season? we're going up through the play-offs

[Ian M]

Much as I admire your diligence Madger, I do question what exactly it is you are trying to prove with all these stats.

In the final analysis City will still be playing in Division 1 next season.This is the stat that really matters.

I'm providing a tool that is being used by Gary Johnson to help motivate the players by showing them how good they are. In my own small way I am helping the team to improve.

I question what exactly it is you are trying to prove with all these moaning replies?

[Spud55]

So Robbored is unrealistic when being optimistic and negative when being practical.

Hmm.

As for a figure no manager in our recent history has achieved - how about 9 losing games on the trot ? Worst of any manager since the club was formed.

Just an opinion, we are allowed opposite opinions aren't we ?

Well, that'll show 'em.

No god damn it, we are city fans we must at all times believe things are hunky dory no matter what is going on, we can't have different opinions that would be a disgrace and deserves to be shot down with personal insults should anyone happen to disagree with them.

Johnson has turned us around, but it took him a good while to do it, nobody can answer for sure if a 9 game loosing streak was the necessary amount of time to turn it around, and that streak has undoubtedly almost certainly stopped us getting in the playoffs.

For me however the form since then has vindicated Johnson, and mabye it did need that horific run to show some players that their places wernt secure, mabye if he'd have put the sort of team we are putting out now slightly earlier it may have worked, but then again mabye they would have slipped back into the comfort zone and we would have been not much better for it. As it stands Johnson did what he felt he had to and we are where we are because of that, when he took over we were crap, when he finally sorted the team out how he wanted it, both in terms of personell an attitude of those players our form has been great, so i personally wouldn't criticise him too much.