The Future Of Otib

[M_Porter]

A portal ?

Good idea but how may off us had the otib forum bookmarked thus missing the bcfc main site ?

I expect 80% of us?

The S.T needs to make this pay for itselfs so it may be a case of over kill to start with just to make sure you/me and the rest of the internet users don't lose this forum.

IMO i have to add as i wasnt able to attend the meeting to discuss this subject

[City Exile]

Not in favour of membership fees full stop. Its the net for heavens sake!

Could live with adverts if in moderation, and see no reason why 'donations' with no pressure would upset anyone. I know other ones that have links to places like Amazon etc, where if people place ordrs through that route the hoster hets a small kick back.

[Jay]

I think maybe someone should approch BTC you never know?

Whilst we may all be supporters of the BCFC and the ST has care of this forum, I personally feel that we should look for other sponsors rather than BTC. The club choose to seperate themselves from this forum for a reason &, with that in mind, maybe we should stay seperate to them? I also doubt that BTC would be interested

Secondly, as Nibor has already said: Internet ad revenue is about volume, only a tiny percentage of people click the ad and doing so only gets you a tiny bit of cash so you need to display it as many times as possible and win by law of averages. Traffic to this site is good and it should appeal to a number of potential advertisers.

Personally, if a 'donate now' was set up, I know that I'd gladly throw in a few quid to help keep this forum afloat & I'm suire there are others like me. If we recieve an excess amount of cash then let's decide what to do with it as a collective group of fans (donate to a charity, invest in the club (players shirt sponsorship etc)).

[RedZepperin]

I think that the Forum should be free for everybody except for Supporters Club members who should be charged 5 pounds per season.

[RedTop]

I see absolutely no reason why the otib site, which the ST agreed to take on because they felt it fitted the organisation's brief, should be self-funding. As far as I am concerned, I believe it is perfectly appropriate for the Supporters Trust to fund the forum itself.

The Supporters Trust, which levies a fee from us members, has five central raisons d'etre. Three of those, to quote your own website, are:

* Represent the fans in dialogue with the Club

* Help the Club position itself as a hub of the community

* Encourage through its activities increased support for the Club

As such the forum surely represents a way of carrying out the core activity of the ST, and therefore a perfectly reasonable way of spending some of the £1 a month-plus that the members are contributing, especially when the first £2.50 of any monthly fee cannot go towards shares. It is also a crucial way for the ST to have direct contact with the fans they represent and to keep in touch with the feelings of fans, spot issues that need raising and, indeed, to lend weight and evidence of numbers to the ST's argument (as Milo's letter to the Evening Post demonstrates so brilliantly). Surely this is precisely the ongoing thing the ST should be carrying out without expecting it to be self-funding? This is exactly the sort of thing I was expecting my monthly dues to go towards.

I feel just as strongly that this principle should apply to whatever replacement for the Steve L forum is decided upon. Surely if the ST is carrying out its stated core aims and we are paying a monthly fee for this, we should not be expected to pay again for it at point of delivery.

[Nibor]

Even if I agreed that the ST should foot the bill, which I don't, the question then surely becomes "Why not get free money from advertising that will ultimately go to the club?"

If the ST wants to achieve it's core aim of raising enough cash to get a shareholding and representation then it would seem sensible not to spend money on things they don't have to.

[Guest]

Presumably, having taken on the forum you have taken ownership of the otib.co.uk domain as well.

No, that has and always has been, owned by Geoff/Clik Limited. Originally it was just purchase as Geoff is a domain name whore, but when http://www.bcfc.co.uk was taken away from Clik (we had registered it for bcfc and it was on our nameservers) and put under PTV's control it became more of a problem.

That said, there is some scope in what you say regarding mailboxes - if it could cover the costs then why not

[Bristol Boy]

Nothing with adware & spyware.

Nothing with popups!!

No unsolicited e mail

Apart from that I'll keep writing stuff for the ST Forum and hope that the hits will help them get some dough off the advertisers.

[Guest]

Nothing with adware & spyware.

No unsolicited e mail

I don't think ST would even think about that! The email database of OTIB would never be utalised for marketing purposes either.

Perhaps Marcus Stewart could donate a small percentage of his wages per month

[Ian M]

[Meh]

I did warn you!

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=52066&hl=

[Jay]

I did warn you!

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=52066&hl=

The Ask Steve L issue is still being worked on & isn't the point we're discussing here. Furthermore, so far no-one (including all members of the ST that I've spoken to) don;t like the idea of people paying a subscription to this forum.

As for Madgers suggestions - these are pretty wicked IMO. We need to generate enough to cover the Cliks fees for hosting this forum beyond that, should we generate any excess monies, why not use it to reward the very people that have helped generate it?

[CiderHider]

Well i can't say i like the idea of paying a subscription, who would? But in the interest of BCFC i can't criticise the ST looking for ways to bring money into the club.

I suppose i would be prepaired to pay a small donation to ensure the running of otib, but i must admit i don't have a clue what sort of money is involved in running this forum, or indeed the revinue that could be gained from ad's on it.

Either way, i'm not too fussed about ad's, but i feel the addition of them would dilute otib.

I'm for paying a donation, but it's not up to me.

[Jay]

I'm for paying a donation, but it's not up to me.

Umm...well, it is....kinda. More to the point, it's up to all of us.

[chubba]

Hello people,

A quick word to say I am the person who has put the current ST site together (please don't cuss the design - it was the best I could do in short time and as a freebie!) and also the person behind tactics internet who has helped so far with advertising etc on the trust site and forum mock up with the right hand advertising column.

I will hang my head in shame and say that I was totally against letting the forum members have a say in how the advertising on OTIB should be handled as I was expecting the same kind of slating that the ST got when they took over the forum.

I am always pleased to be proved wrong and I hope that most of the time I am open and honest enough to admit it

The discussion here is great and some wicked ideas have been presented and gives the trust a huge amount to look into while the decision is made to how the advertising and revenue generation from the forum is looked into.

Some superb ideas from Nibor - cheers guv'. I will say that I have been pressing for right hand colum ads as this space tends to commands the best click throughs and therefore the best results for advertisers whether they be Google AdSense ads or the small banner ads that we demonstrated on the forum mockup.

Top ads tend to work best on landing pages from natural search engine listings where the end user is looking for information and stumbles across the site from Google or the search engine of choice, I am not sure what the CTR would be from top / bottom ads on the forum but they joys of advertising here is things can be tried, tested and tested, measured and changed, until the solution that best fits the forum and the fans is found.

Totally agree with not making the forum subscription based - it would kill it off IMO.

Thanks for the ideas and input, I am sure that this forum has the user base to generate enough cash to keep the forum running and quite possibly generate some extra cash for the competitions and prizes which may help keep interest in the site (like the wicked season we have to come is not enough!) and would keep this forum as the only forum a city fan (or opposition fan) really needs to visit.

The email database of OTIB would never be utalised for marketing purposes either.

Why? If on subscribing to the forum users have accepted they can be mailed by moderators then why not use this list to market things that users should be interested in? I would not suggest sending spammy mail but for example the Toffs shirts that Mark Tovey hooked us up with are wicked and I am sure if this was marketed to subscribers well the take up would be huge.

If there is an issue of prior consent not being asked for in regards to marketing then is it possible to add another tick box to sign up to ask if we can contact with selected marketing and promotional offers? That way people are opting in and we can market to them as offers become available.

Keep it real - keep it red.

Chubba

[Nibor]

Chubba

No need to apologise for the ST site, I think it's a great job.

RE the sidebar ads: I agree they're more revenue, and if we were talking about a content type site with news articles etc I'd say go for it. I just think that with the forum being in table format, and already having lost 150pixels or so on the left, it'd bring the content of posts down to only a few words per line in 800x600.

I think Madger's right and a combo of the ideas is good, I also like Milo's idea of a "boutique" - we all buy stuff online anyway so why not do it from here and get some cash?

I still reckon the best bet is to just implement something and see what sort of revenue it gets, and fine tune it and add more as you go. A paypal donate link for a start to see what response it gets might even make the rest superfluous

Nibor

[elko]

try a pay pal donate to forum link, i'm sure people will donate some funds instead of

being asked to pay a subscription.

This is a good idea. Before using ads, try the option of donation, possibly anonymous. Some forums work well this way.

Basically Madger's post is spot on, though.

[chubba]

Hi Nibor - thanks for the comments (cheque is in the post!)

The main pages being viewed on the forum will be threads though - and these do not contain the left hand navigation so the only thing restricting the width of posts would be the advertising column on the right hand side.

Due to the templating nature of Invision Power Board I have not yet got into the guts to see if I can change it so the ads only appear on threads and not the home page so I do agree that the home page would be a little cramped.

I have resized browser to 800 x 600 (people any with 640 x 480 should be shot) and the ST forum is still legible - the only thing that may be a problem on this site is the people who upload signature images that are a little on the wide side.

Yup - boutique idea is a winner! Afilliate deals usually work well for the advertiser, good brand awareness for a fairly small payout so if we actively promote the boutique and we make sure we click through from here then this could work really well and we could generate some decent cash to ensure the forum carries on.

Donate now could work well but with having just shelled out on season tickets, joined the trust at a monthly fee (we have all joined haven't we?) then coughing up again to keep otib up and running may be seen as too much for some. Maybe I should get my clients to make their cheques for services payable to BCFC and have done with it

[Nibor]

Cheque's much appreciated!

When I switch to 800x600 when actually reading a thread I get the left quarter of the screen as the cells with user name etc in, the right quarter being the ad bar, and the middle half being the content with about 8 words per line... it seems to crowded to me. But then I do normally use 1280x1024 so I could just be suffering withdrawal. You're right, anyone using 640x480 should be shot. For their own good

[lukejones2]

MY PERSONAL VIEWS:

Subscription fees are a no go. Would kill everything that the forum is about and also go against the ethos of the ST. Worth suggesting but no.

Shopping forum = Yes. Definitely. Completely out of our way unless we want to look at it and may fund otib on its own eventually. For now, it would need to be set up with other advertising space covering the costs as the funding from this source would not be guaranteed. We could reduce other adverts if the "shopping forum" goes well.

Pop ups = No. Intrusive.

Donate now button = yes, add it. People don't have to use it.

Other advertising = Banner at the top giving regular guaranteed income would be good provided it doesnt add too much to the page loading times, and we could have other smaller ads at the bottom (as are on the right hand side of the ST site). Basically one row at the top, one row at the bottom.

I think that, reading the suggestions so far, this solution would please most people and provide enough income.

Advertising would be best IMO. What sort of ball park fee would be involved? PM me if you like.

I think it is important that we estabish how we are going to proceed before finding advertisors and talking costs. We are not yet in a position to give an asking price as it will depend on the type of adverts and any competition for those adverts. Needless to say we would be looking to get the best deal for the ST, the club, and the users of OTIB.

We are also unable to discuss the quantum of the Clik fees for the forum as clearly it is commercially sensitive information.

Not keen on paying a subscription and wouldn't want those annoying pop up adverts either.

Does it really cost thousands of pounds...????

Somehow, and I don't want to knock anybodys efforts, but I feel this is the beginning of the end of OTIB.

Yes it does, and I think you are being overly negative without good reason.

I did warn you!

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=52066&hl=

To be fair Neo, the ST are not intending charging for forum use or to use the old SL forum when it is replaced. It has been key all along that users of the ask SL forum do not have to pay to contact the chairman, and that there are no charges for the service that was previously provided free of charge. This was scaremongering at the time and is still equally untrue.

Subscription fees are a way of raising funds and therefore I think it was appropriate that i was put out there for users to discuss. I don't want it, no other users seem to want it and I think it appears safe to suggest that it won't happen.

I see absolutely no reason why the otib site, which the ST agreed to take on because they felt it fitted the organisation's brief, should be self-funding. As far as I am concerned, I believe it is perfectly appropriate for the Supporters Trust to fund the forum itself.

The Supporters Trust, which levies a fee from us members, has five central raisons d'etre. Three of those, to quote your own website, are:

* Represent the fans in dialogue with the Club

* Help the Club position itself as a hub of the community

* Encourage through its activities increased support for the Club

As such the forum surely represents a way of carrying out the core activity of the ST, and therefore a perfectly reasonable way of spending some of the £1 a month-plus that the members are contributing, especially when the first £2.50 of any monthly fee cannot go towards shares. It is also a crucial way for the ST to have direct contact with the fans they represent and to keep in touch with the feelings of fans, spot issues that need raising and, indeed, to lend weight and evidence of numbers to the ST's argument (as Milo's letter to the Evening Post demonstrates so brilliantly). Surely this is precisely the ongoing thing the ST should be carrying out without expecting it to be self-funding? This is exactly the sort of thing I was expecting my monthly dues to go towards.

I feel just as strongly that this principle should apply to whatever replacement for the Steve L forum is decided upon. Surely if the ST is carrying out its stated core aims and we are paying a monthly fee for this, we should not be expected to pay again for it at point of delivery.

RT, this is interesting and whilst I agree that OTIB does meet the objectives of the Trust, I don't feel that the Trust currently have enough membership income to support the forum. The quantum of the OTIB fees exceeds the total membership income quite considerably as things stand and it wouldn't represent value for money for members for all membership fees to be spent on this forum rather than on increasing the membership base, raising profile, assisting Bristol City in other areas and buying shares in the club.

I guess it is a matter of opinion, but that is mine. To clarify though, your comment "when the first £2.50 of any monthly fee cannot go towards shares." is inaccurate. It can be spent on shares, but membership fees in excess of £2.50 per month can ONLY be sent on shares.

[bcfc seattle]

One missed possibility is just to have a page of links to websites that give you back a % of sales. I know I do much of the purchasing at my workplace and would be willing to link to some of our vendors through a page here (Dell, apple (don't ask), Office Depot, Staples, Buy.com, bestbuy, etc.)

Might be an issue as this is a UK site and I'm over here in the USA, but if I'm willing to do it I'm sure others are as well.

[lukejones2]

One missed possibility is just to have a page of links to websites that give you back a % of sales. I know I do much of the purchasing at my workplace and would be willing to link to some of our vendors through a page here (Dell, apple (don't ask), Office Depot, Staples, Buy.com, bestbuy, etc.)

Might be an issue as this is a UK site and I'm over here in the USA, but if I'm willing to do it I'm sure others are as well.

This is essentially the idea of the shopping forum.

To my understanding, the revenue generated from these ads in the past two months would be enough to cover the two months' worth of admin fees for this forum (otib)

It is not enough to cover the hosting costs of OTIB. If we get scaled up levels of income scaled up on the same ratio as the visitor numbers then the ST adverts indicate that OTIB advertising would generate enough funds.

[Stoke_Gifford_Red]

I am just going to put in my two-pence worth. Firstly I think teh idea of subscription is bad and appears to have been discarded, which is very good. Secondly the idea that there will be adds on the side could cause problems, and I know this may be impossible, but when people make long posts would it be possible to put adds in the empty space below the avatar/user profile section.

I also think the idea of a shopping forum would be great, and in the past I suggested this very topic and I think it was CS who said that it was not possible to do this, as PTV don't allow a club to earn money from a non PTV forum, but I suppose as this is no longer the club's forum it could work. Also it is interesting to note that online sales are still increasing.

The idea of what to do with the surplus would be needed to be looked at, if indeed that point is reached. I would recommend a vote on what should be done with the excess. The idea of giving it out the posters in the form of prizes and would complement well the poster of the season etc votes. Secondly there is the option of using it to help fund the ST/buy shares in the club. This seems like a good idea, and one which would need to be looked at.

[Maesknoll Red]

My opinion on any excess funds generated, is that they should be used for the benefit of all fans, whether that be a donation to the academy, a contribution to ground improvements or sponsoring a player.

I wouldn't like to see pop-ups or any ads that fill up your hard drive with tracker cookies etc. It would seem that a shopping forum and top or bottom banner ads would be the most acceptable.

I also have my doubts about voluntary donations, if any one felt strongly about it I wouldn't want to stop them, but I wouldn't be keen on actively pursuing them, I feel that it may create a "my donation was bigger than yours" atmosphere.

[Jay]

I also have my doubts about voluntary donations, if any one felt strongly about it I wouldn't want to stop them, but I wouldn't be keen on actively pursuing them, I feel that it may create a "my donation was bigger than yours" atmosphere.

Without wishing to sound heavy handed, we could adjust the forum rules so that all donations remain anonymous & any person posting a £figure ina thread will have it removed.

[Maesknoll Red]

Whilst it appears that an overwhelming majority of respondents reject the idea of paying a subscription for OTIB, I wonder if any would consider paying a small subscription to a over 18's, less moderated forum, within OTIB?

The forum could be a singular forum or perhaps contain a couple of sub forums, it might encourage those who get fed up with the school holiday posts - "where do you sit", "what cars do the players drive" etc etc.

[Taz]

No offence but if the only way to participate on this forum would be through an annual subscription, then I for one would no longer require an active account.

2-3 years ago when the forum was at it's "peak", then you could have considered it. In comparison now it's a load of old tosh, and something that I would not pay for.

[Nibor]

Whilst it appears that an overwhelming majority of respondents reject the idea of paying a subscription for OTIB, I wonder if any would consider paying a small subscription to a over 18's, less moderated forum, within OTIB?

I would.

Then I feel it's misleading to state on the membership application section of your website that "all funds over £2.50 per month enter the Share Fund. This fund will only be used to secure the Supporters Trust a permanent place on the board of Bristol City Football Club. Please read important notes on the Application Form."

Whilst I accept it does not state that money up to this level won't be used for that purpose, the implication is there - given that no mention is made on the page of how money up to the £2.50 will be used - and that is how I read it. Hence I specifically joined at £1 a month because I did NOT want any of my dues going towards share purchases by the ST.

There's no implication, the language and the intent are perfectly clear. The whole meaning of the sentence is a guarantee that money over XXX amount will only be used for one purpose, not a guarantee that money below that amount won't. The literature states very clearly what the aims of the ST are, one of the key ones being to become a shareholder.

[RED4LIFE]

I wouldnt mind at all if ads were on the OTIB site, but I wouldnt ever pay a subscription to be able to post my views on the forum.

I feel if the Subcider forum can operate without an annual subscription, with far less members than OTIB, why should an 'official' forum have to?

I have made a lot of cyberspace friends on the forum, who share my views of what I feel is happening down the'gate' and to lose them would be a wrench, but even if I bought a subscription, the vast majority wouldnt, so whats the point?

[Nibor]

I feel if the Subcider forum can operate without an annual subscription, with far less members than OTIB, why should an 'official' forum have to?

Whilst I agree that paying a subscription would be bad, it's worth pointing out that OTIB having far more members and therefore using far more bandwidth and requiring more admin and more hardware is why there needs to be a way to pay for it.