How Much?

[Tom Fleuriot]

So, if someone wanted to buy the club, how much would it cost?

Is this an eventual aim of the supporters' trust? If we accept now that we'll never have, or even want a Siberian shyster (Don't worry, the High Court says that's not racist), could it be done?

If the Supporters' Trust guaranteed to ringfence 98% of contributions into a fund buying City, and 10,000 City supporters paid £30 a month average (say a £20 minimum), that would be £12m (+ interest) in 4 years. Assuming there was all documentation allowing people a % share in voting or something, with a maximum % vote ownership of 0.5%, could this not work?

I reckon I could stretch to £25 a month, If I knew that £24.50 would go to buying the club, with a guaranteed offer of all funds less 1(ish)% returned after 5 years if the ST failed to buy the club.

Of course, if it costs £30 million then it's pointless, and you'd have to get hold of the Stadium company as well, but it would make the club far more inclusive, and looks to be working for Barcelona, FC UNited, and Brentford. It would also make all the whinging (a) less suspicious of motives, and (b) more realistic, constructive and effective.

So I guess the first question to ask is, how much would it cost & is it therefore a realistic aim? If we took into account debt, 2(ish) years' running costs, buying out current owners, and then maybe £250k or so for new players?

[cheshire_red]

Laugh, you wouldn't get 100 people let alone 10,000.

Such financial naivity is quite well.........

As someone once said, "The only way to make a small fortune in football is to start with big one"

now where's me calculator...........

[Tom Fleuriot]

Laugh, you wouldn't get 100 people let alone 10,000.

Such financial naivity is quite well.........

As someone once said, "The only way to make a small fortune in football is to start with big one"

now where's me calculator...........

Yeah, 10,000 is clearly over the top, and that was a bit of speculation.

Someone else said "The only way to make a large fortune is through the contributions of others"

So ignoring my financial naivety, what is that would prevent you from joining such a scheme?

[cheshire_red]

Why would I want to pay £30 a month to buy .001% of my club when others whom I trust, though don't agree with a few of their decisions, own the shares and do as good a job as most could do and importantly cover our losses which a Trust simply couldn't do, as has been proven elsewhere.

[nester]

call me naive but I'd go for it.

[Tom Fleuriot]

call me naive but I'd go for it.

Why would I want to pay £30 a month to buy .001% of my club when others whom I trust, though don't agree with a few of their decisions, own the shares and do as good a job as most could do and importantly cover our losses which a Trust simply couldn't do, as has been proven elsewhere.

Cheshire, I hear what you're saying.

But I'd rather be employing people I trust than watching them and crossing my fingers that they don't turn into, or sell to, the next Michael Knighton (incidentally, the current board has my full support).

You could even say that the fund would be a backup in case the current owners decide to divest themselves of the club, ensuring supporters are in the strongest position. It needn't be hostile.

My point is also that if the club is making losses, it is time to stop looking for short-term solutions (promotion, interest-free loans), and make the hard choices that in the long run would be beneficial for the club. I'd rather see an ST body do it than people I trust.

(EDIT - I mean people I have to take on trust)

I'd rather have 0.001% of my vote count than try "not buying programmes" to make a point. That's all about how the club is structured, and if structured correctly your 0.001% would have far more influence. It's better to have influence that way than by being bothered to knock up a website.

But back to my point, how much would it cost?

[cheshire_red]

SL stated £30m about a year ago. Presume you knew this as your figure of £30 per month from 10k suggests.

[Tom Fleuriot]

SL stated £30m about a year ago. Presume you knew this as your figure of £30 per month from 10k suggests.

Didn't know that at all - £30 per month from 10,000 people would take 8-9 years.

Assuming 100 people take it up we're talking 900 years.

[cheshire_red]

Didn't know that at all - £30 per month from 10,000 people would take 8-9 years.

Assuming 100 people take it up we're talking 900 years.

And there my friend you have it, £30pm down t'drain.

[Antman]

SL stated £30m about a year ago. Presume you knew this as your figure of £30 per month from 10k suggests.

£30M would do Mr L very nicely I imagine.

If that is his stated value, it kind of puts into perspective his generous 'loans' and how they are secured.

Look at our year on year debt, what is it now £9m+?

is that £30M based on the land sale price for the ground? if so that's unrealistic.

what other assets could you put it against though?

certainly not the players - an intangible asset if there ever was one!!

If SL is saying it would take £30M to cleanly buy out the club from the current shareholders I think it's clear he's in no hurry to get investment in!

[bransonmo]

£30M would do Mr L very nicely I imagine.

If that is his stated value, it kind of puts into perspective his generous 'loans' and how they are secured.

Look at our year on year debt, what is it now £9m+?

is that £30M based on the land sale price for the ground? if so that's unrealistic.

what other assets could you put it against though?

certainly not the players - an intangible asset if there ever was one!!

[if SL is saying it would take £30M to cleanly buy out the club from the current shareholders I think it's clear he's in no hurry to get investment in!]

Is the 30m for the club, or the club including the ground. My understanding is the ground is a seperate corporation, also owned by SL et al, and would be leased to person buying the club.

You mention a year on year debt, so look at the club download of the contracted BCFC professionals and associated staff. Only the Pope is missing, its a wage bill befitting a club of 25,000+ for home games, not 10,000 and going down. Yet we continually have fans saying sign this one and that one, without thought for the cost. L Johnsons wages, tax and insurance etc will cost 100,000pa at least. Most of the senior players will average out to a similar amount.

SL is on record as saying he will only sell the CLUB to someone he thinks will take the club forward, hopefully better than he has. As I see it, the clubs debt has increased under his management, and the money he lovingly puts into the club is repayable by the club........its not a gift !

Ashton Gate is a different purchase, so now we can buy the club OR the real estate, I wonder how much for both ?

Impossible to maintain that big a squad and an Academy. Somewhere in the middle is the answer. IMO a squad of 20 maximum with the Academy as back up.

Milo is on line and may enlighten us?

[Milo]

SL has put himself on record talking about a new buyer needing £30M which included a large transfer kitty and possibly a premium on selling the shares.

To buy all the shares at £2 a share (the price the Trust just bought at) you'd need between £7M and £8M. You'd then need to repay loans of around £4M to £5M. You'd also need the shareholders to be willing to sell for £2 a share but they might want more than that. I think to realistically own the whole Club you'd have to have about £15M.

At £30pm you would inevitably exclude many fans from joining in because of affordability. If you wanted the Club owned by the fans with fans electing decision makers you'd ideally want the fund raising at an inclusive price. For example, everyone who wanted to join would pay £1 a month and if fans could and wanted to pay more they'd put in £5 or more a month. At these levels you wouldn't need the caveat of having to buy at a certain date as they're hopefully at a level where people are comfortable gifting.

The average contribution per Trust member is about £30 a year. It needs alot of members, alot of good fund raising campaigns and alot of time before it can become a significant shareholder, let alone have sufficient funds to buy the Club outright. That's why owning the Club is not a current aim. It's a completely impractical objective. But if the Trust had been started 20 years ago who knows where we'd be today and who knows where we'll be in 10 or 20 years time?

[badger22]

SL stated £30m about a year ago. Presume you knew this as your figure of £30 per month from 10k suggests.

£30m????? With the way things are going this season and the amount of jip SL gets for spending his own cash on the club, l'd sell for a packet of walkers and a Mars bar

[Milo]

Is the 30m for the club, or the club including the ground. My understanding is the ground is a seperate corporation, also owned by SL et al, and would be leased to person buying the club.

You mention a year on year debt, so look at the club download of the contracted BCFC professionals and associated staff. Only the Pope is missing, its a wage bill befitting a club of 25,000+ for home games, not 10,000 and going down. Yet we continually have fans saying sign this one and that one, without thought for the cost. L Johnsons wages, tax and insurance etc will cost 100,000pa at least. Most of the senior players will average out to a similar amount.

SL is on record as saying he will only sell the CLUB to someone he thinks will take the club forward, hopefully better than he has. As I see it, the clubs debt has increased under his management, and the money he lovingly puts into the club is repayable by the club........its not a gift !

Ashton Gate is a different purchase, so now we can buy the club OR the real estate, I wonder how much for both ?

Impossible to maintain that big a squad and an Academy. Somewhere in the middle is the answer. IMO a squad of 20 maximum with the Academy as back up.

Milo is on line and may enlighten us?

The £30M quoted is for the Holding company which (currently) includes both 100% of the shares in Ashton Gate Stadium Ltd and 100% of shares in BCFC Ltd.

The maths for the Academy stack up nicely now after years of investment but I agree with you about the wider pay-roll. I'd like to see us starting to make a profit so that we can get some of the debt repaid and as our biggest bill is staff that's the obvious place to look at. Interestingly when the Bees Trust took over Brentford they changed the players contracts significantly so that they had lower salaries but were rewarded more for success. Last time I checked they were making a profit as well as competing for promotion with seemingly highly motivated players.

[SE23Red]

SL has put himself on record talking about a new buyer needing £30M which included a large transfer kitty and possibly a premium on selling the shares.

To buy all the shares at £2 a share (the price the Trust just bought at) you'd need between £7M and £8M. You'd then need to repay loans of around £4M to £5M. You'd also need the shareholders to be willing to sell for £2 a share but they might want more than that. I think to realistically own the whole Club you'd have to have about £15M.

At £30pm you would inevitably exclude many fans from joining in because of affordability. If you wanted the Club owned by the fans with fans electing decision makers you'd ideally want the fund raising at an inclusive price. For example, everyone who wanted to join would pay £1 a month and if fans could and wanted to pay more they'd put in £5 or more a month. At these levels you wouldn't need the caveat of having to buy at a certain date as they're hopefully at a level where people are comfortable gifting.

The average contribution per Trust member is about £30 a year. It needs alot of members, alot of good fund raising campaigns and alot of time before it can become a significant shareholder, let alone have sufficient funds to buy the Club outright. That's why owning the Club is not a current aim. It's a completely impractical objective. But if the Trust had been started 20 years ago who knows where'd we be today and who knows where we'll be in 10 or 20 years time?

Where are the shares for the trust coming from - are they newly issued or buying from existing shareholders?

[Milo]

Where are the shares for the trust coming from - are they newly issued or buying from existing shareholders?

It's a new issue so all money has gone into the Club's coffers. The money has been earmarked to improve the Abbots Leigh training ground.

[Antman]

Is the 30m for the club, or the club including the ground. My understanding is the ground is a seperate corporation, also owned by SL et al, and would be leased to person buying the club.

You mention a year on year debt, so look at the club download of the contracted BCFC professionals and associated staff. Only the Pope is missing, its a wage bill befitting a club of 25,000+ for home games, not 10,000 and going down. Yet we continually have fans saying sign this one and that one, without thought for the cost. L Johnsons wages, tax and insurance etc will cost 100,000pa at least. Most of the senior players will average out to a similar amount.

SL is on record as saying he will only sell the CLUB to someone he thinks will take the club forward, hopefully better than he has. As I see it, the clubs debt has increased under his management, and the money he lovingly puts into the club is repayable by the club........its not a gift !

Ashton Gate is a different purchase, so now we can buy the club OR the real estate, I wonder how much for both ?

Impossible to maintain that big a squad and an Academy. Somewhere in the middle is the answer. IMO a squad of 20 maximum with the Academy as back up

Obviously Mr L has only a percentage of shares in the club. his return of that £30M would be pro rata.

but given the loss making situation we are, and have been in for some considerable time, my feeling is this figure is hugely inflated to allow directors to reap the benefit for their loans.

Now you may argue that that's fair enough - why shouldn't SL benefit from putting his cash in. I would agree. But given that he is more than likely to get a healthy return on his investment lets stop treating him as our 'saviour' and deal with him as the investor/speculator/profiteer ? he is.

Ultimately why on earth would someone pay that amount for BCFC? unless you want a large fortune much smaller.

If (and I emphasise the 'IF') we were to continue to rack up debts presumably the ground is insured against these losses by them being in another company. - as the lease for playing at AG would be held by BCFC the company that owns the ground would be a creditor. However the fear would be that SL could make a move in these circumstance to realise assets in the form of a sale of the ground. This would ensure his 'loans' are paid in full and more whilst creditors in the actual football club would be left whistling.

(this is idle speculation of course and is only my point of view, certainly not that of anyone else, oh no, absolutely not...no way jose! - happy with that OTIB? since you chose to re-word another of my posts relating to SL in the past! the phrase 'tighten up yer panties boy' springs to mind when I think of the way people on here skulk around this debate for fear of 'upsetting' SL. Get a ******** grip)

My take on this is that I am a shareholder of a business (i AM actually a shareholder) and I want the chairman to be as accountable as that of a business that was making year on losses and failing to perform.

If that chairman asked you to vote the main assets out of that company into another one, in which you didn't have shares but he/she did, would you? I think not - I wouldn't, and didn't but it seems thats what has happened - unless I'm mistaken. (which is easily acheivable mind!)

shoot the bosses.

PS - whilst tip tapping all this bollocks in. I missed MILO's posts

I think his estimates of 15M stack up much more.

The maths for the Academy stack up nicely now after years of investment but I agree with you about the wider pay-roll. I'd like to see us starting to make a profit so that we can get some of the debt repaid and as our biggest bill is staff that's the obvious place to look at. Interestingly when the Bees Trust took over Brentford they changed the players contracts significantly so that they had lower salaries but were rewarded more for success. Last time I checked they were making a profit as well as competing for promotion with seemingly highly motivated players.

I'm assuming we don't apply that to our players, but wonder why on earth why we don't?!!

given the perilous state of football the lower the basic salary is the better. success increases turnover and so players share in that - what better incentive for winning.

it's not rocket science, but why don't more teams employ it.

[Milo]

Obviously Mr L has only a percentage of shares in the club. his return of that £30M would be pro rata.

but given the loss making situation we are, and have been in for some considerable time, my feeling is this figure is hugely inflated to allow directors to reap the benefit for their loans.

Now you may argue that that's fair enough - why shouldn't SL benefit from putting his cash in. I would agree. But given that he is more than likely to get a healthy return on his investment lets stop treating him as our 'saviour' and deal with him as the investor/speculator/profiteer ? he is.

Ultimately why on earth would someone pay that amount for BCFC? unless you want a large fortune much smaller.

If (and I emphasise the 'IF') we were to continue to rack up debts presumably the ground is insured against these losses by them being in another company. - as the lease for playing at AG would be held by BCFC the company that owns the ground would be a creditor. However the fear would be that SL could make a move in these circumstance to realise assets in the form of a sale of the ground. This would ensure his 'loans' are paid in full and more whilst creditors in the actual football club would be left whistling.

(this is idle speculation of course and is only my point of view, certainly not that of anyone else, oh no, absolutely not...no way jose! - happy with that OTIB? since you chose to re-word another of my posts relating to SL in the past! the phrase 'tighten up yer panties boy' springs to mind when I think of the way people on here skulk around this debate for fear of 'upsetting' SL. Get a fuccking grip)

My take on this is that I am a shareholder of a business (i AM actually a shareholder) and I want the chairman to be as accountable as that of a business that was making year on losses and failing to perform.

If that chairman asked you to vote the main assets out of that company into another one, in which you didn't have shares but he/she did, would you? I think not - I wouldn't, and didn't but it seems thats what has happened - unless I'm mistaken. (which is easily acheivable mind!)

shoot the bosses.

PS - whilst tip tapping all this bollocks in. I missed MILO's posts

I think his estimates of 15M stack up much more.

I'm assuming we don't apply that to our players, but wonder why on earth why we don't?!!

given the perilous state of football the lower the basic salary is the better. success increases turnover and so players share in that - what better incentive for winning.

it's not rocket science, but why don't more teams employ it.

If you own BCFC Holdings shares, which I think you'll find you do, then you still own the ground, just in a different company owned by Holdings. If the current debt owed to SL and KD is converted to equity in a few years time (in line with a motion passed at the last AGM) then they'll own 75% of the Holdings company. As majority shareholders in Holdings they would have pretty much carte blanche to sell assets of that company. However, that's just theory and there's no reason to suspect this might happen - more likely that it would simply improve the value of their collective stake relative to other shareholders should a future buyer step forward.

[bransonmo]

The £30M quoted is for the Holding company which (currently) includes both 100% of the shares in Ashton Gate Stadium Ltd and 100% of shares in BCFC Ltd.

The maths for the Academy stack up nicely now after years of investment but I agree with you about the wider pay-roll. I'd like to see us starting to make a profit so that we can get some of the debt repaid and as our biggest bill is staff that's the obvious place to look at. Interestingly when the Bees Trust took over Brentford they changed the players contracts significantly so that they had lower salaries but were rewarded more for success. Last time I checked they were making a profit as well as competing for promotion with seemingly highly motivated players.

Thankyou Milo. A good time and motion study, a squad pruning and performance contracts. All things required to balance the books. Bristol Boy can confirm that a group of us have been sniffing at this for nearly a year, other interests have kept things in limbo.

As I see it BCFC is not a profitable investment, not for 30m. I can put that on the Isle of Man in a tax free currancy investment account with Barclays and live very well. At the moment SL is steering the ship, trouble is , it wont reach the desired destination with holes in the sails.

[no_merde]

If you own BCFC Holdings shares, which I think you'll find you do, then you still own the ground, just in a different company owned by Holdings. If the current debt owed to SL and KD is converted to equity in a few years time (in line with a motion passed at the last AGM) then they'll own 75% of the Holdings company. As majority shareholders in Holdings they would have pretty much carte blanche to sell assets of that company. However, that's just theory and there's no reason to suspect this might happen - more likely that it would simply improve the value of their collective stake relative to other shareholders should a future buyer step forward.

SL been trying to get out for the past 18 months - its been all round the professionals sector in Bristol. I seem to remember he's entertaining offers to sell equity stake, *as well* as others, to form a controlling stake.

The convertible to Class A ordinary shares at the AGM leads me to think that he is looking to take his cash out as dividends from the lease on the ground / and or potential property development, should BCFC move elsewhere / become insolvent. It also provides him with a suitable level of security with regard to a possible administration scenario.

Just my two pence worth...

[Tom Fleuriot]

SL has put himself on record talking about a new buyer needing £30M which included a large transfer kitty and possibly a premium on selling the shares.

To buy all the shares at £2 a share (the price the Trust just bought at) you'd need between £7M and £8M. You'd then need to repay loans of around £4M to £5M. You'd also need the shareholders to be willing to sell for £2 a share but they might want more than that. I think to realistically own the whole Club you'd have to have about £15M.

At £30pm you would inevitably exclude many fans from joining in because of affordability. If you wanted the Club owned by the fans with fans electing decision makers you'd ideally want the fund raising at an inclusive price. For example, everyone who wanted to join would pay £1 a month and if fans could and wanted to pay more they'd put in £5 or more a month. At these levels you wouldn't need the caveat of having to buy at a certain date as they're hopefully at a level where people are comfortable gifting.

The average contribution per Trust member is about £30 a year. It needs alot of members, alot of good fund raising campaigns and alot of time before it can become a significant shareholder, let alone have sufficient funds to buy the Club outright. That's why owning the Club is not a current aim. It's a completely impractical objective. But if the Trust had been started 20 years ago who knows where we'd be today and who knows where we'll be in 10 or 20 years time?

It occurs to me now that if I'd known anything about the Supporters' Trust I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place, seeing as you're doing this scheme but more intelligently

How many shares does the ST have in comparison to total shares at present, and if shares are always new issue, doesn't it send the Trust back to square 1 in terms of levels of influence, the minute someone comes in like the chap a few weeks back, and buys more new issue shares?

[aller g]

i've got shares in the club and my name is on some board, or so my old man says.

does it count for anything, or does it depend on how much.

[havanatopia]

So, if someone wanted to buy the club, how much would it cost?

3 shillings and 6 pence.

[Milo]

It occurs to me now that if I'd known anything about the Supporters' Trust I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place, seeing as you're doing this scheme but more intelligently

How many shares does the ST have in comparison to total shares at present, and if shares are always new issue, doesn't it send the Trust back to square 1 in terms of levels of influence, the minute someone comes in like the chap a few weeks back, and buys more new issue shares?

I'm glad you gave the opportunity for us to expand on the Trust. The link at the foot of my posts allows you to download an application form or visit www.bristolcityst.org.uk for more details

Without double checking my facts (and not knowing how many shares were issued at the same time as ours and Ernie Arathoon's were) I reckon there are about 3,500,000 shares in issue, of which the Trust owns 2,500 and have been given proxy for a further 1,000+. That makes 0.1%. Early doors as Big Ron might say.

On the issue of new shares or buy existing ones, as most fans want money raised to be used by the Club buying new shares gets the nod. This dilutes the share holding for everyone not just the Trust.

[screech]

If Steve Lansdown values City at £30M then Randy Lerner must have been laughing all the way to the bank when he only paid double for Aston Villa.

The two clubs are not even on the same page as each other when it comes to wealth, success, support and potential.

[solo1bc]

Interesting idea Baird but are there any other examples where this has worked with other clubs (ones that haven't been in administration that is)