Academy Philosophy

[Antman]

Put aside the rights and wrongs of this transfer, lets have a think about the academy and what signal is sent out to players and potential players.

Firstl, Great - lets applaud how many youngsters are moving on to greater things, higher division clubs and some for good money (sign on clauses for the player/agent/parent/hangeron)

what does this say - we don't really intend to keep you. Really the academy is about making future transfer deals. so if you come here you will have one eye on where you can spring off to at the first instance?

Maybe that means the player will play to the extent of their ability because they need to get seen. One thing it will mean is that potential recruits won't give much of a thought to what BCFC means to them, and therein lies a problem - we are losing the heart, the soul of this club. look at our first team, we have a collection of jobbing footballers familier with the lower leagues, driven on by a lower league manager. Players with little more love for the club than for the nearest nightclub (where they can get into a scrap in) They'll be holding up the next shirt just as soon as their contract runs out, and it makes not a blind bit of difference to them - why should it if they get paid well.

As for youngsters, The good ones move on, thats the signal. Not that BCFC wants you here, REALLY wants you here to fight for promotion, even to the point where they might turn away a deal in the short term.

Of course 'heart and soul' are perhaps, old fashioned principles that have long since evapourated from football. Hell it's a business after all! but the academy should be more than that - to properly nurture the talent we can clearly access, we should be imbuing a sense of pride and belief in this club, OUR club.

That fire and enthusiasm translates to the terrace and to the stand, it translates into an appreciable effort that is applauded by paying fans resulting (allied to decent management) in success on the field.

and that success is the key to financial stability and success.

Selling our young players is only helping to give us another bucket to bail out our slowly sinking ship. It doesn't address the underlying problems.

Perhaps if we fixed the leaks, these young stars would help us actually get up through the divisions.

Selling players should be to acheive key strategic success through realising them as assets at a time that works for the team and the club, not on a reactive, almost panic led basis.

We need to be nurturing the up coming youngsters much more effectively, we should have maybe two or three playing regularly before we sell one of them on.

So what do the coaches tell the kids? heads up think of the money, 'cos this club doesn't really want you.

or heads up play with pride, because you can help BCFC get somewhere.

[megansdad]

can't be bothered to read the whole lot but some of this is just nonsense:

"Not that BCFC wants you here, REALLY wants you here to fight for promotion, even to the point where they might turn away a deal in the short term."

Please tell me how we could have shown DC we wanted him more than by him being with us from the age of 10 and by recently extending his contract - should we have implanted a chip in his brain?

As I asked on another post what exactly would you have us have done? he had the opportunity to move on and wanted to take it. Sure we could have won promotion last season and that would have helped but we tried and didn't make it - short of that please tell me what you would have done yesterday to keep DC and what message that would have sent to younger players about the club.

[Antman]

can't be bothered to read the whole lot but some of this is just nonsense:

well, there you go. sums it up.

can't be bothered mate.

[CodeRed]

Good points =

The ONLY time we've had any real success in the last 50 years is when we had a talented hard working group of youngsters (Gow, Ritchie,Merrick, Whitehead, Collier, Cheesley etc) who came through the youth set up together, did well in the F.A.Youth cup, and progressed together into the first team and took this club into the top division. Moreover the club did not attempt to sell any of them - AND - some of them, turned down moves to bigger clubs ie Merrick turned down the opportunity to join Arsenal.

Can anyone imagine that today?

[megansdad]

well have now read it in full and does not read that much better- yes 30 years ago we had a team that had been together and achieved and yes we should try and emulate that - but times have changed - and indeed they had shortly after our promotion all those year's ago when Gary Collier left. We could not stop him just as we could not stop DC yesterday. So how about answering the question what exactly would the antman have done yesterday?

[Barrs Court Red]

can't be bothered to read the whole lot but some of this is just nonsense:

"Not that BCFC wants you here, REALLY wants you here to fight for promotion, even to the point where they might turn away a deal in the short term."

Please tell me how we could have shown DC we wanted him more than by him being with us from the age of 10 and by recently extending his contract - should we have implanted a chip in his brain?

As I asked on another post what exactly would you have us have done? he had the opportunity to move on and wanted to take it. Sure we could have won promotion last season and that would have helped but we tried and didn't make it - short of that please tell me what you would have done yesterday to keep DC and what message that would have sent to younger players about the club.

well have now read it in full and does not read that much better- yes 30 years ago we had a team that had been together and achieved and yes we should try and emulate that - but times have changed - and indeed they had shortly after our promotion all those year's ago when Gary Collier left. We could not stop him just as we could not stop DC yesterday. So how about answering the question what exactly would the antman have done yesterday?

I think your missing the point. The post looks at a wider issue than just the Cotterill sale, but you seem to focus on this one point. Expand your mind sir, because all your ranting makes me think "i can't be botherd" when reading through threads.

[Antman]

well have now read it in full and does not read that much better- yes 30 years ago we had a team that had been together and achieved and yes we should try and emulate that - but times have changed - and indeed they had shortly after our promotion all those year's ago when Gary Collier left. We could not stop him just as we could not stop DC yesterday. So how about answering the question what exactly would the antman have done yesterday?

yesterday? I'd have taken the money.

You miss the point, we shouldn't be in this position.

as we are, what I'm suggesting is why don't we change our philosophy to try and avoid the need for it again IN THE FUTURE.

be pro active NOT reactive.

The fact was that when Collier left there were others who still carried the torch. we don't have anywhere near that sort of team ethos. who decides that? who dictates whether this club is a selling club?

[megansdad]

well at least we agree on that

but I would disagree that there is no team ethos I think you are seeing the negatives. The academy has been supported, despite much criticism, and is begining to deliver and just because we sell one player does not alter the fact that there are a number more coming through, while those in the team as demonstrated on Tuesday by Carey and Orr seem to have a passion for the shirt.

Further I don't think we are a selling club no more than Arsenal are a selling club because they sold Cole and Reyes yesteday, we have sold but in each case I don't see there is much we could have done but we have also bought - Brooker being a prime example and no doubt paid substantial wages to the likes of Noble, Jevons, Weale, McCombe and Johnson- not to mention Stewart and Bridges.

If we fail I don't believe its because of any attitude.

Sadly we can't change the economics of the game and the advent of the Premiership has more than ever concentrated money in the hands of the few.

[CiderHider]

2m is good business for an 18 yr old playing in league 1.

If i found out SL turned Wigan & their 2m down i would be very concern indeed.

We will not miss Cott's a great deal, even though he gave us another option.

The deal will give GJ the option to bring in qulaity players in Jan if need be.

I'm really impressed with how well our youth players have done, and with the academy in place the furture is bright.

Once we are in the Championship this club will come into its own and we'll be able to attract better youth players still, even though BCFC's football acadamy is reknowned nationally, we will really see the full benifit once we have progressed from League 1......eventually

I can't stress how badly we need to get out of this divsion.

Anyways, if i was a youth player i would want to come to City BECUASE youth players have progressed to a higher level, i would certainly not be thinking "oh my god they are going to sell me to a Prem club"

and see that as a bad thing.

[Long Ashton Red]

Put aside the rights and wrongs of this transfer, lets have a think about the academy and what signal is sent out to players and potential players.

Firstl, Great - lets applaud how many youngsters are moving on to greater things, higher division clubs and some for good money (sign on clauses for the player/agent/parent/hangeron)

what does this say - we don't really intend to keep you. Really the academy is about making future transfer deals. so if you come here you will have one eye on where you can spring off to at the first instance?

Maybe that means the player will play to the extent of their ability because they need to get seen. One thing it will mean is that potential recruits won't give much of a thought to what BCFC means to them, and therein lies a problem - we are losing the heart, the soul of this club. look at our first team, we have a collection of jobbing footballers familier with the lower leagues, driven on by a lower league manager. Players with little more love for the club than for the nearest nightclub (where they can get into a scrap in) They'll be holding up the next shirt just as soon as their contract runs out, and it makes not a blind bit of difference to them - why should it if they get paid well.

Good summary to start with - our academy has proven in recent years that we can turn out some quality youngsters who make an excellent contribution to our team and can move on to better things. Exactly what I would have thought an Academy is there for. After all, premiership academy's work in a similar way (albeit in reverse - they get rid of the ones that aren't good enough and keep the best).

However, I can't quite follow the logic of the last para above - the academy is about developing good young players and that is what we are doing. Unfortunately, being a third division team means we lose the really good ones to a higher division - mostly after they have made a pretty good contribution to our team.

I don't necessarily agree that academy players will purely see this as a stepping stone and will not have pasison for our club - many are from Bristol and have watched city as fans, I don't think that passion leaves you just because you want to play at the top level.

As for youngsters, The good ones move on, thats the signal. Not that BCFC wants you here, REALLY wants you here to fight for promotion, even to the point where they might turn away a deal in the short term.

Sorry can't agree with that, yes some of the good ones will move on and I wish them all the luck in the world in progressing their chosen career in a higher division. But I don't think that means we don't want to hold onto them or that we don't try. In the past we have turned away deals for the likes of Fortune and Coles (only to lose out later when they move for less). It is a balance of how much the offer is, how important they are to the team, how much they want to go etc. Every one will be different.

Of course 'heart and soul' are perhaps, old fashioned principles that have long since evapourated from football. Hell it's a business after all! but the academy should be more than that - to properly nurture the talent we can clearly access, we should be imbuing a sense of pride and belief in this club, OUR club.

That fire and enthusiasm translates to the terrace and to the stand, it translates into an appreciable effort that is applauded by paying fans resulting (allied to decent management) in success on the field.

and that success is the key to financial stability and success.

I think our current squad have shown that passion and desire - it comes from wanting to win irrespective of whether you are from Bristol or not.

Selling players should be to acheive key strategic success through realising them as assets at a time that works for the team and the club, not on a reactive, almost panic led basis.

I agree and as far as I can see that is pretty much what we are doing (although I would add to your list the desire of the player to leave as a crucial element in the decision).

We need to be nurturing the up coming youngsters much more effectively, we should have maybe two or three playing regularly before we sell one of them on.

Again agree, and the last few seasons we have been - we have Skuse and Williams making their way in the side at this season as well as Cotterill, potentially with one or two others ready for their debut.

So what do the coaches tell the kids? heads up think of the money, 'cos this club doesn't really want you.

or heads up play with pride, because you can help BCFC get somewhere

You only have to look at the number of players who have made it through the ranks from the academy to first team over the last few years to see the answer - if you play well enough you will get into the first team and cement a place there, you have a future here if you want it.

[tompo]

Good points =

The ONLY time we've had any real success in the last 50 years is when we had a talented hard working group of youngsters (Gow, Ritchie,Merrick, Whitehead, Collier, Cheesley etc) who came through the youth set up together, did well in the F.A.Youth cup, and progressed together into the first team and took this club into the top division. Moreover the club did not attempt to sell any of them - AND - some of them, turned down moves to bigger clubs ie Merrick turned down the opportunity to join Arsenal.

Can anyone imagine that today?

No but then I can't imagine players being given 10 year contracts like some of the players you mention. Garry Collier was the first player to leave a club under freedom of contract and the club sought to tie their "star" players in to long term contracts. Seemed a good idea at the time but not quite so good in 1982.

Ironically Cheesley slipped through our net as a youngster and was signed from Norwich.

I presume that Cotterill did have the option to say no to the move yesterday but decided his future lay elsewhere.

[BB in Backwell]

can't be bothered to read the whole lot but some of this is just nonsense:

"Not that BCFC wants you here, REALLY wants you here to fight for promotion, even to the point where they might turn away a deal in the short term."

Please tell me how we could have shown DC we wanted him more than by him being with us from the age of 10 and by recently extending his contract - should we have implanted a chip in his brain?

As I asked on another post what exactly would you have us have done? he had the opportunity to move on and wanted to take it. Sure we could have won promotion last season and that would have helped but we tried and didn't make it - short of that please tell me what you would have done yesterday to keep DC and what message that would have sent to younger players about the club.

Utter rubbish. If City wanted to keep him, they would have - look at the Bayern / Hargreaves affair.

It certainly puts out the signal that City have no ambition.

[megansdad]

mmm Bayern Munich/Bristol City clearly comparable- What about Ashley Cole and Arsenal - think they wanted to keep him didn't they- and obvioulsy allowing a player the opportunity to play in the Premiership and taking £2m in so doing signals a complete and utter lack of ambition you are totally right how could I have missed it?

[Tinmansleftboot]

Surely the point of the acadamy is to provide players for the club without having to splash out huge sums of cash. It also should provide City with a tidy profit if and when the players are sold.

Isn't that what it's done regarding DC. So hasn't it worked.

[SE23Red]

Put aside the rights and wrongs of this transfer, lets have a think about the academy and what signal is sent out to players and potential players.

what does this say - we don't really intend to keep you. Really the academy is about making future transfer deals. so if you come here you will have one eye on where you can spring off to at the first instance?

Maybe that means the player will play to the extent of their ability because they need to get seen. One thing it will mean is that potential recruits won't give much of a thought to what BCFC means to them, and therein lies a problem - we are losing the heart, the soul of this club. look at our first team, we have a collection of jobbing footballers familier with the lower leagues, driven on by a lower league manager. Players with little more love for the club than for the nearest nightclub (where they can get into a scrap in) They'll be holding up the next shirt just as soon as their contract runs out, and it makes not a blind bit of difference to them - why should it if they get paid well.

As for youngsters, The good ones move on, thats the signal. Not that BCFC wants you here, REALLY wants you here to fight for promotion, even to the point where they might turn away a deal in the short term.

So what do the coaches tell the kids? heads up think of the money, 'cos this club doesn't really want you.

or heads up play with pride, because you can help BCFC get somewhere.

But the flip side of that coin comes when you talk about recruitment and retention of younger players in the Academy. The recent reserve game against Rovers showed how we have stitched up the recruitment of the best players in Bristol by having an Academy.

But the very best of the young players, even before they reach their teens, are weighing up the Bristol City Academy against those of Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal etc. At first glance a League One club is not an attractive option, but to be able to demonstrate in Lita and now Cotterill that joining and then staying with the City Academy can be just as good a route to the Premiership will give us more chance of keeping the best of the next generation.

I don't think motivation dips because of the sale. In fact I can only see the opposite as being true. If the players believe that playing for the first team in League One is their ambition they will end up only being good enough for League One.

[Chappers]

I can't see the problem with Cotts, although it suggests that we got too little for Golbourne. What should be happening is that the Academy provides about 5 or 6 of the team (As happened under Wilson), so we have to bring in less players, so in theory we can get quality rather than quantity.