Steve L's Low Profile

[cider head]

Personally I'm one of those who isn't remotely interested in going into the East End. I'm quite happy with my seat in the Dolman.

But I do recognise that this is an issue that means a lot to a very great number of fans. I do accept a lot of the club's arguments against re-opening it, but neither do I think they can completely ignore a large portion of their fanbase who clearly feel very strongly about this. Surely there ought to be an acceptable compromise? It seems to me that the main problem is the closeness of the way supporters, and the insistence of a bunch of immature morons on both sides who think it's clever to goad each other and provoke trouble rather than watch the football.

If I was Chairman of BCFC I would re-open the East End to home fans and remove a couple of blocks of seats on the Dolman side to provide a terrace for those who want to stand. The terrace would be split into pens, to limit numbers who could go into one area and employ the sort of safety precautions that work very well at other grounds with much bigger terracing areas. I would then make the rest of the EE seated, as it is now, for home fans only, and put the away fans into the end block of the Williams. I would leave the EE block next to the away fans empty but use it for overflow when there was a large away attendance. I would make sure that the EE block next to that was for identified season ticket holders only, and make sure that any home fans who tried to goad or cause trouble with away fans were cautioned in the first instance and banned in the event of repeat transgressions.

And if I was Chairman of the Suporter's Club I would certainly want to ask my membership their views on this very important issue rather than wait for them to come to me. And what better way would there be than to make a freely circulated petition available for those who might want to sign it? And if having canvassed my membership I was convinced that there was no support for re-opening the EE, I would speak out and say so. But if it was clear that the majority of my members did support the aims of the petition, then I would feel obliged to communicate that to the Board. Surely the Supporter's Club has to have a view on this, and needs to be pro-active in canvassing opinion?

some good valid poins there fella'..

we got around 1,300 at the moment and we are sure to clear the 1600+ mark by the gillingham home game,

now to prove another point that was said in the past by the club, ''it's only a few on the internet asking to the EE to be opend''

well that is not true as the online petition only shows 75 names and forum polls are the 300 mark

http://thiscause.org/p/menu.php?p=25758DB

The way i see this EE thing on forums is a bunch of people digging each other out in posts due to

they way they don't like each others posting style or opinion in the past, so when one goes for something

that matters the other jumps in to block it because they were aggrieved in another post, then all each

others mates jump in and the topic goes tits up, it's happended for years on here and i can't see it

getting any better, it does not matter if people want to sit in the EE or not, we are all Bristol city fans

who should be supporting each other because belive me when this chairman is long gone we'll all still

be here here and the petiton does not reflect this internet play ground....FACT!

On that note i will pledge to join the supporters trust by the gillingham home game

not always belived in some things they have done but the fans should be backing each other,

i suggest others do the same....

[The Fat Controller]

The way i see this EE thing on forums is a bunch of people digging each other out in posts due to

they way they don't like each others posting style or opinion in the past, so when one goes for something

that matters the other jumps in to block it because they were aggrieved in another post, then all each

others mates jump in and the topic goes tits up, it's happended for years on here and i can't see it

getting any better, it does not matter if people want to sit in the EE or not, we are all Bristol city fans

who should be supporting each other because belive me when this chairman is long gone we'll all still

be here here and the petiton does not reflect this internet play ground....FACT!

On that note i will pledge to join the supporters trust by the gillingham home game

not always belived in some things they have done but the fans should be backing each other,

i suggest others do the same....

Why should you support something you disagree with? Or have little or no interest in?

We all want the best for the club, but i have yet to be proved that opening the EE would be financially viable. If it was, maybe id support the venture, however, as i can see it at the minute, it may or may not be financially viable and there is no guarantee that opening the EE would improve the side on the pitch.

That said, i have tremendous respect for the effort you guys have put into this, and equally hope the outcome serves the club for the best.

[cider head]

Why should you support something you disagree with? Or have little or no interest in?

We all want the best for the club, but i have yet to be proved that opening the EE would be financially viable. If it was, maybe id support the venture, however, as i can see it at the minute, it may or may not be financially viable and there is no guarantee that opening the EE would improve the side on the pitch.

That said, i have tremendous respect for the effort you guys have put into this, and equally hope the outcome serves the club for the best.

The eastend thing is just the tip of the ice berg, the dam stand will get knocked down anyway,

the stubborness and they way fans are treated over it is the main issue, it's a long line of

things going back to the so called badge change etc.

as for the supporters trust there are issues that you can't change or debate for if your not a member,

by joining you can have at least some say, ie: the members survey and

they are more likely to listen if your a member than people moaning on here,

we have moaned for 3 and a half years about the eastend untill this petition, so it was about

time someone put up or shut up we'll just have to wait and see.

you can't change things unless you role your sleves up and get your hands dirty.

[The Fat Controller]

The eastend thing is just the tip of the ice berg, the dam stand will get knocked down anyway,

the stubborness and they way fans are treated over it is the main issue, it's a long line of

things going back to the so called badge change etc.

as for the supporters trust there are issues that you can't change or debate for if your not a member,

by joining you can have at least some say, ie: the members survey and

they are more likely to listen if your a member than people moaning on here,

we have moaned for 3 and a half years about the eastend untill this petition, so it was about

time someone put up or shut up we'll just have to wait and see.

you can't change things unless you role your sleves up and get your hands dirty.

I agree for the main part, people are entitled to their opinion.

As for the supporters trust, i have also decided to join.

[cider head]

I agree for the main part, people are entitled to their opinion.

As for the supporters trust, i have also decided to join.

of course they are fella'

and good for you, you can't win it if your not in it.

i guess by being a member you got a voice weather

you agree with the opinion or not.

[The Fat Controller]

of course they are fella'

and good for you, you can't win it if your not in it.

i guess by being a member you got a voice weather

you agree with the opinion or not.

And for the record, i do not oppose the opening of the East End.

[Guest North Street]

Why should you support something you disagree with? Or have little or no interest in?

We all want the best for the club, but i have yet to be proved that opening the EE would be financially viable. If it was, maybe id support the venture, however, as i can see it at the minute, it may or may not be financially viable and there is no guarantee that opening the EE would improve the side on the pitch.

That said, i have tremendous respect for the effort you guys have put into this, and equally hope the outcome serves the club for the best.

A very famous player stated when signing the petition that "it made a difference" and Johnson talks about the twelth man away from home.

The petition shows support, the trusts survey will show support and then Mr lansdown might if he is feeling a little more open minded at least attempt something along the lines of an exit poll.

My expectation is that Lansdown and Sexy will fob the petition of as meaningless and want to use other evidence other than the trusts survey. Lansdown and Sexston have had the opportunity already to use the trust to conduct research into the viability of the East End financially but decided against it, now the cynic in me wonders why?

[RedTop]

Lansdown and Sexston have had the opportunity already to use the trust to conduct research into the viability of the East End financially but decided against it, now the cynic in me wonders why?

Presumably because, as they stated in the Q & A, cost is not the determining factor. There are worries that opening the East End will encourage unacceptable behaviour and might act as a magnet for the return of some elements that the club has worked hard to rid itself of.

Having said that, there's no evidence whatsoever that opening the East End would be anything other than a financial drain on the club.

But we're going round in circles here. People behind the opening of the East End accuse the club of not listening, but they are just as guilty of shutting their ears to what they do not want to hear.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind. People are too entrenched in their views for that. Like I said elsewhere, it's just a pity all this effort isn't being channelled into something more constructive.

[Guest North Street]

[RedTop]

1. North Street, I'm sorry if you think my posts are full of sneers. They are not intended to be. The fact of the matter is that the view from the East End is crapper than in any of the other stands and the seats are worse. Why anyone would rather watch a match from there is beyond me, though I accept some of you do. That is not sneering. It is professing myself as mystified why people think opening the EastEnd is worth bothering with. Why wouldn't you rather all sit somewhere with a better view to watch the match and sing? The only benefit that the EastEnd has is that it is closer to the away fans. Hence the worries about misbehaviour.

2. The entrenched position of some seems to be to ignore the reasons set out by the club for not wanting to reopen the East End. SteveL and ColinS went to some length at the Q&A to explain why they did not feel it was appropriate, and this footage is available for all to see. To me their case seemed pretty well reasoned, which is something that has been lacking from the pro-East End lobby. The thread keeps going over the same ground - that it would be costly and, more importantly, there was a fear that it would precipitate unacceptable behaviour and might act as a magnet for the return of some elements that the club has worked hard to rid itself of.

3. As you know, you can get some people to sign a petition for almost anything if the question is phrased right and if they have nothing to lose by signing it. Perhaps a fairer question might be "Would you rather the club spent its money opening up the East End for fans or on improving the team?" This at least acknowledges there is an opportunity cost involved in opening the East End. To answer your point specifically: there is plenty of evidence that opening the East End would be a drain on resources. Surely you are not disputing that it would cost the club money to reopen the East End?I am not disputing that there are plenty who back the East End being reopened. But as I have argued, there are only a certain number of alternatives financially:

( a ) Enough NEW or RETURNING fans are drawn back to Ashton Gate to fund the extra cost of stewarding, policing and turnstyle operators. Not people RELOCATING from other parts of the ground, which does not bring in extra revenue, but extra faces. I for one am not convinced more than a handful would return consistently game after game. And of course you also have to ask yourselves why those who are returning are doing so. I don't think it's unreasonable to worry that if (and it's a big if) enough people were attracted back purely by going in the East End, some would be attracted for the wrong reasons. Which is surely a worry.

( b ) Prices in the East End are increased in order to cover the additional cost of opening it up. Thus you have the absurd situation where fans would be charged more to sit in crapper seats with a crapper view. Which would obviously reduce the number willing to stump up the cash, increasing the cost per head further.

( c ) Prices for tickets in the East End are not increased to cover costs, and fans pay the same as elsewhere for crapper seats and a crapper view. In which case, either prices elsewhere in the ground would have to be raised in order to subsidise you all, or our cash-strapped club would have to spend money that could otherwise have been spent on improving facilities for all fans or - better still - improving the team. To expect the club to divert money for this reason, and to place it above the team's improvement and facilities for all fans, strikes me as pretty selfish really. Is this really the best use of the club's money?

It seems to me that my viewpoint seems pretty reasonable and logical, but I shall pause for breath and await a bucketful from the pro-EastEnders on here...

[cider head]

It is professing myself as mystified why people think opening the EastEnd is worth bothering with. Why wouldn't you rather all sit somewhere with a better view to watch the match and sing? The only benefit that the EastEnd has is that it is closer to the away fans. Hence the worries about misbehaviour.

Not about being closer to the away fans if that was the case they do that in the car park

and there is plenty of chance for that if that was the case.

fact is we got a reserved stadium, singers are scattered becuse seats are taken up mostly by season ticket holders and

people who would stare at you like your a alien if you sing, if we could ALL get behined the goal

in the atyeo we would have done it a long time ago, hense the fact people have gone in the williams E-block

then moved on to the dolman g-block, simple fact is they want unreserved seating together just like away games,

the best space for this is the eastend without upsetting your moaners which they are there in force,

the atyeo singers are pushed up in the corner, it's beyond a joke now, that stand is a pain in the arse

and a lot of fans just want to get a atmosphere going without being sat amoung those who bitch and complain all game about it,

a unreserved area is badly needed, thats the EE.

[SeaMillsRed]

Not about being closer to the away fans if that was the case they do that in the car park

and there is plenty of chance for that if that was the case.

fact is we got a reserved stadium, singers are scattered becuse seats are taken up mostly by season ticket holders and

people who would stare at you like your a alien if you sing, if we could ALL get behined the goal

in the atyeo we would have done it a long time ago, hense the fact people have gone in the williams E-block

then moved on to the dolman g-block, simple fact is they want unreserved seating together just like away games,

the best space for this is the eastend without upsetting your moaners which they are there in force,

the atyeo singers are pushed up in the corner, it's beyond a joke now, that stand is a pain in the arse

and a lot of fans just want to get a atmosphere going without being sat amoung those who bitch and complain all game about it,

a unreserved area is badly needed, thats the EE.

Hear, Hear!!

[Guest North Street]

1. North Street, I'm sorry if you think my posts are full of sneers. They are not intended to be. The fact of the matter is that the view from the East End is crapper than in any of the other stands and the seats are worse. Why anyone would rather watch a match from there is beyond me, though I accept some of you do. That is not sneering. It is professing myself as mystified why people think opening the EastEnd is worth bothering with. Why wouldn't you rather all sit somewhere with a better view to watch the match and sing? The only benefit that the EastEnd has is that it is closer to the away fans. Hence the worries about misbehaviour.

2. The entrenched position of some seems to be to ignore the reasons set out by the club for not wanting to reopen the East End. SteveL and ColinS went to some length at the Q&A to explain why they did not feel it was appropriate, and this footage is available for all to see. To me their case seemed pretty well reasoned, which is something that has been lacking from the pro-East End lobby. The thread keeps going over the same ground - that it would be costly and, more importantly, there was a fear that it would precipitate unacceptable behaviour and might act as a magnet for the return of some elements that the club has worked hard to rid itself of.

3. As you know, you can get some people to sign a petition for almost anything if the question is phrased right and if they have nothing to lose by signing it. Perhaps a fairer question might be "Would you rather the club spent its money opening up the East End for fans or on improving the team?" This at least acknowledges there is an opportunity cost involved in opening the East End. To answer your point specifically: there is plenty of evidence that opening the East End would be a drain on resources. Surely you are not disputing that it would cost the club money to reopen the East End?I am not disputing that there are plenty who back the East End being reopened. But as I have argued, there are only a certain number of alternatives financially:

( a ) Enough NEW or RETURNING fans are drawn back to Ashton Gate to fund the extra cost of stewarding, policing and turnstyle operators. Not people RELOCATING from other parts of the ground, which does not bring in extra revenue, but extra faces. I for one am not convinced more than a handful would return consistently game after game. And of course you also have to ask yourselves why those who are returning are doing so. I don't think it's unreasonable to worry that if (and it's a big if) enough people were attracted back purely by going in the East End, some would be attracted for the wrong reasons. Which is surely a worry.

( b ) Prices in the East End are increased in order to cover the additional cost of opening it up. Thus you have the absurd situation where fans would be charged more to sit in crapper seats with a crapper view. Which would obviously reduce the number willing to stump up the cash, increasing the cost per head further.

( c ) Prices for tickets in the East End are not increased to cover costs, and fans pay the same as elsewhere for crapper seats and a crapper view. In which case, either prices elsewhere in the ground would have to be raised in order to subsidise you all, or our cash-strapped club would have to spend money that could otherwise have been spent on improving facilities for all fans or - better still - improving the team. To expect the club to divert money for this reason, and to place it above the team's improvement and facilities for all fans, strikes me as pretty selfish really. Is this really the best use of the club's money?

It seems to me that my viewpoint seems pretty reasonable and logical, but I shall pause for breath and await a bucketful from the pro-EastEnders on here...

All pretty predictable.

Now how would you feel if one day you woke up and there was some pretty reliable evidence to show that very few fans feel the way you do? Mutter it 's just not modern thinking and swipe it away or try and really understand why hundreds maybe a lot more fans exist on a Parallel universe to yourself ?

Cost can be deal with.

Simple prejudice & a lack of empathy for fellow fans? Well i have not got a cure for that.

[ooRya]

Not about being closer to the away fans if that was the case they do that in the car park

and there is plenty of chance for that if that was the case.

fact is we got a reserved stadium, singers are scattered becuse seats are taken up mostly by season ticket holders and

people who would stare at you like your a alien if you sing, if we could ALL get behined the goal

in the atyeo we would have done it a long time ago, hense the fact people have gone in the williams E-block

then moved on to the dolman g-block, simple fact is they want unreserved seating together just like away games,

the best space for this is the eastend without upsetting your moaners which they are there in force,

the atyeo singers are pushed up in the corner, it's beyond a joke now, that stand is a pain in the arse

and a lot of fans just want to get a atmosphere going without being sat amoung those who bitch and complain all game about it,

a unreserved area is badly needed, thats the EE.

Says it all really!

Everyone knows that the East End has a crap view etc., it's just that if we are ever going to get an atmosphere back at the Gate, then we need an unreserved area......Preferably standing!! (Now that really would be silly wouldn't it?)

[cider head]

thing with cost just don't hold water.

not one game so far has warranted a police presence

the same stewards are still there that were in the EE and over stewarding

the dolman g-block to the extent they shut n-block down when the kids

of the future were in the middle of home and away fans???

there are not many away fans come to ashton gate apart from say

millwall, swansea and forest (mabe yeovil) there is no need on average to

have a heavy police presence at ashton gate, there shouldn't be a big extra cost.

[RedTop]

All pretty predictable.

Now how would you feel if one day you woke up and there was some pretty reliable evidence to show that very few fans feel the way you do? Mutter it 's just not modern thinking and swipe it away or try and really understand why hundreds maybe a lot more fans exist on a Parallel universe to yourself ?

Cost can be deal with.

Simple prejudice & a lack of empathy for fellow fans? Well i have not got a cure for that.

Cost can be dealt with? How?

And of course my posting is "predictable". It's about as predictable as all those tiresome posts from people who twist every bloody thread on this forum to "standing in the East End" and refuse to let us discuss anything else.

You will also find my post is predictable because it's the same arguments against reopening the East End that have been put forward time and again! You can't complain on the one hand that people haven't put forward a reasoned argument against reopening the East End, then when they spell it out again write it off as the same predictable argument! That just doesn't make sense.

It's not actually about how many people would like the East End open. As I say, getting people to sign a petition when there is nothing for them to lose is not the same as solving the problems thrown up or answering the concerns raised. Nor is it evidence that they would give up their seats and move to the East End. Or that they would come back week in, week out once the novelty had worn off.

In answer to one of your other criticisms, I suggest a lack of empathy for fellow fans is better demonstrated by expecting them to either fund your switch to the East End or to put up with you using up money that would be better spent on improving the quality of football for us all! Actually, I empathize with your concern for the lack of atmosphere, and I share it. I disagree with your method of trying to bring it back.

So please answer me the following:

1. You say the cost of reopening the East End can be dealt with. How? Which of the models I laid out above do you think is acceptable? If none, then please detail for me your workable alternative. I look forward to reading it.

2. I take the point about needing an unreserved area. But surely that is an argument for a "noisy" area the same as there is a "smoking" area? This could just as easily be in the Dolman without incurring the cost or risk of funny business. Is this not a workable compromise?

3. Surely you can see the club's fears that if moving to the East End did attract fans back who have vanished (and I have to say that if you compare our attendances now with the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s in the same division, there is no evidence at all of an overall dwindling of crowds, in fact the opposite has happened), that this element would, due to the nature of the East End, it's closeness to fans and its history, inevitably include some of those troublemakers the club has worked hard to get rid of.

[cider head]

It's not actually about how many people would like the East End open. As I say, getting people to sign a petition when there is nothing for them to lose is not the same as solving the problems thrown up or answering the concerns raised. Nor is it evidence that they would give up their seats and move to the East End. Or that they would come back week in, week out once the novelty had worn off.

the only way there will be evidence for EE fans or the club is to open the damm stand for a full season

and see what happens, the only cost is the police presence which for 90% of games at ashton gate is just

not needed, mabe for just 5 games i can think of but hardly justified full time, stewards are already there

in the ground following the subbers and giving them unnecessary shit and letters to justify their jobs.

and when i say open it for a season i don't mean a £1 kid nights and the club trying all it can to make it fail

just like they gave shit to williams e-block and dolman g-block

so no the cost is spin doctored

[Dave L]

At the risk of repeating myself, I think my previous suggestion deals with a lot of the concerns. I accept that the terracing option is unlikely, although I am increasingly of the view that safe standing areas are essential in all grounds if football isn't to lose its soul completely. But even if that were not possible, would it not be possible to put in an unreserved seating area instead, with similar provisos for seats that adjoined the away fans (season ticket holders only) in order to identify and deal with any potential troublemakers?

If I was Chairman of BCFC I would re-open the East End to home fans and remove a couple of blocks of seats on the Dolman side to provide a terrace for those who want to stand. The terrace would be split into pens, to limit numbers who could go into one area and employ the sort of safety precautions that work very well at other grounds with much bigger terracing areas. I would then make the rest of the EE seated, as it is now, for home fans only, and put the away fans into the end block of the Williams. I would leave the EE block next to the away fans empty but use it for overflow when there was a large away attendance. I would make sure that the EE block next to that was for identified season ticket holders only, and make sure that any home fans who tried to goad or cause trouble with away fans were cautioned in the first instance and banned in the event of repeat transgressions.

As far as I'm concerned this isn't about being pro or anti East End. Personally I wouldn't stand or sit there. As Red Top says, it's a crap view. Nor do I want to get drawn into any anti Steve L campaign as I believe that he is a man of integrity who truly has the best interests of the club at heart.

However, I do believe that in this particular instance he has got it wrong.

Something must be done to improve the match day experience at Ashton Gate, and for all the commercial importance they have, no amount of Premier Clubs or hospitality boxes or Is This the Way to Amarillos can replace the fervour and passion that genuine fans can bring. There is increasing evidence that a lot of genuine football fans are feeling increasingly marginalised and disenfranchised at clubs across the country, and City is no exception.

Of course it is beholden on those fans to behave and not abuse the freedoms that terracing or unreserved seating can bring, and I wouldn't hesitate to urge that transgressors should be banned. But there is a very important debate to be had here about the direction football is taking, and it concerns me that even with 1600 plus signatures the Club seem to be willing to ignore such a significant portion of their fan base.

[SE23Red]

the only cost is the police presence which for 90% of games at ashton gate is just

not needed, mabe for just 5 games i can think of but hardly justified full time, stewards are already there

in the ground following the subbers and giving them unnecessary shit and letters to justify their jobs.

If Avon and Somerset say it is needed it is needed as we cannot stage a match against their advice.

If home and away fans are housed in the same stand A&S will insist on charging for more policing than they do currently.

[cider head]

At the risk of repeating myself, I think my previous suggestion deals with a lot of the concerns. I accept that the terracing option is unlikely, although I am increasingly of the view that safe standing areas are essential in all grounds if football isn't to lose its soul completely. But even if that were not possible, would it not be possible to put in an unreserved seating area instead, with similar provisos for seats that adjoined the away fans (season ticket holders only) in order to identify and deal with any potential troublemakers?

As far as I'm concerned this isn't about being pro or anti East End. Personally I wouldn't stand or sit there. As Red Top says, it's a crap view. Nor do I want to get drawn into any anti Steve L campaign as I believe that he is a man of integrity who truly has the best interests of the club at heart.

However, I do believe that in this particular instance he has got it wrong.

Something must be done to improve the match day experience at Ashton Gate, and for all the commercial importance they have, no amount of Premier Clubs or hospitality boxes or Is This the Way to Amarillos can replace the fervour and passion that genuine fans can bring. There is increasing evidence that a lot of genuine football fans are feeling increasingly marginalised and disenfranchised at clubs across the country, and City is no exception.

Of course it is beholden on those fans to behave and not abuse the freedoms that terracing or unreserved seating can bring, and I wouldn't hesitate to urge that transgressors should be banned. But there is a very important debate to be had here about the direction football is taking, and it concerns me that even with 1600 plus signatures the Club seem to be willing to ignore such a significant portion of their fan base.

some good points, and yes this is not an anti steve lansdown campaign in my eyes,

as i've said he has done many a good thing for city but it's the little things that can get

peoples backs up and i to belive he has it wrong on this stance.

people are getting fed up with it and not just at ashton gate, i just watched some of the

championship highlights, lots of empty seats at some of the bigger clubs becuse

of little hitlars in fluorescent stopping fans trying to celebrate with their own players,

who incedently run to their own fans???? over priced tickets to watch football and treated like kids

the list goes on, i belive people should be given a choice to how they enjoy their match day,

yes mabe it's a crap view in the EE but to get unreserved seating, acoustics for singers

and they away ground feel it's the only stand it will work in with out pissing off current fans

who just don't get it, there is a choice for prem seating 'fine' there is a choice to sit in the dolman,

williams and atyeo, but what about those fans who will go in the EE where is their choice???

Arsenal v liverpool last night, a graeme souness quote on arsenals new ground was

'they have not quite hit it off here yet, there is no north bank feel, all the singers are scattered

around, not much atmosphere''

Ashton gate without the EE.....

If Avon and Somerset say it is needed it is needed as we cannot stage a match against their advice.

If home and away fans are housed in the same stand A&S will insist on charging for more policing than they do currently.

A&S want the money fella'

so when the game vs plymouth was going on instead of policing the game they

spent the whole match drinking tea in the old supporters club, yeah we really need it don't we.

[Guest]

Cost can be dealt with? How?

And of course my posting is "predictable". It's about as predictable as all those tiresome posts from people who twist every bloody thread on this forum to "standing in the East End" and refuse to let us discuss anything else.

You will also find my post is predictable because it's the same arguments against reopening the East End that have been put forward time and again! You can't complain on the one hand that people haven't put forward a reasoned argument against reopening the East End, then when they spell it out again write it off as the same predictable argument! That just doesn't make sense.

It's not actually about how many people would like the East End open. As I say, getting people to sign a petition when there is nothing for them to lose is not the same as solving the problems thrown up or answering the concerns raised. Nor is it evidence that they would give up their seats and move to the East End. Or that they would come back week in, week out once the novelty had worn off.

In answer to one of your other criticisms, I suggest a lack of empathy for fellow fans is better demonstrated by expecting them to either fund your switch to the East End or to put up with you using up money that would be better spent on improving the quality of football for us all! Actually, I empathize with your concern for the lack of atmosphere, and I share it. I disagree with your method of trying to bring it back.

So please answer me the following:

1. You say the cost of reopening the East End can be dealt with. How? Which of the models I laid out above do you think is acceptable? If none, then please detail for me your workable alternative. I look forward to reading it.What excactly are the costs and what excactly are they for ?Extra police will be brought in for teams like Forest,Yeovil,Millwall how do those costs relate to allowing City fans in at other times?

2. I take the point about needing an unreserved area. But surely that is an argument for a "noisy" area the same as there is a "smoking" area? This could just as easily be in the Dolman without incurring the cost or risk of funny business. Is this not a workable compromise?The Dolman is far steeper than the E.E and therefore more of a risk

3. Surely you can see the club's fears that if moving to the East End did attract fans back who have vanished (and I have to say that if you compare our attendances now with the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s in the same division, there is no evidence at all of an overall dwindling of crowds, in fact the opposite has happened), that this element would, due to the nature of the East End, it's closeness to fans and its history, inevitably include some of those troublemakers the club has worked hard to get rid of. (psst the trouble makers will always be around)The E.E has in recent years joined all like minded fans together and would bring more life back to the ground, see others posts on Boring sssssh Arsenals new ground; there are ways to cut down on any trouble anyway.

[cider head]

Cost can be dealt with? How?

with the same amount of stewards we have now...

This picture shows how the eastend should be.

the away fans can sit 1,000 in that corner easy, no need to

give the 12th man to the away team..

if unreserved the dolman gate by the EE should be open to allow

red and white bar sc members to come in and out of the EE for a

half time pint by showing their card (stewards always stood there EE open or not)

gates behined the EE closed for 20 mins at full time to let away fans filter off.

A few stewards around the away end fence and netted home area.

cctv on to watch for any one playing up and acted apon by the nearest steward

and given a 5 match ban or season ticket (if one) taken off them.

the EE / williams side the fence, tunnel should be up full time so that area is covered

Also net off the first row of the lower williams under e-block.

Now behind that goal should be us rocking the gate just like yeovil did

at their ground for them.

[Guest]

with the same amount of stewards we have now...

This picture shows how the eastend should be.

the away fans can sit 1,000 in that corner easy, no need to

give the 12th man to the away team..

if unreserved the dolman gate by the EE should be open to allow

red and white bar sc members to come in and out of the EE for a

half time pint by showing their card (stewards always stood there EE open or not)

gates behined the EE closed for 20 mins at full time to let away fans filter off.

A few stewards around the away end fence and netted home area.

cctv on to watch for any one playing up and acted apon by the nearest steward

and given a 5 match ban or season ticket (if one) taken off them.

the EE / williams side the fence, tunnel should be up full time so that area is covered

Also net off the first row of the lower williams under e-block.

Now behind that goal should be us rocking the gate just like yeovil did

at their ground for them.

Whatever the excuse/reason for not opening our end there is ALWAYS A WAY IF THERE IS A WILL.

1. North Street, I'm sorry if you think my posts are full of sneers. They are not intended to be. The fact of the matter is that the view from the East End is crapper than in any of the other stands and the seats are worse. Why anyone would rather watch a match from there is beyond me, though I accept some of you do. That is not sneering. It is professing myself as mystified why people think opening the EastEnd is worth bothering with. Why wouldn't you rather all sit somewhere with a better view to watch the match and sing? The only benefit that the EastEnd has is that it is closer to the away fans. Hence the worries about misbehaviour.

How would you feel if the away fans were put in your seat/stand and you had to move to another stand? while a new east end stand was built; but after that time you were then told to sit elsewhere as the away fans are now staying in your stand? happy?

Why is it worth bothering with,? because I have been in that end, our home end for nearly 40 years and it has life and energy and many memories; unfortunately now the power that be says a taxi load of away fans can have it.

2. The entrenched position of some seems to be to ignore the reasons set out by the club for not wanting to reopen the East End. SteveL and ColinS went to some length at the Q&A to explain why they did not feel it was appropriate, and this footage is available for all to see. To me their case seemed pretty well reasoned, which is something that has been lacking from the pro-East End lobby. The thread keeps going over the same ground - that it would be costly and, more importantly, there was a fear that it would precipitate unacceptable behaviour and might act as a magnet for the return of some elements that the club has worked hard to rid itself of.

3. As you know, you can get some people to sign a petition for almost anything if the question is phrased right and if they have nothing to lose by signing it. Perhaps a fairer question might be "Would you rather the club spent its money opening up the East End for fans or on improving the team?" This at least acknowledges there is an opportunity cost involved in opening the East End. To answer your point specifically: there is plenty of evidence that opening the East End would be a drain on resources. Surely you are not disputing that it would cost the club money to reopen the East End?I am not disputing that there are plenty who back the East End being reopened. But as I have argued, there are only a certain number of alternatives financially:

( a ) Enough NEW or RETURNING fans are drawn back to Ashton Gate to fund the extra cost of stewarding, policing and turnstyle operators. Not people RELOCATING from other parts of the ground, which does not bring in extra revenue, but extra faces. I for one am not convinced more than a handful would return consistently game after game. And of course you also have to ask yourselves why those who are returning are doing so. I don't think it's unreasonable to worry that if (and it's a big if) enough people were attracted back purely by going in the East End, some would be attracted for the wrong reasons. Which is surely a worry.

( b ) Prices in the East End are increased in order to cover the additional cost of opening it up. Thus you have the absurd situation where fans would be charged more to sit in crapper seats with a crapper view. Which would obviously reduce the number willing to stump up the cash, increasing the cost per head further.

( c ) Prices for tickets in the East End are not increased to cover costs, and fans pay the same as elsewhere for crapper seats and a crapper view. In which case, either prices elsewhere in the ground would have to be raised in order to subsidise you all, or our cash-strapped club would have to spend money that could otherwise have been spent on improving facilities for all fans or - better still - improving the team. To expect the club to divert money for this reason, and to place it above the team's improvement and facilities for all fans, strikes me as pretty selfish really. Is this really the best use of the club's money?

It seems to me that my viewpoint seems pretty reasonable and logical, but I shall pause for breath and await a bucketful from the pro-EastEnders on here...

Sad to say; all manner of incentives have been offered to intice more fans back apart from the only one that would and would join many together

[SE23Red]

A&S want the money fella'

so when the game vs plymouth was going on instead of policing the game they

spent the whole match drinking tea in the old supporters club, yeah we really need it don't we.

I'm sure they do want the money. But what do we do about it - refuse to pay and have the whole ground closed down? No thanks.

[Guest North Street]