Taxation

[Northern Cider-Dude]

Sorry for this rather mundane topic but i would like to know what your views on taxation are?

a necessity in todays society or plain and simple daylight robbery?

I only ask because i got a painful letter off the taxman this morning demanding cash , it made me wonder what other people's opinions were?

[Guest DanC]

The rich should be taxed more and the poor should be taxed less. Same should happen with council tax.

[KevinC]

The rich should be taxed more and the poor should be taxed less. Same should happen with council tax.

Yes, there must be a fairer way of soaking the rich

[lukejones2]

The rich should be taxed more and the poor should be taxed less. Same should happen with council tax.

Well thats a great idea... if only that already happened! Oh no wait... it does

[Guest DanC]

Well thats a great idea... if only that already happened! Oh no wait... it does

Last time I checked council tax is paid according to the value of your property, Not income.

And I am of the understanding that the percentage for tax is the same for everyone.

[reddoh]

I think that all the perks that politicians get should be removed and then the rate of tax we pay could be halved

[KevinC]

I think that all the perks that politicians get should be removed and then the rate of tax we pay could be halved

The grabbing ######## should do it on expenses only, or better still on the rate of Income Support. See how they manage on that.

[reddoh]

The grabbing ######## should do it on expenses only, or better still on the rate of Income Support. See how they manage on that.

i second that

[Dorset_Cider]

Sorry for this rather mundane topic but i would like to know what your views on taxation are?

a necessity in todays society or plain and simple daylight robbery?

I only ask because i got a painful letter off the taxman this morning demanding cash , it made me wonder what other people's opinions were?

I don't think the way we are taxed is right and just............. a person with millions may well pay less tax than you or I.

How can that be right?

Many of us it the middle get taxed as if we were making far more money than we are plus we then get to pay all the additional non-direct taxes too.

Tax is not fair in many cases........... and often people at the lower end do even worse than us buggers in the middle.

The rich don't want us to join them ........ we don't want to join the poor ....... the poor despise both the rich and the people in the middle(?) but we pay the most collectively whichever end of the middle spectrum you fit into???

[Nibor]

Last time I checked council tax is paid according to the value of your property, Not income.

Yes, which penalises the rich more does it not?

And I am of the understanding that the percentage for tax is the same for everyone.

First of all, do you understand how percentages work?

On my planet 22% of 500k is significantly more money than 22% of 5k.

Secondly there's a higher tax bracket of 40% to penalise anyone who's successful enough to earn over £31.5k.

If the balance was any more skewed towards making life easier for those with low incomes noone would bother doing high income jobs.

[Guest DanC]

Yes, which penalises the rich more does it not?

Not exactly. A council house could be worth 150k and the tenant could earn 10k per year. The house right next door could be worth the exact same amount with the owner earning 20 k per year. Both properties would fall into the same band as the values are the same so both households would have to pay the same amount.

So the Owner of the house would be able to comfortably pay council tax where as the tenant will struggle to pay the rent let alone the council tax.

To me that doesn't seem a fair way of doing things.

First of all, do you understand how percentages work?

On my planet 22% of 500k is significantly more money than 22% of 5k.

I do understand percentages thanks. But there is more people in this country earning 10-15k than there is people earning 400k+

Secondly there's a higher tax bracket of 40% to penalise anyone who's successful enough to earn over £31.5k.

If the balance was any more skewed towards making life easier for those with low incomes noone would bother doing high income jobs.

And as someone above stated someone with millions could well pay less tax than Ordinary Joe.

I admit not to know alot about taxes but what does take the biscuit is when you look at your wage slip and see that a weeks wages has been taking off of you when you could really need that money to pay house hold bills.

[Northern Cider-Dude]

Interesting to note that not all realise there are actually three rates of income tax,

Your first 2150 pound of taxable income is charged at only 10% then 22% and then the highest bracket is 40%.

[Nibor]

Not exactly. A council house could be worth 150k and the tenant could earn 10k per year. The house right next door could be worth the exact same amount with the owner earning 20 k per year. Both properties would fall into the same band as the values are the same so both households would have to pay the same amount.

So the Owner of the house would be able to comfortably pay council tax where as the tenant will struggle to pay the rent let alone the council tax.

To me that doesn't seem a fair way of doing things.

Why not?

Council tax is for local services, are you telling me that the person who earns 20k (and therefore pays more than double the amount of INCOME tax the other does) uses more local services?

Besides the guy who owns the 150k house is likely paying a mortgage on it costing double the council rent and they will end up paying 250k for the house over 25 years whereas the council tenant will get a right to buy it for 50p or so after 10 years.

I do understand percentages thanks. But there is more people in this country earning 10-15k than there is people earning 400k+

What does the number of people have to do with anything?

People who earn more already pay more, and they already pay more propotionally too.

If you understand percentages why are you arguing that high earners should pay even more when they already do?

And as someone above stated someone with millions could well pay less tax than Ordinary Joe.

Don't believe it at all. They might have to pay accountants to make sure that they don't get royally screwed over by the revenue but I guarantee you anyone with millions pays vastly more tax every year than the average joe.

I admit not to know alot about taxes but what does take the biscuit is when you look at your wage slip and see that a weeks wages has been taking off of you when you could really need that money to pay house hold bills.

Try looking at your wage slip at the end of a month and seeing 40% of it missing, and knowing that some of that money is going to pay off wasters who can't be bothered to work.

[lukejones2]

Exactly Bivor..... and DanC, on top of the 40% tax we have to pay national insurance too... as do our employers (more for every extra penny we earn) I completely agree that the richer people (and I hardly call earning 40kish rich but they would be paying 40% tax hence my use of the word richer) should pay more tax but the point is that they already do as Nibor has pointed out. A further 50% income tax band = possible. Though we must be careful that it doesn't force more top earners away.

You should also consider that if you never had to pay income tax all of a sudden, do you think your wages would rise by 30% No - they wouldn't. Over time, wages would all fall and the companies would take the benefits. Except that they wouldn't really as of course they would be taxed more to make up for the individuals not contributing...

It is a difficult balance to strike but I think you just have to consider your income on a net basis if paying tax makes you feel bitter. You are paid more than you would be if there was no tax so the tax probably makes no difference to your take home pay at all really...

[Northern Cider-Dude]

Exactly Bivor..... and DanC, on top of the 40% tax we have to pay national insurance too... as do our employers (more for every extra penny we earn) I completely agree that the richer people (and I hardly call earning 40kish rich but they would be paying 40% tax hence my use of the word richer) should pay more tax but the point is that they already do as Nibor has pointed out. A further 50% income tax band = possible. Though we must be careful that it doesn't force more top earners away.

You should also consider that if you never had to pay income tax all of a sudden, do you think your wages would rise by 30% No - they wouldn't. Over time, wages would all fall and the companies would take the benefits. Except that they wouldn't really as of course they would be taxed more to make up for the individuals not contributing...

It is a difficult balance to strike but I think you just have to consider your income on a net basis if paying tax makes you feel bitter. You are paid more than you would be if there was no tax so the tax probably makes no difference to your take home pay at all really...

That is a very good point and one which I myseld admit to not thinking of.

So what about Inheritance tax then? Surely thats a bit of an unfair one, or is it just in place to help keep the tax system 'fair' so to speak?

[Nibor]

That is a very good point and one which I myseld admit to not thinking of.

So what about Inheritance tax then? Surely thats a bit of an unfair one, or is it just in place to help keep the tax system 'fair' so to speak?

I think inheritance tax is both fair and unfair.

I don't have a problem with taxing people on inheritance because frankly they didn't earn the money but I think we do have the problem with inheritance tax that it favours the massively wealthy.

Everyday people end up copping it because house prices have gone up which puts inheritance over the threshhold. They're not so much over the threshold that they can afford complicated legal and accountancy tricks to avoid it, and they end up with a whacking great tax bill.

The Lords of the Manor who inherit in 7 figures are well prepared with trust funds and the like and avoid the bulk of it.

The "old money" stays rich but those who work hard during their career, save money sensibly or build up their own businesses have the deck stacked against them.

I believe the government increased the inheritance tax threshold last year but I am positive it was by nowhere near the same proportion as house prices have grown by.

Bottom line for me is that we should not be unfairly and disproportionately burdening people who become rich through their own hard work and effort - people who do that are good for the economy, they employ others and create wealth for the UK and we should be encouraging it not discouraging it.

[kit]

On top of the 40% income tax and the national insurance and council tax bills. The higher earners also pay VAT and Duties, considering the massive amounts of Duty on Fuel that there is, and that it counts as one of the largest expenditures for people. Then a vast amount of people are paying over 50% of their money over to the TAX man.

When you look at what they are getting for this, and where the money goes, I honestly can't see that they are getting value for money.

I would be an advocate of increasing VAT to something around double, slashing the rates of income tax. And making more basic items VAT free.

It disgusts me that people who already have a comfortable level of living want to permanantly sting the wealthier just because they have more money than them.

[lukejones2]

I think inheritance tax is both fair and unfair.

I don't have a problem with taxing people on inheritance because frankly they didn't earn the money but I think we do have the problem with inheritance tax that it favours the massively wealthy.

Everyday people end up copping it because house prices have gone up which puts inheritance over the threshhold. They're not so much over the threshold that they can afford complicated legal and accountancy tricks to avoid it, and they end up with a whacking great tax bill.

The Lords of the Manor who inherit in 7 figures are well prepared with trust funds and the like and avoid the bulk of it.

The "old money" stays rich but those who work hard during their career, save money sensibly or build up their own businesses have the deck stacked against them.

I believe the government increased the inheritance tax threshold last year but I am positive it was by nowhere near the same proportion as house prices have grown by.

Bottom line for me is that we should not be unfairly and disproportionately burdening people who become rich through their own hard work and effort - people who do that are good for the economy, they employ others and create wealth for the UK and we should be encouraging it not discouraging it.

Completely agree. IHT in itself is not unfair and there are a number of fair aspects to the tax (such as spouse to spouse transfer being free, annual tax free gifts being allowed, further gifts for marriage etc etc) but we have seen tthe threshold fall significantly in real terms over recent years by remaining the same whist house prices, wealth and salaries have increased at rates above inflation. If by increasing the threshold the labour givernement are indicating an ongoing commitment to keep the rates increasing in line with earnings then at least we know where we are with it albeit that the level is still a little too low.

Another aspect of taxation of course is Stamp Duty - you must remember that the minute someone buys a house for £250k (again, not indicating rich but perhaps comfortable) then they are coughing up an extra 5k to the tax man!

[zookeeper]

I think inheritance tax is both fair and unfair.

I don't have a problem with taxing people on inheritance because frankly they didn't earn the money but I think we do have the problem with inheritance tax that it favours the massively wealthy.

I'm not sure whether I totally agree with this. They may not have earned the right but those passing on the money have earned the right to decide how it is spent. I probably see it as a tax too far (from the dead persons perspective). They have worked hard during their life to provide for their dependants, their spouse or just anybody they choose and for the government to take a wedge out of this just seems a bit too much.

Overall I think that most taxes are fair and I am willing to pay my tax, however I'm not too sure whether it offers good value! Those that pay high taxes are also more likely to use less of these resources. Private healthcare and education seem to be a double tax because the service is not up to the standard that they are paying (or they percieve this to be the case).

[Nibor]

I'm not sure whether I totally agree with this. They may not have earned the right but those passing on the money have earned the right to decide how it is spent. I probably see it as a tax too far (from the dead persons perspective). They have worked hard during their life to provide for their dependants, their spouse or just anybody they choose and for the government to take a wedge out of this just seems a bit too much.

I'd make two points:

1) What do they care? They're dead...

2) If they know the government are going to take a big wedge of everything over the threshold they'll spend it before they go and that in itself will help the economy and be good for everyone.

There's no tax issue on spouses as far as I'm aware because they don't really inherit, they owned it all anyway.

I can see where you're coming from though.

[screech]

Absoloutely incredible taxing an inheritance, the parent or whoever wish to pass on property to their children and the government want more from you! The deceased have paid taxes and held a mortgage and paid their way for this throughout their lives and you cant get away from being taxed on your assets even when your dead. What a sick country we live in.

I firmly believe aswell that as soon as you hit 65 you should no longer be hit for any tax at all. Pensioners deserve to be free from paying tax on their piss poor pensions, the money in the government coffers is there to cover, they just choose to squander the vast majority on stupid things like wars, eu ministers, manager managing managers in the nhs, free legal aid to people who have got into the country illegally etc. etc.

[lukejones2]

I firmly believe aswell that as soon as you hit 65 you should no longer be hit for any tax at all. Pensioners deserve to be free from paying tax on their piss poor pensions, the money in the government coffers is there to cover, they just choose to squander the vast majority on stupid things like wars, eu ministers, manager managing managers in the nhs, free legal aid to people who have got into the country illegally etc. etc.

If you earn a piss poor pension, you will pay no tax on it.

[zookeeper]

I'd make two points:

1) What do they care? They're dead...

2) If they know the government are going to take a big wedge of everything over the threshold they'll spend it before they go and that in itself will help the economy and be good for everyone.

There's no tax issue on spouses as far as I'm aware because they don't really inherit, they owned it all anyway.

I can see where you're coming from though.

I've gained more beef about inheritance tax overnight. Its strange how conversations in work mirror this board??

My new beefs include the fact that you have to pay off the tax before you can claim any of your inheritance. This means that you need to get a breach loan to pay off the tax, which would be a short term loan at high interes, which puts you further out of pocket.

[Guest DrFaustus]

I'm not sure whether I totally agree with this. They may not have earned the right but those passing on the money have earned the right to decide how it is spent. I probably see it as a tax too far (from the dead persons perspective). They have worked hard during their life to provide for their dependants, their spouse or just anybody they choose and for the government to take a wedge out of this just seems a bit too much.

Well said that man.

Absoloutely incredible taxing an inheritance, the parent or whoever wish to pass on property to their children and the government want more from you! The deceased have paid taxes and held a mortgage and paid their way for this throughout their lives and you cant get away from being taxed on your assets even when your dead. What a sick country we live in.

Not only that Screech, but inheritance tax contradicts all the basic legal tenets regarding double taxation. In heritance tax is effectively tax on taxed income which is illegal.

[bucksred]

I don't think the way we are taxed is right and just............. a person with millions may well pay less tax than you or I.

How can that be right?

Many of us it the middle get taxed as if we were making far more money than we are plus we then get to pay all the additional non-direct taxes too.

Tax is not fair in many cases........... and often people at the lower end do even worse than us buggers in the middle.

The rich don't want us to join them ........ we don't want to join the poor ....... the poor despise both the rich and the people in the middle(?) but we pay the most collectively whichever end of the middle spectrum you fit into???

Its called good accountants, and guess what only the rich can afford good uns.

Allus been the same, allus will be.

Just the form changes... the Soviet top brass had the same as our capitalist ones, so did Fascists, Nazis, and Most Black African leaders too.

Todays revolutionary, tomorrows capitalist. Todays interpaneur, tomorrows rich man.

don't make it right.just reality. Bastards (Only cos I aint got the idea to get rich..YET! )

[Dorset_Cider]

Its called good accountants, and guess what only the rich can afford good uns.

Allus been the same, allus will be.

Just the form changes... the Soviet top brass had the same as our capitalist ones, so did Fascists, Nazis, and Most Black African leaders too.

Todays revolutionary, tomorrows capitalist. Todays interpaneur, tomorrows rich man.

don't make it right.just reality. Bastards (Only cos I aint got the idea to get rich..YET! )

You're not wrong............ And I understand the way it works....

I am also very realistic.......... Be rich but understand that you are privileged to be rich and you should put something back in?

There are people out there who look at the likes of me and say......Lucky Bastard...... and I know I am...... even though to many others I am not rich............. I do what I can for others less fortunate when I can

it's the way it should be........hey never forget we have a war to pay for though

[RED4LIFE]

What annoys me about the banding of tax rates is, if you earn just over 31.5k you have to pay 40% tax, and just under 22%. That makes someone who earns say 30k much better off, than someone who earns 32k.

I'm annoyed by this, as its going to happen to me this year. You think you will earn a decent amount, then the revenue take just under half of what you earn.

I think a jump of 18% is too much for such a small difference in earnings, especially when someone who earns much more (500k+) gets taxed the same amount. I think there should be a sliding scale, not just the 2 (main) rates.

The problem there though, is that would be common sense, and since when has a UK government had that?

[zookeeper]

What annoys me about the banding of tax rates is, if you earn just over 31.5k you have to pay 40% tax, and just under 22%. That makes someone who earns say 30k much better off, than someone who earns 32k.

I'm annoyed by this, as its going to happen to me this year. You think you will earn a decent amount, then the revenue take just under half of what you earn.

Umm, no it doesn't.

The person who earns 32k is still better off that the person who earns 30k. They only take 40% of the earnings above the rate so would only take 40% of the £500.

[bucksred]

.....hey never forget we have a war to pay for though

Too bloody right!!! my wages, and me comrades have to be paid somehow!!

[screech]

If you earn a piss poor pension, you will pay no tax on it.

You still pay vat, council tax, etc etc, its still tax, my point is pensioners should be paying no tax at all, they have paid their way and should be given a tax free living.

It could be done quite easily it would mean the government would have to stop squandering billions of pounds away on wars in countries 90% of people don't want and keeping people here who have no business to be here, and it only needs a few fresh faces who don't nail their allegiance to Tory, Labour, Libs or any current political party.

If they started thinking for what would be good for the citizens of this country then things could be so different. Until that time we will get the same old guff this country has been served up for hundreds of years.