Police Today

[Chivs]

That's rather a long winded way to say "If confronted by a group of drunken away fans in the home end verbally abusing you and giving you the old anchor sign; turn the other cheek, especially if they have paid £82 for the privilege". Perhaps we should laugh it off as high jinks and wish them well on their journey back up north.

I also imagine it's a little bit more than your respect for etiquette that prevented you from wildly celebrating city's goal at Swansea.

Redtop will probably be the first person to say I'm not exactly on his Xmas list but, in essence, I think you have captured his statement accurately.

So, what is your point?

Oh, hang on, you're one of the people very keen to get in the EE next to the away fans. I think I already know the answer....

[NickJ]

To spell out why I think it is relevant to the EE (and yes, I did spot the irony of someone who was in favour of opening the EE complaining that a thread had been twisted to talking about the EE after the way this forum was all-but hijacked when the campaign started), then it is this: To see brainless yobs trying to physically attack away fans (and on at least one occasion succeeding) who have been sectioned off from the area they are in, to see the fervour with which they acted, to see them uninhibited in doing so with CCTV and stewards around, and to read on here people supporting what they did and trying to justify it on the basis that fans of a rival team were 'asking for it' by vehemently celebrating their team's goals (shock, horror) surely has implications worth discussing. Yes, Coventry fans may have acted without due respect by going o.t.t. with their celebrations, maybe even goading home fans (again, shock horror. Whoever heard of that?). But that does NOT equate to 'nearly putting yourself in hospital', nor does it give anyone a free pass to try to attack them, though as I say, knuckledraggers reading this thread could be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

I fail to see how this paragraph, which sets out by purporting to explain the relevance of a skirmish in the PremSeating to the issue of opening the EE, achieves its stated aim.

One of many fundamental differences is that Saturday's incident would not have happened had the Coventry fans not been mingled in with City fans. So far as I know nobody has indicated that the EE should be open on a similar basis.

[bucksred]

I'm not going to get into an argument about my employers because this is a forum about BCFC, and I post on here as a lifelong City fan just like anyone else. If anyone wants to debate journalistic ethics there are plenty of places to do it, and if they PM me I'll direct them to websites where they can participate in an informed debate about it without filling up this one. Everyone entitled to their views about the paper I work for, and indeed about me from the posts I put on here. But no, I don't consider that who I work for precludes me in any way from stating my own views on here as a diehard City fan. If it colours how you read them, fine. That's an issue for you.

In among some of the diatribes on this thread, there have been some excellent posts and decent points made. Clearly I'm not in a minority of one in my views on this, and I thank all those who have spoken up and agreed with me, have defended the points I have made when my meaning has been misinterpreted or have stuck up for my right to post without being personally abused even if they disagree with it. As has rightly been pointed out, I am not suggesting all those who want to go into the East End are knuckledraggers. Nor am I suggesting that the behaviour of Coventry fans was beyond reproach, and some fair points have been made about that on here too.

What I AM suggesting is that nothing they did, no matter how much they wound up City fans, can in any way be seen as justifying physical violence or the behaviour of some of those in the Williams.

As stated elsewhere, away fans do sometimes sit in the Dolman and Williams, and the Coventry fans clearly did nothing wrong in going into the hospitality area, because they declared their allegiance when they booked and the club gave them permission to go in there. Those areas that are 'home fans only' are clearly marked, including those areas in the Williams Stand. The hospitality area is NOT marked as home only, neither is the directors' box. Therefore, as far as I can see away fans currently have every right to go in there and to expect to be able to support their team there without physical violence.

As far as I'm concerned, there was no reason from past games for them to think this would be a problem. When I booked, I was informed that there would be a lot of Coventry fans in there. As I've said before, everyone in the hospitality area mixed perfectly happily. Indeed, there were some Coventry fans on our table that I'd never met before and it added to the banter. At half time, there was a lot of upset from Coventry fans because of the actions of City fans and the man with the mike did say that any Coventry fans who wanted to transfer to the away end could do. The general attitude, though, was why the hell should they when they had shelled out £82.50 a head for the facilities offered in the hospitality area, and when the club had accepted their money? Perhaps the compere should have requested that Coventry fans tone down their celebrations a bit, but that's a matter for debate. If he did, I didn't hear it (and it's perfectly possible as I wasn't within earshot for the whole of half time)

Personally, I think that it is a great shame that the club has been put in this situation, by both the Coventry fans and, especially, their own fans. It is a shame that away fans can't book places in the sectioned off Premier Club without fear for their safety from yobs, or that the club may have to consider stopping selling hospitality to away fans as a result because:

1/ In a civilised society it hardly reflects well on any of us at BCFC that away fans celebrating their goals feel under physical threat in our ground (and the Coventry fan who was with me certainly felt that way, despite not having done more than jump up, cheer and clap when Coventry scored).

2/ It is a great shame if friends who differ in allegiance cannot go to a City game and sit together without fearing for their safety, as they could in the hospitality area.

3/ If just 40 Coventry fans bought hospitality, it covers that week's salary for at least one player. From what I could see, there were more than that. They probably paid the salary or two or three of the players in our team just by going into hospitality rather than the away end (and that's without the bar takings which, like some of you, I suspect were considerable). If the club can't maximise income from away fans at fixtures against clubs with big followings, we all lose - and if we get promotion next season, then that is one hell of a lot of money down the drain because you can bet that we would be missing out on a similar number of away fans in hospitality for probably half of the fixtures, which when you consider that may pay for the salaries of a quarter of our starting XI, is money we could do with. If we want to progress as a club and afford the best possibly players, that's food for thought. You can quibble with the approximations I've made, but you can't ignore the fact that it is serious money that we would lose out on week after week. Not Coventry, Us.

4/ If we don't let other teams book hospitality, that could end up being reciprocated, and it would be a shame if we were not even given the chance of splashing out occasionally as a treat. Imagine a group of you deciding to hire a box or hospitality as a big day out if we got a famous team in the cup, only to be told 'sorry, you can't, because you might have to mix with home fans. Okay, so not everyone would want to do this, but it's yet another thing that we would be deprived of. I'm hoping to go into the hospitality area at Coventry. It will be interesting to compare the experience.

However you look at it, the actions of our Neanderthal element are neither defensible nor in our interests. I do not see why people are focusing their anger on Coventry fans who did not try to physically assault people, instead of those of OUR fans who did and who drag OUR names through the mud and could deny OUR club money we badly need. We can't do anything about Coventry fans. We can try to put our own house in order or at the very least not try to excuse the actions of knuckledraggers just because they are 'our' knucledraggers. If those yobbos (assuming they can read) have come on this forum and read some of the comments on here, they've probably gone off feeling completely vindicated and like they've got enough support to justified their actions. Worse still, they probably feel there are people out there who would defend them if they did it again, which quite frankly is appalling.

To spell out why I think it is relevant to the EE (and yes, I did spot the irony of someone who was in favour of opening the EE complaining that a thread had been twisted to talking about the EE after the way this forum was all-but hijacked when the campaign started), then it is this: To see brainless yobs trying to physically attack away fans (and on at least one occasion succeeding) who have been sectioned off from the area they are in, to see the fervour with which they acted, to see them uninhibited in doing so with CCTV and stewards around, and to read on here people supporting what they did and trying to justify it on the basis that fans of a rival team were 'asking for it' by vehemently celebrating their team's goals (shock, horror) surely has implications worth discussing. Yes, Coventry fans may have acted without due respect by going o.t.t. with their celebrations, maybe even goading home fans (again, shock horror. Whoever heard of that?). But that does NOT equate to 'nearly putting yourself in hospital', nor does it give anyone a free pass to try to attack them, though as I say, knuckledraggers reading this thread could be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

We are all adults (well, most of us). How the hell can any adult - especially a so-called diehard who has presumably experienced enough games to be familiar with the odd bit of goading or '###### sign' from a rival fan - really be so incensed and shocked by a few gestures from an away fan sitting in another area which has been sectioned off from his own that he is either unwilling or physically unable to control his own body and feels compelled to rush out of his seat and launch a physical attack? No, some of the Coventry fans may not have been polite. They may have gone beyond the accepted 'etiquette' of toning down your celebrations if you are in the home end (as I did at both Swansea and Cheltenham). But can anyone honestly defend someone who says: "Well he was sat in the same stand and he was taunting us, so he deserved to be attacked"?

I hope not.

I would love it if the club or the police studied the CCTV footage from the Coventry game and picked out any of those fans who were involved and who turn up in the Williams Stand on Saturday. Will it happen? I doubt it. Given the response on here, the club would probably face a huge backlash if stewards or cops moved in and plucked them out of the crowd. Equally, of course, any away fans in the hospitality area whose bahaviour can be picked out on CCTV as unacceptable should also be dealt with.

Anyway, the bottom line is this: Can the actions of City fans on Saturday be justified? No. Who loses from their actions? We all do. Which is why it's such a shame to see some people apparently rushing to excuse them.

P.S. If those of you who have been abusing me fancy a laugh at my expense, feel free to imagine the look on my face at 6.55pm this evening when I arrived at the Winterstoke Road entrance after driving down to Ashton Gate straight from work in London ready for the Brighton game in the Paintpot Trophy. Or imagine what it would have looked like if there had been any lights on.

I disagree wi some of what you say, but at least can stand your ground, and justify what your saying..As you clearly are at ease with your employer fair enough

The only thing I did laugh at is someone who works for the press missing the announcement of the cancellation of the game. forgive me it tickles my sense of humour somewhat

[OC 1645]

I disagree wi some of what you say, but at least can stand your ground, and justify what your saying..As you clearly are at ease with your employer fair enough

The only thing I did laugh at is someone who works for the press missing the announcement of the cancellation of the game. forgive me it tickles my sense of humour somewhat

Fairplay to RedTop for defending an almost indefensible position with regard to this club allowing so many away supporters into the Williams' Stand - the German 6th Army's leader - Von Paulus - was in a similar hopeless position against The Red Army at Stalingrad. However, the possibly horrendous consequences for BCFC of allowing away fans en masse into the home end surely massively outweigh the relatively small financial benefits. That's my argument from a business perspective and from a legal perspective.

[NickJ]

P.S. If those of you who have been abusing me fancy a laugh at my expense, feel free to imagine the look on my face at 6.55pm this evening when I arrived at the Winterstoke Road entrance after driving down to Ashton Gate straight from work in London ready for the Brighton game in the Paintpot Trophy. Or imagine what it would have looked like if there had been any lights on.

Have to say I do admire your devotion, travelling as you do from so far week in week out.

Though I must say, for someone who, all in the space of a few weeks has attended one match on the wrong day and another publicized as postponed on this very site some 8 hours in advance.... to describe any of his fellow fans as Neanderthals is somewhat ironic.

[Redtilldead]

there is no point debating with him

next he will be accusing city fans (sorry knuckledraggers) of urinating on the dead or some other filthy Kelvin MacKenzie lies.

You have got that spot on Flax, every time he has made any comments about Saturdays game, and spoke about anyone involved he calls the Coventry fans, "Coventry fans" and yet when he mentions Bristol City fans, he calls them "knuckledraggers" !!!!!!!

You are really cheesing me off mate, I don't know these people, and neither do you, so please have a little more respect when speaking about serious matters like this.

Lastly, please tell me why you don't want the East End open?, there is absolutely no reason on this earth why it should not be opened on match day, I don't or wouldn't use it anymore, I sit in the Dolman now, but in my first 25 years of watching the City, I would never dream of going anywhere else in the ground, I think it would help the City big time if City fans were allowed in there, which is after all, part of Ashton Gate, the home of Bristol City football club.

[OC 1645]

You have got that spot on Flax, every time he has made any comments about Saturdays game, and spoke about anyone involved he calls the Coventry fans, "Coventry fans" and yet when he mentions Bristol City fans, he calls them "knuckledraggers" !!!!!!!

Redtilldead, that's an excellent shout.

I've just read through RedTop's posts again. RedTop is getting increasingly condescending toward his fellow posters on issues such as the re-opening of the East End. RedTop supporting the idea of increasing the numbers of away fans in the Williams' Stand is also alarming me.

Writing of "knuckledraggers", Prince Harry's "Nazi costume" scandal seems not so easy to cool down, as RedTop's Sun newspaper has released more photos showing "Nazi" Harry was kissing with a "Hitler" girl who was also wearing a Nazi costume. (Photo: sina.com/agencies).........would RedTop care to comment on the activities of this royalist knuckledragger? ..........