St Sales

[Bristol Boy]

9,200 was quoted on the official site two weeks back.

Lots of people have said that major signings would increase them.

9,200 quoted today but perhaps the Trundle factor hasn't taken effect yet?

21% up on last season, but we don't know the breakdown of which stand, how many concessions etc, etc

What say you as to the final number?

I don't think we'll hit 10,000 and that's a disappointment unless POD holds up at around 40% inc away fans.Away fans will obviously be a lot higher on average.I estimate that the 23 League Games will see an average of between 1,-1,500 when night games and clubs with less travelling support like Colchester & Barnsley are factored into the equation.

Over to you.

[Mad Cyril]

Any one considered our average might actually be down on last season?

So much depends on results.

Winning seasons pull in the floating fans more than losing ones.

[Nibor]

I wouldn't expect the signings to add more than a few hundred season tickets really. Everyone who wants one and can afford one probably already has one. We'll have a bumper crowd first home game and after that it will depend on performances as ever - just that with POTD prices performances will have to be that bit better to have the same affect.

[Matty H]

Any one considered our average might actually be down on last season?

So much depends on results.

Winning seasons pull in the floating fans more than losing ones.

That's a very good point. If we have a bad season and struggle with relegation all term then the fair weather fans will be long gone

[Robbored]

I wouldn't expect the signings to add more than a few hundred season tickets really. Everyone who wants one and can afford one probably already has one. We'll have a bumper crowd first home game and after that it will depend on performances as ever - just that with POTD prices performances will have to be that bit better to have the same affect.

Spot on.

Overall attendences won't worry that much to the club as they already have the revenue from the ST sales in the kitty. There will, as always be a big crowd at the first game but after that its over two weeks before City play at AG again - home to Scunny which is not the most attrcative of fixtures and they won't bring many fans with them.I would imagine that POD prices for that game will be reduced depending on how City are doing. After than its another two weeks before the Albion show up at AG.

[Port Said Red]

I don't want to go back to ranting at CS again, but those prices have made "popping down" for a game a thing of the past for a large group of potential fans.

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how it is economically better to have fewer people spending more money. I would have thought that a lower entry fee would attract more people in and increases your sales of peripheral items in the shop and in the ground. Add to that the benefit of creating a new generation of supporters by encouraging people to bring their kids, it seems an obvious tactic to me.

Maybe I am wrong, do people think we may have sold an extra 2500 ST's if the price rise had been say 50% of what it was? Or would we at least get 2500 extra POD's? If so how much more revenue would be generated by having those people in and around the ground on match day?

I could float a conspiracy theory along the lines of the club using the large price rise to manage the numbers coming on match day, because they know the infra-structure in and around the ground can't cope. The kiosks and shop came in for enough criticism in the last couple of seasons after all.....

[Barrs Court Red]

When the prices were announced, I thought and remember posting that we'd break 10,000 even though I think the pricing structure was poor.

I'm amazed that this figure hasn't been broken. I wonder what the take up for Premier Seating is so far too.

The club are in a win win really, existing fans pay a premium for season tickets (Forget this earlybird nonsense, there was nothing for loyalty, although different arguement different thread) and they can still look to take it in with inflated POTD prices.

It is good for the club, and that's what we all want right? It's just annoying it hits us so hard in the pocket.

[Bristol Boy]

Maybe I am wrong, do people think we may have sold an extra 2500 ST's if the price rise had been say 50% of what it was?

That's possible, but a difficult thing to estimate.

Or would we at least get 2500 extra POD's? If so how much more revenue would be generated by having those people in and around the ground on match day?

Simply put, yes and lots.Last season POD accounted for a subtanstial part of the crowd-have Att 12,800-ST 7,600 = 5,200-have Away Fans = 4,700 appx City POD.

4,700 + 9,200 + 3,000 QPR Fans Day One = 16,900 and we could well do that or better for game one.

Cold Tuesday Night against Colchester, it'll be more like 8,200 ST's + 200 away fans + 1,500 POD = 9,900.

For the purposes of this excercise, I'm including tickets bought in advance of the game as POD.

There are always about 700-1,000 no shows from ST Holders for each game

I could float a conspiracy theory along the lines of the club using the large price rise to manage the numbers coming on match day, because they know the infra-structure in and around the ground can't cope. The kiosks and shop came in for enough criticism in the last couple of seasons after all.....

I don't think that's the case but I do feel that POD isn't popular with CS & Co. in the sense that it isn't always predictable

When the prices were announced, I thought and remember posting that we'd break 10,000 even though I think the pricing structure was poor.

And so we should have.

I'm amazed that this figure hasn't been broken. I wonder what the take up for Premier Seating is so far too.

According to what CS said, that's included in the 9,200, but I don't know that it was in the 7,600 last season although it may have been.You can be sure that the minute we hit 10k or The Prem's sold out it'll be on the website in banner headlines

The club are in a win win really, existing fans pay a premium for season tickets (Forget this earlybird nonsense, there was nothing for loyalty, although different arguement different thread) and they can still look to take it in with inflated POTD prices.

Only if attendances hold up and, if we're doing poorly, they won't, particularly POD.My seat in The Dolman is £700 on a POD basis.

It is good for the club, and that's what we all want right? It's just annoying it hits us so hard in the pocket.

Whether it's good will be best judged at the end of the season.The signings have softened the blow for those of us that can afford it and if we bring in another quality striker before Aug 11th then that may even justify the increase in pure financial terms.The long term effect if we don't succeed could be catastrophic.

[Barrs Court Red]

The long term effect if we don't succeed could be catastrophic.

And that is an interesting thought.

I'd say in all fairness we have 7000 people who have bought season tickets for the last 3 years? And lets say out of those have bought one each year since we were relegated in 98.

If we were to go down how many would we retain, I think a fair proportion as the prices will inevitably go down, wish would of course have disastrous affects on out wage budget.

However, if we have a poor season this season and for arguments sake finish 18th, how many would we retain at current prices? I have a feeling it would possibly less than if we went down.

[Bristol Boy]

And that is an interesting thought.

I'd say in all fairness we have 7000 people who have bought season tickets for the last 3 years? And lets say out of those have bought one each year since we were relegated in 98.

If we were to go down how many would we retain, I think a fair proportion as the prices will inevitably go down, wish would of course have disastrous affects on out wage budget.

However, if we have a poor season this season and for arguments sake finish 18th, how many would we retain at current prices? I have a feeling it would possibly less than if we went down.

Then there are small issues like an inflated wage bill, players with itchy feet, EE & Williams redevelopment to contend with.Let's face it, now we've spent a few bob GJ's reputation won't be enhanced by an 18th place finish.

To say this season is pivotal to BCFC, The owners & manager is an obvious remark but that doesn't stop it being 100% correct.

[Barrs Court Red]

The question is, what is an agreeable finish.

I think a very positive spin could be placed on finishing 12th, and would be a platform to build on. However can we expect to see the investment to keep us going in future seasons? With a big outlay like the proposed new East End GJ might find his transfer budget squeezed unlike this season, where the club have clearly gone out to make a statement.

Now we're where we are, to we continue to expand year on year, or is the long term aim to survive as a midtable team.

[punnett]

Then there are small issues like an inflated wage bill, players with itchy feet, EE & Williams redevelopment to contend with.Let's face it, now we've spent a few bob GJ's reputation won't be enhanced by an 18th place finish.

To say this season is pivotal to BCFC, The owners & manager is an obvious remark but that doesn't stop it being 100% correct.

There is absolutely no doubt that we would of broke 10,000 with a more affordable price increase, me and many others i know have not renewed our STs and as for my eldest son, who is now 16, his ST would of risen from the £85 i paid last season to £240 this season an increase of 200% approx. i'm gutted but i just cannot afford it, so he, like me will be picking and choosing, the fact is that me and him will miss more home games this season than the last 10 seasons put together, still, our hearts will be at AG while we listen to 20pence

[Port Said Red]

The question is, what is an agreeable finish.

I think a very positive spin could be placed on finishing 12th, and would be a platform to build on. However can we expect to see the investment to keep us going in future seasons? With a big outlay like the proposed new East End GJ might find his transfer budget squeezed unlike this season, where the club have clearly gone out to make a statement.

Now we're where we are, to we continue to expand year on year, or is the long term aim to survive as a midtable team.

I don't know if you can put a position on the finish, it might be better to put a points total to it. Last season I remember looking at the Championship table at the end of April and seeing that evry team down to 16/17th had a chance of the play offs. It could be even closer this year.

[Dolman Block B]

I wouldn't expect the signings to add more than a few hundred season tickets really. Everyone who wants one and can afford one probably already has one. We'll have a bumper crowd first home game and after that it will depend on performances as ever - just that with POTD prices performances will have to be that bit better to have the same affect.

Agree, and if we win v QPR, then 3000 to Blackpool, tickets or not, and win that, put yer tickets on the black market v Scunny.....

[bernie from barrow gurney]

There is absolutely no doubt that we would of broke 10,000 with a more affordable price increase, me and many others i know have not renewed our STs and as for my eldest son, who is now 16, his ST would of risen from the £85 i paid last season to £240 this season an increase of 200% approx. i'm gutted but i just cannot afford it, so he, like me will be picking and choosing, the fact is that me and him will miss more home games this season than the last 10 seasons put together, still, our hearts will be at AG while we listen to 20pence

yes this is a shame - no its a tragedy, but I know at least 10 floaters from last season who have gone for £450 season tickets as well as someone who runs a company who has bought 8 premier club seats (£4000, plus £800 a month for four years!) In every single case these are people who fancy wolves, southampton and leicester more than doncaster rotherham and bradford, and for whom money isn't so much of an issue perhaps as others who have supported the club through thick and thin (mostly thin) for the past 30 years. So that's £15,000 from 18 people! Occupying the same physical space as people who last season would have generated a little over £5,000 (working on £300 per ST) - CS and SJ are money men and its where there allegiance will always go.

That isn't my point though; there is an old adage about "not p*ssing on people on the way up as you will need them again on the way down", if the worst happened, and City went down the club will need to return to the long sufferers. Lets face it, to make 18th place next season and survive, we will lose about 50-60% of games and let in around 20 goals more than we score. For £450. Great.

It's a big risk. If this was a cold business decision, I would say to you to wait, POD for this next season and see where things are in 2008/9. However being a football fan is 100% an emotional personal decision so there's no easy answer! Personally, I paid up but I don't take the rest of my family yet so it wasn't too much of a hit on our finances.

Will be very interesting where we are this time next year.

[Nibor]

In every single case these are people who fancy wolves, southampton and leicester more than doncaster rotherham and bradford

...

there is an old adage about "not p*ssing on people on the way up as you will need them again on the way down", if the worst happened, and City went down the club will need to return to the long sufferers.

Exactly the thing that worries me.

The floaters will bugger off if we go down, no question.

The price won't drop and the long sufferers won't be back because a) they can't afford it and b) they've been shat on.

That 9,200 could well turn into 5,000 if the worst happens - it's a monumental risk.

It bothers me because it's a risk there seems to me to be no benefit in taking - if the seats were all full I'd understand but they most certainly won't be.

[Port Said Red]

Exactly the thing that worries me.

The floaters will bugger off if we go down, no question.

The price won't drop and the long sufferers won't be back because a) they can't afford it and b) they've been shat on.

That 9,200 could well turn into 5,000 if the worst happens - it's a monumental risk.

It bothers me because it's a risk there seems to me to be no benefit in taking - if the seats were all full I'd understand but they most certainly won't be.

It's another point my economic argument, can an empty seat really be better than one filled at any price? There is another problem though which relates to the all seater stadiums these days. If I have a friend who wants to come down, is he going to come, paying around £25 and then find that he is sitting the other end of the Atyeo? Part of the enjoyment, is chatting to your mates, asking about the players etc. In the past that hasn't been too much of a problem because, we have always been able to find two seats together, it is getting harder all the time though.

[megansdad]

It's another point my economic argument, can an empty seat really be better than one filled at any price?

Without question it can if the cost of filling that seat is to reduce the price of all other tickets sold. If we can sell 10,000 ST's at 100 but can sell and extra 10 were the price reduced to 99 then the cost of those extra sales would be 901 pounds per ticket - so clearly better to have left them unsold.

But that's not all for some games which are sell out selling the extra STs would also mean they were unavailable for POTD.

and that's the point about ST pricing - the club has to balance the fact that many matches will be oversubscribed, while others will be less in demand. To do so they offer season tickets at a discount to POTD this gives the club an up front chunk of cash and locked in revenue - POTD will augment this and selling more tickets at POTD prices generates extra revenue, selling too few STs means those unattractive games will clearly generate less revenue.

As I've said before I think the club has balanced this right and given transfer activity and some good early season performances I think average attendances will be pretty healthy.

[megansdad]

if we are relegated then clearly ST prices will have to fall to retain the level of sales- but let's hope we don't have to cross that particular bridge

[Nibor]

megansdad - which matches do you think will sell out to home fans? I reckon Charlton might and possibly the opening day. Can't see any other matches doing that or our average being much more than around 13k home fans if we're floating around mid table or in a relegation fight.

"if we are relegated then clearly ST prices will have to fall to retain the level of sales"

They didn't last time and the flip side is that the club will be even more reluctant to reduce the price given the wage bill we now have and could well just stick with it and rely on renewals. Either way I'd bet the income will be nearly halved if this happens. Any relegation in the next couple of years will put this club in massive jeopardy.

[x3widRacin]

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how it is economically better to have fewer people spending more money. I would have thought that a lower entry fee would attract more people in and increases your sales of peripheral items in the shop and in the ground. Add to that the benefit of creating a new generation of supporters by encouraging people to bring their kids, it seems an obvious tactic to me.

I think the easy answer is that by having the prices a bit higher, you've already guaranteed yourself X-income for the entire season. If you lower the prices, you sell more tickets but still have the same guaranteed income, but then you have less remaining seats to sell on each matchday for net profit, especially at any potential big matches where all of the non season tickets will sell out.

[punnett]

Exactly the thing that worries me.

The floaters will bugger off if we go down, no question.

The price won't drop and the long sufferers won't be back because a) they can't afford it and b) they've been shat on.

That 9,200 could well turn into 5,000 if the worst happens - it's a monumental risk.

It bothers me because it's a risk there seems to me to be no benefit in taking - if the seats were all full I'd understand but they most certainly won't be.

Absolutely right, if the worse did happen and we do get relegated the STs would have to come down in price, the floaters will bugger off, and old muggins here will be able to buy his ST again and sit in his old seat he's sat in for the last 9 mediocre years.

[Tom Fleuriot]

I think the easy answer is that by having the prices a bit higher, you've already guaranteed yourself X-income for the entire season. If you lower the prices, you sell more tickets but still have the same guaranteed income, but then you have less remaining seats to sell on each matchday for net profit, especially at any potential big matches where all of the non season tickets will sell out.

Which is exactly why, as BB has said, any judgement on whether it was the right thing will have to wait until the end of the season. But it still feels expensive to me.

[Bristol Boy]

I think the easy answer is that by having the prices a bit higher, you've already guaranteed yourself X-income for the entire season. If you lower the prices, you sell more tickets but still have the same guaranteed income, but then you have less remaining seats to sell on each matchday for net profit, especially at any potential big matches where all of the non season tickets will sell out.

Big matches like cup ties are not included in ST's anyway and prices can be adjusted accordingly.In terms of big league matches, that's partly about form and partly about the opposition and their form.

[Martyn Hocking]

megansdad - which matches do you think will sell out to home fans? I reckon Charlton might and possibly the opening day. Can't see any other matches doing that or our average being much more than around 13k home fans if we're floating around mid table or in a relegation fight.

Depends on our league position (and theirs to some extent) but I can see Wolves, Cardiff, WBA, Sheff Utd and Sheff Wed home games all being fairly close to sell-outs for home fans, with big POTD.

I'm sorry if people with kids are struggling to pay the extra but the reality is that the vast majority of people who watch City (and any other club) are adults who pay for their own ticket out of the wages. POTD for this type of supporter has gone up by £8 per game at most - £16 a month assuming two home games. That's what - a round of drinks once a month?

Let's look at what this supporter will get for his/her extra £8 a game compared with last term:

* we've got a classy striker in Lee 'magic daps' Trundle replacing the likes of Showunmi

* we've got a genuine left winger in McIndoe replacing er.. nobody because we didn't even have a left winger last term

* we've got the fastest player in the Scottish Prem in Ivan Sproule replacing the ageing Scotty Murray

Do you seriously think the average POTD man won't pay the extra £8 for that lot?

And that's before you look at the opposition. For the part-timer, the prospect of seeing us up against Charlton, Wolves, West Brom, Cardiff etc is vastly more tempting than anything on offer last term.

Well_red

[x3widRacin]

Maybe they can do decently by super-slashing prices for the lowly early rounds of the League Cup and getting everyone to show up who couldn't afford league tickets

[Bristol Boy]

Maybe they can do decently by super-slashing prices for the lowly early rounds of the League Cup and getting everyone to show up who couldn't afford league tickets

There will have to be iniatives of that kind + quid a kid etc moreover if we are struggling.

The single biggest factor will be what happens with City supporters & POD.

[x3widRacin]

Run a promotion through blackthorn or something where everyone can trade their ticket in for a free drink after the match. I bet that would sell a few extra seats

[Bristol Boy]

Depends on our league position (and theirs to some extent) but I can see Wolves, Cardiff, WBA, Sheff Utd and Sheff Wed home games all being fairly close to sell-outs for home fans, with big POTD.

Add Charlton, QPR, Leicester & Watford to that, but I reckon closer to 16/17,000 than sell outs

I'm sorry if people with kids are struggling to pay the extra but the reality is that the vast majority of people who watch City (and any other club) are adults who pay for their own ticket out of the wages. POTD for this type of supporter has gone up by £8 per game at most - £16 a month assuming two home games. That's what - a round of drinks once a month?

That's not the whole picture.If that fan travels away his costs have also increased from last season and it's whether he's prepared to pay £8 every other week plus all the incidentals like travel, food, drinks etc. For additional family members the multiplication factor becomes significant

Let's look at what this supporter will get for his/her extra £8 a game compared with last term:

* we've got a classy striker in Lee 'magic daps' Trundle replacing the likes of Showunmi

* we've got a genuine left winger in McIndoe replacing er.. nobody because we didn't even have a left winger last term

* we've got the fastest player in the Scottish Prem in Ivan Sproule replacing the ageing Scotty Murray

Do you seriously think the average POTD man won't pay the extra £8 for that lot?

They won't POD if they can't afford it and they won't POD on a cold Tuesday night against S****horpe.Look at the QPR gate and if we don't beat Brent & Blackpool, it'll be interesting to note how many turn up for the S****horpe game, excluding the obvious discrepancy in the away fans

And that's before you look at the opposition. For the part-timer, the prospect of seeing us up against Charlton, Wolves, West Brom, Cardiff etc is vastly more tempting than anything on offer last term.

Agree 100% on that