Woo! Tax

[OC 1645]

that'd be the same concorde built in direct conjunction with the french, right? with the french name?

Quite right, we can thank the French for the lovely name but little else. Those lovely Olympus engines were built at Rolls Royce Filton. Most of the technical difficulties involved in making a Supersonic passenger aircraft were also overcome in Britain.

[bucksred]

There's also the argument of lack of investment from 1945 onwards by our Government in British industry. The Germans and Japanese were heavily restricted on weapons spending so they invested in their bombed out industries instead. We, however, invested massively in our military during the Cold War with little Government money left over for industry. However, when our Government did invest in industry - e.g. - the Rolls Royce Concorde project our industry bosses, boffins, and unionized workforce produced a world beater that's the envy of the world to this day !!!!!!

Hows this for spec from what is, 1960's, Bristolian and British world beating technology.... ......

PROPULSION:

Powerplant four Rolls-Royce/SNECMA Olympus 593 Mk 602 turbojets

Thrust 152,200 lb (677.2 kN) with afterburner

PERFORMANCE:

Max Level Speed at altitude: Mach 2.23

max cruise speed: 1,355 mph (2,180 km/h) at 51,300 ft (15,635 m), Mach 2.04

typical cruise speed: Mach 2.0

Actually German arms sales in the Cold War werent far behind ours, and they spent about the same percentage of GDP as we did back then. Now however, they spend even less than we do, and our expenditure hasnt been this low since 1930.

concorde is a great example of Great Britain, & Europe at its best. Sadly all to fleetingly happens.

and you are right to an extent about investment in British industry. no tax breaks for cutting edge business, no tax breaks for ingenuity, or inventiveness, or for new technology. we put far too much effort into the Service Industries, and not nearly enough into the heavy industry in the 40's, 50's, 60's & 70's. Twas too late by the 80's. Successive governments too short sighted to see the dangers.

Sadly all too common in this country these days. Change of government, change of emphasis, no chance of a sensible strategy about any kin thing.

[bucksred]

Quite right, we can thank the French for the lovely name but little else. Those lovely Olympus engines were built at Rolls Royce Filton. Most of the technical difficulties involved in making a Supersonic passenger aircraft were also overcome in Britain.

Using technology liberated from Germany. they were the world leaders in delta wing technology in 1945. We got it before the Yanks, Russkis, and Frogs (Although they must have got some, the Mirage jet fighters and bombers have all been delta winged.)

[OC 1645]

Using technology liberated from Germany. they were the world leaders in delta wing technology in 1945. We got it before the Yanks, Russkis, and Frogs (Although they must have got some, the Mirage jet fighters and bombers have all been delta winged.)

The Delta wing design for Concorde was actually done on a fag packet in a pub - in true English fashion. The technology used at Rolls Royce Bristol was British with the help of some 'Pratt and Witney' lathes sold to us by Yanks on the lease lend scheme during WW 2 I do believe.

bucksred, the Rolls Royce Merlin engine helped shoot your beloved Krauts out of the sky over England by day and bomb German cities to oblivion by night.

[bucksred]

The Delta wing design for Concorde was actually done on a fag packet in a pub - in true English fashion. The technology used at Rolls Royce Bristol was British with the help of some 'Pratt and Witney' lathes sold to us by Yanks on the lease lend scheme during WW 2 I do believe.

bucksred, the Rolls Royce Merlin engine helped shoot your beloved Krauts out of the sky over England by day and bomb German cities to oblivion by night.

Mistake number one young Gobbers, I don't love Fritzes at all, me dad spent 6 years getting bombed, sunk, &torpedoed by the bastards (3 vessels sunk, and two others badly damaged). However I do know their sadly inept war effort benefitted all of the Allies significantly post war, and they couldn't fight their way out of a sodden paper bag in this day and age, in fact they aint good for a damn thing nowadays. Bloody Switzerland would be more of a opponent than the feeble Fritzes.(or Sweden, or Eire for that matter).

The Merlin did indeed shoot Fritzes down along with the Bristol Centaurus engines which powered the Bristol Beaufighter strike bomber, which also put paid to many U Boats, the Sunderlands which helped sweep the U Boats from Mid Atlantic, and the Halifaxes which help pound the Fritzes country into a pile of ruins.

However twas 60 years ago when the wasters stacked, and time has moved on somewhat. We hardly have an Air Force, Navy or Army these days, due to Socialist ineptitude....

[OC 1645]

Mistake number one young Gobbers, I don't love Fritzes at all, me dad spent 6 years getting bombed, sunk, &torpedoed by the bastards (3 vessels sunk, and two others badly damaged). However I do know their sadly inept war effort benefitted all of the Allies significantly post war, and they couldn't fight their way out of a sodden paper bag in this day and age, in fact they aint good for a damn thing nowadays. Bloody Switzerland would be more of a opponent than the feeble Fritzes.(or Sweden, or Eire for that matter).

The Merlin did indeed shoot Fritzes down along with the Bristol Centaurus engines which powered the Bristol Beaufighter strike bomber, which also put paid to many U Boats, the Sunderlands which helped sweep the U Boats from Mid Atlantic, and the Halifaxes which help pound the Fritzes country into a pile of ruins.

However twas 60 years ago when the wasters stacked, and time has moved on somewhat. We hardly have an Air Force, Navy or Army these days, due to Socialist ineptitude....

The Avro Lancaster bomber has 4 Rolls Royce Merlin engines. The Lancaster was the most effective British heavy bomber of World War II, being far superior to its main competitor, the Halifax, in tons of bombs dropped per man-hour expended in production and maintenance. In tons of bombs dropped per aircraft lost, its superior figures were particularly telling: 107 tons for the Lancaster as opposed to 48 for the Halifax for each aircraft lost on operations by the summer of 1943......

Source: http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/lanc.html

[bucksred]

The Avro Lancaster bomber has 4 Rolls Royce Merlin engines. The Lancaster was the most effective British heavy bomber of World War II, being far superior to its main competitor, the Halifax, in tons of bombs dropped per man-hour expended in production and maintenance. In tons of bombs dropped per aircraft lost, its superior figures were particularly telling: 107 tons for the Lancaster as opposed to 48 for the Halifax for each aircraft lost on operations by the summer of 1943......

Source: http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/lanc.html

don't disagree with that. some Halifaxes also had Merlin engines too. The only stronger bomber than the Lanc was the smaller Wellington due to its extremly strong air frame, although it had a tiny bomb load in comparison. Even the B29 couldnt carry the bomb load of a Lanc, despite being much bigger. Ironically the Washington (our name for the B29/B50) superceded the Lanc, due to its greater range, and better crew comfort. The last descendant of the Lanc was demobbed in 1989, clapped out after 40 years- the Avro/BAE Shackleton.

Which plane did your granddad fly, Lanc, at a guess?

[OC 1645]

don't disagree with that. some Halifaxes also had Merlin engines too. The only stronger bomber than the Lanc was the smaller Wellington due to its extremly strong air frame, although it had a tiny bomb load in comparison. Even the B29 couldnt carry the bomb load of a Lanc, despite being much bigger. Ironically the Washington (our name for the B29/B50) superceded the Lanc, due to its greater range, and better crew comfort. The last descendant of the Lanc was demobbed in 1989, clapped out after 40 years- the Avro/BAE Shackleton.

Which plane did your granddad fly, Lanc, at a guess?

My Grandfather on my Mother's side started his RAF career as a general labourer but somehow ended up flying on bombing missions over the Third Reich. The RAF were very short of aircrews during the latter part of the war due to the horrendous casualty rates. Having quite the same mentality as myself he used to take great delight in explaining how he used to enjoy emptying the shite/piss buckets out over German cities through the Lancaster's bomb doors.

A Great Uncle of mine on my Dad's side of the family was a fighter pilot but met his end after being shot down by Japs in the Far East during 1943. I also had an American relative that flew bombing missions over Germany by day with the USAF, he was awarded a bravery medal for helping bomb Germany's oil supplies in Romania.

[bucksred]

My Grandfather on my Mother's side started his RAF career as a general labourer but somehow ended up flying on bombing missions over the Third Reich. The RAF were very short of aircrews during the latter part of the war due to the horrendous casualty rates. Having quite the same mentality as myself he used to take great delight in explaining how he used to enjoy emptying the shite/piss buckets out over German cities through the Lancaster's bomb doors.

A Great Uncle of mine on my Dad's side of the family was a fighter pilot but met his end after being shot down by Japs in the Far East during 1943. I also had an American relative that flew bombing missions over Germany by day with the USAF, he was awarded a bravery medal for helping bomb Germany's oil supplies in Romania.

55,000 KIA and MIA, only surpassed by U Boat crews for casualties in WW2, Gobbers, your Grand dad was a very lucky man. If you havent already been go to the runnymede memorial to bomber aircrew. sobering it is.

[OC 1645]

55,000 KIA and MIA, only surpassed by U Boat crews for casualties in WW2, Gobbers, your Grand dad was a very lucky man. If you havent already been go to the runnymede memorial to bomber aircrew. sobering it is.

My Grandfather told me how harsh life was in 1930's England during the depression and that he knew a war was brewing. He thought that he would have had a better chance of surviving any conflict in the RAF rather than in the British Army that saw such horrendous casualty rates and fatalities in World War 1. So he joined the RAF in the mid 1930's. As it turned out the RAF lost almost as many men as the Army I do believe - a close run choice but he did survive if only just. That's the story of a staunch City supporter that survived the war to see the likes of John Atyeo play - many of our City supporting forefathers were not so lucky.

[bucksred]

My Grandfather told me how harsh life was in 1930's England during the depression and that he knew a war was brewing. He thought that he would have had a better chance of surviving any conflict in the RAF rather than in the British Army that saw such horrendous casualty rates and fatalities in World War 1. So he joined the RAF in the mid 1930's. As it turned out the RAF lost almost as many men as the Army I do believe - a close run choice but he did survive if only just. That's the story of a staunch City supporter that survived the war to see the likes of John Atyeo play - many of our City supporting forefathers were not so lucky.

Very true, Gobbers. Twas a choice like that for the likes of me in the 70's too. Service Life gave us all the chance to better ourselves. Luckily we didnt have any major wars back then, unlike now. Total British military dead in WW2 were 300,000 odd I beleive so your figures of as many RAF casualties as Army do sound pretty accurate. It was the only way we could directly get at Germany for almost four years, and their air power took a long time to break, resulting in very very heavy casualties. the average Bomber Crew didnt make it through a full tour of 30 missions, sadly, although many survived as POWs for the balance of the war. guess there were more RAF POWs than Army due o this. Your Granddad was a lucky, lucky, and brave man. My respects to him.And all other bomber aircrew, living and dead. Awesome courage to do what they did then.

[OC 1645]

Your Granddad was a lucky, lucky, and brave man. My respects to him.And all other bomber aircrew, living and dead. Awesome courage to do what they did then.

I remember him saying that Malta was a close run thing as to whether or not anyone would survive on his base. They were bombed by the German and the Italian airforces almost without let up. I think he was injured by shrapnel there but the few bombing missions that he did fly toward the end of the war over Germany were mainly without incident for him.

Back to topic: he was also one that would never moan about paying tax as he saw taxation as a way of contributing to the defence and the general wellbeing of our country and its people. My generation seem to have a far different attitude to taxation.

[bucksred]

I remember him saying that Malta was a close run thing as to whether or not anyone would survive on his base. They were bombed by the German and the Italian airforces almost without let up. I think he was injured by shrapnel there but the few bombing missions that he did fly toward the end of the war over Germany were mainly without incident for him.

Back to topic: he was also one that would never moan about paying tax as he saw taxation as a way of contributing to the defence and the general wellbeing of our country and its people. My generation seem to have a far different attitude to taxation.

My dad was sunk on the convoy which took the fuel to Malta on that tanker. I beleive you 100%

As to the modern generation and defending their country, and paying for that defence. Sadly not many are prepared to serve these days. As for paying for it, likewise. We have always had governments who spend peanuts on defence till almost too late. Rather spend it on scroungers and illegals these days. when you really need help, you aint going to get it.

[OC 1645]

Rather spend it on scroungers and illegals these days. when you really need help, you aint going to get it.

The biggest State scrounger - as per benefits claimed via the civil list - is probably the Queen closely followed by the rest of her family. The members of the unelected House of Lords are also high on the benefit scrounger list.

[zookeeper]

The biggest State scrounger - as per benefits claimed via the civil list - is probably the Queen closely followed by the rest of her family. The members of the unelected House of Lords are also high on the benefit scrounger list.

without the queen and them lot Tourism would be hit hard in England.

I'd imagine that economically it makes sense to fund them.

I'm surprised that you haven't been more vocal recently with the latest news

[Barrs Court Red]

without the queen and them lot Tourism would be hit hard in England.

I'd imagine that economically it makes sense to fund them.

I'm surprised that you haven't been more vocal recently with the latest news

He's only just getting over the civil war, never mind the latest news!

[zookeeper]

He's only just getting over the civil war, never mind the latest news!

Quality!!

[OC 1645]

I'm surprised that you haven't been more vocal recently with the latest news

Do you mean NAZI boy Prince Harry shooting and killing endangered species of birdlife on his Grandmother's - your German descended Queen's - estates? As a serving British Army officer, trained at taxpayers' expense - i.e. our expense, why isn't Prince Harry in Iraq fighting with his regiment?

Sieg Heil, to the future Kommandant of this country's hopelessly corrupt Royalist Gestapo Police together with its toff/snob scum Crown Prosecution Service lawyers......

OK, Prince Harry apologized for wearing a Nazi uniform to a costume party, attributing his lapse in judgment to a combination of booze, ecstasy and crack. :noexpression:

"I thought it would be a gas," said the 20-year-old prince, whose hobbies include partying and disgracing the English throne. "All the skinheads I know do bloody well with the birds. I thought the swastika was really shagadelic, but now I realize it might be offensive to anyone with half a brain."

A source close to the bloke who shovels the dung from under the prince's polo pony said the Hitler homage was not Harry's first choice of party attire.

"He tried on a few Osama bin Laden beards but couldn't find just the right one," said Nigel Tufnel. "And he was keen on going as a Ku Klux Klansman but couldn't find a bedsheet without bleeding 'Buckingham Palace' embroidered on it."

The prince also decided against going as the murderous Ugandan dictator Idi Amin because his black face paint kept smudging and the pillow under his 'Party Animal' T-shirt kept shifting.

Prince Charles, who is said to be outraged by the incident, reportedly grounded his youngest son and made him promise not to get drunk or stoned for two weeks.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Do you mean NAZI boy Prince Harry shooting and killing endangered species of birdlife on his Grandmother's - your German descended Queen's - estates? As a serving British Army officer, trained at taxpayers' expense - i.e. our expense, why isn't Prince Harry in Iraq fighting with his regiment?

Sieg Heil, to the future Kommandant of this country's hopelessly corrupt Royalist Gestapo Police together with its toff/snob scum Crown Prosecution Service lawyers......

OK, Prince Harry apologized for wearing a Nazi uniform to a costume party, attributing his lapse in judgment to a combination of booze, ecstasy and crack. :noexpression:

"I thought it would be a gas," said the 20-year-old prince, whose hobbies include partying and disgracing the English throne. "All the skinheads I know do bloody well with the birds. I thought the swastika was really shagadelic, but now I realize it might be offensive to anyone with half a brain."

A source close to the bloke who shovels the dung from under the prince's polo pony said the Hitler homage was not Harry's first choice of party attire.

"He tried on a few Osama bin Laden beards but couldn't find just the right one," said Nigel Tufnel. "And he was keen on going as a Ku Klux Klansman but couldn't find a bedsheet without bleeding 'Buckingham Palace' embroidered on it."

The prince also decided against going as the murderous Ugandan dictator Idi Amin because his black face paint kept smudging and the pillow under his 'Party Animal' T-shirt kept shifting.

Prince Charles, who is said to be outraged by the incident, reportedly grounded his youngest son and made him promise not to get drunk or stoned for two weeks.

Nah man, tbf what was the idiot thinking? I actually quite like the little scamp but ffs !!

Still reckon discussing politics is a waste of time and energy without any action.... do PM us with plans of the revolt when they're drawn up Gobby.....

[fka dagest]

without the queen and them lot Tourism would be hit hard in England.

I'd imagine that economically it makes sense to fund them.

I'm surprised that you haven't been more vocal recently with the latest news

People always seem to bring up the tourism argument, but it's really an unfounded opinion. People, still visit Versailles and there isn't a trace of royalty there anymore. Personally, I believe people visit countries to look at buildings etc. I mean hordes of people visit Stonehenge and there ain't any bonkers cavemen hanging about is there?

[zookeeper]

People always seem to bring up the tourism argument, but it's really an unfounded opinion. People, still visit Versailles and there isn't a trace of royalty there anymore. Personally, I believe people visit countries to look at buildings etc. I mean hordes of people visit Stonehenge and there ain't any bonkers cavemen hanging about is there?

It's not unfounded. It's actually quantified through a lot of studies. 39% of people from one study gave visiting places associated with the royal family as a top rating with the average rating being 5.6 out of 7 (the third highest rating for British activities). 58% of foreign visitors say that they will visit a place associated with the monarchy.

From Visit Britain.

Empty buildings are what people look at in, the reason behind them is why they are there. The monarchy does generate tourism and is a global recognisable symbol for England.

[fka dagest]

It's not unfounded. It's actually quantified through a lot of studies. 39% of people from one study gave visiting places associated with the royal family as a top rating with the average rating being 5.6 out of 7 (the third highest rating for British activities). 58% of foreign visitors say that they will visit a place associated with the monarchy.

From Visit Britain.

Empty buildings are what people look at in, the reason behind them is why they are there. The monarchy does generate tourism and is a global recognisable symbol for England.

I don't feel you really disprove my point. Yes, people visit buildings, monuments etc associated with particular things, but what I was trying to express is that they don't visit royalty themselves. People would still visit these places regardless if the Royal Family now existed or not. That's why people continue to visit sites associated with cavemen, Egpytians, Greeks, Romans etc.

[zookeeper]

I don't feel you really disprove my point. Yes, people visit buildings, monuments etc associated with particular things, but what I was trying to express is that they don't visit royalty themselves. People would still visit these places regardless if the Royal Family now existed or not. That's why people continue to visit sites associated with cavemen, Egpytians, Greeks, Romans etc.

Well the fact that the monarchy is one of the first things people think about england was one of my points and it's always hard to disprove peoples views based on their own thoughts rather than empirical evidence.

I agree people won't just stop coming becuase there is no monarchy as England has a lot of attractions but it does hold a huge sway. My experience has always been that foreign tourists really do place a huge emphasis on it.

The holiday attractions that I have been too may well not have a monarchy but do have other attractions, gastronomic or good weather, that maybe England lacks.

[OC 1645]

I don't feel you really disprove my point. Yes, people visit buildings, monuments etc associated with particular things, but what I was trying to express is that they don't visit royalty themselves. People would still visit these places regardless if the Royal Family now existed or not. That's why people continue to visit sites associated with cavemen, Egpytians, Greeks, Romans etc.

Good point, France has no Royal family and their national monuments and art galleries are amongst THE most visited on the planet. Personally I like the abience of the 'Place de la Concorde' in central Paris...it offers so much European cultural history.. .......

The Execution of Louis XVI January 1793: King Louis XVI is beheaded on the guillotine in the Place de la Concorde, Paris. More than 1,100 French toffs and snobs were executed here during the French Revolution, including King Louis XVI and his wife, Marie-Antoinette......