Is The Problem The Wings?

[Pete1975Legend]

Well, having watched a vast majority of games this season and this constant swiping at LJ in midfield, are we actually suffering because the people on the wings just are not delivering telling crosses. For someone reason they always come inside and the game against Burnley KM and GJ had to tell the wingers on countless occassions to stay wide.

Surely the problem lies in the delivery of good balls and the problem for LJ is that he can only pass the ball straight as the wingers are not making themselves available.

LT has from what a remember seeing one decent cross from the wings for him to latch onto as they are constantly coming direct to him from the back. We need to start with Sproule on the right and Mcindoe on the left but for christ sake stay out wide!!!!!!!!

[tunnerz]

I think thats quite a good point. We were all excited about the arrival of Sproule in the summer, and Mcindoe, as we thought with those 2 and Wilson, Murray & Betsy in the squad we should finally have the wingers in place to whip in some teasing, quality crosses.

Not saying we never cross the ball but we do come inside more often than not, and when Trundle is getting double marked it just results in giving away possession. It doesn't help that we still don't know yet who is best for us yet on the right side.

I have faith in GJ to see it right though.

[westonred]

I have just posted this under another topic but as its about wingers i put it here as well

I would along with Jevo also bring back Betsy into the first team squad.. Betsy is also scoring regularly for the ressies and can deliver a telling cross sadly this is something Sproule has not been doing at present at 1st team level.

[giles_23_bcfc]

Totally agree. Every game I am constantly saying that the wingers should be right on the touchline when we've got the ball in midfield. That way if the ball gets played in front of them they are already running towards goal as opposed to running away from goal, giving the defender a chance to get close, then have to try and beat him.

[Andy082005]

Betsy is also scoring regularly for the ressies and can deliver a telling cross sadly this is something Sproule has not been doing at present at 1st team level.

how about we give the bloke a chance out on the wing first! he's been up front all season!!

[stranter]

Umm, weren't the goals against Burnley a result of McIndoe crosses? McIndoe has been really good this season IMO and I'd love to see Wilson on the right with Byfield up front. Wilson has been as good as McIndoe this year IMO.

[Guest Eamer]

I said this after the WBA game but nobody took any notice. Glad to see somebody else has noticed it now.

[Geoff65]

I think we can all agree that all of the midfielders are capable of playing in the championship and most would agree that Trundle and Byfield can hack it at this level - others question the ability of Enoch Jevons JMW etc...

What I think we have done this year is added a mdfielder that plays differently to most midfielders - Elliott is a powerful midfielder who runs from box to box and has the ability to do this for 90 minutes - but when we add him to our midfield we lose our natural formation for a 4-4-2 he has either won the ball back or returning from being up front but rarely do you see him and Johnson form a natural midfield of one's a ball getter the other sprays the passes and if he is getting pressurised then the ball winner usually has the ability to spray the passes around too - but this is where it seems to me that we are falling down - Elliott can do the things he does really well and it might be necessary in this league that we do this but what we don't then have is a back up passer of the ball when we have the ball and Johnson is under pressure - the ball goes to McAllister or Orr and sometimes to Carey to make the passes that the 2nd midfielder needs to make due to our primary midfielder being pressurised out of the game.

I would like to think that Elliott is an option for midfield rather than first team certainty as I feel that the problems we have is not the attackers or teh defenders and nt the individual abilities of the midfielders but rather the ability of the midfielders to interact with each other to create the width and the clinical passes that our attackers can thrive on. Take a look at WBA midfield the wingers stay out wide but they have two midfielders who are able to make quick and accurate passed from one flank to the other which we don't have when we have Elliott in the team - Skuse can make those passes, Wilson could make those passes if playing in centre of midfield, Johnson can make those passes as can Noble but Elliott possesses different outstanding qualities but I don't think passing is top of his abilities.

Put Johnson and Skuse/Wilson in centre of midfield - leave Elliott on the bench - we might see more of a cohesive midfield with the ability to make incisive passes, that can transfer the ball quickly and efficiently from one wing to the other and subsequently make the chances that our strikers can feed off. Once ahead we replace Skuse or Johnson depending on how many we are infront by as his talents are far more suited to a defensive formation than a fluent attacking style that isnt needed when we got to play out the remainder of the game.

[pdgifford64]

I think we can all agree that all of the midfielders are capable of playing in the championship and most would agree that Trundle and Byfield can hack it at this level - others question the ability of Enoch Jevons JMW etc...

What I think we have done this year is added a mdfielder that plays differently to most midfielders - Elliott is a powerful midfielder who runs from box to box and has the ability to do this for 90 minutes - but when we add him to our midfield we lose our natural formation for a 4-4-2 he has either won the ball back or returning from being up front but rarely do you see him and Johnson form a natural midfield of one's a ball getter the other sprays the passes and if he is getting pressurised then the ball winner usually has the ability to spray the passes around too - but this is where it seems to me that we are falling down - Elliott can do the things he does really well and it might be necessary in this league that we do this but what we don't then have is a back up passer of the ball when we have the ball and Johnson is under pressure - the ball goes to McAllister or Orr and sometimes to Carey to make the passes that the 2nd midfielder needs to make due to our primary midfielder being pressurised out of the game.

I would like to think that Elliott is an option for midfield rather than first team certainty as I feel that the problems we have is not the attackers or teh defenders and nt the individual abilities of the midfielders but rather the ability of the midfielders to interact with each other to create the width and the clinical passes that our attackers can thrive on. Take a look at WBA midfield the wingers stay out wide but they have two midfielders who are able to make quick and accurate passed from one flank to the other which we don't have when we have Elliott in the team - Skuse can make those passes, Wilson could make those passes if playing in centre of midfield, Johnson can make those passes as can Noble but Elliott possesses different outstanding qualities but I don't think passing is top of his abilities.

Put Johnson and Skuse/Wilson in centre of midfield - leave Elliott on the bench - we might see more of a cohesive midfield with the ability to make incisive passes, that can transfer the ball quickly and efficiently from one wing to the other and subsequently make the chances that our strikers can feed off. Once ahead we replace Skuse or Johnson depending on how many we are infront by as his talents are far more suited to a defensive formation than a fluent attacking style that isnt needed when we got to play out the remainder of the game.

I`m sorry but i don`t see how replacing Elliot with Skuse is going to help our cause. Skuse will not do all the work defensively that Elliot does or half the ball winning in the middle of the park. So while we`re `banging` in the goals lets hope it`s enough to keep up with the one`s we`ve conceded.

PDG

[philgas1]

Try Red Bull.. :noexpression:

[Belfastcityfan]

Try Red Bull.. :noexpression:

True

[giles_23_bcfc]

Try Red Bull.. :noexpression:

Notice its RED bull?

[Nibor]

Elliott can't be anything other than a first team certainty when he's been the best player on the pitch in the majority of the games so far.

I think many of the goals we've conceded have come from us losing possession unnecessarily either with long balls out of defence that don't stick or misplaced passes in midfield.

To my mind it's fairly simple, we need players to bring the ball forward until they're challenged and then pass it, not lump the ball direct in Trundle's general direction as soon as they get it and we don't need LJ running back to collect the ball from defence only to turn around and chip it at Trundle from 50 yards away.

That's why I'd like to see Noble given a chance at partnering Elliott. Noble rarely if ever gives the ball away, even under pressure from two or three players. His passing is less ambitious than Johnson's and he's less likely to create a goal with an exceptional ball but if we retain the ball more the wingers will see it more often (and I agree they should be hugging the line looking for service more).

On Sproule, he hasn't earned his place for me. Wilson was doing a good job on the right wing apart from tucking in a bit too much and Sproule needs to convince that he can do a better one before he starts there - he hasn't looked the part so far.

[ooRya]

I think most people like to see us playing with 2 wingers, as potentially it leads to exciting attacking football. But the problem with doing so is that it leads to fielding a weak midfield. Not the players fault, but simply down to the fact that you are only going to have 2 players there.

If we are going to continue with 2 wingers then the only way to strengthen the midfield is to change the formation - either a 3-5-2 or 4-5-1.

[downendcity]

In my view one of biggest weaknesses for a few seasons has been the lack of width to our play and not having layers capable of getting past defences to deliver balls into the box from near the byline.

In view of this , I was really pleased to see GJ sign McIndoe and Sproule as it would give us pace and width on both flanks. Unfortunatley, with Sproule's suspension we have not seen them in tandem and when Sproule did come in it was of position as a striker, alongside another player out of position - trundle the target man. Wilson doesn't strike me as a natural wide player and he tends to come inside more so narrowing the shape and this makes us imbalanced.

Another post made reference to the fact that playing 2 men wide will leave the midfield weak. This is about whether you worry more about what the opposition do to you compared to what you can do to the opposition. Playing 2 wide men might leave us exposed if one of central midfield is Lee Johnson, but what if you played Skuse and Elliott together, that would be a much stronger unit and both of them are fit and mobile? Also, with 2 quick wide men the opposition is stretched , leaving more space for Trundle to work in, especialy if he is playing jut off of someone like Byfield.

We,ve tended to rely on strong defence for too long, and perhaps we need to look at how we can compete as an offensive unit. There has been justifiable criticism of the long ball tactics we tend to employ and with 2 wide men it gives more options as long as the ball is played through midfield rather than as a result of hopeful long balls.

[MATT BCFC]

The thing is though most are strikers are no good in the air. You could put decent crosses in all day for Trundle and Sproule and they aint going to convert many. Byfield looks decent in the air but hes not the biggest.

[Seend Red]

All this passing the buck is a joke, every player who crosses the white line with a City shirt on his back is responsible for their own performance, blaming Johnson poor displays on the wingers or blaming Trundles poor form on the notion we're not playing the correct stike partner is all pie in the sky and excuse making. If they're not performing they should be dropped ,thats why you have a squad and one person poor form is the chance for another to come in and shine,

I'd even go as far as to say give Jevons the nod on Saturday over Trundle. He could not do any less and as been scoring good goals in the ressies.

Let hold the individual accountable for there mistakes and poor form and stop the excuses.

[Nibor]

Getting on the end of a cross coming in flat at roughly head height and being a decent target man winning looping 50 yard direct balls are two entirely different things IMO. One is all about timing and the other is about strength. I'm sure Trundle and Byfield can feed off crosses but neither looks like they want long ball service. To be fair few strikers do.

[downendcity]

The thing is though most are strikers are no good in the air. You could put decent crosses in all day for Trundle and Sproule and they aint going to convert many. Byfield looks decent in the air but hes not the biggest.

Sproule is not a striker- ideally he would be the one putting the crosses.

Also, the most dangerous crosses are not necessarily those in the air to the far post. Defenders will tell you that the killer cross is the one crossed with pace across the face of the goal. As long as it is delivered from close to the byline the strikers are running on to it but defenders are running back to cover and goalkeepers will beb in 2 minds about whether to coem or stay.

[Nibor]

Let hold the individual accountable for there mistakes and poor form and stop the excuses.

Yeah, I can imagine that conversation:

GJ: I'm going to drop you for Jevons on Saturday, you've not played well so far.

Trundle: OK boss, I didn't know you wanted me to play like Duncan Ferguson when you brought me here, I'm sure Jevons will do better as a targetman.

[ooRya]

In my view one of biggest weaknesses for a few seasons has been the lack of width to our play and not having layers capable of getting past defences to deliver balls into the box from near the byline.

In view of this , I was really pleased to see GJ sign McIndoe and Sproule as it would give us pace and width on both flanks. Unfortunatley, with Sproule's suspension we have not seen them in tandem and when Sproule did come in it was of position as a striker, alongside another player out of position - trundle the target man. Wilson doesn't strike me as a natural wide player and he tends to come inside more so narrowing the shape and this makes us imbalanced.

Another post made reference to the fact that playing 2 men wide will leave the midfield weak. This is about whether you worry more about what the opposition do to you compared to what you can do to the opposition. Playing 2 wide men might leave us exposed if one of central midfield is Lee Johnson, but what if you played Skuse and Elliott together, that would be a much stronger unit and both of them are fit and mobile? Also, with 2 quick wide men the opposition is stretched , leaving more space for Trundle to work in, especialy if he is playing jut off of someone like Byfield.

We,ve tended to rely on strong defence for too long, and perhaps we need to look at how we can compete as an offensive unit. There has been justifiable criticism of the long ball tactics we tend to employ and with 2 wide men it gives more options as long as the ball is played through midfield rather than as a result of hopeful long balls.

In my opinion, most football games are won by the team that controls the midfield. They are the link between the defence and the front line. If you're weak in midfield it leads to playing long balls from the back to the front. I agree that playing with 2 quick wide men should lead to the opposition being stretched....but only if they get the ball, and if they stay wide. Playing 4-4-2 means that the wingers have to play narrow, so reducing their effectiveness as an attacking force.

[Seend Red]

Yeah, I can imagine that conversation:

GJ: I'm going to drop you for Jevons on Saturday, you've not played well so far.

Trundle: OK boss, I didn't know you wanted me to play like Duncan Ferguson when you brought me here, I'm sure Jevons will do better as a targetman.

There are those excuses again.

I'm sure we'd all like to watch football played in the style of Arsenal, but it's not realistic with the players we have at our disposal, it a fact that clubs like Bristol City have to mixs it up and fight for every ball, so that might mean Trundle may have to quickly learn to make more of an effort when the ball is in the air, you talk as if everytime LT has received the ball to feet he's destoyed his markers which just isn't true, most times he'll turn to to his left foot and is quite predictable for opposing defenders.

[Belfastcityfan]

There are those excuses again.

I'm sure we'd all like to watch football played in the style of Arsenal, but it's not realistic with the players we have at our disposal, it a fact that clubs like Bristol City have to mixs it up and fight for every ball, so that might mean Trundle may have to quickly learn to make more of an effort when the ball is in the air, you talk as if everytime LT has received the ball to feet he's destoyed his markers which just isn't true, most times he'll turn to to his left foot and is quite predictable for opposing defenders.

This man's got a point Nibor! (Bit like us this season )

[Belfastcityfan]

All this passing the buck is a joke, every player who crosses the white line with a City shirt on his back is responsible for their own performance, blaming Johnson poor displays on the wingers or blaming Trundles poor form on the notion we're not playing the correct stike partner is all pie in the sky and excuse making. If they're not performing they should be dropped ,thats why you have a squad and one person poor form is the chance for another to come in and shine,

I'd even go as far as to say give Jevons the nod on Saturday over Trundle. He could not do any less and as been scoring good goals in the ressies.

Let hold the individual accountable for there mistakes and poor form and stop the excuses.

AMEN BROTHER!

[Nibor]

There are those excuses again.

I'm sure we'd all like to watch football played in the style of Arsenal, but it's not realistic with the players we have at our disposal, it a fact that clubs like Bristol City have to mixs it up and fight for every ball, so that might mean Trundle may have to quickly learn to make more of an effort when the ball is in the air, you talk as if everytime LT has received the ball to feet he's destoyed his markers which just isn't true, most times he'll turn to to his left foot and is quite predictable for opposing defenders.

It's not an excuse it's a bloody obvious fact. Trundle isn't a targetman, we didn't buy him to be a targetman but we seem to be playing football that requires him to be one and criticising him for not being good at it.

It's got nowt to do with playing like Arsenal, it's got to do with playing to our strengths and if any two of Trundle, Byfield and Jevons (or for that matter Sproule or Murray) are up front then hitting 50 yard balls into the air hopefully isn't playing to our strengths.

Trundle sees very little ball to his feet and he's looked most dangerous when he has. Of course he doesn't beat his man every time but I am certain that Trundle and Byfield as a front two will get goals if we supply them to feet and from the wings. We need to relax and pass the ball not lump it, that's all.

[Seend Red]

Everyone knows he's better on the floor than in the air but thats no excuse for making half hearted efforts, he's a big lump and I'm sure with a bit more conviction he'd win his fair share, he doesnt even have to win the ball ,just stand his ground and make it difficult for the defender so the ball ins't constantly coming back thus putting pressure on the midfield and defence.

Trundle has publically admitted to not playing well and said he could do more. Strangely though you still blame tactics and others ?

[Bristol Boy]

I think we can all agree that all of the midfielders are capable of playing in the championship and most would agree that Trundle and Byfield can hack it at this level - others question the ability of Enoch Jevons JMW etc...

I'll need to see a lot more of LT & DB before I agree with that statement, based on what I've seen so far.

What I think we have done this year is added a mdfielder that plays differently to most midfielders - Elliott is a powerful midfielder who runs from box to box and has the ability to do this for 90 minutes - but when we add him to our midfield we lose our natural formation for a 4-4-2 he has either won the ball back or returning from being up front but rarely do you see him and Johnson form a natural midfield of one's a ball getter the other sprays the passes and if he is getting pressurised then the ball winner usually has the ability to spray the passes around too - but this is where it seems to me that we are falling down - Elliott can do the things he does really well and it might be necessary in this league that we do this but what we don't then have is a back up passer of the ball when we have the ball and Johnson is under pressure - the ball goes to McAllister or Orr and sometimes to Carey to make the passes that the 2nd midfielder needs to make due to our primary midfielder being pressurised out of the game.

Good point and one problem with the wingers, like the forwards, is where they receive the ball and how they recieve it-A lot of that is down to our midfield general or more accurately, lack of one.

I would like to think that Elliott is an option for midfield rather than first team certainty as I feel that the problems we have is not the attackers or teh defenders and nt the individual abilities of the midfielders but rather the ability of the midfielders to interact with each other to create the width and the clinical passes that our attackers can thrive on. Take a look at WBA midfield the wingers stay out wide but they have two midfielders who are able to make quick and accurate passed from one flank to the other which we don't have when we have Elliott in the team - Skuse can make those passes, Wilson could make those passes if playing in centre of midfield, Johnson can make those passes as can Noble but Elliott possesses different outstanding qualities but I don't think passing is top of his abilities.

I still reckon all of our midfielders look better and more comfortable in a three than a two

Put Johnson and Skuse/Wilson in centre of midfield - leave Elliott on the bench - we might see more of a cohesive midfield with the ability to make incisive passes, that can transfer the ball quickly and efficiently from one wing to the other and subsequently make the chances that our strikers can feed off.

In terms of our best midfield I can't believe that Noble isn't in it? LJ & BW in entral midfield would be as big disaster as LJ & DN-Walk through

Once ahead we replace Skuse or Johnson depending on how many we are infront by as his talents are far more suited to a defensive formation than a fluent attacking style that isnt needed when we got to play out the remainder of the game.

I like your confidence but we need a team that can defend and attack over the whole game.

[Nibor]

Everyone knows he's better on the floor than in the air but thats no excuse for making half hearted efforts, he's a big lump and I'm sure with a bit more conviction he'd win his fair share, he doesnt even have to win the ball ,just stand his ground and make it difficult for the defender so the ball ins't constantly coming back thus putting pressure on the midfield and defence.

Trundle has publically admitted to not playing well and said he could do more. Strangely though you still blame tactics and others ?

I've not said Trundle has played well, quite the reverse in fact. I just think a big factor in it is that we're playing dumb football in the final third and he's been up front with a winger - effectively on his own - for much of it. It's hard to play well when you're asked to do a job that you're not suited to.

He's not a big lump either, where'd you get that idea from? 11 1/2 stone and barely 6ft, it's not like he's got the size or build for the job. Brooker is our only effective target man and is the same height and 2 1/2 stone heavier.

What I haven't heard from anyone whining about Trundle is a decent alternative. Jevons is the only one fit and he is going to have even less luck if we play the same way.

[Bristol Boy]

It's not an excuse it's a bloody obvious fact. Trundle isn't a targetman, we didn't buy him to be a targetman but we seem to be playing football that requires him to be one and criticising him for not being good at it.

It's got nowt to do with playing like Arsenal, it's got to do with playing to our strengths and if any two of Trundle, Byfield and Jevons (or for that matter Sproule or Murray) are up front then hitting 50 yard balls into the air hopefully isn't playing to our strengths.

Trundle sees very little ball to his feet and he's looked most dangerous when he has. Of course he doesn't beat his man every time but I am certain that Trundle and Byfield as a front two will get goals if we supply them to feet and from the wings. We need to relax and pass the ball not lump it, that's all.

Looking at it-Why does GJ get the team lumping it? Because, on 70% of occassions, that's what happens and passing isn't amongts the uber strengths of Carey, Orr & Fontaine.

Our midfield, is ineffective in the attacking third and LJ give the ball away to much in the other 2/3rds.They should be taking the ball off the defenders and getting quality service out to the wide players, in behind the full backs and to the feet of LT & DB-They aren't, particularly away from home where to say we're punchless is an understatement.

When I looked at Howard again on the highlights, Christ, what a difference from our two.I think Elliott's a decent ball winner & box to box player, but he'll never pass and score goals like that.

It's OK playing with two strikers and buying four wide players in the last six months, but if you don't get the ball to them, it doesn't matter if you've got Drogba up front.

In terms of LT he, in keeping with the others, doesn't get great service however, when the ball is played into his feet and he has his back to goal, he is far to easilt brushed aside by central defenders and for a man of his stature, that's very disappointing.He doesn't compete in the air.

[Seend Red]

I've not said Trundle has played well, quite the reverse in fact. I just think a big factor in it is that we're playing dumb football in the final third and he's been up front with a winger - effectively on his own - for much of it. It's hard to play well when you're asked to do a job that you're not suited to.

I agree that playing Sproule up top hasn't helped but like Ive always said thats not why Trundle has played so poorly.

He's not a big lump either, where'd you get that idea from? 11 1/2 stone and barely 6ft, it's not like he's got the size or build for the job. Brooker is our only effective target man and is the same height and 2 1/2 stone heavier.

He closer to 12 stone and is 6ft tall,Hardly an anorexic midget! It not about that anyway, it just about LT making it tougher for oposing defenders and not giving them a moments peace.