Cardiff Away

[reddog]

It's called a logical extension. If it's OK to curtail freedom to "protect" us, where does it stop exactly? Who judges?

You know exactly the point being made. You're happy to see law abiding citizens inconvenienced and a basic right - that to go where you please - removed in the name of protection. The truth is it's just to make the old bill's life a bit easier.

Are you connected to the police in some way by chance?

Logical extension? If that's how you are justifying this nonsense I see no point in continuing this discussion.

[Nibor]

Logical extension? If that's how you are justifying this nonsense I see no point in continuing this discussion.

I'll take that as a yes then.

[Portishead Red]

You really should know better.

Perhaps when you've actually been involved in the policing of these games, also Swansea, then maybe you can actually have a valid point of view. Until you have, don't talk of things you know nothing about. Cardiff and Bristol City have a long standing, deep seated hatred of each other which on every previous occasion, in the days before restrictions on travel, has resulted in violence breaking out all around the city centre from early morning until late at night. Why should we have to put up with that?

Explain to me why you feel that the police are (well) paid to control these morons.

Also explain to me who pays for the damage to property ( maybe your car), injuries to innocent fans caught up in it ( maybe you or your family), and to the (well paid) police who will undoubtedly be injured protecting people ( like you) who want these restrictions lifted.

No, the police are NOT paid to control the hoards of mindless thugs who come out of the woodwork for all these high profile games and then crawl back under their stones for the next one. Do you want the recent scenes at Notts Forest re-enacted in our city centre or around the streets of Ashton? I sincerely hope not.

Until these idiots find something else to amuse themselves with, I'm afraid you, and I, will have to put up with these restrictions.

I look forward to your reply.

Did i wake you up?!

I agree about the deep seated hatred between city and cardiff, however this isnt the 1980's anymore and SERIOUS trouble these days is pretty few and far between at city matches.

With regards to my lazy policing comment, i feel that i speak from a strong position having experienced the hatred at first hand - just like you.

So tell me, why is it that other forces who have to deal with bigger games such as Rangers v Celtic, Man u v Liverpool, Spurs v Arsenal, Wolves v WBA and any game involving Millwall cope perfectly well with away fans making their own way to the respective grounds? Infact at Spurs, there is just 1 line of stewards seperating the fans!!!!

These mindless thugs will never operate in groups of less than 30 - so how hard can it really be to control??! Its not like your dealing with hard to find individuals.....and half the time, its bravado anyway!

So to finish, those who want to cause trouble will cause trouble - but they are a minority. Law abiding fans such as me and you as well as thousands of other City fans will not cause trouble. The police and the 2 clubs have taken the easy way out - simple as that.

See you at Norwich!

[reddog]

I'll take that as a yes then.

That'll be the logical extension in operation again!!!

[Nibor]

That'll be the logical extension in operation again!!!

Ah another successful dodge, well done.

You can pretend all you like, you know the point I'm making.

Where do you draw the line? If the police are allowed to circumvent the law that protects our rights to freedom of movement why do we bother having them?

[Portishead Red]

Ah another successful dodge, well done.

You can pretend all you like, you know the point I'm making.

Where do you draw the line? If the police are allowed to circumvent the law that protects our rights to freedom of movement why do we bother having them?

Nibor, Reddog is a retired dog handler and i work for Avon and Somerset as well. What is your point??

[Nibor]

Nibor, Reddog is a retired dog handler and i work for Avon and Somerset as well. What is your point??

My point is explained several times in this thread and it's pretty much the same as your own - law abiding fans should not have to suffer inconvenience just to make the police's job more convenient.

I'm unsurprised that one of the few people to argue that it's OK for the police to circumvent the law in this manner formerly worked for them, nor am I surprised he dodged not just the question but all discussion on the point.

[Seend Red]

You can't point to one choice still remaining as an excuse for others being curtailed.

You have two remaining choices,go,don't go.

The old bill are not doing this to keep people safe, they're doing it to make their job easier to manage.

Well that is outrageous,fancy trying to control the situation in the most simpliest, efficient way. They should let battles break out every where just to keep the likes of you happy. At least then they'd be earning there money rather than sat around eating doughnuts and drinking coffee eh!

If they simply did the job properly and locked up the offenders, it would take more effort in the short term but produce better results in the long term.

Since when was it the responabillity of the Police to lock offenders up?....CPS,courts,judges yes.Police no.

Madness? Far from it. It's completely normal behaviour for everyone else in the country, in every country in europe and was for us for decades.

I understand your stance but you have to understand this just ain't any other game. You still haven't replied about the Police doing a good job in there quest to prevent crime, surely prevention is bettter than waiting for it to happen?

People should have the choice to decide what's safe for themselves.

The Police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they let fans travel under there own asteem and innocent fans are injured can you imagine the out cry from poeple asking what the Police were doing to protect these people. This is a lose lose situation for the old bill.

Most people who are violent at football are violent away from it too, and by being lazy the police miss the best chance to catch them and make the whole country safe 24 hours a day in the correct and legal manner.

I'm sure the Police would love to catch them, get the Goverment to build some more Prison then maybe the courts will have somewhere to put them and the CPS might actually send more of these idiots to court in the first place to face prison. The reality is though when you have perverts and murderers walking our streets the likelyhood of someone going down for clumping someone at football is unlikely.

[Fodbarmyarmy]

law abiding fans should not have to suffer inconvenience

And neither should joe public going about his or her normal Saturday

Football is not the be all and end all......this decision is also to to give the normal john a chance to go about their daily routines without risk

At the end of the day we only have ourselves to blame....

When was the last time you did your bit to point out trouble makers or report unsocial behaviour at a football game?

if there was no trouble at Football then we could all go to games how we like - probably wouldn't even need all ticket regulations either nor all seating and GET THIS the East end would be open....

but there is violence deep rooted in the football culture and hence there are restrictions we all have to face

And in answer to the original question - why should the job of the Police be made more difficult by the chance of moronic thugs looking for trouble?

r

[Rob k]

And neither should joe public going about his or her normal Saturday

Football is not the be all and end all......this decision is also to to give the normal john a chance to go about their daily routines without risk

At the end of the day we only have ourselves to blame....

When was the last time you did your bit to point out trouble makers or report unsocial behaviour at a football game?

if there was no trouble at Football then we could all go to games how we like - probably wouldn't even need all ticket regulations either nor all seating and GET THIS the East end would be open....

but there is violence deep rooted in the football culture and hence there are restrictions we all have to face

And in answer to the original question - why should the job of the Police be made more difficult by the chance of moronic thugs looking for trouble?

r

i just read an article and this piece caught my eye,

The 3,788 arrests represented 0.01 percent of spectators at domestic and international games, the Home Office said.

So the threat cant be that bad if the only people arrested was 0.01% of people who went to footall.

[Seend Red]

I would say there is a large amount of city fans who have friends or family in Wales or even work colleagues it is only 40 miles away, house prices used to be lower over there so a lot of people moved.

Possibly true but that was not the point made,I said how many thugs,idiots call them what you will would know people happy to buy tickets for them in the home ends of Ninnian?

Plus I expect you will have to be on the clubs database to purchase regardless of location.

[Nibor]

I understand your stance but you have to understand this just ain't any other game. You still haven't replied about the Police doing a good job in there quest to prevent crime, surely prevention is bettter than waiting for it to happen?

I'm not sure what you mean I haven't replied to?

No, prevention is not better than just waiting for it to happen in my book when prevention means curtailing basic rights and not actually taking the scumbags off the streets so they are free to do it on the 364 other days of the year in which the police aren't supervising coach trips.

Surely catching the people who carry on in this manner and will outside of football too is better than merely preventing them from doing it on one occasion?

The Police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they let fans travel under there own asteem and innocent fans are injured can you imagine the out cry from poeple asking what the Police were doing to protect these people. This is a lose lose situation for the old bill.

No it's not. All they need to do is police the match properly just like any other. Police do get praise when things go well. There is nothing special about this game in particular when you compare it to many other games that do not suffer from the same restrictions. If police in other areas can cope then why can't those in A&S and South Wales?

I'm sure the Police would love to catch them, get the Goverment to build some more Prison then maybe the courts will have somewhere to put them and the CPS might actually send more of these idiots to court in the first place to face prison. The reality is though when you have perverts and murderers walking our streets the likelyhood of someone going down for clumping someone at football is unlikely.

So the premise that there aren't enough prisons is an acceptable reason for the police to infringe liberty? Deary me.

And neither should joe public going about his or her normal Saturday

Football is not the be all and end all......this decision is also to to give the normal john a chance to go about their daily routines without risk

I don't believe that there is very much additional risk at all, certainly not enough to justify what they're doing IMO.

At the end of the day we only have ourselves to blame....

No I don't. I've never been involved in football violence.

I shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of someone else's unlawful actions. Simple principal of a free country.

When was the last time you did your bit to point out trouble makers or report unsocial behaviour at a football game?

I haven't reported anyone, I did stop an argument that looked like it was going to result in violence at an away game last season. I wasn't paid for it either.

if there was no trouble at Football then we could all go to games how we like - probably wouldn't even need all ticket regulations either nor all seating and GET THIS the East end would be open....

There's very little violence at football these days, certainly far less than in town on a Saturday night for example. I simply can't see a justification for treating genuine football fans like criminals. They should identify the tiny proportion of criminals and deal with them.

but there is violence deep rooted in the football culture and hence there are restrictions we all have to face

And in answer to the original question - why should the job of the Police be made more difficult by the chance of moronic thugs looking for trouble?

There isn't deep rooted violence in the football culture. Football culture is broad and deep and it's been around over a century. It's had a violence problem for a decade or two that is relatively minor in that it only ever involved a tiny proportion of people. You're massively overstating it.

It is the job of the police to deal with criminals. It is not the job of the police to treat all football fans as criminals.

I must admit I find the number of people that think that it's acceptable for the police to trample on personal freedom to make their job easier far more scary than the slight chance of a nobhead from Cardiff lobbing half a brick in my general direction.

[cider11]

Plus I expect you will have to be on the clubs database to purchase regardless of location.

You don't normally have to be on a clubs database to buy home tickets, as last season i got tickets to Swansea, Yeovil, Millwall in the home ends when city were playing there without any question of me being an away fan in the home end. But if you have a BS post code could make it more difficult to get a ticket in the cardiff end for the game against city if not bought tickets with them before.

[reddog]

My point is explained several times in this thread and it's pretty much the same as your own - law abiding fans should not have to suffer inconvenience just to make the police's job more convenient.

I'm unsurprised that one of the few people to argue that it's OK for the police to circumvent the law in this manner formerly worked for them, nor am I surprised he dodged not just the question but all discussion on the point.

Not "one of the few" having looked at the posts.

I don't feel I have dodged anything, what I won't do is join in your "logical extension" argument, and who I worked for has absolutely no bearing on my stance, it just gives me, perhaps, a more informed insight as to the problems. If I disagreed with it, believe me, I would say so.

Anyway, just got back from Norwich, great result eh?

Can we agree on that?

Just to finish, one other "logical extension" for you Nibor - is it acceptable to you that can't we choose to sit where we like in other stadia instead of being forced to sit in a particular "away fans" area, often in the corner or on the side? If it is, where is the difference?

[tin]

This is a farce in all honesty. The Police shouldn't be in a position to make the 'all coach' call as it's nowhere near as simple as that for our fans.

For one reason, our fanbase isn't simply restricted to South Bristol and the surrounding areas. Why can't people who are, say at Uni, in Cardiff just go to the game off their own backs? The Police shouldn't make it a necessity that they make a pointless journey back to Bristol simply to go to a game on their doorstep, should they?!

We're much more of a target going on coaches and they can be attacked anywhere en route to and from the ground. Surely people would be safer to go to the game off their own backs, in plain clothes and by there own means?

[Portishead Red]

This is a farce in all honesty. The Police shouldn't be in a position to make the 'all coach' call as it's nowhere near as simple as that for our fans.

For one reason, our fanbase isn't simply restricted to South Bristol and the surrounding areas. Why can't people who are, say at Uni, in Cardiff just go to the game off their own backs? The Police shouldn't make it a necessity that they make a pointless journey back to Bristol simply to go to a game on their doorstep, should they?!

We're much more of a target going on coaches and they can be attacked anywhere en route to and from the ground. Surely people would be safer to go to the game off their own backs, in plain clothes and by there own means?

My point exactly!

[Guest east_dundry_red]

If they don't do a pick up in south wales i will not be happy. Though i would go to bristol to get a coach but refuse to get back on it.

Ive checked it is illegal for them to make you get on a coach there unless its part of the condition of sale for the ticket, but in no way can they make you get back on the coaches after.

[Nibor]

Not "one of the few" having looked at the posts.

I'll leave the counting to you but it looks like a tiny minority to me.

I don't feel I have dodged anything, what I won't do is join in your "logical extension" argument,

You won't answer plain and simple questions either.

What gives the police the right to dictate over and above freedom of movement? Where do you draw the line?

and who I worked for has absolutely no bearing on my stance, it just gives me, perhaps, a more informed insight as to the problems. If I disagreed with it, believe me, I would say so.

You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you're saying being ex-OB doesn't affect your stance and on the other you're saying you're more informed. I think it's quite obvious that you're going to have much more faith in the old bill than most people.

Anyway, just got back from Norwich, great result eh?

Can we agree on that?

Indeed.

Just to finish, one other "logical extension" for you Nibor - is it acceptable to you that can't we choose to sit where we like in other stadia instead of being forced to sit in a particular "away fans" area, often in the corner or on the side? If it is, where is the difference?

I'll do you the courtesy of answering. It is quite possible for me to sit in the home end if I want to, so you're actually incorrect to say I'm forced to do anything.

But that aside it is acceptable to me for several reasons:

It's longstanding tradition that there are separate areas for different supporters in many (not all) sports.

It doesn't inconvenience me in any way.

It doesn't prevent me from making the most of the trip by visiting friends or going for a meal and a pint.

It doesn't have any affect on the revenue of either club.

I've no objection to the club making sensible decisions about safety on their premises at the game, that's markedly different to restricting what I do before and after the game.

It doesn't contravene human rights law.

[reddog]

I'll leave the counting to you but it looks like a tiny minority to me.

You won't answer plain and simple questions either.

What gives the police the right to dictate over and above freedom of movement? Where do you draw the line?

You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you're saying being ex-OB doesn't affect your stance and on the other you're saying you're more informed. I think it's quite obvious that you're going to have much more faith in the old bill than most people.

Indeed.

I'll do you the courtesy of answering. It is quite possible for me to sit in the home end if I want to, so you're actually incorrect to say I'm forced to do anything.

But that aside it is acceptable to me for several reasons:

It's longstanding tradition that there are separate areas for different supporters in many (not all) sports.

It doesn't inconvenience me in any way.

It doesn't prevent me from making the most of the trip by visiting friends or going for a meal and a pint.

It doesn't have any affect on the revenue of either club.

I've no objection to the club making sensible decisions about safety on their premises at the game, that's markedly different to restricting what I do before and after the game.

It doesn't contravene human rights law.

I disagree. I'm not contradicting myself. I'm just saying I have more experience of the problems than you probably have. I have physically been in the middle of it on more occasions than I care to remember with Cardiff and Swansea fans, both at Ashton and Eastville/Twerton, whereas you and others have, hopefully, been either on the periphery looking on or reading about on various forums/press.

If you knew me better, you would know that I don't have a lot of faith in the "OB" as you like to call them, I don't agree with an awful lot of the things that they do in regards to a lot of other matters and policies. However, in this case, and Swansea, I can see no alternative. The problem is not the 30 or so hard core, it is the 300+ hangers on that they attract. As you know, arrangements are made via e-mail and text to "meet" away from the ground, sometimes in other towns/villages. I remember Monmouth being trashed back in the 80s by City fans meeting up with a rival gang, but I can't remember who it was I'm afraid.

The Police have the right to act in this way in order to prevent SERIOUS public disorder. This includes the responsibilty to other law-abiding members of the public doing their shopping etc. Much the same, perhaps as the point you make about clubs making decisions about safety on their premises, only with much wider responsibilities. This is the same power used when certain marches are banned or have been given a designated route. I'm sure this is not in breach of Human Rights as this would have been challenged years ago.

I accept that by having us all on coaches, in theory, represents a target, but if the Police have done the job properly, as they have up to now, the opposing fans have been cleared away from the area and we are given an escort to/from the ground. I have been on all the coaches that have run to Cardiff, Swansea and Horfield and there has never been a problem.

I accept your comment that you are able to sit in other areas of away grounds, but NOT if you have to buy your ticket from the City. I didn't make that point clearly enough.

Believe me Nibor, I don't like this any more than you do. But the club and Police have made a judgment call, and the choice you and I have is, as a previous post says, you either go or don't go.

[Nibor]

Believe me Nibor, I don't like this any more than you do. But the club and Police have made a judgment call, and the choice you and I have is, as a previous post says, you either go or don't go.

Well fair enough, I'll agree to disagree with you. Myself I would value people's freedom to come and go as they please as more important than lowering the chances of an incident, I think the police cope well enough elsewhere in the country with similar situations without having to resort to those measures.

[Portishead Red]

Right Nibor, you're starting to get right on my nerves now.

The bottom line is, everybody is going by coach END OF. The reason for this is to ensure the safety of ALL fans. It wont make it any safer if city fans were allowed to go in "plain clothes" so to speak - infact it would be 100 times worse. My 2nd team is Blackburn Rovers, and i went over for an FA Cup match "under my own arrangements" (as you so desperatly want) and watched on in horror as Cardiff "fans" attacked INNOCENT Rovers fans. It has **** all to do with human rights or freedom of whatever shite you are spouting, the fact of the matter is, if city fans are allowed to go under their own esteem, world war 3 is on the cards (were you there last time when we were allowed to go under our own esteem). Now i AM contradicting myself, and no doubt Mr Reddog is smiling away, but having just had a 20 minute phone call with him, i can see his point totally. Innocent fans WILL be caught up in the trouble, property will be damaged - going by coach is the only viable option to prevent this happening. If you don't like it - don't go.

[Nibor]

Right Nibor, you're starting to get right on my nerves now.

Well take some deep breaths or something.

The bottom line is, everybody is going by coach END OF. The reason for this is to ensure the safety of ALL fans. It wont make it any safer if city fans were allowed to go in "plain clothes" so to speak - infact it would be 100 times worse.

In your opinion, not fact. There is very little special about City vs Cardiff as compared to other games that happen every weekend yet the police seem to cope with those. Why is this one different? I think it comes down to the ability of the police forces involved. Our club is held over a barrel by the old bill despite working very hard to deal with potential troublemakers. I think it's wrong.

My 2nd team is Blackburn Rovers, and i went over for an FA Cup match "under my own arrangements" (as you so desperatly want) and watched on in horror as Cardiff "fans" attacked INNOCENT Rovers fans.

Then it wasn't policed as well as it could have been. We all know incidents like this have happened, that doesn't mean that bubble trips are the only option. Pretty much any fixture has had violent incidents occur in the past, many have had more problems than this one.

It has **** all to do with human rights or freedom of whatever shite you are spouting, the fact of the matter is, if city fans are allowed to go under their own esteem, world war 3 is on the cards (were you there last time when we were allowed to go under our own esteem).

It has everything to do with freedom of movement. I'm quite capable of looking after myself and judging what's safe for myself. If people want to go on official coaches they can. Why should I be forced to? We've been over there before without world war 3 kicking off, yes there will be some arseholes around but most of those are on file and easily identifiable through CCTV. Identify them and nick them, then they won't be able to do it next time.

Now i AM contradicting myself, and no doubt Mr Reddog is smiling away, but having just had a 20 minute phone call with him, i can see his point totally. Innocent fans WILL be caught up in the trouble, property will be damaged - going by coach is the only viable option to prevent this happening. If you don't like it - don't go.

Yes you are indeed contradicting yourself. I don't like it and I won't go. That doesn't somehow mean that the police are right to act in this manner.

[Red Ferret]

too many quotes, my head hurts

[reddog]

Nibor - FACT - if you want to go to Cardiff to watch Bristol City and stand with the other City fans, you WILL go by coach

- FACT - this decision is a JOINT Bristol City/Police decision, it is not an "old bill" decision.

- FACT - this has NOTHING to do with Freedom of Movement, this is to prevent SERIOUS public disorder as defined

in the Crime and Disorder Act 1998

- FACT - You are NOT capable of looking after yourself when confronted with a gang of hardened yobs.

So to your last but one comment - "yes there will be some arseholes around but most of those are on file and easily identifiable through CCTV. Identify them and nick them, then they won't be able to do it next time."

Why in Gods name let them do it in the first place? Yes this could happen anytime, anyplace, but we KNOW it is EXTREMELY LIKELY to happen when these two clubs meet. You'd be happy then, to meet Mr Stanley, then rest assured in the knowledge that the person responsible will be identified by CCTV? Maybe on your planet, but not this one. Better you than me mate!

[Nibor]

FACT - if you want to go to Cardiff to watch Bristol City and stand with the other City fans, you WILL go by coach

I've already said I won't be.

- FACT - this decision is a JOINT Bristol City/Police decision, it is not an "old bill" decision.

The club have in the past said otherwise.

- FACT - this has NOTHING to do with Freedom of Movement, this is to prevent SERIOUS public disorder as defined

in the Crime and Disorder Act 1998

There's nothing in that act that has anything to do with granting the police power to pre-empt suspected football violence.

The club are being advised by the police, they know full well if they don't follow the advice the police will just blame any problems on them. By blackmailing the club they are granting themselves powers that the law doesn't, in fact ones that contravene right explicitly protected by law.

- FACT - You are NOT capable of looking after yourself when confronted with a gang of hardened yobs.

I'm perfectly capable of looking after myself by not getting into that situation though. I've done it many times.

So to your last but one comment - "yes there will be some arseholes around but most of those are on file and easily identifiable through CCTV. Identify them and nick them, then they won't be able to do it next time."

Why in Gods name let them do it in the first place? Yes this could happen anytime, anyplace, but we KNOW it is EXTREMELY LIKELY to happen when these two clubs meet. You'd be happy then, to meet Mr Stanley, then rest assured in the knowledge that the person responsible will be identified by CCTV? Maybe on your planet, but not this one. Better you than me mate!

I think you're living in the 80s. The problems are nowhere near as bad now as you're making out.

You're trying to make it sound as though there will be hundreds of people tooled up fighting a pitched battle outside the away end. That's just not the case at all.

I don't see why this fixture is different to other high risk fixtures around the country that aren't subject to similar restrictions and you've not given any reason for that either.

I am not suggesting that we let people fight at football, I'm suggesting that the way to handle it is to police the bloody game properly just like every other force does.

I've already said I'll agree to disagree with you.

[scumbag]

Nibor - FACT - if you want to go to Cardiff to watch Bristol City and stand with the other City fans, you WILL go by coach

- FACT - this decision is a JOINT Bristol City/Police decision, it is not an "old bill" decision.

- FACT - this has NOTHING to do with Freedom of Movement, this is to prevent SERIOUS public disorder as defined

in the Crime and Disorder Act 1998

- FACT - You are NOT capable of looking after yourself when confronted with a gang of hardened yobs.

So to your last but one comment - "yes there will be some arseholes around but most of those are on file and easily identifiable through CCTV. Identify them and nick them, then they won't be able to do it next time."

Why in Gods name let them do it in the first place? Yes this could happen anytime, anyplace, but we KNOW it is EXTREMELY LIKELY to happen when these two clubs meet. You'd be happy then, to meet Mr Stanley, then rest assured in the knowledge that the person responsible will be identified by CCTV? Maybe on your planet, but not this one. Better you than me mate!

Totally agree, Cardiff is not a nice place to go at all, haven't been back since the 3-1 few years back, I'm an old bloke but getting to and from the game from the car it was almost impossible to avoid trouble, many people just minding their own business and keeping their heads down got caught up in some horrible events,

unfortunately some just stick their heads in the sand and insist that these problems don't happen anymore, the do and they have recently, Cardiff is one of the very few clubs left where there is seriously problems and over the years it has reached the point where this is the only sensible solution to the madness that happens in a Cardiff v City game, it doesn't matter what time you kick off, trouble will happen,

I remember a game at home few season ago 12pm kick off on a sunday and their was still trouble up and down winterstoke road prior and after the game, some games resort to extreme measures, unfortunatly whenever we play the welsh teams, TROUBLE FOLLOWS.

[scumbag]

In your opinion, not fact. There is very little special about City vs Cardiff as compared to other games that happen every weekend yet the police seem to cope with those. Why is this one different? I think it comes down to the ability of the police forces involved. Our club is held over a barrel by the old bill despite working very hard to deal with potential troublemakers. I think it's wrong.

Then it wasn't policed as well as it could have been. We all know incidents like this have happened, that doesn't mean that bubble trips are the only option. Pretty much any fixture has had violent incidents occur in the past, many have had more problems than this one.

you've got your head in the sand over this one, City v Cardiff is ALWAYS TROUBLE, their is genuine and unfortunate hatred between the fans, it's not just City v Cardiff, it's Cardiff v Bristol (both clubs) the trouble between the two clubs over the years has been endless, even resulting in us ending up on that unfortunate BBC program about the Trouble at Cardiff games.

Even for the 2 games when we played at the mill stad, there was trouble between City and Cardiff fans, which resulted in some of the CATS coaches getting stoned and bricked.

on a side note regarding the Blackburn v Arsenal game at Cardiff, I was actually at that game myself as managed to get free tickets, the welsh on that day were just interested in trouble with anyone english. Great game, but some horrible trouble up by the castle on that day.

[scumbag]

We're much more of a target going on coaches and they can be attacked anywhere en route to and from the ground. Surely people would be safer to go to the game off their own backs, in plain clothes and by there own means?

I've actually thought this same thing myself prior to last season against Swansea.

firstly people want to go wearing their City shirts, which they should be able todo.

however, back to the point, I must say I was VERY impressed with the welsh police last season for the swansea game, plain sailing from the motorway but the moment we left the motorway we went straight into an out of town coach park, where all coaches then had police escorts directly into the ground, not stopping for anything, they pretty much stopped swansea to get us in.

After the game we got held back for 15mins or so which was annoying, however this was soon offset afterwards, soon as we were on the coaches, the police again closed/blcoked all the roads and escorted the coaches back out of swansea, upon leaving you could see all the locals just stuck in their car parks while the police kept them back.

although not a fan of travelling via coach, I've never had such a trouble free trip to swansea before, in the past there has always been some idiots looking for trouble no matter how you try to avoid them.

Personally for one game a season such as Cardiff..........I don't like it, but going on my experiences in the past I damn sure enjoy the special treatment we get by being helped in and out of the game...SAFELY