Racism

[Cider army matt]

No. It isn't. Exactly the same excuses were being made for what you would call racist jokes 30 years ago, but times change. A lot of people thought they could use offensive racist remarks if their intentions were lighthearted, but perception is all, and the intended tone often doesn't reach the listener. By all means insult & wind up an opponent on an individual basis, but not by insulting a whole country or other group of people.

So all the people who chant 'sheep shaggers' need to be reported to he club then.

[ooRya]

I do.

I've had the same conversation with a mate of mine after a fair few ciders. (He's black and he studied law).

I was pointing out that skin colour is just a difference like your height/weight/shoe size, people outside whatever the local norm is for anything like that occasionally get the piss taken. EG If I went with him to Jamaica I'd expect to hear lots of cracks about milkmen.

He reckoned that piss taking and racism aren't the same thing, racism actually is about discrimination which is treating someone differently/unfairly and piss taking is just banter.

But, the other thing he said that made me think is that people actually do suffer racism in the UK whereas they don't generally suffer from baldism or sheep shaggerism, so they would understandably be much more sensitive about piss taking.

The thing that irritates me (and him actually) was that with everything being so ultra PC these days it tends to discourage people from even talking about the subject.

Strangely I don't think we will be able to say that racism as it is has gone away until it IS acceptable to take the piss based on skin colour.

Thanks Nibor.......you were able to get across the point I was trying to make far better than I was able to!

Your last paragraph sums it up perfectly for me. I think this is where the "PC Brigade" sometimes create problems rather than solves them.

It is a difficult subject to talk about, but I think too many people are eager to jump in and say "ooh that's awful" just to be seen as "politically correct", without bothering to actually think about the subject.

Personally, when I see somebody, I see a person - regardless of the colour of their skin. If I was to use the word "black" it would just be a description, the same as fat, tall, Welsh or whatever.

But....and it's a big BUT I guess.....I'm not black and I've never suffered from racist abuse, so I fully accept that some people may be upset by certain words or comments for reasons that I just don't understand.

[ashtonphil]

Thanks Nibor.......you were able to get across the point I was trying to make far better than I was able to!

Your last paragraph sums it up perfectly for me. I think this is where the "PC Brigade" sometimes create problems rather than solves them.

It is a difficult subject to talk about, but I think too many people are eager to jump in and say "ooh that's awful" just to be seen as "politically correct", without bothering to actually think about the subject.

Personally, when I see somebody, I see a person - regardless of the colour of their skin. If I was to use the word "black" it would just be a description, the same as fat, tall, Welsh or whatever.

But....and it's a big BUT I guess.....I'm not black and I've never suffered from racist abuse, so I fully accept that some people may be upset by certain words or comments for reasons that I just don't understand.

Nibor has got it spot on..

This has unfortunately been happening for years. It is no longer acceptable to make comments about people, you don't know, concerning the colour of their skin. Having mates of different ethnic backgrounds and religions and knowing how they will react allows you to have banter -with them, as it is based on a mutual friendship and respect.

To make comments at a football match about complete strangers is wrong.

I remember an incident in a pub (abroad) where a person called black members of the opposition a derogatory word to which I replied what about your own team, "oh they're honorary white people!!" I left the pub that second and refused to be in the person's presence again. It was nothing to do with City....rest assured but it does exist. We have black players too, do we abuse them in the same way!!

I believe that people must make a stand. I know that I would

Please report these people it has no place in modern society and certainly not at Ashton Gate

Sorry for the rant but I feel very strongly about this.....

[BCFC_Dan]

The difference is the 'sheep shagger' chants are purely banter,i can can accept that some people may find them offensive,but its different to shouting racist comments at a black player.

Why is it different? Please explain to me why it is OK in one instance and not in another because I don't understand.

[Nibor]

Why is it different? Please explain to me why it is OK in one instance and not in another because I don't understand.

Sheep shaggers don't get offended when you call them sheep shaggers, because there is no history of people suffering from discrimination against sheep shaggers.

The history of discrimination is the only thing at all that makes remarks about skin colour any different to remarks about anything else.

[BCFC_Dan]

Sheep shaggers don't get offended when you call them sheep shaggers, because there is no history of people suffering from discrimination against sheep shaggers.

The history of discrimination is the only thing at all that makes remarks about skin colour any different to remarks about anything else.

But there is a history of people suffering from discrimination against the Welsh, which is generally who those remarks are aimed at. OK, so maybe not as bad as some other people have suffered but that shouldn't be the point.

Would anti-semitic remarks be acceptable?

[Nibor]

But there is a history of people suffering from discrimination against the Welsh, which is generally who those remarks are aimed at. OK, so maybe not as bad as some other people have suffered but that shouldn't be the point.

Would anti-semitic remarks be acceptable?

The point is whether or not people get offended by the remarks.

The history of discrimination associated with remarks about skin colour is the reason a black footballer would be offended by them.

I've never heard of a history of discrimination against the welsh at all. What are you referring to there? Bear in mind discrimination is not name calling.

Nor have I ever met a welsh person offended by being called a sheep shagger in jest, have you?

What exactly is different about skin colour and height or weight? Have you ever sung a song about a pie eater?

[BCFC_Dan]

The point is whether or not people get offended by the remarks.

The history of discrimination associated with remarks about skin colour is the reason a black footballer would be offended by them.

I've never heard of a history of discrimination against the welsh at all. What are you referring to there? Bear in mind discrimination is not name calling.

I think you'll find that the English have spent most of the past millenium oppressing and discriminating against the Welsh. Not to mention the things they did to the Irish.

Nor have I ever met a welsh person offended by being called a sheep shagger in jest, have you?

I don't know. It's not the kind of thing I go around doing because I find it offensive.

What exactly is different about skin colour and height or weight? Have you ever sung a song about a pie eater?

Not since I was about 13, no.

[Nibor]

I think you'll find that the English have spent most of the past millenium oppressing and discriminating against the Welsh.

I doubt I will but feel free to give me examples of where someone has been discriminated against for being Welsh.

Not to mention the things they did to the Irish.

Yes well being half Irish and having an uncle who's a prominent Irish historian I am quite aware thanks. However I've never met an Irish person offended by an Irish joke either, they usually just tell an English one in response and have a good laugh.

I don't know. It's not the kind of thing I go around doing because I find it offensive.

Are you Welsh then?

Not since I was about 13, no.

I suppose you're going to tell me that you haven't made any remark whatsoever about anyone's physical appearance, nationality, background, occupation, personal hygiene, inability to hold their alcohol or anything since you were 13 either?

[Markman]

This thread started re one comment - I am sure I heard chants of Gypo and where,s your Caravan from the East End - was it City to Southampton or Southampton to City? I don't know but for some the chant of Gypo is equally racially offensive - and as I repeat this thread started re one comment not a "chant" by many - most people do know the cut off point - some idiots don't - as a tangent some stupid guy near me always abuses teams fom the North calling them

Northern "----" - but he bellows this at them with the likes of Bradley , Jamie Mac stood next to them and hearing the same thing - you can't explain the idiocy of this! And even when you point it out he still does it and it does not "count" as racist

[ooRya]

This thread started re one comment - I am sure I heard chants of Gypo and where,s your Caravan from the East End - was it City to Southampton or Southampton to City? I don't know but for some the chant of Gypo is equally racially offensive - and as I repeat this thread started re one comment not a "chant" by many - most people do know the cut off point - some idiots don't - as a tangent some stupid guy near me always abuses teams fom the North calling them

Northern "----" - but he bellows this at them with the likes of Bradley , Jamie Mac stood next to them and hearing the same thing - you can't explain the idiocy of this! And even when you point it out he still does it and it does not "count" as racist

See...this is just the sort of thing that I have a problem with.

The guy you mentioned isn't being "offensive" per se, it's just football banter. Same as someone shouting out "black so and so" isn't necessarily being racist.

If someone was to call you a "Southern b&stard", which word would offend you....Southern or b&stard?

[giles_23_bcfc]

See...this is just the sort of thing that I have a problem with.

The guy you mentioned isn't being "offensive" per se, it's just football banter. Same as someone shouting out "black so and so" isn't necessarily being racist.

If someone was to call you a "Southern b&stard", which word would offend you....Southern or b&stard?

Bo11ocks isnt it. Course its racist. Its a racist comment which is down to the person on the recieving end to think for themselves if they want to take it racially or not.

[Markman]

See...this is just the sort of thing that I have a problem with.

The guy you mentioned isn't being "offensive" per se, it's just football banter. Same as someone shouting out "black so and so" isn't necessarily being racist.

If someone was to call you a "Southern b&stard", which word would offend you....Southern or b&stard?

You slightly seem to miss the point - If you yell Northern Barsteward at a player stood next to your own player who comes from the same town as the opposing player - isn't that madness? Personally I don't mind fans chanting Southern whatever at me - that is part of fan culture - Racism is not and should be banned - but yell call be a Southern Barsteward one on one I will take it personally - yelling to an idividual player is just the same and is idiotic when your team are full of Northerners or vice versa!

[ooRya]

Bo11ocks isnt it. Course its racist. Its a racist comment which is down to the person on the recieving end to think for themselves if they want to take it racially or not.

No, I don't think it is necessarily.

It could just be a description of the person you're addressing. Same as "Fat" "Bald" "Ginger" "Northern" "Welsh" etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not that naive and I know that some people are being racist when they say things like that, I'm just saying that using the word "black" shouldn't always be viewed as wrong. That's where Political correctness fails IMO.

[giles_23_bcfc]

No, I don't think it is necessarily.

It could just be a description of the person you're addressing. Same as "Fat" "Bald" "Ginger" "Northern" "Welsh" etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not that naive and I know that some people are being racist when they say things like that, I'm just saying that using the word "black" shouldn't always be viewed as wrong. That's where Political correctness fails IMO.

Its all down to perception.

[Fodbarmyarmy]

[Frenchay Red]

Fascinating thread, given the context of the so-called racism in a football areana context, where all manner of abuse is dished out verbally. Question is, is it racism in the sense that someone is being descriminated against, or more likely ill-advised descriptive abuse. For example if the player being shouted at was black, welsh, fat and bald, it seems that the majority of opinion would suggest that three of those adjectives applied in front of an (in)appropriate noun would be ok, whereas the pigmentation one would be "racist". This ultra sensistivity over skin colour has come about from PC zealots and over-enthusiastic anti-racism campaigners, who, for all the right reasons, have almost reached saturation point in playing the race card when such minor incidents occur, (and I don't mean folk on this forum who are only trying to do the right thing). I wasn't near such comments so I don't know what was behind them, (i.e. does the person have a real attitude problem with black people, or was it just a descriptive term). All I know is that we are all more sensitive regarding the skin colour than any other "label".

Without doubt there is no excuse for the disgraceful co-ordinated racists chants of some crowds in other countries, Spain and eastern block places come to mind, however I genuinely do not know where we draw the line with one or two individuals in our midst who throw the word black infront of their preferred term of abuse.

[bartolona]

At Norwich a lot of the chants were anti-welsh and about Hartsons wieght problem and i did'nt see anyone run onto the pitch to ask if he was offended. Is this racist?

[Nibor]

[Henry]

This thread started re one comment - I am sure I heard chants of Gypo and where,s your Caravan from the East End - was it City to Southampton or Southampton to City? I don't know but for some the chant of Gypo is equally racially offensive - and as I repeat this thread started re one comment not a "chant" by many - most people do know the cut off point - some idiots don't - as a tangent some stupid guy near me always abuses teams fom the North calling them

Northern "----" - but he bellows this at them with the likes of Bradley , Jamie Mac stood next to them and hearing the same thing - you can't explain the idiocy of this! And even when you point it out he still does it and it does not "count" as racist

I may be wrong here, but since when were gypies a race?

[Nibor]

I may be wrong here, but since were gypies a race?

Since the 1800s in the case of the Romany gypsies.

I don't see why calling the Gas gypsies could be considered racist though, it's just a behavioural thing. They have no fixed abode!

[italian dave]

First of all: Dolly - thank you!! For a practical suggestion and an offer of help on this and another thread. Let's hope that the guy is reported and identified and that the club do take action.

As has been mentioned, it might be a Kick Racism Out day tomorrow (it was at Norwich last week). Those days have become a bit of a token recently - just wheel out the same old banner and take it round the pitch (at Norwich, by a group of entirely white children, to and almost entirely white crowd). How great if our club could do something more meaningful. Like escort this guy across the pitch and eject him from the ground!!

I don't think that some of the comparisons that are made on this thread about other chants/abuse are about racism at all. People who sexually abuse children or sheep probably deserve a bit of abuse and discrimination. So the issue there is about whether its true or not, and if its not true whether calling someone that is objectionable.

There's also a big difference between race (black) and nationality (Welsh). The whole point of what this guy did is that he has abused someone on the basis of their race. Whether its acceptable to do so on the basis of nationality, sexuality, religion or disability is a different issue. And although most of us would probably argue that it isn't right, the nationality one is tricky - especially when it come to an England - Australia rugby match or a Ciy - Cardiff match. I think Nibor is probably right - what makes racism particualrly abhorrent is the history of what racial abuse/discrimination has resulted in.

Sorry, but excusing it as someone getting carried away is just not acceptable. Same reason could excuse almost anything - domestic abuse, murder etc etc.

And excusing it by saying it's a simply descriptive?? When the guy got upset with the ref did he call him a "white b###" - I think not!!

This has been a great thread though.

KICK RACISM OUT. KICK RACISTS OUT.

[Redtilldead]

First of all: Dolly - thank you!! For a practical suggestion and an offer of help on this and another thread. Let's hope that the guy is reported and identified and that the club do take action.

As has been mentioned, it might be a Kick Racism Out day tomorrow (it was at Norwich last week). Those days have become a bit of a token recently - just wheel out the same old banner and take it round the pitch (at Norwich, by a group of entirely white children, to and almost entirely white crowd). How great if our club could do something more meaningful. Like escort this guy across the pitch and eject him from the ground!!

I don't think that some of the comparisons that are made on this thread about other chants/abuse are about racism at all. People who sexually abuse children or sheep probably deserve a bit of abuse and discrimination. So the issue there is about whether its true or not, and if its not true whether calling someone that is objectionable.

There's also a big difference between race (black) and nationality (Welsh). The whole point of what this guy did is that he has abused someone on the basis of their race. Whether its acceptable to do so on the basis of nationality, sexuality, religion or disability is a different issue. And although most of us would probably argue that it isn't right, the nationality one is tricky - especially when it come to an England - Australia rugby match or a Ciy - Cardiff match. I think Nibor is probably right - what makes racism particualrly abhorrent is the history of what racial abuse/discrimination has resulted in.

Sorry, but excusing it as someone getting carried away is just not acceptable. Same reason could excuse almost anything - domestic abuse, murder etc etc.

And excusing it by saying it's a simply descriptive?? When the guy got upset with the ref did he call him a "white b###" - I think not!!

This has been a great thread though.

KICK RACISM OUT. KICK RACISTS OUT.

Hi Dave, could you eplain to me mate what you meant by part of your statement (which I have made larger) ,

this is a polite request, just wanted to know what you actually meant before I made a reply.

[italian dave]

What I meant is that there's a difference between abusing someone because of their race and abusing someone because of something they have done.

Don't get me wrong - I think that the abuse jamie c gets is totally out of order too. But only because he isn't what the chants are accusing him of being. If he was then I don't imagine too many people would have a problem with him getting abuse.

[Redtilldead]

What I meant is that there's a difference between abusing someone because of their race and abusing someone because of something they have done.

Don't get me wrong - I think that the abuse jamie c gets is totally out of order too. But only because he isn't what the chants are accusing him of being. If he was then I don't imagine too many people would have a problem with him getting abuse.

Yeah thanks for that Dave, I hate that word being said to somone who is completely innocent of that henious crime, that's why I felt I had to say something on that matter, people were straight onto ' find out who he is and report him' with the racism abuse, but you can bet half of these people are shouting abuse to Cureton knowing full well it was totally untrue, and it was annoying me with the hypocrism, but yeah I agree with you.

[dezgimed]

First of all: Dolly - thank you!! For a practical suggestion and an offer of help on this and another thread. Let's hope that the guy is reported and identified and that the club do take action.

As has been mentioned, it might be a Kick Racism Out day tomorrow (it was at Norwich last week). Those days have become a bit of a token recently - just wheel out the same old banner and take it round the pitch (at Norwich, by a group of entirely white children, to and almost entirely white crowd). How great if our club could do something more meaningful. Like escort this guy across the pitch and eject him from the ground!!

I don't think that some of the comparisons that are made on this thread about other chants/abuse are about racism at all. People who sexually abuse children or sheep probably deserve a bit of abuse and discrimination. So the issue there is about whether its true or not, and if its not true whether calling someone that is objectionable.

There's also a big difference between race (black) and nationality (Welsh). The whole point of what this guy did is that he has abused someone on the basis of their race. Whether its acceptable to do so on the basis of nationality, sexuality, religion or disability is a different issue. And although most of us would probably argue that it isn't right, the nationality one is tricky - especially when it come to an England - Australia rugby match or a Ciy - Cardiff match. I think Nibor is probably right - what makes racism particualrly abhorrent is the history of what racial abuse/discrimination has resulted in.

Sorry, but excusing it as someone getting carried away is just not acceptable. Same reason could excuse almost anything - domestic abuse, murder etc etc.

And excusing it by saying it's a simply descriptive?? When the guy got upset with the ref did he call him a "white b###" - I think not!!

This has been a great thread though.

KICK RACISM OUT. KICK RACISTS OUT.

Mama Mia!

[Wurzel_Bill]

Since the 1800s in the case of the Romany gypsies.

I don't see why calling the Gas gypsies could be considered racist though, it's just a behavioural thing. They have no fixed abode!

Calling the Gas gypsies is insulting to gypsies.

[freezer]

The Gas are Pikeys not Gypsies.

And who's standing up for the sheep , perhaps they don't want it inferred that some Welsh might ###### them.

Sheepism at it's worst. :noexpression:

[Markman]

I may be wrong here, but since when were gypies a race?

The other aspect to this is that a lot of the new Baltic (old Eastern Block) countries get referred to as Gypsies - and many of them consider that racist (Southampton have a few players from those areas I think) - by the same token many of those same countries we have seen have sizable pockets of football supporters who go in for the other more recognisable Racist Chanting

It is like other posters have said we all disapprove of racism - the scale, type, situation those present, the realtionships between those present can mean that somethings we deem unacceptable can be said without malice or offence taken - it is the numbskulls who use racisit chants to abuse, undermine and belittle beacsue they think they are superior to others beacause of skin colour, birth etc that are the morons we need to get rid of