Barrs Court Red Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Have can something written by somebody who lived in a society that was barely passed being agrarian be relevant in modern society? The whole concept of "produce what you can" failed in communist Russia, as there is no motivation to improve oneself or quality control for starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 A must read for this thread: Kropotkin and his Theory of "Mutual Aid" by Moya K. Mason - a quite brilliant article. I'm not sure how many have read fka dagest's article that he gave the link to, but it really is well worth reading - the link is below..........http://www.moyak.com/researcher/resume/papers/kropotkin.htmlThose wonderful co-operative guilds and communities he talks of have big business and government at the end of them as a natural progression. The human condition will always win out, his theories ignore that very obvious truth and that's why the idyllic scientific and technological utopia he dreams of hasn't just materialised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhistleHappy Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Not wishing to scrounge but ...-Click My Sig -... cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tafkar Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Ive said for a long time that it's about time we cut off benefits for the work shy. I don't see why we should subsidise a lazey llifestyle for those who aren't willing to work.Who says that everyone who's unemployed hasn't tried to get a job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 have finally come up with a policy I could agree with.Absolutely spot on, no more money for those who can't be arsed to even try to work, kill off the something for nothing culture.Reassess everyone on incapacity benefit properly - 500k people under 35 too ill to work long term is clearly not right.I really am not a Tory but the country needs something like this, too many people are taking the piss and that means they're taking resources away from those who are truly ill or in hardship and need the support.Back to topic, I actually agree with the Lib Dem work and pensions spokesman Danny Alexander in the link you gave above. He said the Tory proposals were "hollow rhetoric designed to sound tough rather than helping people back to work".The Tories could propose to help organisations such as 'Remploy'. Remploy works closely with Jobcentre Plus, the Learning & Skills Council and many of the UK's top employers including Tesco, TK Maxx and BT to enable disabled people to obtain sustainable employment. Most of the 500,000 people under 35 really could be too ill to work due to alcoholism, drug addiction, depression, physical handicap and mental health problems. It's just typical for an inbred aristocrat such as Tory leader Cameron not to recognize this fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Back to topic, I actually agree with the Lib Dem work and pensions spokesman Danny Alexander in the link you gave above. He said the Tory proposals were "hollow rhetoric designed to sound tough rather than helping people back to work".Limp wristed lefties assume people need "helping back to work" when what some of them really need is kicking back to work.The Tories could propose to help organisations such as 'Remploy'. Remploy works closely with Jobcentre Plus, the Learning & Skills Council and many of the UK's top employers including Tesco, TK Maxx and BT to enable disabled people to obtain sustainable employment.Remploy deals with people who have learning difficulties and places them in suitable work, it's very successful at that. It's completely unequipped to deal with 500k possible scroungers.Most of the 500,000 people under 35 really could be too ill to work due to alcoholism, drug addiction, depression, physical handicap and mental health problems. It's just typical for an inbred aristocrat such as Tory leader Cameron not to recognize this fact.There are not 500k people under the age of 35 who are unfit to work, more than half of those are taking the piss and the geographical distribution makes that obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Who says that everyone who's unemployed hasn't tried to get a job?No one. Support should be there for people who need it through tough times.Are you saying there isn't a dole scrounging culture of not working prevalent in some parts of the country and that there aren't hundreds of thousands of people whose only excuse for not having a job is laziness?They are taking resources that people who need support should be getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 David Cameron - tough on gun crime and gun culture? ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double-trouble Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 have finally come up with a policy I could agree with.Absolutely spot on, no more money for those who can't be arsed to even try to work, kill off the something for nothing culture.Reassess everyone on incapacity benefit properly - 500k people under 35 too ill to work long term is clearly not right.I really am not a Tory but the country needs something like this, too many people are taking the piss and that means they're taking resources away from those who are truly ill or in hardship and need the support.Tories are not always wrong , but they are always wrong at the right moment .Nice that .Violet Bonham Carter 1887 - 1969 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fka dagest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Ever tried to build a house?What? You know Nibor I've always made a point of not debating about things I don't know about. If you really want to debate anarchism than I suggest you at least read up on it a little as your stentorian tones are are rather wide of the mark in my opinion.I'll help you out:Anarchy ArchivesI don't view modern society as a natural progression, which is indicative of our innate characteristics. I believe the modern world is the creation of the powerful who attempt to order the universe according to their own whims. Modern day politics is nothing but fragmented groups each trying to impose their own world view on everyone else. The state is not a natural predestined creation, it is a machine of conformity. When I was born I was absorbed by the machine, I was weighed, measured and registered by the state. I was taken by the state before I was even aware of my own existence. The state (or let us remember the ruling group of humans behind it) then create cultural symbols such as shared histories or flags to ensure our obedience. It' also worth remembering that most states were formed on the ends of bayonets and were not the collective friendships who all held hands because they recognised that state was the way to go. The British Empire and Russian Empire are good examples of what I'm talking about.I'm not sure what criteria you use to determine the well-being of people. What counts in progress? As Goblin says happiness can be measured in different ways. Nibor you seem to assume that the advance of technology and rampant consumerism are commensurate with progress. We live in a society where we measure progress by how long we can keep our old people alive, despite that fact that more and more of them sit like vegetables in nursing homes without the ability to wipe their own arse. Do you really beleive people are happier now than 500 years ago? I think genuine happiness can be found in simple things like producing your own crops. Let's face it most technological gizmos give us a 5 minute thrill before we search for the next one. With regards to the unemployed, well I've been there, I was unemployed for 2 years when I lived in Middlesbrough because there was no work or rather no work, which left you with some dignity intact. I recall seeing a job frying fish for 45 hours a week for £1.50 an hour. I realise things have improved marginally, although in my opinion the minimum wage merely legitimizes poor wages. However, how many of you have ever been out of work? Do you appreciate there are underlying psychological problems associated with it? It may not always be sheer laziness.Moomin and Nibor you may not like the class perspective and that entirely suits the people who run the country because your busy venting your spleen about the people at the bottom of the pyramid. However, you would be naive to dismiss as an anachronism. For example, the system of honours in this country is still based upon your position in society. Do you know who is in Cameron's Shadow Cabinet? - check out what schools they went to.And lastly, you utter bastards, you've made me write an essay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 And lastly, you utter bastards, you've made me write an essay.And....an excellent essay at that !!!!!! I was heavily influenced by my Grandfather's thinking - he was a generally happy man with no where near the amount of possessions that fill my own house. Am I any happier than him with my greater modern material wealth? Probably not. Was my Grandfather any more content than one of his Bristolian ancestors that may have eagerly set off on a great maritime expedition from Bristol? Maybe not. Long lasting happiness is in your state of mind not in your material wealth.The great medium we do have nowadays, that no other generation has had before, is the computer with its access to cyberspace. Truely a marvel of the modern world that can bring the life experiences and philosophies of those that have gone before back to life in seconds if you trawl the right Internet websites. You can truely stand on the shoulders of giants with the Internet and communicate almost instantly with your fellow City supporters when they're online. Viva La Internet Revolucion !!!!!!.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tafkar Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 No one. Support should be there for people who need it through tough times.Are you saying there isn't a dole scrounging culture of not working prevalent in some parts of the country and that there aren't hundreds of thousands of people whose only excuse for not having a job is laziness?They are taking resources that people who need support should be getting.I'm not saying that, the post I quoted was a rather sweeping statement though. The benefits system may look cushy but it can be ridiculous, not paying out because you're too fit to need it even though companies won't employ you on health grounds. A member of my family had this in the past year and it makes me angry when I hear that everyone on benefits is a scrounger, as was implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 as was implied.Utter tosh. I used to work in the benefits system, I certainly KNOW what's going on and no generalisations were made. Get things in context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Moomin and Nibor you may not like the class perspective and that entirely suits the people who run the country because your busy venting your spleen about the people at the bottom of the pyramid. However, you would be naive to dismiss as an anachronism. For example, the system of honours in this country is still based upon your position in society. Do you know who is in Cameron's Shadow Cabinet? - check out what schools they went to.While we're busy arguing amongst ourselves the same families of toffs and snobs that exploited our ancestors for about 30 generations since 1066 are still busy exploiting us for our labour and our taxes. The toffs love it when we blame each other, immigrants and the unemployed for our perceived problems as it takes the spot light from them. I'm currently at the bottom of the Capitalist Class pyramid propping up the Tory toff/snob scroungers....but soon I'll be following the chap with the Red Flag out from under that pyramid and the pyramid will collapse killing the toff/snob state scroungers above .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Like I've aid before Gobbers - That "Pyramid of Capitalist System" is no different to the hierarchy in Soviet Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Like I've aid before Gobbers - That "Pyramid of Capitalist System" is no different to the hierarchy in Soviet Russia.I'm not sure what you mean, there certainly was no priest hierarchy or King allowed in Soviet Russia. :noexpression: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reliant_robin Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Ive said for a long time that it's about time we cut off benefits for the work shy. I don't see why we should subsidise a lazey llifestyle for those who aren't willing to work.does that include prince edward..or is he a special case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I'm not sure what you mean, there certainly was no priest hierarchy or King allowed in Soviet Russia. :noexpression: Really? Replace the King with the chairman , and the church with the Politburo and it aint far off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Really? Replace the King with the chairman , and the church with the Politburo and it aint far off!Replace the King with Margaret Thatcher and the church with the Tory Party gobshite leadership and you have the nightmare that was Britain in the 1980's. As is the title of this thread 'Evil Tories'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Nothing like ducking an issue is there Gobbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 does that include prince edward..or is he a special case?Moomin didn't answer you. My view is that Prince Edward, as the son of the leader of a foreign ruling class, should have all his state benefits taken away. Why should we have to subsidize the luxurious lifestyles of yet another generation of inbred Toffs? :noexpression: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted January 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Moomin didn't answer you. My view is that Prince Edward, as the son of the leader of a foreign ruling class, should have all his state benefits taken away. Why should we have to subsidize the luxurious lifestyles of yet another generation of inbred Toffs? :noexpression:You should have a bit more respect for the Earl of Wessex!Oh and dagest, I'll reply when I get more than 10 minutes spare... bloody essays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fka dagest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 You should have a bit more respect for the Earl of Wessex!Oh and dagest, I'll reply when I get more than 10 minutes spare... bloody essays.It's quite unnecessary old chap, I really am very reluctant to be dragged into huge, drawn out debate, which consumes all the time I'm not labouring away maintaining the status quo.I think it's much easier for both of us if you simply admit I'm right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 It's quite unnecessary old chap, I really am very reluctant to be dragged into huge, drawn out debate, which consumes all the time I'm not labouring away maintaining the status quo.I think it's much easier for both of us if you simply admit I'm right.Go on, get dragged in - it's great fun. This is a democratic debate on an open forum, the fun is in the argument and counter-argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 It's quite unnecessary old chap, I really am very reluctant to be dragged into huge, drawn out debate, which consumes all the time I'm not labouring away maintaining the status quo.I think it's much easier for both of us if you simply admit I'm right.Come on Dagest! This is an interesting thread and your posts are a joy to read (I mean that, I may disagree with your view but that doesnt matter) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fka dagest Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Come on Dagest! This is an interesting thread and your posts are a joy to read (I mean that, I may disagree with your view but that doesnt matter)Aww, you're too kind. Although you could be playing your way into a special invitation to the anarchist commune, called by universal assent, "Love Island", where for some reason all the top young hot chicks insist on performing their daily tasks in the nude. So, far the only other invitees I have in mind are Gobbo and wtfigo!The only danger we face is nibor and his blackshirts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Aww, you're too kind. Although you could be playing your way into a special invitation to the anarchist commune, called by universal assent, "Love Island", where for some reason all the top young hot chicks insist on performing their daily tasks in the nude. So, far the only other invitees I have in mind are Gobbo and wtfigo!The only danger we face is nibor and his blackshirts. Some of the Police and their Policing methods we see at football matches represent the 'blackshirt' danger we face. nibor is not a 'blackshirt' but a football supporter voicing concerns on a football internet forum. We're learning from each other from this debate and will be better equipped to deal with counter-arguments presented to us outside cyberspace.Viva La Internet Revolucion !!!!!!....bringing the great man and his deeds back to life - adoring women, a Norton motorcycle, a rifle, a cigar and a political agenda to aid your fellow men.....this is what I aspire to after reading about his exploits.... ...Che Guevara.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 I really am not a Tory but the country needs something like this, too many people are taking the piss and that means they're taking resources away from those who are truly ill or in hardship and need the support.I suggest you watch the fantastic video in the link below .....http://www.friction.tv/debate.php?debateno=1228 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 David Cameron - tough on gun crime and gun culture? ...Nice Photoshop jobby there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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