The Eu

[Mr Mosquito]

Shame all the USSR did was write wise words Gobbers then do the opposite, you must've read Animal Farm by the highly perceptive Mr Orwell, " All are equal, but some are more equal than others"

The USSR defeated the might of the mechanized barbarians of NAZI Germany that was sent by Herr Adolf Hitler to destroy them. Be thankful the USSR prevailed for if they had failed our Grandparent's generation would have been next on Adolf's dinner plate.

[fka dagest]

The former USSR and the USA are often mocked and pilloried but who but a tyrant would argue with these declarations?.....

DECLARATION OF RIGHTS OF THE LABORING AND EXPLOITED PEOPLE....

CHAPTER ONE

1. Russia is declared to be a republic of the Soviets of Workers', Soldiers', and Peasants' Deputies. All the central and local power belongs to these soviets.

2. The Russian Soviet Republic is organized on the basis of a free union of free nations, as a federation of soviet national republics.

&

Written in 1787, ratified in 1788, and in operation since 1789, the United States Constitution is the world's longest surviving written charter of government. Its first three words "We The People" affirm that the government of the United States exists to serve its citizens.

Of course documents written with the best of intentions are always abused. It's the case with virtually any one I can think of, for example The Bible, The Koran, The US constitution etc.

If the govt exists to serve its citizens, then why has it sent off lots of young men and women to die in remote countries to serve the needs of the US oil magnates? Why do 37 million US children live in poverty? The answer is that govts serve the interests of the small minorities who have created them.

[bucksred]

Of course documents written with the best of intentions are always abused. It's the case with virtually any one I can think of, for example The Bible, The Koran, The US constitution etc.

If the govt exists to serve its citizens, then why has it sent off lots of young men and women to die in remote countries to serve the needs of the US oil magnates? Why do 37 million US children live in poverty? The answer is that govts serve the interests of the small minorities who have created them.

As human beings have always lived. a leader leads, wether rightly or wrongly, and his people/clan/tribe/country follows. everything is bigger, and not nessescarily better, but its in the human dna. There have always been poor people, there always will be. there have always been good and bad leaders, there always will be. there are warriors, and poets, farmers and politicians, whores and doctors, there have always been, and there will always be. there are heroes and zeroes, there have always been there will always be. There are the hunters, and the hunted, there always have been, there always will be.It is the human race. The names change, and the dates, but there always have been, there will always be.

One mans hero, is another mans guerilla, one mans freedom fighter, another mans terrorist.

[Mr Mosquito]

As human beings have always lived. a leader leads, wether rightly or wrongly, and his people/clan/tribe/country follows. everything is bigger, and not nessescarily better, but its in the human dna. There have always been poor people, there always will be. there have always been good and bad leaders, there always will be. there are warriors, and poets, farmers and politicians, whores and doctors, there have always been, and there will always be. there are heroes and zeroes, there have always been there will always be. There are the hunters, and the hunted, there always have been, there always will be.It is the human race. The names change, and the dates, but there always have been, there will always be.

One mans hero, is another mans guerilla, one mans freedom fighter, another mans terrorist.

That's incredibly high level philosophy bucksred.

The point I was trying to make to fka dagest is that in the USSR and USA you can be an ordinary bod from an ordinary family and make it as leader of your country. That hasn't happened since Oliver Cromwell - 350 years ago - in this country because our Government is dominated by Royalist inbreds who would never allow a non Royal(ist) as head of state.

Back to topic - the EU sucks.

[fka dagest]

As human beings have always lived. a leader leads, wether rightly or wrongly, and his people/clan/tribe/country follows. everything is bigger, and not nessescarily better, but its in the human dna. There have always been poor people, there always will be. there have always been good and bad leaders, there always will be. there are warriors, and poets, farmers and politicians, whores and doctors, there have always been, and there will always be. there are heroes and zeroes, there have always been there will always be. There are the hunters, and the hunted, there always have been, there always will be.It is the human race. The names change, and the dates, but there always have been, there will always be.

One mans hero, is another mans guerilla, one mans freedom fighter, another mans terrorist.

I understand what your saying Bucks and it's a valid perspective. The problem I have with it is that as a paradigm it will lead to suffocating conservatism. If we accept your philosophy than we might as well stop living and accept the human race as hopelessly lost. However, things do not always stay the same and we do evolve (or change at least). At one time cannibalism was viewed as natural, so was human sacrifice, republics came along and went and came back again, men allowed women to vote - unthinkable! I don't think that particular behaviours are written into DNA code as a complete rule and I harbour the hope that some of today's iniquities will some day be viewed from the future as relics of the past.

[fka dagest]

That's incredibly high level philosophy bucksred.

The point I was trying to make to fka dagest is that in the USSR and USA you can be an ordinary bod from an ordinary family and make it as leader of your country. That hasn't happened since Oliver Cromwell - 350 years ago - in this country because our Government is dominated by Royalist inbreds who would never allow a non Royal(ist) as head of state.

Back to topic - the EU sucks.

I think that may have been true of the US once Gobbers, but it hardly seems typical of the pattern for the last 100 years. US politics is virtually dependent on how many greenbacks you have, hence the evolution of patrician clans.

With regard to the USSR, under Uncle Jo you were just as likely to be shot as you were to climb the govt apparatus.

Incidentally I wouldn't describe Cromwell as an ordinary bod form an ordinary family.

[Mr Mosquito]

The problem I have with it is that as a paradigm it will lead to suffocating conservatism.

It's a paradigm that many past great writers have tried to tackle - most noteably Aldous Huxley (Brave New World), George Orwell (1984 and Animal Farm) and even HG Wells (Time machine).

On October 21, 1949 Aldous Huxley wrote to George Orwell, author of 1984, congratulating Orwell on "how fine and how profoundly important the book is". His letter to Orwell contained the prediction that: "Within the next generation I believe that the world's leaders will discover that infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis are more efficient, as instruments of government, than clubs and prisons, and that the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience".

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldous_Huxley

The EU still sucks - bigtime.

[Mr Mosquito]

Incidentally I wouldn't describe Cromwell as an ordinary bod form an ordinary family.

Oliver Cromwell was not a Royal and he most definately was not a Royalist. All leaders of this country for the past 1,000 years apart from Cromwell and his son have been Royals in that respect Cromwell was ordinary i.e. non Royal. Also, Cromwell was poverty stricken and almost a broken man before inheriting money from an uncle. Interesting also to note that Cromwell suffered severe depression and it was a Puritan Minister that gave him belief to straighten his mind and give him purpose. You could say he may have been programmed - but that's for more religious people than I to debate.

[Nibor]

I'd be more in favour of joining the Russian federation for cheap oil and gas that we need for our economy - as I've already mentioned. Why can't we trade freely with the world as we used to pre-1973? Why do we have to feather the nests of overpaid lying politicians with big fat plutocrat jobs in the EU? Stuff the EU - it's bollux and I want a referendum on coming out of this EU shite.

Let's have a referendum on EU membership - let the people decide.

We can trade freely, but if we're not in the EU then EU countries will tend to buy from other people who are.

A referendum is a bloody stupid idea, the vast majority of people will just vote the way Murdoch tells them to.

We have gained far more from EU membership than it has cost us, a brief look at the VOLUME of trade we do in Europe will tell anyone that.

which European countries would that be then Nibor? If their politicians are anything to go by, not much in common with them at all. Personally I'd say stuff the EU in particular, and the US, stick with Auz NZ and Canada. There is common ground with them.

I am not talking about politicians or governments I am talking about everyday people. We have much more in common with other European people (particularly those from non latin nations) than we do yanks. I'd agree that we have a lot in common with the Aussies and Kiwis too.

I just think that language aside, your average yank is pretty alien to us culturally and in particular in their outlook on the world. As a people they are in general far more conservative, ignorant and aggressive.

The "American Dream" is in most respects just as much a dream in that country as it is in any other free country. It's just that the barriers are less obvious.

[Mr Mosquito]

A referendum is a bloody stupid idea, the vast majority of people will just vote the way Murdoch tells them to.

The politicians employed by the EU are shite scared of losing their jobs should our people vote against EU membership. I paid £1.16 per litre to fill my car with diesel yesterday, a high proportion of the tax on that £1.16 per litre diesel is tax to fund our EU membership. If we came out of the EU then Denmark and Holland would soon follow, we could trade with them and the rest of the world without paying £billions in EU membership fees and regain control of our borders as well - our cities are too crowded as it is.

Every politician and corrupt government official that's ever taken bribes from the EU should be investigated and face long prison sentences as well. Prison overcrowding should not be used as an excuse not to imprison them as we could do a good deal with the Russians - once we're out of the EU - to imprison them in Russian Gulags. Have that one Thatcher, Brown, Blair and Co. - you'll be spending the rest of your lives in the Gulags to learn the meaning of 'real work'.

[Eddie Hitler]

We can trade freely, but if we're not in the EU then EU countries will tend to buy from other people who are.

In your opinion. My experience is that people buy on perception and price, not country of origin. A lot of products don't even state that these days. They will just say produced for and note the head office of the buying company.

The EU made a lot of sense when it was set up, and did a great service in dismantling the barriers to trade In Europe by introducing standard products legislation.

It however mostly finished that fifteen years ago and since then has been pursuing the widely unpopular socially-engineered superstate idea that most British people resent, and will vote against if given a chance.

It's a cliche but it's true:

Love Europe - Hate the EU

[Nibor]

The politicians employed by the EU are shite scared of losing their jobs should our people vote against EU membership. I paid £1.16 per litre to fill my car with diesel yesterday, a high proportion of the tax on that £1.16 per litre diesel is tax to fund our EU membership. If we came out of the EU then Denmark and Holland would soon follow, we could trade with them and the rest of the world without paying £billions in EU membership fees and regain control of our borders as well - our cities are too crowded as it is.

Every politician and corrupt government official that's ever taken bribes from the EU should be investigated and face long prison sentences as well. Prison overcrowding should not be used as an excuse not to imprison them as we could do a good deal with the Russians - once we're out of the EU - to imprison them in Russian Gulags. Have that one Thatcher, Brown, Blair and Co. - you'll be spending the rest of your lives in the Gulags to learn the meaning of 'real work'.

You really are in cloud cuckoo land.

You're making assumptions on top of make believe figures and sprinkling a little boring hyperbole over it.

In your opinion. My experience is that people buy on perception and price, not country of origin. A lot of products don't even state that these days. They will just say produced for and note the head office of the buying company.

I'm not suggesting that people will buy goods and services on country of origin noticeably.

It's simply that being in the EU has a massive effect on price due to taxes and duties, and we'd benefit even more in that respect from being in the monetary union.

If you're not in either, you are at a disadvantage price wise when you try to sell into countries that are against competitors that are.

The EU made a lot of sense when it was set up, and did a great service in dismantling the barriers to trade In Europe by introducing standard products legislation.

It however mostly finished that fifteen years ago and since then has been pursuing the widely unpopular socially-engineered superstate idea that most British people resent, and will vote against if given a chance.

I don't agree that it has been pursuing this imaginary superstate. Why do you think that?

From what I've seen of EU laws they are designed to guarantee fair minimums not mandate law to countries. Our laws were largely in accordance anyway.

I think the EU has it's faults. It is certainly a big bureaucracy and it needs slimming down and re organising to be more efficient and cheaper much like any large organisation that has grown somewhat unchecked.

I'm certain that overall it has had a positive effect on the UK and will continue to do so, not least in keeping the current government's big brother style designs on our liberty at bay.

The scariest thing is that there are plenty of muppets who will believe blatantly incorrect propaganda like that which RG is spouting because they think it sounds more patriotic.

[bucksred]

I am not talking about politicians or governments I am talking about everyday people. We have much more in common with other European people (particularly those from non latin nations) than we do yanks. I'd agree that we have a lot in common with the Aussies and Kiwis too.

I just think that language aside, your average yank is pretty alien to us culturally and in particular in their outlook on the world. As a people they are in general far more conservative, ignorant and aggressive.

The "American Dream" is in most respects just as much a dream in that country as it is in any other free country. It's just that the barriers are less obvious.

Really? Many many Europeans in Italy, Germany, France, & Spain are very hostile towards us, and as for more in common with them. I really don't think so. There may well be Anglophiles in the various states but more in common I think so. We have more in common wi Yanks, albeit they cant speak proper English.

[Mr Mosquito]

[bucksred]

[Nibor]

It's not a cloud cuckoo land idea to ask for the referendum on the EU that we were promised by our politicians. Let the people decide - what's wrong with that?

The referendum promised was on an EU constitution which has been scrapped. Giving a vote on a complex issue like this to "the people" will effectively be handing the decision to Murdoch.

Why do you keep copy and pasting propaganda from that website? It's very clearly a pack of lies and it undermines whatever faint glimmer of a point you might have.

[Nibor]

Really? Many many Europeans in Italy, Germany, France, & Spain are very hostile towards us

That's not been my experience at all, not even slightly, and I've spent more time in those countries than I can count.

, and as for more in common with them. I really don't think so. There may well be Anglophiles in the various states but more in common I think so. We have more in common wi Yanks, albeit they cant speak proper English.

Why do we have more in common with them? They don't even understand British humour. Most Europeans I've met do.

[Eddie Hitler]

I suppose I view the EU like I view Margaret Thatcher.

Absolutely vital when they started, did some great things. But having finished those they didn't know when to stop and went on to do a load of rubbish that nobody wanted in order to justify their positions.

Good things (early):

EU - took down protectionist barriers to trade, got European nations co-operating

Maggie - broke the power of the unions that were dragging us into an East German hell-hole, made us the financial centre of Europe

Bad things (later):

EU - Human Rights act, diversion of central funds to perceived "poorer" countries, untrammelled expansion

Maggie - Poll Tax, Water Privatisation

[Barrs Court Red]

The referendum promised was on an EU constitution which has been scrapped. Giving a vote on a complex issue like this to "the people" will effectively be handing the decision to Murdoch.

I'm sorry, but that view really pisses me off. I've seen it come from several leftys (don't include you in that) while making the point that any votes on the EU are to high brow for the general public to properly understand the issue. The fact is the majority see our EU membership as a bad thing, and no matter how you dress it up this is unlikely to change for the forseebale future.

[Mr Mosquito]

Why do you keep copy and pasting propaganda from that website? It's very clearly a pack of lies and it undermines whatever faint glimmer of a point you might have.

It's a fantastic website guaranteed to cause distress and worry amongst our corrupt and overpaid EU loving politicians.

I'm certainly extremely interested in the allegations that our corrupt politicians have been taking bribes from the EU and this should definately be investigated and all politicians involved punished as we would be for such corruption.

A brilliant anti EU website nonetheless, whatever your views ............

http://www.eutruth.org.uk/

[Nibor]

I'm sorry, but that view really pisses me off. I've seen it come from several leftys (don't include you in that) while making the point that any votes on the EU are to high brow for the general public to properly understand the issue. The fact is the majority see our EU membership as a bad thing, and no matter how you dress it up this is unlikely to change for the forseebale future.

The thing is that public opinion on this issue just isn't informed. It's not that people can't understand the issue it's that the majority think they already do and that they issue is "do you want to hand our sovereignty over to Brussells?" when it's not. That's what the Tories like Red Goblin and the tabloid press feed them. I don't like it any more than you do but it's true.

A brilliant anti EU website nonetheless, whatever your views ............

It's a pack of very obvious lies written by a nutcase, and as such it just shows the weakness of the anti-EU argument. It doesn't provide any sort of evidence for any of it's "facts" at all. That's because there is none and they are wrong.

[Mr Mosquito]

[bucksred]

That's not been my experience at all, not even slightly, and I've spent more time in those countries than I can count.

Why do we have more in common with them? They don't even understand British humour. Most Europeans I've met do.

We'll have to agree to disagree there Nibor. the only Europeans who "get" our humour are the Dutch, but speaking English from the age of 5, and having extensive coverage of our TV and Radio does give them an advantage. Few Germans, or French unless Anglophile actually like us, or get our humour. and having lived in Riech, and travelled through Holland, Belgium (what a s hithole), France and Denmark, as well, I aint met too many pro British people, other than those who remember WW2, and they are a dwindling band, as they die off.

Some poxy German students call British troops baby killers etc etc. wonder where they get that idea from? I love the casual "rosbifs" insults among others the lovely French hand out. I have heard insults in Portugese, Spanish and Italian as well. Obviously assuming that no Brits speak any foreign languages..

Most Yanks do, on the other hand, like us, and our system. they don't get our humour, but they love the Brits, and cant do enough for us. Unlike Europeans, who unless, Anglophiles, couldn't give a toss.

and your wrong about giving us a vote. I have a real problem with being patronised by the "elected representitives" telling me something is too complicated.

I resent giving my hard earned money as taxes to subsidise corrupt European politicians, farmers, corporations etc etc, and actually to see certain European States dealing with, or helping states/regimes/systems hostile or unfriendly to our interests as a country. Basically I'm p issed off with hearing about the European Union "dream" of unity, while Germany, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Greece cannot or will not pull their weight in NATO (While ceaselessly lecturing us on bi polar worlds and all that other pony), let alone the EU. Basically I don't want to have that gutless group of nations telling my country what the hell to do, when they do EVERYTHING to avoid doing anything at all. These people appeased before, it failed and still they don.t learn.

If thats the EU, then, brother, to quote some German lefty radical back in the 60's "Ohne mir nicht" Not for me.

We deserve, we need, and we should have a referendum on the European dream, or nightmare depending on your point of view. Lets get the issue, discussed, debated, and voted on, and put to bed one way or other. I didn't vote for this Euro shambles, and most other people didn't either.

A referendum, if you please. I'll accept the verdict, but only when we've all had a chance to vote.

[Mr Mosquito]

We'll have to agree to disagree there Nibor. the only Europeans who "get" our humour are the Dutch, but speaking English from the age of 5, and having extensive coverage of our TV and Radio does give them an advantage. Few Germans, or French unless Anglophile actually like us, or get our humour. and having lived in Riech, and travelled through Holland, Belgium (what a s hithole), France and Denmark, as well, I aint met too many pro British people, other than those who remember WW2, and they are a dwindling band, as they die off.

Some poxy German students call British troops baby killers etc etc. wonder where they get that idea from? I love the casual "rosbifs" insults among others the lovely French hand out. I have heard insults in Portugese, Spanish and Italian as well. Obviously assuming that no Brits speak any foreign languages..

Most Yanks do, on the other hand, like us, and our system. they don't get our humour, but they love the Brits, and cant do enough for us. Unlike Europeans, who unless, Anglophiles, couldn't give a toss.

and your wrong about giving us a vote. I have a real problem with being patronised by the "elected representitives" telling me something is too complicated.

I resent giving my hard earned money as taxes to subsidise corrupt European politicians, farmers, corporations etc etc, and actually to see certain European States dealing with, or helping states/regimes/systems hostile or unfriendly to our interests as a country. Basically I'm p issed off with hearing about the European Union "dream" of unity, while Germany, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Greece cannot or will not pull their weight in NATO (While ceaselessly lecturing us on bi polar worlds and all that other pony), let alone the EU. Basically I don't want to have that gutless group of nations telling my country what the hell to do, when they do EVERYTHING to avoid doing anything at all. These people appeased before, it failed and still they don.t learn.

If thats the EU, then, brother, to quote some German lefty radical back in the 60's "Ohne mir nicht" Not for me.

We deserve, we need, and we should have a referendum on the European dream, or nightmare depending on your point of view. Lets get the issue, discussed, debated, and voted on, and put to bed one way or other. I didn't vote for this Euro shambles, and most other people didn't either.

A referendum, if you please. I'll accept the verdict, but only when we've all had a chance to vote.

The Dutch really are a great people - love of football, beer, loose women are high priorities in their culture - and you're right - they do understand our humour and love our football chants and language.

bucksred, I'd just like to add that there's an old family war tale in my family about World War I. The Belgian farmers, apparently, were spreading human excrament near the battlefields to fertilize the soil even while the fighting was going on. Many soldiers were getting terrible infections in their wounds and illness as a result and my Dad's elderly relatives, that fought there, truely detested the Belgians for this. We became involved in WWI because the Germans marched through Belgium !!!! Although the Belgians did hand over their national wealth to us at the beginning of WW2 so the UK would have their money to continue the fight against *unacceptable word* Germany so we've got to give them great credit for that.

[bucksred]

The Dutch really are a great people - love of football, beer, loose women are high priorities in their culture - and you're right - they do understand our humour and love our football chants and language.

bucksred, I'd just like to add that there's an old family war tale in my family about World War I. The Belgian farmers, apparently, were spreading human excrament near the battlefields to fertilize the soil even while the fighting was going on. Many soldiers were getting terrible infections in their wounds and illness as a result and my Dad's elderly relatives, that fought there, truely detested the Belgians for this. We became involved in WWI because the Germans marched through Belgium !!!! Although the Belgians did hand over their national wealth to us at the beginning of WW2 so the UK would have their money to continue the fight against *unacceptable word* Germany so we've got to give them great credit for that.

Amen about the Dutch Gobbers, damn fine allies in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan too. Along with Denmark and Poland.

I remember those lovely Grateful Belgiques refusing to supply us extra ammunition for our small arms in 1982 for a small war down the Falklands. Their sympathies lay with the Argentines. why the hell my Granddad had to suffer on the Somme and Passchandaele for those ungrateful bastards, is a question I still find it difficult to answer

[Mr Mosquito]

The thing is that public opinion on this issue just isn't informed. It's not that people can't understand the issue it's that the majority think they already do and that they issue is "do you want to hand our sovereignty over to Brussells?" when it's not. That's what the Tories like Red Goblin and the tabloid press feed them. I don't like it any more than you do but it's true.

It's a pack of very obvious lies written by a nutcase, and as such it just shows the weakness of the anti-EU argument. It doesn't provide any sort of evidence for any of it's "facts" at all. That's because there is none and they are wrong.

Here's a couple of aces to trump you Nibor, what better reason to hate the EU is there than knowing that Thatcher and Brown-noser love the EU !!!!!!!

Margaret Thatcher sold us down the river to the EU just as Brown-noser is selling us down the river to the Tibet bashing Chinese - traitors the pair of 'em.....

Margaret Thatcher displays her true colours as an EU loving traitor.......