City's bitter romance with the Championship

[shelts]

8 hours ago, Honiton Tony said:

Bristol has a bigger population than Liverpool and they have to Premiership teams  

They have history and a massive affinity with their supporters 

[...]

1 minute ago, shelts said:

They have history and a massive affinity with their supporters 

We have one as much silverware us them recently, TBF.

 

tfj

[Ivorguy]

9 hours ago, Cheesleysmate said:

That was a different era. You cannot compare what happened in the 1960's and 1970's to today. Football is in a different stratosphere these days and this is why we are suffering because we fail to move with the times. 

We also live in a City where we shouldn't have two teams. We need one in the top flight but as long as the opposition exists blocking our attempts to progress and vice versa then we will always be stuck where we are.

 

We shouldn't have two teams you say.

I have heard this nonsense argument for over 70 years. It always resurfaces in times like these.  Utter nonsense of course. One team certainly won't guarantee success. Why ever would it? We have reached the promised land more than once with two teams we could do it again if the club was properly run

[Inactive user]

9 hours ago, reddogkev said:

Why do we struggle in this league?  There must be a clear reason, bigger than the current manager and the board, perhaps even bigger than SL.

For a city our size, why have we never become established in the league?  Even in the play-off year, we punched massively above our weight, and couldn't develop after losing to Hull.  The Championship soon cut us down to size, chewed us up and spat us back into League One.

This season is horrendous, offered so much at the start, and is now the usual struggle against the drop.  I'm sick of it.

It must stop, but how?  Even massive investment in the squad, and the developed stadium is offering little help to the cause of securing a happy relationship with the Championship.

Will we ever buck this trend?

I'm blaming Brexit, Trump and Putin, but not necessarily in that order.

[milo1111]

7 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

I totally agree with what you're saying here. But we are literally 8/10 points off mid-table right now! We had a bad run that was hard to break and haven't lost by more than 1 goal all season, we are pretty close to doing what you suggest and given a tiny bit more luck would be. So why don't we be patient? 

Because a lot of people, me included, think that all thats missing for us to bridge that gap to midtable is a seasoned manager who knows how to set a side up to be more solid and motivate the existing squad a bit more. Not one still learning his trade.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Cheesleysmate said:

And they have had two top flight clubs for decades. They are not starting from the same position.

They also don't mutually hate each other.

Not being pedantic but on google it says liverpool has 200,000 more people than bristol

[Redandy]

11 hours ago, reddogkev said:

Why do we struggle in this league?  There must be a clear reason, bigger than the current manager and the board, perhaps even bigger than SL.

For a city our size, why have we never become established in the league?  Even in the play-off year, we punched massively above our weight, and couldn't develop after losing to Hull.  The Championship soon cut us down to size, chewed us up and spat us back into League One.

This season is horrendous, offered so much at the start, and is now the usual struggle against the drop.  I'm sick of it.

It must stop, but how?  Even massive investment in the squad, and the developed stadium is offering little help to the cause of securing a happy relationship with the Championship.

Will we ever buck this trend?

By picking a Manager that is capable of doing the job. All this soul searching. We have the ground, the squad , a vastly superior scouting system but lack the manager to pull it together. 

[Portland Bill]

10 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

I totally agree with what you're saying here. But we are literally 8/10 points off mid-table right now! We had a bad run that was hard to break and haven't lost by more than 1 goal all season, we are pretty close to doing what you suggest and given a tiny bit more luck would be. So why don't we be patient? 

No team wins just one game in 15 by being unlucky.

Coaching, lack of a game plan ( and being able to change it when needed ) and the shape of the team seem to be the real reasons, luck doesn't come into it.

Also, didn't Brighton beat us 2-0!

[BobBobSuperBob]

10 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

I totally agree with what you're saying here. But we are literally 8/10 points off mid-table right now! We had a bad run that was hard to break and haven't lost by more than 1 goal all season, we are pretty close to doing what you suggest and given a tiny bit more luck would be. So why don't we be patient? 

That particular piece of straw clutching is getting a bit tedious now

[BCFC Rich]

34 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Also, didn't Brighton beat us 2-0!

 

Apologies I forgot about that one. 

[Davefevs]

10 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

I personally think this squad is mostly capable. A few glaring holes to fill but we shouldn't be in our position. So when it comes to the summer, I don't think we need to do a lot. Full backs are a big one for me. You don't have to spend huge money on them though. We should look to our versions of Greg Cunningham and Luke Ayling. Players that can play but somehow have been overlooked. Either that or lower league. One I think we overlooked was Morgan Fox from Charlton went to Sheffield Wednesday for less than 1m or a more extreme example would be Yiadom at Barnsley coming from Barnet I believe. 

As for a striker I'd like to think if we spent big it would be here. Maybe not 7-10m big but 4-5m for sure. Also we've seen with Tammy and Izzy Brown that these loans can be high reward and low risk. It's something we should always look at, IMO. 

Plus I don't want to overlook players like Moore, COD or even Engvall. If any of them make progress similar to Brownhill then we've already got a few gems in there as I think they're all at least equally gifted to Brownhill in their own ways or even better. The club is doing a lot right its just that it getting in the way of results which can end up stopping all progress and making us take a step back.  

With you Joe.  This squad doesn't need an overhaul...but it does need bit of work.  I suspect LJ will think very differently.  Let's assume he's gone by the summer...and we are still in the Champ...not sure which is the most unrealistic.

Here's my squad summary with the above conditions.

Goalkeepers:

Would be happy if our three of Lucic, Fielding and O'Leary competed.  I'm not put off by Daniel Johnson's goal for Preston past Lucic.  Giefer, I suspect will be loan only.  It wouldn't surprise me if Fielding went though, and we bring in someone else.

Right Back; one first team regular required

Little OOC, Matthews, back to Sunderland. Vyner the understudy to Darikwa or McLaughlin

Left Back: one first team regular required

Golbourne not going to be no1 next season.  Bryan, cover for a proper modern day LB.  I like Bidwell at QPR, Malone at Fulham is the best LB in our division, but out of reach. Unless of course Magnüsson can take the role, but I see him as cover for an incoming LB.

Centre Backs:

Flint, Wright, Magnüsson and Moore is a good enough foursome.  Vyner as cover.

Centre Midfield;  if we could get a top player in yes, but we don't need another average CM.

I'm gonna assume Korey is fit by next season, so we'll have Hegeler, Smith, Brownhill and Pack.  O'Neil will be off to Portsmouth who are promoted via playoffs to League One.  Shame - I predicted he would be our best signing!

Right Midfield: one first team regular, probably already here!!

Cotterill end of loan, but suspect he might be back.  For purposes of this Paterson to leave too.  O'Dowda to be cover on his wrong foot.

Left Midfield: 

Bryan and O'Dowda to battle it out

Attacking Midfield:

Reid, who in effect will have to compete with the CMs, apart from games where we might go 4411, or 451.  Tomlin to go to a Derby or Wolves type club.

Forwards; one needed, but the type might depend on the readiness of Engvall.

Djuric, Taylor, Engvall plus one other.

Ultimately I think it will be a quieter summer.

It wouldn't surprise me if Flint or Pack went, so that might mean one or two more additions.

Not forgetting:

J.Smith, D.De Girolamo, S.McCoulsky, G.Dowling

Feel free to disagree.  In another 3bmonths I suspect things will be very different.

[BS4 on Tour...]

15 hours ago, Cheesleysmate said:

And they have had two top flight clubs for decades. They are not starting from the same position.

They also don't mutually hate each other.

Yes they do....I've spent a lot of time up there for various reasons...they really don't like each other

[Ivorguy]

19 hours ago, Cheesleysmate said:

If the city had one club I believe that we would be better positioned to support Premiership football in this city. It's hypothetical but we don't get on as clubs and always look to block each other's attempts to progress...Village Green bollox and Trash Horfield. 

People from outside the city must see us as a bit of a joke. Massive rivalry between two mediocre clubs in a big city.

All this silly hyped up hatred of Rovers is nasty and childish.

How often do some of us have to say take a longer historical view. This hatred is an example of the wider unpleasantness in our society. It won't last forever. It is a generational thing.  Future generations of City fans will, I am sure, be like my generation and be far more balanced and may even like me always wish Rovers well. When we were both doing well in the 50s in old second division the rivalry was fierce and FUN, not like today.

 

 

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

All this silly hyped up hatred of Rovers is nasty and childish.

How often do some of us have to say take a longer historical view. This hatred is an example of the wider unpleasantness in our society. It won't last forever. It is a generational thing.  Future generations of City fans will, I am sure, be like my generation and be far more balanced and may even like me always wish Rovers well. When we were both doing well in the 50s in old second division the rivalry was fierce and FUN, not like today.

 

 

 

Would be nice wouldn't it.  Unfortunately, society seems to be on a worse run than us.

[22A]

Up to the end of the 2015-16 season, City's all time record in Tier 2: P2016 W702 D527 L787 F2657 A2886

Up to the end of the 2014-15 season, City's all time record in Tier 3: P2010 W879 D517 L614 F3199 A2586

These figures suggest City do better in the third rather than the second tier. However having been a City supporter since 1968-69 season, I regard Div 2 / Championship / Tier 2 as City's natural level.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, 22A said:

Up to the end of the 2015-16 season, City's all time record in Tier 2: P2016 W702 D527 L787 F2657 A2886

Up to the end of the 2014-15 season, City's all time record in Tier 3: P2010 W879 D517 L614 F3199 A2586

These figures suggest City do better in the third rather than the second tier. However having been a City supporter since 1968-69 season, I regard Div 2 / Championship / Tier 2 as City's natural level.

@Rocking Red Cyril - now there's a better statistical sample 

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, 22A said:

Up to the end of the 2015-16 season, City's all time record in Tier 2: P2016 W702 D527 L787 F2657 A2886

Up to the end of the 2014-15 season, City's all time record in Tier 3: P2010 W879 D517 L614 F3199 A2586

These figures suggest City do better in the third rather than the second tier. However having been a City supporter since 1968-69 season, I regard Div 2 / Championship / Tier 2 as City's natural level.

That's what I have often believed- the top end of League One, the bottom end of Championship. Somewhere between that seems to our historical average, our historical 'norm' I would say.

[NorthBristolRed]

22 hours ago, reddogkev said:

Why do we struggle in this league?  There must be a clear reason, bigger than the current manager and the board, perhaps even bigger than SL.

For a city our size, why have we never become established in the league?  Even in the play-off year, we punched massively above our weight, and couldn't develop after losing to Hull.  The Championship soon cut us down to size, chewed us up and spat us back into League One.

This season is horrendous, offered so much at the start, and is now the usual struggle against the drop.  I'm sick of it.

It must stop, but how?  Even massive investment in the squad, and the developed stadium is offering little help to the cause of securing a happy relationship with the Championship.

Will we ever buck this trend?

It's a strange thing - we have a large catchment area of support, we now have the stadium and financial backing and we've had the opportunity to progress and advance as a club.  Mis-management?  Yes without a doubt but also is there a psychological element to this?  Smaller clubs with smaller budgets have progressed up into the prem so would suggest it could be a combination of the two maybe?

[Rocking Red Cyril]

19 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@Rocking Red Cyril - now there's a better statistical sample 

Why good old statistics, lies more lies and bullshit a politicians greatest tool. Yes a agree far better sample but I was just trying to make a point with a very specific pool of current data, which to me shows we are doing ok .

[Rocking Red Cyril]

On 16/02/2017 at 11:49, Cheesleysmate said:

That was a different era. You cannot compare what happened in the 1960's and 1970's to today. Football is in a different stratosphere these days and this is why we are suffering because we fail to move with the times. 

We also live in a City where we shouldn't have two teams. We need one in the top flight but as long as the opposition exists blocking our attempts to progress and vice versa then we will always be stuck where we are.

 

Well two teams it is and shall forever stay . Never the two two shall mix

[Kachina II]

Whilst many blame Lee, and his tactics, at no point has this team been torn apart in games and played off the pitch, so how exactly are tactics to blame, our downfall is individual errors and weakness in certain areas.

 

however it's widely known we have a weekly budget of around 250k, this will never get you competitive in this league as it means on a 20 man squad your average wage is 12.5k a week. We have a couple around the 20k mark but it's fortunate that Tammy and Fabian are having parts of their wage paid by their own clubs.

You look at any of the teams at the top Andy it's full of 20-30k a week players, I'm not saying we don't have some promising players but when they progress to upper league standard, either they will be sold to clubs willing to pay the going rate or they will simply run down their contracts here.

Before people talk about Huddersfield, they may have a similar budget to us but their 5 best players are all loans from big clubs and they are paying a fraction of their wages, if they don't go up they will find those players seriously hard to replace.

The only thing that truly gets you out this league is quality, something we won't pay for, we expect to overspend on lumps of coal preying they turn into diamonds in the rough, the odd one will but not all.

 

come the summer we will need a keeper, 2 full backs, a left and right winger and a striker all good enough at this level to progress. There's talk of the lad from Burnley who will be on 20k a week plus, and then Cotterill is prob on 15k a week plus, so to exercise those options will already be 13% of our whole budget used, this is Lansdown, he expects to do everything on the cheap and get lucky, he isn't about to change and give a 400k a week budget which would realistically bring in the types of player needed.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, lancsred said:

Whilst many blame Lee, and his tactics, at no point has this team been torn apart in games and played off the pitch, so how exactly are tactics to blame, our downfall is individual errors and weakness in certain areas.

 

however it's widely known we have a weekly budget of around 250k, this will never get you competitive in this league as it means on a 20 man squad your average wage is 12.5k a week. We have a couple around the 20k mark but it's fortunate that Tammy and Fabian are having parts of their wage paid by their own clubs.

You look at any of the teams at the top Andy it's full of 20-30k a week players, I'm not saying we don't have some promising players but when they progress to upper league standard, either they will be sold to clubs willing to pay the going rate or they will simply run down their contracts here.

Before people talk about Huddersfield, they may have a similar budget to us but their 5 best players are all loans from big clubs and they are paying a fraction of their wages, if they don't go up they will find those players seriously hard to replace.

The only thing that truly gets you out this league is quality, something we won't pay for, we expect to overspend on lumps of coal preying they turn into diamonds in the rough, the odd one will but not all.

 

come the summer we will need a keeper, 2 full backs, a left and right winger and a striker all good enough at this level to progress. There's talk of the lad from Burnley who will be on 20k a week plus, and then Cotterill is prob on 15k a week plus, so to exercise those options will already be 13% of our whole budget used, this is Lansdown, he expects to do everything on the cheap and get lucky, he isn't about to change and give a 400k a week budget which would realistically bring in the types of player needed.

We don't need to pay 20/30 k a week for average Joes .

We need a TEAM of well organised players ,the wages are secondary to the talent .

Let others break their clubs , If we can be clever no reason why we can't advance with the existing policy .

It's just the coaching that needs ' tweaking ' IMHO .

[Kachina II]

13 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

We don't need to pay 20/30 k a week for average Joes .

We need a TEAM of well organised players ,the wages are secondary to the talent .

Let others break their clubs , If we can be clever no reason why we can't advance with the existing policy .

It's just the coaching that needs ' tweaking ' IMHO .

And it's that level of delusion, which is why we are in this position.

Average Joes ? We've a squad full of them !

The problem is we can't be clever, we sign average players on good money, but won't pay decent money (wages) for decent players.

Take Lee Tomlin, on around 20K a week + yet he's absolutely useless, no other club wanted him in the summer and Bournemouth couldn't wait to get rid of him. We push to boat out to sign him, cause of fan pressure. Johnson get's ripped to shreds by the fans for not playing him, when he plays him we play even bloody worse. 

We aren't a big enough attraction for decent players to come here, there is no true expectation of top tier football, and we wont pay wages that those with serious ambition have,

The club is a joke from top to bottom. The real reason Johnson is our manager is no manager in their right mind would want to manage us in the 2nd tier, we financially can't and wont compete and instead of the fans seeing the blinding obvious they force the manager out.

Our best bet is to stick with Johnson for 5-10 years, build a strong academy to generate money and hopefully over time, when the club becomes self funding those funds will be used to bring in quality to give a serious bid to promotion. I don't think we will go down this season, but I don't think we are any better than an 18-20th team in this league, regardless of manager. Will not be top ten in this league any time soon, unless Lansdown finally wakes up and realises to have that sort of ambition you have to match it with the funds that are required to do so.

[CotswoldRed]

On 17/02/2017 at 07:29, Ivorguy said:

All this silly hyped up hatred of Rovers is nasty and childish.

How often do some of us have to say take a longer historical view. This hatred is an example of the wider unpleasantness in our society. It won't last forever. It is a generational thing.  Future generations of City fans will, I am sure, be like my generation and be far more balanced and may even like me always wish Rovers well. When we were both doing well in the 50s in old second division the rivalry was fierce and FUN, not like today.

 

 

 

Future generations more balanced? When is social media ending? 

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 hours ago, lancsred said:

Whilst many blame Lee, and his tactics, at no point has this team been torn apart in games and played off the pitch, so how exactly are tactics to blame, our downfall is individual errors and weakness in certain areas.

 

however it's widely known we have a weekly budget of around 250k, this will never get you competitive in this league as it means on a 20 man squad your average wage is 12.5k a week. We have a couple around the 20k mark but it's fortunate that Tammy and Fabian are having parts of their wage paid by their own clubs.

You look at any of the teams at the top Andy it's full of 20-30k a week players, I'm not saying we don't have some promising players but when they progress to upper league standard, either they will be sold to clubs willing to pay the going rate or they will simply run down their contracts here.

Before people talk about Huddersfield, they may have a similar budget to us but their 5 best players are all loans from big clubs and they are paying a fraction of their wages, if they don't go up they will find those players seriously hard to replace.

The only thing that truly gets you out this league is quality, something we won't pay for, we expect to overspend on lumps of coal preying they turn into diamonds in the rough, the odd one will but not all.

 

come the summer we will need a keeper, 2 full backs, a left and right winger and a striker all good enough at this level to progress. There's talk of the lad from Burnley who will be on 20k a week plus, and then Cotterill is prob on 15k a week plus, so to exercise those options will already be 13% of our whole budget used, this is Lansdown, he expects to do everything on the cheap and get lucky, he isn't about to change and give a 400k a week budget which would realistically bring in the types of player needed.

How about Preston , Barnsley , fractions of our budget

BTW The Huddersfield owner was on Radio during week - explained they've cut 2 million pound from their wage budget in recent years 

When  I see them I see a well drilled, well organised , well motivated side that all know their jobs and play with a real zip

All of which I'd strongly suggest is down to Mr Wagner , the Head Coach

[Son of Fred]

On 16/02/2017 at 11:29, reddogkev said:

Why do we struggle in this league?  There must be a clear reason, bigger than the current manager and the board, perhaps even bigger than SL.

For a city our size, why have we never become established in the league?  Even in the play-off year, we punched massively above our weight, and couldn't develop after losing to Hull.  The Championship soon cut us down to size, chewed us up and spat us back into League One.

This season is horrendous, offered so much at the start, and is now the usual struggle against the drop.  I'm sick of it.

It must stop, but how?  Even massive investment in the squad, and the developed stadium is offering little help to the cause of securing a happy relationship with the Championship.

Will we ever buck this trend?

Employ a proven head coach,its the only reasonable chance-and to continue with that trend..

[reddogkev]

12 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

Employ a proven head coach,its the only reasonable chance-and to continue with that trend..

Are we currently able to attract a proven head coach?

What salary do we offer to our managers?  Does City look an enticing prospect for successful managers?

Personally, I agree with hiring the LJ (Eddie Howe) breed of manager, namely an up and coming coach with a thirst for all aspects of the game and consistently improving.  I sincerely hope we see signs of Lee improving with us and ultimately becoming a proven head coach.

After all, he did indeed prove his worth last season. 

We can all hope for a day when we have courted, engaged, and married the Championship, tied her down to a long-term relationship, and then perhaps begin to desire her attractive neighbour - the Premiership.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, lancsred said:

And it's that level of delusion, which is why we are in this position.

Average Joes ? We've a squad full of them !

The problem is we can't be clever, we sign average players on good money, but won't pay decent money (wages) for decent players.

Take Lee Tomlin, on around 20K a week + yet he's absolutely useless, no other club wanted him in the summer and Bournemouth couldn't wait to get rid of him. We push to boat out to sign him, cause of fan pressure. Johnson get's ripped to shreds by the fans for not playing him, when he plays him we play even bloody worse. 

We aren't a big enough attraction for decent players to come here, there is no true expectation of top tier football, and we wont pay wages that those with serious ambition have,

The club is a joke from top to bottom. The real reason Johnson is our manager is no manager in their right mind would want to manage us in the 2nd tier, we financially can't and wont compete and instead of the fans seeing the blinding obvious they force the manager out.

Our best bet is to stick with Johnson for 5-10 years, build a strong academy to generate money and hopefully over time, when the club becomes self funding those funds will be used to bring in quality to give a serious bid to promotion. I don't think we will go down this season, but I don't think we are any better than an 18-20th team in this league, regardless of manager. Will not be top ten in this league any time soon, unless Lansdown finally wakes up and realises to have that sort of ambition you have to match it with the funds that are required to do so.

[Kachina II]

8 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

WE are all entitled to our own opinions Major, that is what a forum is for.

Personally I feel Lansdown has done more damage than good to this club, creating a level of ambition and expectation which is unlikely to ever be achieved, especially whilst he tries to do everything on the cheap.

That is my opinion, many will disagree, but it is my belief, doesn't make me wrong or right but that is what a forum is for, opinion and debate about different matters relating to the subject, ie in this case Bristol City FC.

[reddogkev]

18 minutes ago, lancsred said:

WE are all entitled to our own opinions Major, that is what a forum is for.

Personally I feel Lansdown has done more damage than good to this club, creating a level of ambition and expectation which is unlikely to ever be achieved, especially whilst he tries to do everything on the cheap.

That is my opinion, many will disagree, but it is my belief, doesn't make me wrong or right but that is what a forum is for, opinion and debate about different matters relating to the subject, ie in this case Bristol City FC.

Indeed you can have your opinion, but if your contention is that SL has hindered the club, rather than helped it, or has caused more damage than good, as you put it, then your opinion is undeniably wrong!!!

And the above, is my opinion on the matter!