Guardian article today on SL and Johnson

[Jack Dawe]

25 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

In the last 23 seasons, our highest finishes have been 4th, 10th, 10th and 15th at this level. Outside of the three year spell under GJ, 18th and 17th last season are some of the highest finishes we've had, the 5th and 6th highest finishes we've had in 23 years. But some continually go on about it being a disaster which is absurd. A disastrous run, absolutely. But a disastrous season, absolutely not. Not a successful season, not an awful one - it was just middle-ground.

 

0 net spend as I'm sure someone will point out how we spent money as always is the case, but they fail to recognise or acknowledge we lost a key player and had we not lost him I'm sure our position would have reflected the money spent as our start to the season seemed to suggest. We brought in reinforcements in January and improved. A finish one place higher than the season before but some people seem to have absurdly high expectations. Hope and wanting to finish higher is fine but expecting us to take the division by storm and comfortably finish top half is just very odd.

Still insisting we "lost" a player, I see.

Are we the only club that "loses" players then? Any other club "losing" players?

And what do you think of the two players we "found" in January to replace the player we "lost" in August?

[Bris Red]

24 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Someone will have to explain to me why the length of the bad run actually matters?  The only statistic that actually counts for anything is where we finished, because that's the only one that has the capacity to relegate or promote us, and that is the only statistic that encompasses all results.

We finished 17th.  In a season when the consensus expectation was a mid-table finish, that represents fairly mild underachievement - not a disaster.

It appears the main argument for sacking Johnson is because we had a long, bad run.  So what?  He did well either side of that, and he did well at the end of last season too.  The 8 run record losing streak is also cited as a reason to sack him.  Why does that matter when the season is 46 games long?  If we'd re-shuffled the results so a few of those defeats came at other times, but the overall set of results was the same, would that make it OK?

If you think Johnson's overall record isn't good enough - or 17th place this season isn't good enough - and that he should be sacked on that basis, fair enough.  But to judge him on any selective period of time makes no sense at all.

 

It was the manner of the defeats though mate. To lose 8 games in a row is worrying, its even more worrying the fact that in Johnson's VERY short managerial career this isnt the first time he has had a horrendous run of defeats which really makes me and others question him going fowards regardless of where we finally finished. 

SL has his time to gloat and subtly give it the 'i told you so' vibe for now but personally i think we will struggle again next season with Johnson at the helm. He just isnt a good manager at this level.

[RT's Vaseline Tub]

Really good article, well written with interesting insight in to both LJ & Uncle Steve.

8th best Manager under 40 in the football world was a remarkable fact I was not aware of...

[Tipps69]

22 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

Your scenario is far more likely, obviously, but we all remember Manchester City being an after thought in the Premiership, and being in Div 3

For the record, I'd rather have a City fan in charge, but I go back to the old arguement. On the pitch we have not improved that much in SL's time in charge. All that money.....

Nice ground though

There is no way of guaranteeing success on the pitch unfortunately, there are many more clubs that have thrown much more money than us over the last 5 years or so who are still waiting for their opportunity for success on the pitch. And for all that money they are still in the same division as us.

And many of these clubs will of had the infrastructure in place years ago, we are now just starting to get our behind the scenes in order, so we are playing catch-up in every facet of the club.

Part of the problem is that the vast majority of people want / expect success now rather than realising that success doesn't just happen overnight but the club is improving, slowly but surely. And with any luck, by the time we achieve success the club will be ready in every way (stadium, training facilities, offices, staffing & potential to maximise our potential income from every avenue).

Look how far we have come in 5 years, then look at how far some other clubs have come, we aren't doing that badly, honestly.

[Rich_s]

6 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Yep a good article. Not sure the little dig by SL at critical fans was needed though ...'they go asleep (sic) when things are going well..'

In fairness I don't necessarily agree with but fully accept the right of fans to come out of the shadows and moan when things are not going well . However, Lansdown does have a point in that there's a minority both online and at the ground who are ready to pounce when results aren't working out. Call that having a dig if you will but it's reality 

[ChippenhamRed]

34 minutes ago, bris red said:

It was the manner of the defeats though mate. To lose 8 games in a row is worrying, its even more worrying the fact that in Johnson's VERY short managerial career this isnt the first time he has had a horrendous run of defeats which really makes me and others question him going fowards regardless of where we finally finished. 

SL has his time to gloat and subtly give it the 'i told you so' vibe for now but personally i think we will struggle again next season with Johnson at the helm. He just isnt a good manager at this level.

So Johnson has had two bad runs of defeats. That counts against him. But he has also followed both runs with two spells of good form. That counts for him. Overall assessment: neutral.

You talk about the manner of the defeats. What does that actually mean? Were we losing 4-0 every week? What about the manner of the victories?

That's my point; you simply have to judge the whole, not any one part of it. Otherwise it is simply biased.

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, JHAGa said:

 

In the last 23 seasons, our highest finishes have been 4th, 10th, 10th and 15th at this level. Outside of the three year spell under GJ, 18th and 17th last season are some of the highest finishes we've had, the 5th and 6th highest finishes we've had in 23 years. But some continually go on about it being a disaster which is absurd. A disastrous run, absolutely. But a disastrous season, absolutely not. Not a successful season, not an awful one - it was just middle-ground.

 

0 net spend as I'm sure someone will point out how we spent money as always is the case, but they fail to recognise or acknowledge we lost a key player and had we not lost him I'm sure our position would have reflected the money spent as our start to the season seemed to suggest. We brought in reinforcements in January and improved. A finish one place higher than the season before but some people seem to have absurdly high expectations. Hope and wanting to finish higher is fine but expecting us to take the division by storm and comfortably finish top half is just very odd.

I agree with a lot of what you say. But you really need to drop the zero net spend thing, when you have a £15m loan player up front it really doesn't help your argument.

[steviestevieneville]

5 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I do think he's had a few 'home truths' put his way over this season , from supporters , players and other advisors

Some of his quotes do give me some hope that he realises he's made some (basic IMHO) errors and will move forward somewhat wiser

Long term , the dire mid season and what happened , the reaction to it ,might actually have opened a few eyes and be beneficial all round long term

Only just picked up on this thread . The over coaching part is massive for me. A few of us noticed it was like he was playing Fifa with the squad at times. When he first came in he said he was going to keep things simple and it worked. He obviously went away from that during the season but mentioned he was going back to basics/ simplifying things after Preston which worked again. Hopefully he'll stick with it.  

[Red Army 75]

Just now, steviestevieneville said:

Only just picked up on this thread . The over coaching part is massive for me. A few of us noticed it was like he was playing Fifa with the squad at times. When he first came in he said he was going to keep things simple and it worked. He obviously went away from that during the season but mentioned he was going back to basics/ simplifying things after Preston which worked again. Hopefully he'll stick with it.  

Ye totally agree. And the more we struggled the more he changed it . But if you admit you have made mistakes. You can only learn from them. Some people can never admit there wrong. 

[JHAGa]

36 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Still insisting we "lost" a player, I see.

Are we the only club that "loses" players then? Any other club "losing" players?

And what do you think of the two players we "found" in January to replace the player we "lost" in August?

 

Err, yes, we did lose a player?

 

No, never claimed otherwise.

 

I said when we brought in January reinforcements we picked up. What planet are you on?

[JHAGa]

9 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I agree with a lot of what you say. But you really need to drop the zero net spend thing, when you have a £15m loan player up front it really doesn't help argument.

 

I get what you mean but the fact is, LJ was backed in the summer and we had a decent squad with two amazing attacking options for this level. If we hadn't have sold Kodjia I'd be in complete agreement with those that say he had a 'war chest', spent loads for this level or however you want to describe it. But we lost Kodjia, along with the money we got for Agard, Williams, Ayling, Albert and Bolasie, LJ simply spent the money we'd recieved, we weren't big spenders. Did the club plan to sell Kodjia all along or were they tempted by the amount Villa offered? Debatable but the fact we were bidding £6.5M for Joe Mason on deadline day suggests we didn't plan to lose him as we weren't prepared to lose Kodjia in terms of the overall squad strength. It wasn't until January that we brought in attacking reinforcements and started to recover. Up until then LJ had been reliant on a very young (albeit very talented) Abraham to carry us going forward and a very committed but lacking the legs ageing striker in Wilbs. When we started struggling teams quickly worked out they could just mark Abraham as he was our only striker. When Djuric/Taylor came in, we started freeing up space for him and thus improved, as he wasn't our only option.

 

We started the season with two top-class Championship forwards and soon only had one. That hits the team hard. Look at the top clubs in the Premier League, full of very good squads, but when you lose a key player (in any position but particularly attack) they tend to struggle as it lessens their options and makes it easier for the opposition. I just think it's false to claim LJ had a war chest. He was fortunate that, unlike some clubs, we could reinvest the money we'd received for outgoing players, but ultimately our net spend was larger the summer before (and what a shambles that's infamously known for being) than it was this season.

 

Anyway, the big focus is this summer now. We need to replace Tammy/Kodjia so it will be interesting to see what happens.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I was one of the people who thought Johnson had to go and it annoys me that we get tarred with the brush of wanting him to fail. I want LJ to succeed, it is evident from your posts that you want LJ to succeed and I think the same is true of pretty much every supporter. We will criticise when things are not working because we want it to go well.

If I am honest, I could maybe name - I won't though - two posters on here who I suspect would rather LJ failed than that they had to acceot they were wrong to oppose his appointment. But it would be literally two posters and certainly the vast majority of people who - like you or I - have called for change this season have done so because it has not appeared to be working and not because we want LJ to fail. For the record, I hope SL is absolutely vindicated next year when LJ storms us to the title with a record points total. But I hope rather than expect.

 

One other thing - not read this whole thread and sorry if this was said already - I had not appreciated until I saw the article that LJ is still the youngest manager in the top two divisions. Based on that, I do accept I could have been more lenient when he has made mistakes. I hope to see next season that he has learned from them...

 

Good post LB

and thanks , someone who actually reads posts , and who gets me

[steviestevieneville]

7 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

"... [Lansdown] genuinely believes that some fans would like to see him fail. Asked why that would be the case, Lansdown replies: “Maybe because we’ve broken some of their traditions, or they haven’t got the bar they used to drink in, or whatever it may be – people don’t like change. A lot of people in football want to go back to the good old days – or bad old days."

Haha - he definitely reads OTIB. 

@Ivorguy 

[NickJ]

2 hours ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

And in the last 19 games, our record was 7W 6D 6L this spans back to January 31st SO stats are easy to manipulate...

I don't understand why anybody would want to manipulate stats.

The fact is that we finished 3 points away from relegation.

It is also a fact that we spent more than all bar 6 or 7 teams, considerably more than the majority of the teams around us. 

Nobody needs to manipulate stats to justifiably conclude that it was a very poor return.

 

 

[Natchfever]

2 hours ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

And in the last 19 games, our record was 7W 6D 6L this spans back to January 31st SO stats are easy to manipulate...

No access to a table so happy to stand corrected but did we not miss relegation by 3 points with it in the balance pre Brighton ?

That being over 46 matches frankly the only stat that matters and what proper managers usually ask to be judged on.

They both sound rather pleased with themselves which frankly grates with me.

[The Nest Egg]

6 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Whatever you think of the content, isn't it nice to see that there is still some proper journalism in the press? 

Why have proper journalism when you can have Gregor McGregor making an article almost entirely composed of tweets?

[ChippenhamRed]

6 minutes ago, NickJ said:

I don't understand why anybody would want to manipulate stats.

The fact is that we finished 3 points away from relegation.

It is also a fact that we spent more than all bar 6 or 7 teams, considerably more than the majority of the teams around us. 

Nobody needs to manipulate stats to justifiably conclude that it was a very poor return.

 

 

Never mind how much we spent, how much was each squad worth beforehand? One statistic is meaningless without the other.

City started with a threadbare squad with numerous key loans returning at the end of the previous season. Spend alone does not tell the whole story without a baseline onto which that spending was added.

[Natchfever]

2 hours ago, JHAGa said:

 

In the last 23 seasons, our highest finishes have been 4th, 10th, 10th and 15th at this level. Outside of the three year spell under GJ, 18th and 17th last season are some of the highest finishes we've had, the 5th and 6th highest finishes we've had in 23 years. But some continually go on about it being a disaster which is absurd. A disastrous run, absolutely. But a disastrous season, absolutely not. Not a successful season, not an awful one - it was just middle-ground.

 

0 net spend as I'm sure someone will point out how we spent money as always is the case, but they fail to recognise or acknowledge we lost a key player and had we not lost him I'm sure our position would have reflected the money spent as our start to the season seemed to suggest. We brought in reinforcements in January and improved. A finish one place higher than the season before but some people seem to have absurdly high expectations. Hope and wanting to finish higher is fine but expecting us to take the division by storm and comfortably finish top half is just very odd.

Why refer to the previous 23 years. We have a seriously wealthy owner who has backed apparently one of footballs most sought after coaches like no previous manager.

Why should we therefore consider such a season like 16/17 where we avoided the drop by 3 points as "middle ground"

**** ancient history. Either we are serious about our second level status or we aren't.

Accepting the shit served up by Teflon Lee tells me a few of you aren't.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

29 minutes ago, NickJ said:

I don't understand why anybody would want to manipulate stats.

The fact is that we finished 3 points away from relegation.

It is also a fact that we spent more than all bar 6 or 7 teams, considerably more than the majority of the teams around us. 

Nobody needs to manipulate stats to justifiably conclude that it was a very poor return.

 

 

We had to spend the money as Chip said, it was threadbare with numerous loans... try and tell the whole story of why we had to spend £££ 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

26 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

No access to a table so happy to stand corrected but did we not miss relegation by 3 points with it in the balance pre Brighton ?

That being over 46 matches frankly the only stat that matters and what proper managers usually ask to be judged on.

They both sound rather pleased with themselves which frankly grates with me.

Then finishing 17th is the overruling stat that LJ should be judged on, given we struggle in this league alot that would be a realistic expectation. Why should we finish higher? Just because we spent some cash? We had to... as above the squad was far too light in terms of numbers 

[Natchfever]

Just now, Emperor Palpatine said:

Then finishing 17th is the overruling stat that LJ should be judged on, given we struggle in this league alot that would be a realistic expectation. Why should we finish higher? Just because we spent some cash? We had to... as above the squad was far too light in terms of numbers 

I disagree.

Past history of struggle is irrelevant.

lj had a pre season to bolster the squad and then some more in January.

The sought after coach ran before he walked and didn't use expensive recruits leaving us light of the players needed for the here and now.

A failed season and not one to be smug about .

Lets agree to disagree because we are never going to concur on this coach/season

[Gazred]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Same with all clubs.

Haters is a bit strong though- they were fans who were concerned for the club and deeply worried that the progress would be squandered by a shock relegation- which was unimaginable after a third of the season.

I would never knock anyones right to protest in all honesty. I was an LJ out post Fulham but credit where it's due he certainly helped steer us to safety- turned the tide and whose to say a new manager would have done it?

Call them whatever really, the point i am making is where are they now? What has changed since? Same manager, same board, same owner. Only difference is results, unless we are blaming everything on Pembo.

If there was no faith in the owner/board/manager only a mere 2 or 3 months back, what's changed? String a few results together and the protests stop? If that's not fickle i don't know what is.

2 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

It's what.

Steve, you remember, following the Fulham game, and in a RB interview with Geoff before the Wolves game, asked us to desist from the aggravation at the ground because he could see it making the players "shrink" all the way from Guernsey, via his laptop feed. He asked for "raucous" support for the team, and to keep all our "noise" to social media before or after the game. 

So we did. We did as requested. And it worked a treat.

So there you have it. 

 

 

 

 

It's fickle.

Why take any notice of SL - the man the protest would of been aimed at? Hardly how a cause worth protesting about would work surely? Don't get me wrong, anything during the game would only be detrimental to the cause but there were plenty of opportunities to make themselves known before or after a match.

 

2 hours ago, 054123 said:

Deary deary me.

For half the season the club turned out some of the worst performances yoy are likely to see. We barely stayed up by a few points. 

Haters? Don't fall for his victim bullshit. Nobody tried to sabotage the club but some, who love the club like everyone else, voiced concern and anger.

Fair play to those who did.

Shiny medals for those who didn't. 

You all obviously knew we'd stay up by the skin of our teeth.

Keep the noise down whilst the party rages on.

 

No victim BS here, it is a fair question. I also was concerned and angry, even though you're trying to lump me into some happy clapper passive group.

See my reply to @Mr Popodopolous for the rest.

 

[JHAGa]

17 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Why refer to the previous 23 years. We have a seriously wealthy owner who has backed apparently one of footballs most sought after coaches like no previous manager.

Why should we therefore consider such a season like 16/17 where we avoided the drop by 3 points as "middle ground"

**** ancient history. Either we are serious about our second level status or we aren't.

Accepting the shit served up by Teflon Lee tells me a few of you aren't.

 

To provide some perspective for those with strangely high expectations. Like I said, no problem in wanting to finish higher but expecting to finish higher in the division is silly.

 

Finishing 17th is middle ground, absolutely. I don't see how you can dispute it. As I pointed out, outside of a very good three year spell, it's close to the highest finish we've had in 25 years. Certainly not a disaster like some make it to be and hopefully we progress from that next season.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

1 minute ago, Loon plage said:

I disagree.

Past history of struggle is irrelevant.

lj had a pre season to bolster the squad and then some more in January.

The sought after coach ran before he walked and didn't use expensive recruits leaving us light of the players needed for the here and now.

A failed season and not one to be smug about .

Lets agree to disagree because we are never going to concur on this coach/season

That also happened at the start of last season... Johnsons or Ashtons signings were fine at the start of the season, who knew that Matthews and Tomlin both excellent last season would be so poor this season. 

[RedRaw]

9 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Then finishing 17th is the overruling stat that LJ should be judged on, given we struggle in this league alot that would be a realistic expectation. Why should we finish higher? Just because we spent some cash? We had to... as above the squad was far too light in terms of numbers 

So, we finished 18th the previous season but were 12 points off relegation......at the start of the season after bringing in, what 19 players across the squads, and spending millions of pounds, do you seriously think that SL's "realistic expectation" would have been to finish 3 points off relegation?

 

[RumRed]

5 minutes ago, JHAGa said:

 

To provide some perspective for those with strangely high expectations. Like I said, no problem in wanting to finish higher but expecting to finish higher in the division is silly.

 

Finishing 17th is middle ground, absolutely. I don't see how you can dispute it. As I pointed out, outside of a very good three year spell, it's close to the highest finish we've had in 25 years. Certainly not a disaster like some make it to be and hopefully we progress from that next season.

Not exactly how it was sold to us though was it?

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

Just now, RedRaw said:

So, we finished 18th the previous season but were 12 points off relegation......at the start of the season after bringing in, what 19 players across the squads, and spending millions of pounds, do you seriously think that SL's "realistic expectation" would have been to finish 3 points off relegation?

 

We finished 18th because of LJ and Pembo... it was a disaster of the season beforehand where we were rooted at the bottom.

We finished 12 points clear because there were 3 appalling teams... this season was more competitive, look at Wolves spent 30M (3x as much) finished 15th and only 7 points off relegation

[Robin101]

On a different note, which players' agents do we think were in LJ's ear?

Pretty unacceptable.

[downendcity]

Regarding the debate as to how long the poor run lasted in the middle part of the season, the correct answer is too bloody long!

 

 

[JHAGa]

3 minutes ago, RumRed said:

Not exactly how it was sold to us though was it?

 

I don't know, what do you mean by that?

 

Obviously the management, board and fans had high hopes as we do at the start of every season. Every team in the division aims high as the season starts.

 

When we sold Kodjia I expected us to finish around mid-table. Anywhere from 10th-20th wouldn't have been a surprise to me as the division is so close and competitive. I certainly wouldn't have turned my nose up at the thought of finishing 17th although I would of course hoped for us to have finished higher.