The Millwall Debacle

[samo II]

1 hour ago, Olé said:

While we're mentioning books about tactics, can I commend to everyone 'The Mixer' by Michael Cox, which came out over the summer. It covers the tactical progression of football, specifically in England, through the lens of the 25 years of the Premiership. Each of the 25 seasons is used to explain some evolution in footballing tactics and the impact or success it brought, with examples in each case. It's everything from some of Allardyce's innovations through to how to execute the false nine. It's not a textbook, it's very readable and entertaining, even if a lot of the anecdotes are harvested from other biographies, it does get you thinking about the football you watch.

The deconstruction of Keegan's "tactics" is particularly funny/shocking in equal proportions, and the insight into how Ferguson and Queiroz effectively broke down and re-tooled a top side simply to eradicate perceived weaknesses in Europe, absolutely fascinating.

Will have to look that book up.

Certainly think City have yet to truly replace Wade Elliot, who was one of the few players in recent times who could reorganise the side 'on the fly' and get us on the front foot in games that were getting away from us.

Under Johnson senior, we had players like Russell and Marv Elliott (in his pomp) who had that capacity to pivot things from the centre of the pitch, and even during the tricky period after GJ left, a a few players (most notably Cissé) were able to produce that impact, albeit in slightly more chaotic circumstances.

I have said before; we need someone in the centre doing this.  I like Korey Smith a lot, but for all his industry, that isn't his game.  Pack also provides a solid range of passing and defensive commitment, but neither can get us organised in-game like we need.

Can't think of who is out there we might be able to bring in that could help us in this area, but I still say this is the position we most need a player for.

[Jacki]

1 hour ago, Olé said:

I think this could be very close to the heart of the issue mate.

I'm struck by the fact that all these players we've endlessly assembled over three transfer windows, I don't know that there is one I can look at and think: finished article, stick him in the team for guaranteed results. Not one of them. They all seem incomplete, raw or with much more to do, to be consistent. Johnson's history of changes to the starting eleven seem to back that up (dropping many of his signings) and I suspect it is only a matter of time before Diedhiou is "rested" too.

And yet we play a game that by Johnson's own admission in his interviews, he expects the players to execute a gameplan that he apparently has absolute faith in, often without any significant plan B. There is a disconnect between buying all these promising but incomplete players (people like Paterson - runs about a lot but no way is he a consistent 46 game a season player) and then expecting them to have the quality to perform an apparently complex, inflexible pattern of play.

I realise that by their nature the 'finished article' type players cost millions of pounds and play in the Premiership, but I do think you make a really important point about this conflict between what Johnson wants the team to do and the players he keeps buying. He'd have been better off not buying the 10-15 odd £1m+ players he's bought, and just sticking £20m on a top class central midfielder. Not one player he's bought is such a significant upgrade that his plans are being executed.

Totally agree. I understand what we're trying to do by bringing in youngsters and developing them but how many look like 'making it' any time soon?  

I said this pre season but I'll say it again. The likes of Magnússon, Moore, O'Dowda, Engvall and Eliasson all cost well over £1m. That's a hell of a lot of money for a club like us to spend on lads who in some cases seem light years away from the first team. Surely there's better value to be had in the lower leagues if we're going for promising youngsters? We just seem to spunk money on a load of these players in the hope that one or two might come off. The only signing of this type we've made that's come off so far is Kodjia, and that one pre-dates LJ.....

[chinapig]

27 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Sports psychology emphasises focussing on what you do well and right over lingering on mistakes and errors. It comes from the States and the Positive Psychology movement, which moved away from the old European/ psychoanalytic focus on problems and what is wrong with your life, and focussed on what is good and right and awesome!

Have a nice day. And get your teeth bleached.

And move to California perhaps? 

[Fontaineofallknowledge]

It's the championship so we are going to have good games and bad games.  It was dire but millwall did a job on us so derserve some credit.  

Our defence looks solid which is a big positive and I'm sure diedhou will improve (I'm not convinced yet).

obviously the two areas we are lacking is a dominant central midfielder and some pace to actually stretch teams.  GON was supposed to be that midfielder and he can be if he stays fit imo. As for the pace we really should have gone for vassell-looked quality on Friday night..

[...]

2 hours ago, Rednwhiterob said:

Not sure that would go down well. Do you mean the hideous troll or 'that' other one?   Seems combining alcohol and OTIB isn't a good idea. 

Yeah! The troll one - that was great.

We could spot your posts right away without even reading them.

Be a pal?

 

tfj

[Portland Bill]

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

AND Ipswich have played the exact four teams we have so far: Barnsley, Millwall, Birmingham and Brentford and won all four games!

I doubt Ipswich will be 'up there' come the end of the season, they have simply just been getting the job done against average/poor teams.

Concerning.

Ipswich have a manager who 100% knows what he wants, his players will know what he wants, and they will do what he wants them to do. The Ipswich supporters will know what they will get, whether they like it or not is another thing, but at least they understand their manager and his tactical plan.

We seem to have someone in charge that 'thinks' he knows what's needed, after 18 months in charge it's clear that the players  don't know what he wants, and us fans are more confused weekly than even the players!.

I'm sitting here watching Huddersfield play on the tv, they have a manager who clearly knows the game, what's needed, a lovely style of play, and players that 100% buy into the managers ideas.

The question is, why did/does SL employ a novice in a league where know how is so important?. A novice who hadn't even learnt how to be a manager/coach, and someone no other Championship chairman would have even thought about employing.

We desperately need know how and knowledge in the AG dugout, we are so lacking it.

 

[ScottishRed]

3 hours ago, bearded_red said:

His team also managed to keep a clean sheet against Brentford yesterday while an injury crisis meant his entire back four were fullbacks.

Great result given that some on here midweek were stating that Brentford were nailed on for the play - offs after our amazing point their on Tuesday.

[ScottishRed]

1 hour ago, Jacki said:

Totally agree. I understand what we're trying to do by bringing in youngsters and developing them but how many look like 'making it' any time soon?  

I said this pre season but I'll say it again. The likes of Magnússon, Moore, O'Dowda, Engvall and Eliasson all cost well over £1m. That's a hell of a lot of money for a club like us to spend on lads who in some cases seem light years away from the first team. Surely there's better value to be had in the lower leagues if we're going for promising youngsters? We just seem to spunk money on a load of these players in the hope that one or two might come off. The only signing of this type we've made that's come off so far is Kodjia, and that one pre-dates LJ.....

And that is for me, the crux of the problem.

The plan to buy promising youngsters and get the benefit of them playing for us whilst they develop and increase their sale value is fine if,

1. In the main you buy ones that can / will do that, clearly not all can and that is not the clubs fault but you have to have at least a 50% hit rate.

2. You need to play them consistently - we don't because they are not good enough for this division.

3. You have to accept that the ones with a high percentage chance of making it are already at  an EPL or top Championship side.

4. Whilst you are doing all this you still need to make some sort of progress on the pitch, therefore you need to strengthen the first team along side this.

In my opinion we have spent a lot of money on 'ones for the future' who are not playing that much, were expensive and do not have an increasing resale value - as far as I am aware nobody is flooding MA's inbox with offers for the likes of O'Dowda, Moore or Brownhill.

 

 

[Torbay_Red]

31 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Ipswich have a manager who 100% knows what he wants, his players will know what he wants, and they will do what he wants them to do. The Ipswich supporters will know what they will get, whether they like it or not is another thing, but at least they understand their manager and his tactical plan.

We seem to have someone in charge that 'thinks' he knows what's needed, after 18 months in charge it's clear that the players  don't know what he wants, and us fans are more confused weekly than even the players!.

I'm sitting here watching Huddersfield play on the tv, they have a manager who clearly knows the game, what's needed, a lovely style of play, and players that 100% buy into the managers ideas.

The question is, why did/does SL employ a novice in a league where know how is so important?. A novice who hadn't even learnt how to be a manager/coach, and someone no other Championship chairman would have even thought about employing.

We desperately need know how and knowledge in the AG dugout, we are so lacking it.

I'm no fan of LJ but, recruiting somebody with no knowledge of the Championship. Isn't that what Huddersfield did?

31 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

 

 

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, samo II said:

Brilliant example of a manager who can set a team up that has the tactical nous to adapt to another side's game plan and build a platform to play off taking place right now in the Huddersfield Newcastle game.

Huddersfield set up and kicked off with their swashbuckling, forward thinking style, putting Newcastle under great pressure.  But Newcastle have identified they are being overrun out wide, and this is being dictated by Mooy, so are doubling up in those areas and hunting Mooy down, forcing him further back.

Benitez is an absolute master are imbuing his sides with the flexibility and intelligence to adapt to and counter opposing game plans, and brilliant display of it today.

What was that about Mooy again? 

[Kid in the Riot]

35 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

The question is, why did/does SL employ a novice in a league where know how is so important?. A novice who hadn't even learnt how to be a manager/coach, and someone no other Championship chairman would have even thought about employing.

Because SL is a very good family friend of that novice. SL gets to call the shots whilst LJ remains in charge, which is how he likes it. He doesn't like managers like SC and SOD who aren't interested in being his friend and just want to be allowed to get on with the job in hand. There in no other plausible explanation.

[Aizoon]

Suggestion to FIFA for rule change - give fans the right to book refs for time-wasting. They really don't need to check every free-kick position on GPS. Do they do it to give themselves a breather, I wonder?

[samo II]

42 minutes ago, chinapig said:

What was that about Mooy again? 

Newcastle let him drift start of the second half and he made them pay - after that, they couldn't afford to waste a player chasing him.  Feel it kind of proved my point tbh.

[Portland Bill]

1 hour ago, Torbay_Red said:

I'm no fan of LJ but, recruiting somebody with no knowledge of the Championship. Isn't that what Huddersfield did?

 

Knowledge and experience of coaching at a good level I'm talking about. Not someone who spent half a season at Oldham and Barnsley.

Your point is not relative to what I said.

 

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, samo II said:

Newcastle let him drift start of the second half and he made them pay - after that, they couldn't afford to waste a player chasing him.  Feel it kind of proved my point tbh.

Actually I agree, just couldn't resist.

I'm a fan of Rafa too but he has a pretty average squad. Won't be surprised to see him walk.

[BCFC Rich]

1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

Ipswich have a manager who 100% knows what he wants, his players will know what he wants, and they will do what he wants them to do. The Ipswich supporters will know what they will get, whether they like it or not is another thing, but at least they understand their manager and his tactical plan.

We seem to have someone in charge that 'thinks' he knows what's needed, after 18 months in charge it's clear that the players  don't know what he wants, and us fans are more confused weekly than even the players!.

I'm sitting here watching Huddersfield play on the tv, they have a manager who clearly knows the game, what's needed, a lovely style of play, and players that 100% buy into the managers ideas.

The question is, why did/does SL employ a novice in a league where know how is so important?. A novice who hadn't even learnt how to be a manager/coach, and someone no other Championship chairman would have even thought about employing.

We desperately need know how and knowledge in the AG dugout, we are so lacking it.

 

People can have a genuine reason to bash LJ and even want him out but when you go around trying to use anything to support your point you weaken your argument. Ipswich are a Team who are doing exactly what we are doing they are sticking by a manager recognising that changing them isn't always the best option. MM has been in charge since the end of 2012 - in that time the team have finished 15th, 14th, 9th, 6th, 7th and last season 16th one place and 1 point above us. They are the perfect example of why judging anything or anyone in this league after 4 games is ridiculous. They could quite easily be a dark horse and go up, they could quite easily slip away and end up relegated. People would not be shocked either way at this point.

[Jacki]

56 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

And that is for me, the crux of the problem.

The plan to buy promising youngsters and get the benefit of them playing for us whilst they develop and increase their sale value is fine if,

1. In the main you buy ones that can / will do that, clearly not all can and that is not the clubs fault but you have to have at least a 50% hit rate.

2. You need to play them consistently - we don't because they are not good enough for this division.

3. You have to accept that the ones with a high percentage chance of making it are already at  an EPL or top Championship side.

4. Whilst you are doing all this you still need to make some sort of progress on the pitch, therefore you need to strengthen the first team along side this.

In my opinion we have spent a lot of money on 'ones for the future' who are not playing that much, were expensive and do not have an increasing resale value - as far as I am aware nobody is flooding MA's inbox with offers for the likes of O'Dowda, Moore or Brownhill.

 

 

Totally agree. In fact, I'd say half of them are decreasing in value rather than going the other way as is the plan. Moore, Engvall and Magnússon to name three are all worth less than we paid for them, and we'd be lucky to get our money back on O'Dowda. I appreciate not every signing will come off, but when you think those four cost us about £6m in transfer fees alone, it seems like a really flawed policy. 

[Red Exile]

3 minutes ago, RichardEdd said:

People can have a genuine reason to bash LJ and even want him out but when you go around trying to use anything to support your point you weaken your argument. Ipswich are a Team who are doing exactly what we are doing they are sticking by a manager recognising that changing them isn't always the best option. MM has been in charge since the end of 2012 - in that time the team have finished 15th, 14th, 9th, 6th, 7th and last season 16th one place and 1 point above us. They are the perfect example of why judging anything or anyone in this league after 4 games is ridiculous. They could quite easily be a dark horse and go up, they could quite easily slip away and end up relegated. People would not be shocked either way at this point.

I have no doubt that @Portland Bill can respond himself but from my pov - odd though it might seem to others - far from Mick McCarthy being an example of "using anything" to have a go at Lee Johnson he's almost the perfect example of what Lee Johnson isn't, and what I reckon Bristol City have needed since GJ left...a manager who has been around at this level and higher for years, has developed players (has even taken a side to the World Cup) and who knows his trade. I'd suggest that Lee Johnson doesn't know his trade, and is learning on the job, and that is the reason he's making so little use of the resources available to him...not just over 4 games but since the wheels fell off the wagon last autumn.

[samo II]

27 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Actually I agree, just couldn't resist.

I'm a fan of Rafa too but he has a pretty average squad. Won't be surprised to see him walk.

He's been massively let down by Ashley.  Telling that while Huddersfield rapidly moved to bring in the players they needed this summer, and have used their momentum to start on the front foot, Newcastle look worryingly short.

They don't just need one or two but four or five to do anything more than struggle, even with Benitez in charge (if he stays that is).

[Portland Bill]

27 minutes ago, RichardEdd said:

People can have a genuine reason to bash LJ and even want him out but when you go around trying to use anything to support your point you weaken your argument. Ipswich are a Team who are doing exactly what we are doing they are sticking by a manager recognising that changing them isn't always the best option. MM has been in charge since the end of 2012 - in that time the team have finished 15th, 14th, 9th, 6th, 7th and last season 16th one place and 1 point above us. They are the perfect example of why judging anything or anyone in this league after 4 games is ridiculous. They could quite easily be a dark horse and go up, they could quite easily slip away and end up relegated. People would not be shocked either way at this point.

I'm not judging anyone after 4 games, I'm judging someone after 18 months, 18 months of dire, negative mostly clueless losing football. A manager who still blames 'his ' players when 'his' tactics fail.

Ipswich have a proven experienced manager, someone we all know will get it right in the end, someone who hasn't had the luxury of buying 20 plus players for massive amounts of money ( massive amount for our club). 

A MM led Bristol City team with £20 million spent on it over 18 months, would knock spots off the current BCFC managers team, plus, he would have spent the £20 million on players who 'would' fit into the system he wants to play.

Or perhaps I'm completely wrong, perhaps I'm the only one that doesn't believe the team who played Millwall yesterday represents £20 million well spent, and that the players all look comfortable fitting into the system our current manager tells us he's employing!.

 

 

[WhistleHappy]

19 hours ago, oldstandrobin said:

and for me a couple of ciders tonight,  a *COD LOT and a good red wine. Bristol City FC  should now be called the Houdinis, not the Robins, now you see them, now you dont.

*compulsive edit, apologies.  

[oldstandrobin]

1 hour ago, WhistleHappy said:

*compulsive edit, apologies.  

no probs, but since Evelyns closed, and Evans's in North Street a cod lot aint a lot of cod anymore

[Cowshed]

6 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I think that's why I preferred Cotts' post match interview. You could tell if he was fuming but he'd blame the pitch, the weather, the ref - basically anyone else but the players (in public). I just don't think LJ's approach is constructive, may be he's not capable of constructive criticism? 

Its an approach amongst approaches. Don't coat players off in public, defect blame and the message to players is "I'm there for you" and "its about us". The psychology is sound and more likely to gain a marginal gain than public dressing down.

I just don't think LJ's approach is constructive .. As mentioned I don't read much into his post match interviews. His recent uttering regarding Aden Flint "head turned .." I fail to see how can be of benefit regarding a player who is admired for his commitment if he is a part of the future, its introducing doubt where there was none.

 

6 hours ago, chinapig said:

I don't disagree with anything you say, and confirmation bias is a factor in the thinking of fans as much as managers!

Being critIcal doesn't have to be slagging off individuals, as Wenger did yesterday and Mourinho has done with Luke Shaw for instance, it means just what you say above.

I suppose all I'm saying is I fear managers can have a superficial understanding of the subject, not getting past page 1of the manual. Then they can delude themselves that all is well when it isn't.

I may have to study MOM more thoroughly.

Regarding confirmation bias I had this in spades. England was incredibly insular tactically. I was guilty of looking at European football of being fancy but lacking in spirit etc ... It was of course bollocks.

[Inactive user]

5 hours ago, Taxi for Johnson said:

Yeah! The troll one - that was great.

We could spot your posts right away without even reading them.

Be a pal?

 

tfj

You'd miss all the good stuff if you didn't read them though surely?

[pillred]

7 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Ha! He will be back on the bench by Christmas!

just like most kids we all don't get what we want at Christmas!! so you maybe disappointed this year.

[mbricks]

23 hours ago, YorkshireSection said:

Woodrows record is awful, not really a signing that I'm thrilled about, I thought we were looking for a striker with pace and presence, as for Diedhiou I have a bad feeling.

100%correct - they are both rubbish - 

[Garland-sweden]

Think Famara is a very good player. It will work out fine for him. He is strong, can shot, good in the air. He nearly scored yesterday, think his score will come. We where not good yesterday but the defence worked and Frankie is a good gk.Bryan hit the bar, we could have won but also lost. We took one point, disapointed I am but shit happens. 42 more games. City-Villa on sky friday will watching. Was at the gate last season City-Villa 3-1, great second half. Always believe, Coyr!!!

[Cov 77]

1 hour ago, mbricks said:

100%correct - they are both rubbish - 

Have you seen either play ?

[Davefevs]

On 19/08/2017 at 21:18, Alex_BCFC said:

Millwall shipped 4 at home on Tuesday yet we barely threatened them all game. We didn't look like we had a plan of what to do apart from 10 mins until half-time, and small spells at the start and end of the 2nd half. Then I hear LJ moaning about the fixture list in August - incredible. 

Fielding probably MOTM despite his shambolic kicking. I guess Wright and Baker were fairly solid and dealt with corners well. Struggling to credit any others. Joe Bryan, who somehow was given official MOTM, had a terrible first half. He seemed to think he all day long of the ball and was closed down so many times. 2nd half he did improve and hit a decent effort (one of only 2 efforts of note at their goal). Pisano not too bad but turns like a tank.

Korey Smith was incredibly bad. Pack marginally better. But essentially that central midfield isn't going to do anything in this league. Brownhill is not a winger either. Paterson tried to be productive but wasn't - I do think he is a reasonable player though and when he was involved at the end of last season it really helped us.

Up top Diedhoiu had a poor touch and was isolated. I think he will be good long term but he had little chance today. Reid the odd good touch but not involved much.

Very concerning so far. Forget Plymouth in the reserves cup. Barnsley are clearing a shocking side - stripped of all their decent players. Birmingham weren't great (although we did play well first half) and Brentford have had a shocking start yet apparently battered us for the majority of the game. Now Millwall, who will be down there with us, outplayed us. In fact no surprise to see all these teams in the bottom half despite how early it is.

I'll be amazed if we aren't in the bottom 6 teams.

 

On 19/08/2017 at 21:24, theshaksta said:

Spot on. Ipswich who were tipped by all the experts to struggle and possibly get relegated, have won all 4 games against the same 4 teams we managed 1 win against.

 

On 19/08/2017 at 22:08, tts_city said:

was that their number 19 ? if so yes i thought he did very well, sort of player we could do with while Đurić is out.

 

12 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@BobBobSuperBob raises an important point there, one I noticed Day 1. Even v Barnsley at 3 up, we tailed off drastically in 2nd half.

Now 3 up, hot day so a drop off to some extent inevitable...no big problem in isolation, but I really hoped LJ would have learnt from that. There was a lesson in that.

Start of last season, I thought it was our superior fitness that came through and got us those 'turnaround' results.  By Xmas we looked incapable of looking strong at the end of 90 minutes.  I do think ball-chasing at Brentford had an effect yesterday.  That's not an excuse.  With all the science we should be able to spot those players who are about to dip.  Maybe we did, but thought they can have their rest on Tuesday.  I know the great AC Milan had to really get their players to buy-in to their science approach, e.g. A striker in good form being rested because the science told them he was about to dip against the curve.  I do think Barnsley was an easing off, not a fitness issue. 

12 hours ago, foghornred said:

Credit to Millwall they made it the game that they wanted to play,unfortunately we could not impose our game on them, its not pretty to watch and if you don't stand up to it you will get beaten.

A goal for us may have changed it a little but a goal for them would have made it worse, so for me that was a great defensive display and we move on after gaining a good point in a game that would have lost last year. COYR  

True, and to some extent I was just waiting for Millwall to score.  Not because they deserved it (nor did we), but for the sheer volume of balls they put into our box, and more importantly we are Bristol City, and we usually gift goals to sides like this and leave ourselves a mountain to climb against a cynical side, who suck the life out of the game and suck the time off of the clock.  In some ways a point is better than we would've got last season.  Still see it as two dropped.  But I did respond to someone last week that if we could turn 5 defeats into 5 draws and therefore 5 more points we'd be midtable.  I think we got one on Tuesday and maybe another yesterday.

10 hours ago, Bazooka Joe said:

I believe McCarthy signed both Waghorn and Garner for just £2m - they're banging in the goals and will probably contniue to do so.

Johnson pays £7m(?) for Fammy and brings in Woodrow - neither of whom who on the early evidence are gonna set the world alight.

I know which two I'd rather have.

Hope I'm proved wrong.

Likewise Warnock seems to have brought in some good 'uns at Cardiff.

Ipswich and Cardiff off to flying starts; we.on the other hand, already seem dire and punchless.

Early days, but it looks like grim times ahead....unless something dramtatic happens..

 

 

 

I've posted plenty of times that Garner (for all of his poor goals record at this level) is a decent player, and a good partner.  Nice to see him get some goals too, because he is an unselfish player.  I dislike him as an opponent, but would have happily had him on our side.  No little about Waghorn.

There would've been an uproar on here had we signed Garner.  Gonna have to do a search of Garner and Waghorn to see if you've been a previous 'nay-sayer' on them 

6 hours ago, Aizoon said:

Suggestion to FIFA for rule change - give fans the right to book refs for time-wasting. They really don't need to check every free-kick position on GPS. Do they do it to give themselves a breather, I wonder?

The one yesterday with Frank was driving me mad.  He ended up taking the free-kick further away from the original incident that Frank initially took the free-kick from.  The ref wasn't great, but he didn't have much choice with some of our silly, needless fouls.

Let he ask a question.  Scenario: You are playing a team that try every little trick in the book, trying to waste time, wind you up.  You get a free-kick, but the ball is 30 yards from the infringement and you need to return the ball to that spot.  There is a player 10 yards from the spot of the infringement, in a direct line from the ball.  Do you.

a) try to curl it around him

b) try to chip it over him

c) roll a pass straight to him

Answer:

c) every time.

Player, usually Morison or Gregory, then either stop it dead and move away, or if another City player is near them, they deflect the ball somewhere else.

How come I can see that and am up in arms at it, but:

1) City players / coaches can't

2) the referee can't

[redandy1]

6 hours ago, RichardEdd said:

People can have a genuine reason to bash LJ and even want him out but when you go around trying to use anything to support your point you weaken your argument. Ipswich are a Team who are doing exactly what we are doing they are sticking by a manager recognising that changing them isn't always the best option. MM has been in charge since the end of 2012 - in that time the team have finished 15th, 14th, 9th, 6th, 7th and last season 16th one place and 1 point above us. They are the perfect example of why judging anything or anyone in this league after 4 games is ridiculous. They could quite easily be a dark horse and go up, they could quite easily slip away and end up relegated. People would not be shocked either way at this point.

There  is no value in sticking with a Manager for it's own sake. They have to be able to do the job. The differences between McCarthy and Johnson are massive in terms of experience.He gets nothing like the funds Johnson has been given. Yet comes up with Waghorn and Garner for the price we paid for Engvall who seems destined never to play for us. I do agree judging a Manager on 4 games is ridiculous but how can you still play that card when he is managing us for his third season.