Which LJ signings have improved since coming here ?

[Fiale]

1 hour ago, Olé said:

I was thinking about exactly this question yesterday but decided that for now, it was such an unfavourable analysis, it should be avoided, as it would be seen as another explicit LJ out argument, at a time that most people quite reasonably want to wait until October before passing judgement.

But since you've raised the question. The track record is appalling. We have more £1m+ players he's signed that can't even get in the starting 11 consistently, than he has improved. In fact Wright, Brownhill and Paterson are the only ones with enough playing time to even be up for debate.

Wright is solid if unspectacular but I don't think you could say he has much of a higher ceiling to develop further. Paterson hasn't improved his consistency and prior to this season was not a first choice. So that just leaves Brownill who you can make a case for. He's certainly more physical.

I think Brownhill is the one, although I'm not certain what standard he reached at Barnsley as he played consistently to rave reviews. Part of the issue with objectively measuring Johnson's impact is he's marginalised so many of his own signings, just playing regularly becomes a 'development'.

 

If you widen the scope to include all players, then the answer is not any better. As I understand it Joe Bryan does not attribute any credit to current coaching, quite the opposite, the whole Flint thing stems from his own similar concerns, and there is no discernible improvement in any of our midfielders.

The obvious one for his revelatory performances this season alone is Bobby Reid, but then Johnson's man management of him last season was as appalling as any, and a better clue to his physical transformation is that the player himself sought out private coaching with Premiership players over the summer.

Like I said, I did not want to have this debate now as it will be seen as a stick to beat LJ with before he's had his allotted and fair time to prove himself this season, but this dichotomy between his role as 'coach' and few of his players developing, was always the biggest argument against Lansdown's position. 

 

That's not common is it ? Seems a very poor indictment of what our coaching setup can offer. I am not sure how ready for Championship coaching new coaches is (is it a long learning curve or something you can just hit the ground with running) but all three of our coaches have just 3 years experience. It seems painfully little when they are responsible for a mutli million pound product, would any other industry put someone (or a team)  with so little experience (just 3 years) in charge of producing results.

[Nogbad the Bad]

5 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I think they came together as a team instantly which I think is a form of improvement. 

Jesus, weren't they good times. 

Says everything about Cotts. New players immediately liked and respected him, bonded with him and their fellow players producing the fantastic squad spirit we all saw on and off the pitch.

All engendered by him and unlikely to be repeated I fear.

Absolute pleasure to support SC and his team, Bristol City F.C. at it's best.

[Fiale]

26 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I was under the impression that Tomlin had played the majority of all of Cardiffs games. I can't be arsed to look it up, but I'm sure he's been regularly substituted at about 70 mins. 

And you're right, every deficiency isn't LJ's fault, they can't be. But more than a good share are... and shockingly, I'm not a fan. 

 

He is being played every other game (I am guessing due to fitness) and being subbed 65-70 minute mark which makes sense for the position he plays (and his fitness levels) - I guess we will need to wait a while to see if he gets more game time or less, at the moment it's a sort of trial run I guess.

[Murraysrightplum]

3 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Difficult to say whether that was as a result of LJ's superb coaching on the training pitches, or whether Tammy is just a massive talent who would've flourished under any manager in the Championship.

As I said, a really difficult one to say...

That wasn't the question 

[glynriley]

19 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

I'm only 21 so I'm yet to fully experience endless seasons of misery but I enjoyed the season after the double winning one more. Winning genuinely bored me come the end, a good relegation scrap always excites me more. 

You're going to love the next few years then...

[Lrrr]

41 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Wilbs, Korey, Freeman, Ayling, Little, Kodjia, hell, even Agard became a world beater. 

Thing is there you're talking about playing in the division below, we signed the best players from other sides in league one and brought them together, playing with other good players likely made them better, not sure how much Cotts improved them but certainly gets credit for bringing them together. Wilbs however we signed from the premier league and brought down to league 1, we'd have been disappointed if a striker doing that didn't score a lot. Agard scored 26 goals the previous season for Rotherham playing right wing, playing up front for us the next season he scored 15 in 9 fewer appearances. You could say he did worse for us (12 less goals in 9 less games) however having to take into account the change of position. 

The discussion really is easy, in a way, to argue for any point of view.  

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

I would think Tammy "improved" - or perhaps, merely demonstrated what he already had - by simply being given the chance. The chance to play every week over a full season in meaningful first team football with a lot at stake.

I'm not sure he needed any more coaching to improve, so much as he needed an opportunity to play, in first team football.

I would think that even LJ couldn't have ****** Tammy up.

[Major Isewater]

30 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

I'm only 21 so I'm yet to fully experience endless seasons of misery but I enjoyed the season after the double winning one more. Winning genuinely bored me come the end, a good relegation scrap always excites me more. 

Weirdo.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

33 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

I'm only 21 so I'm yet to fully experience endless seasons of misery but I enjoyed the season after the double winning one more. Winning genuinely bored me come the end, a good relegation scrap always excites me more. 

You must be in heaven then, 3rd relegation scrap on the trot methinks.

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Difficult to say whether that was as a result of LJ's superb coaching on the training pitches, or whether Tammy is just a massive talent who would've flourished under any manager in the Championship.

As I said, a really difficult one to say...

Heard Holden on national radio talking about Tammy when he signed for Swansea 

He described Tammy as being almost obsessed with football and constantly , continually reviewing and studying clips and games and constantly approaching staff for feedback

I've no doubt that his experience here and some of the coaching and help he received here,  would have helped him but the real driving force behind Tammys development appears to be Tammy himself and his hunger to improve

wasnt the  slightest surprised when I heard that about him (Tammy) and why he will make the very best of the ability he has

 

As a side note Imsee a few have mentioned Bobby Reid and I do think that LJ and co have worked with him and improved him, (Recall his 'third man work with BR ' ?)

I also think that Reid's attendance at the fitness camp with a few other pros from around the country , off his own back is admirable and good to see (Like Tammy constantly analysing his own game) and as think you can see the results in his play 

[MarkRed!]

1 hour ago, WRERE said:

Yes I know how he was used in Germany. What's the point you're trying to make here exactly? There are many players who play in a 2 man midfield who don't have pace yet play the position well, as you've said Pack and O'Neil don't have pace yet they've done much better than he has and still play so I doubt it's down to his pace. It's not that he can only play in one system, it's that he can't play in the one we are using and he's attributes are that of a holding midfielder which isn't something we employ. He's also perfect adept at playing centre half hence why we and other clubs have used him there.

I agree that's one of the reasons why he was bought in and the other is that he could also fill in defensively. Maybe we should stick to one system even if it doesn't get results like Cotts did.

The point I was trying to make is that he plainly was a utility player and he filled in. It is only LJ who says he cant play in a midfield 2. This is the same LJ who last year said Mags was not a LB despite playing there for Iceland and now says he is!. The man is a clown!!

Further, would you really say Smith, Pack or O'Neill can play in a 2. SC certainly did not think so.  Hegeler is better than all of those players.

Cotterill, for everything people say, played the best football of any recent City Manager and not one person argued about his formation when we were winning. For whatever reason he had a blow up with the board following promotion and did not build on that success leaving us with a weak squad to tackle a tough league. However, his team still played better football than this shite we are being served up by LJ. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 hours ago, hodge said:

Was it a case of trying to bring in players who the club couldn't financially afford that caused the fall out? If so seems that a fair portion of that would be his fault then.

Depends on your view whether giving two or three proven quality players decent wages to come in and play very Saturday and improve us , is better value than having a largish group of million pound + signings sat on the bench , not in squad or out on loan , with a collective wage higher than those two or three  first teamers is better value

Just a thought

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Shtanley said:

How many Cotts signings improved under Cotts. 

Was going to say most of them but I think a fairer explanation was he got virtually all of them playing to their max at that time and very importantly knew who he wanted , how he was going to utilise them and significantly every player seemed to know and understand their role and what was expected of them as part of a well formed , well drilled side , who,played some tremendous football

Sadly the events of the following summer seemed to owed to SC losing the plot

 

As one of a number of concerns , Like @Olé I've tried to leave the recruitment and development alone in the present climate , for the reasons he gave , but it appears to me we recruit at times without a real plan how we are going to utilise them (Personally think our recruitment is extremely 'iffy' and a very mixed bag at absolute best and one of the major issues)

 

[JoeAman08]

I think a few have improved but admittedly it's been a slow progression. Maybe easier to develop 1-2 young players in an older squad. Completely different trying to get 6-7 up to speed  to help compete in a tough league with relatively young players as the "leaders." It's the route the club wanted to go down and it looks like some players may be stagnating because we have too many to coach up and not enough time to give them as individuals.

Is this LJs fault or SLs? Think that's the more relevant question. Maybe LJ is doing his best under what SL wants long term. Maybe nobody could make us a promotion contender as it stands and would be hard to improve 6-7 youngsters all at once. 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

4 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

I think a few have improved but admittedly it's been a slow progression. Maybe easier to develop 1-2 young players in an older squad. Completely different trying to get 6-7 up to speed  to help compete in a tough league with relatively young players as the "leaders." It's the route the club wanted to go down and it looks like some players may be stagnating because we have too many to coach up and not enough time to give them as individuals.

Is this LJs fault or SLs? Think that's the more relevant question. Maybe LJ is doing his best under what SL wants long term. Maybe nobody could make us a promotion contender as it stands and would be hard to improve 6-7 youngsters all at once. 

That begs a follow up question, how much longer are BCFC going to pursue a policy of signing so many non championship ready players, who have to be brought up to speed at a very slow progress (some might say to slow for the naked eye) is 3 transfer windows perhaps enough?.

[JoeAman08]

3 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

That begs a follow up question, how much longer are BCFC going to pursue a policy of signing so many non championship ready players, who have to be brought up to speed at a very slow progress (some might say to slow for the naked eye) is 3 transfer windows perhaps enough?.

The 3 windows have been strange. I'd say this window has been our best and even then some questions to be asked about the players. 

First window, clearly focused on too many young players not ready to contribute. Moore, O'Dowda, Brownhill, Engvall and Magnússon all brought in and other than Mags needed at least 6 months to be more regular contributors. Even then only Brownhill is probably championship ready for starting 40+ games. COD still best as an impact player and I do think he's almost there but a year and a half to get there? Mags was good but couldn't go 46 championship games. Baffling how he can't get one now though. Confidence looks shaken now as well. Engvall doesn't need any more discussion. Moore looks miles off after watching him the other night on the U23. 

Then the January window where I truly think we panicked. Matty T worth doing at that price and same with Wright. Hegeler similar but a gamble changing leagues this late in career and Đurić bought because Wilbs couldn't do 90 min. 

This window I think we targeted quality. Whether they turn out that way, we will see but gut is we went for players to fit us and a system. Diedhiou can hold it up to get our tricky wingers and other striker running off of him. Eliasson one of those and Pisano providing width and willingness to cross. Baker young and loads of games at this level and higher. Good business. Woodrow seems a bit of a panic though but he could turn out ok. 

Just seems we didn't have a good plan for the first two windows and now this is basically the first to get quality that fits a system and we now look short in a few positions again. I don't know who is to blame but hopefully(and we have the ability) we stay mid table and continue to add in January to fit our pressing style we want to play. 

[Lrrr]

46 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Depends on your view whether giving two or three proven quality players decent wages to come in and play very Saturday and improve us , is better value than having a largish group of million pound + signings sat on the bench , not in squad or out on loan , with a collective wage higher than those two or three  first teamers is better value

Just a thought

 

Gayle, Gray etc we were likely spending £6m plus on transfer fees for players who would have been on huge wages, perhaps Cotterill was unfortunate being a couple of years early with regards to our development. Would have been interesting if we had the financial clout we do now the stadium is finished. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, hodge said:

Gayle, Gray etc we were likely spending £6m plus on transfer fees for players who would have been on huge wages, perhaps Cotterill was unfortunate being a couple of years early with regards to our development. Would have been interesting if we had the financial clout we do now the stadium is finished. 

They would look like bargains right now !!

If we had  projected ahead and realised how good players are now increasing in value weekly surely SL might have gone for it

I'm surprised so many in the football industry seem to have been surprised by the rapid acceleration in termsmofmtv deals / money / transfer fees / player values

You would think SL might be ahead of most in that respect

 

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

They would look like bargains right now !!

If we had  projected ahead and realised how good players are now increasing in value weekly surely SL might have gone for it

I'm surprised so many in the football industry seem to have been surprised by the rapid acceleration in termsmofmtv deals / money / transfer fees / player values

You would think SL might be ahead of most in that respect

 

Yes they would look like bargains now, however as you've said yourself the market has accelerated at a huge rate and at the time they were still considered expensive deals in this division. However projecting that they would become good deals is still problematic on the front that we potentially couldn't afford the deals financially and if the players hadn't performed on the pitch a resale value could have been less then we are seeing now. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, hodge said:

Yes they would look like bargains now, however as you've said yourself the market has accelerated at a huge rate and at the time they were still considered expensive deals in this division. However projecting that they would become good deals is still problematic on the front that we potentially couldn't afford the deals financially and if the players hadn't performed on the pitch a resale value could have been less then we are seeing now. 

Sure I accept that , fair points

Im still surprised in the industry that everyone seems to have been surprised by the rise in prices (Ridiculously so this Summer of course )

All comes down to your recruitment and your faith in your recruitment for me

If you have %100'faith in your recruitment team you'd (SL) back with £££ with confidence as even if you pay say £10 million for Player A - that's not too much of a concern if you are confident you will get your money back or more likely a healthy profit at some point in the future 

If you don't have %100 faith , suddenly that £10 million looks a lot of money (Which it is of course !) and the further away you get from %100 Faith the bigger that £10 million outlay looks

Id like,to,know SLs honest views on recent recruitment and how much confidence he has in spending atm - I actually think that too many Engvalls / Taylor Moore's not making the first team may be LJs undoing with SL if there is going to be one

[RumRed]

Meanwhile an agent in Sweden is trying out their new sauna.

[Kid in the Riot]

43 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Id like,to,know SLs honest views on recent recruitment and how much confidence he has in spending atm - I actually think that too many Engvalls / Taylor Moore's not making the first team may be LJs undoing with SL if there is going to be one

Indeed. Though he can dine off the Kodjia fee for a while longer. What kind of returns are we going to be getting off all these £1-2m players in the next 1-2 years, if any?

Diedhiou, could, be the straw (well hay bale) that breaks the camel's back if he turns out to be a dud at an eye-watering £5.3m. Heads would have to roll! But here's hoping there's (a lot) more to come from him.

[irishreds]

7 hours ago, Fiale said:

 

That's not common is it ? Seems a very poor indictment of what our coaching setup can offer. I am not sure how ready for Championship coaching new coaches is (is it a long learning curve or something you can just hit the ground with running) but all three of our coaches have just 3 years experience. It seems painfully little when they are responsible for a mutli million pound product, would any other industry put someone (or a team)  with so little experience (just 3 years) in charge of producing results.

It certainly wouldn't happen at Hargreaves Lansdown.

 

 

[Bar BS3]

13 hours ago, MarkRed! said:

It was not SC that left us short but the club. He inherited a small squad in the first place. Whats the point buying up players who have arguably not actually improved us. 

You don't think we've improved since Cotts was in charge..? Seriously..?!

[MarkRed!]

16 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

You don't think we've improved since Cotts was in charge..? Seriously..?!

Nope. The football being played is dire and more £ is being spent than was ever afforded to SC.

[Bar BS3]

2 minutes ago, MarkRed! said:

Nope. The football being played is dire and more £ is being spent than was ever afforded to SC.

I don't think it's dire. Of course we get some frustrating games, like Saturday. 

Under SC we heading down, without any sign of recovery. We've survived, then repeated and now sit mid table. 

I loved SC's time here, but we wouldn't be sat mid table in the Championship if he'd not been replaced.