Awful

[Nogbad the Bad]

3 hours ago, wookey said:

Lee Johnson's performance as a Football Manager is defined by long winning runs and longer losing runs that he suffers every season.

What is the reason for this?

It is clear that once he loses a couple of games he has no idea on how to turn things around and start winning again.

So how do the long winning runs happen?

I suspect Johnson has no idea either but I believe that a mixture of good players playing as a team take over,  good luck sustains the run and no Football Manager is needed. 

As you say, these miserable losing runs have occurred in every single season of LJ's managerial career.

Even when we are winning, and winning well, he knows one is coming, the fans know one is coming, even the players must be aware of what's around the corner.

When he loses a couple of games, a type of panic sets in, 'here we go again', he desperately tinkers personnel and tactics, and a long miserable run of performances and results becomes an inevitable self fulfilling prophesy.

We just have to accept it and enjoy the good times - which can be very good - and prepare for anti climax, because LJ's managerial history shows this is a set pattern and it seems we will never have a consistent season, without a long period of disappointment and depression, under LJ's management.

[cidered abroad]

5 hours ago, Redmycolour said:

One bloke in South Stand where I sit thinks Johnson is our messiur, gods gift,

Only one Messiah? 

[cidered abroad]

4 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Agree mate, and my post probably doesn't give the coaching staff credit. During that purple patch everything was working well, the press was as good as I've seen and they had Been coached perfectly, baffles me as to what has happened recently. As I said , the difference is massive, night and day! The movement, passing and energy which throughout the side was brilliant and a credit to the staff , has all but disappeared. The sentence I highlighted is a major factor.
Not sure there is an easy fix. Some might say get rid of Johnson and start again , but that's not going to happen. We have to suck it up, enjoy the ride and hope he learns. I think we will be almost starting again during the summer anyway, as I think we will lose a part of the core of the team.

In some ways we have to start again. We need to reconstruct our personnel and tactics because we've totally lost the plot. 

Our defence is now resembling a colander, midfield is slow and seemingly unable to protect the back four or create openings for strikers. 

In general I think our strikers have done reasonably OK considering the scraps they've had to feed on. 

[Natchfever]

Some posters on here (andLJ) will blame the players for underperforming. Some will say its a collective thing. Underperforming players here get moved on (usually at a loss but hey ho) yet the coaching staff get a free pass. A developing player who is inconsistent and makes mistakes would be sent out to a lower level to develop. City bring in someone unproven at league 1 level and some people wonder why we are patchy? Whether LJ will ever manage anyone better than city is open to question. What is surely not open to question is that SL brought him in too soon.SL will be determined to see LJ develop in maybe the most demanding league anywhere so get used to it but its one hell of a gamble.

We are awful currently and have been for months. Lets hope LJ develops some savvy and gets a squad together with a competitive and adaptable dna.

[cidered abroad]

3 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

As you say, these miserable losing runs have occurred in every single season of LJ's managerial career.

Even when we are winning, and winning well, he knows one is coming, the fans know one is coming, even the players must be aware of what's around the corner.

When he loses a couple of games, a type of panic sets in, 'here we go again', he desperately tinkers personnel and tactics, and a long miserable run of performances and results becomes an inevitable self fulfilling prophesy.

We just have to accept it and enjoy the good times - which can be very good - and prepare for anti climax, because LJ's managerial history shows this is a set pattern and it seems we will never have a consistent season, without a long period of disappointment and depression, under LJ's management.

So, Nogbad, we have to endure the boom and bust of Lee Johnson for evermore? 

Stupid way to run a football club! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Redmycolour said:

Yet the Bristol Rugby get promoted, oh yes decent manager, 

Completely different context, though yes a decent manager.

However, in that League, table topping and therefore promotion for Bristol basically a given from Day One. In no way a like for like comparison.

[Cowshed]

8 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Interestingly a conversation I had with one of the three coaches after Q&A session in Sept keeps coming back to me

Asked about the narrowing of the pitch he suggested it was a psychological thing for the players more than anything as last season they had lost the belief that they could press continually and that narrowing the pitch would help them believe they could

Has this lack of belief reoccurred ?

The whole thing is  interesting / intriguing at the moment (Unfortunately as a fan it’s also worrying) 

Just on one particular subject - The missing press

Im convinced that the lack of ability to press starts at the return of FD (Whose fitness/ athleticism is poor IMHO) and the loss of Bobby as our trigger / pinpoint of our press 

Our current inability to press or slow / halt opposition attacks is alarming and the difference in us when not regaining possession in the final third compared to having construct from our own third is obvious and inevitable

To my mind BR is exceptional in this role (So alert and quick to grab an opportunity and so high up the pitch, with an exceptional engine)  whereas FD and / or MD are the polar opposites

@Cowshed is clearly a real student (And active studying coach I’d guess) of the modern game and aspects of it and would give a far better assessment of this 

You are correct Bobby Reid was Bristol Citys trigger, and he is very good at this role. Famara is not of the same standard, which is to not say he can't e.g. V Wednesday or denigrate him as a player, but pressing does require athleticism, it is a learned ability and some players are simply going to be more able.

The changing of the shape of the team meant the high pressing style has largely been abandoned for months.

I would suggest the idea of pressing high should be totally abandoned if Citys shape, tactics and current personnel are the future. Modern high pressing normally relates to high lines starting with the Keeper, controlling space behind the defence playing high in synergy with a midfield playing high and then the top 2 or 1-1. Little space is allowed between these lines as they move in unison. Frank Fielding barely leaves his box. Famara has been mentioned. Passing ... The more the team passes long the more that shape is stretched -= vulnerable. High presses and high lines are played often by short passing teams remaining compact and connected to the possession if lost and thus in frequent closer proximity to the ball they want. ... There are many variants but this post would turn into thousands of words. 

City may, and that is may do better to drop off into the second third getting goal side, get narrow and compact let the opposition have it, screen and slide blocking passing options and once the ball and opposition reach the practiced trigger then proactively press the ball.  This depth and denying of space could be what they have been attempting to work towards, but shape and tactics alter frequently and like most things fluency takes time and consistency.

[sglosbcfc]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Completely different context, though yes a decent manager.

However, in that League, table topping and therefore promotion for Bristol basically a given from Day One. In no way a like for like comparison.

Exactly, Bristol are by far the biggest club in that division. It is like Manchester United being in League One. Where as we are arguably the 12th-16th biggest club in the Championship.

[BobBobSuperBob]

18 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

You are correct Bobby Reid was Bristol Citys trigger, and he is very good at this role. Famara is not of the same standard, which is to not say he can't e.g. V Wednesday or denigrate him as a player, but pressing does require athleticism, it is a learned ability and some players are simply going to be more able.

The changing of the shape of the team meant the high pressing style has largely been abandoned for months.

I would suggest the idea of pressing high should be totally abandoned if Citys shape, tactics and current personnel are the future. Modern high pressing normally relates to high lines starting with the Keeper, controlling space behind the defence playing high in synergy with a midfield playing high and then the top 2 or 1-1. Little space is allowed between these lines as they move in unison. Frank Fielding barely leaves his box. Famara has been mentioned. Passing ... The more the team passes long the more that shape is stretched -= vulnerable. High presses and high lines are played often by short passing teams remaining compact and connected to the possession if lost and thus in frequent closer proximity to the ball they want. ... There are many variants but this post would turn into thousands of words. 

City may, and that is may do better to drop off into the second third getting goal side, get narrow and compact let the opposition have it, screen and slide blocking passing options and once the ball and opposition reach the practiced trigger then proactively press the ball.  This depth and denying of space could be what they have been attempting to work towards, but shape and tactics alter frequently and like most things fluency takes time and consistency.

Thankyou

An interesting read and thoughts

[What the ????]

Naming and shaming by L J is not the answer,no wonder they do not appear to play for him. It has been Proven that today's modern player (prima donnas) need love and nurturing to get the best out of them. A poor run often initiates a public bank g of his perpetrators, even his trusted few appear to have had enough. Negativity at the top is nieve on his part. Player's blamed even if they do not warrant it. Until he begins to look at his own failings we are not going to achieve anything.

[What the ????]

Sorry it should read ...

A public attack on his perpetrators.

[Cowshed]

22 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Agree mate, and my post probably doesn't give the coaching staff credit. During that purple patch everything was working well, the press was as good as I've seen and they had Been coached perfectly, baffles me as to what has happened recently. 

This is not a silly question. How fast can you run twenty metres in the past or now? No need to answer. How fast do the players do it? No need to answer that either they will all have differing speeds and some will be quicker at accelerating than others, and be more adept at turning faster etc.

Pressing to be effective means the first defender has to be arriving to press the ball in seconds. People who have studied this metrically  think the timescale should be around two and half seconds for the first defender and second defender/defenders five seconds to be the most effective.

The team also has to be disciplined, organized with balance, have a collective defending technique, recognise when and when to not, it requires a lot of practice and preparation. It does not just happen.

What happens to Bristol City high press when the team is changed, tactics changed and the ball frequently hit longer altering pressing distances (more than five, ten. twenty metres) and team shape? Pressing is related to multiple variables to work fluently. Remove an element and It ceases to work, or has to be significantly altered and worked upon.

Lee Johnson and his team coached the team brilliantly. Mr Johnson then decided to do something different. Nothing baffling about it.

[Big C]

I think Its bad news for the English game, we're not creative enough we're not positive enough, we'll go on getting bad results

[RobintheRed Red]

On 15/04/2018 at 19:31, What the ???? said:

Naming and shaming by L J is not the answer,no wonder they do not appear to play for him. It has been Proven that today's modern player (prima donnas) need love and nurturing to get the best out of them. A poor run often initiates a public bank g of his perpetrators, even his trusted few appear to have had enough. Negativity at the top is nieve on his part. Player's blamed even if they do not warrant it. Until he begins to look at his own failings we are not going to achieve anything.

spot on

[Davefevs]

On 14/04/2018 at 17:20, JonDolman said:

As soon as he brought off Kelly I knew that would be it, no playoffs. We looked comfortable defending, so why change the defence? Bring on O'Dowda for Diedhiou, and then we have someone with pace to hit them on the break. We had the ball in good positions a few times at 1-1 and the moves broke down because we didn't have someone with pace to pass it through to. Why use all our subs so early? Johnson seems to think the only way to force a goal is to make attacking subs. We could easily have nicked a 2-1 win if we had kept defending well with Kelly at left back. 

Also would a draw have been the worst result?  

City on 66 points, Boro on 67, and us still in touch....just.  Live to fight another day?  Still have hope that 9 points would probably do it.  

However us on 65, Boro on 69, plus the others now above us means 9 points won’t do it.  Mathematically yes, but you are relying on draws where both sides drop points.

Got to take what you’ve got.  It was a time to go 460, 451, crowd the midfield and possibly spring a breakaway.  Take any sting / head of steam out of Boro.

 

[Davefevs]

On 15/04/2018 at 19:22, BobBobSuperBob said:

Thankyou

An interesting read and thoughts

Bob, it’s why I want a quick CB so that we can play a higher line.  In fact I want more pace all over the pitch.  

I accept @Cowshed‘s comment re the keeper (sweeper), as that sets the tone.  Good to understand that short passing keeps you close to the ball (and in shape) when you lose it...hadn’t appreciated that.

Last season Garry Birtles said that LJ wants 35 yards max between back four and strikers, but they were more like 50-55....too far.

[Nogbad the Bad]

On 15/04/2018 at 16:44, cidered abroad said:

So, Nogbad, we have to endure the boom and bust of Lee Johnson for evermore? 

Stupid way to run a football club! 

In football terms quite possibly imo.

It seems to me LJ was chosen partly with the Lansdown dynasty, and succession, in mind. SL's plan will be to pass on the BCFC baton to JL, and perhaps in the not too distant future.

SL gets on well with LJ, and we know JL is a long term friend, about the same age, so LJ would be an ideal, comfortable, and non antagonistic coach for JL to inherit when SL hands over the reins.

The vision may be for JL and LJ to mature together while providing stability for the club in the hope a golden season will play out at some stage where everything comes together - whether mysteriously, or by design doesn't matter - and City get promoted. 

There is no huge pressure on LJ to achieve promotion and it may take 10 years, or more, so imo. it's quite possible LJ will go on to become City's longest serving ever manager.

Will we see 'boom and bust' under LJ every season? No reason to think not, as it's a set pattern every season of his managerial career. However the 'boom' times under LJ can be extraordinarily good, so maybe best just to enjoy them while not getting carried away, and accepting disappointment and anti climax is always likely. If we become a stable and competitive Championship club - at least in terms of finishing positions, if not consistent performances - perhaps there are worse potential scenarios for the club and as long as we stay up there is always still the possibility of that golden season.

Either way, what seems certain after last season is however disappointed and disgruntled fans may become during the agonising extended bad runs, LJ is here for the long term.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Also would a draw have been the worst result?  

City on 66 points, Boro on 67, and us still in touch....just.  Live to fight another day?  Still have hope that 9 points would probably do it.  

However us on 65, Boro on 69, plus the others now above us means 9 points won’t do it.  Mathematically yes, but you are relying on draws where both sides drop points.

Got to take what you’ve got.  It was a time to go 460, 451, crowd the midfield and possibly spring a breakaway.  Take any sting / head of steam out of Boro.

 

Would definitely have taken a point- would have been all to play for then!

Bit more pragmatism, and we would have got draws IMO v Bolton and Norwich- just to keep it ticking over and beat Sunderland too.

[Cowshed]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Bob, it’s why I want a quick CB so that we can play a higher line.  In fact I want more pace all over the pitch.  

I accept @Cowshed‘s comment re the keeper (sweeper), as that sets the tone.  Good to understand that short passing keeps you close to the ball (and in shape) when you lose it...hadn’t appreciated that.

Last season Garry Birtles said that LJ wants 35 yards max between back four and strikers, but they were more like 50-55....too far.

If a centre back has the ability to carry the ball out into midfield this creates overloads. It also will allow players to play higher and wider again as the centre back acts as a pivot repositioning play. 

The Keeper at this point is doing nothing. 

If the Keeper steps up outside of his box the formation in possession becomes one of eleven outfield players. The Keeper becomes a sweeper, acting as an additional outlet to reset possessio with the two CB's creating a formation of 1- 2 (3) - 6 - 2 which is fundamentally 4-4-2. 

Football at is zenith sees this regularly. It does requite people to reframe how they think about defending players and goal keeping and in particular the benefit of technique versus less abled players who are strong / fast. / stop shots.

Its a bit of a leap for championship team perhaps but having a Keeper who plays outside of his box and with good distribution skills opens a world of tactical possibility for Bristol City. People may not realise that pressing high is related to the ability of the Keeper to give his team mates confidence to venture as far as they are comfortable away from their goal. The Keeper there has to be assisting to control space as well.

This Keeper also helps create that 35 yards as the defence continually push up closer to the midfield, who are close to the forward/forwards ... The defence generally will not do this to/past the half way line if the Keeper does not leave his box to mind the space the defenders leave. 

[spudski]

17 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

If a centre back has the ability to carry the ball out into midfield this creates overloads. It also will allow players to play higher and wider again as the centre back acts as a pivot repositioning play. 

The Keeper at this point is doing nothing. 

If the Keeper steps up outside of his box the formation in possession becomes one of eleven outfield players. The Keeper becomes a sweeper, acting as an additional outlet to reset possessio with the two CB's creating a formation of 1- 2 (3) - 6 - 2 which is fundamentally 4-4-2. 

Football at is zenith sees this regularly. It does requite people to reframe how they think about defending players and goal keeping and in particular the benefit of technique versus less abled players who are strong / fast. / stop shots.

Its a bit of a leap for championship team perhaps but having a Keeper who plays outside of his box and with good distribution skills opens a world of tactical possibility for Bristol City. People may not realise that pressing high also related to the ability of the Keeper to give his team mates confidence to venture as far as they are comfortable away from their goal. The Keeper there has to be assisting to control space as well.

This Keeper also helps create that 35 yards as the defence continually push up closer to the midfield, who are close to the forward/forwards ... The defence generally will not do this to/past the half way line if the Keeper does not leave his box to mind the space the defenders leave. 

What you are saying is quite correct.

However...finding GK's in this country that have the technical ability to play as a good quality Championship 'sweeper' are pretty much nil.

Then take into the fact the quality of defenders that are technically good enough to receive a pass from him under pressure...then you have to start looking abroad or into the Prem.

We saw it with Geifer...he was used to playing football from the back....obviously used to doing that at Munich.

However...he would lay a pass off to the full backs who would immediately come under pressure and not be able to deal with it.

Hegeler can play out from the back...we've seen this. But is he good enough as a solid Championship first pick CB over a season?

Finding a balance is hard in this league.

I'd love to see the football we at are talking about...but under intense pressure at this level, we'd have to be looking at players outside of our budget imo.

[Cowshed]

13 minutes ago, spudski said:

What you are saying is quite correct.

However...finding GK's in this country that have the technical ability to play as a good quality Championship 'sweeper' are pretty much nil.

Then take into the fact the quality of defenders that are technically good enough to receive a pass from him under pressure...then you have to start looking abroad or into the Prem.

We saw it with Geifer...he was used to playing football from the back....obviously used to doing that at Munich.

However...he would lay a pass off to the full backs who would immediately come under pressure and not be able to deal with it.

Hegeler can play out from the back...we've seen this. But is he good enough as a solid Championship first pick CB over a season?

Finding a balance is hard in this league.

I'd love to see the football we at are talking about...but under intense pressure at this level, we'd have to be looking at players outside of our budget imo.

The above is about possibility. Some is pragmatic.

Fulham have two Keepers who can position themselves outside of the box and act as a low lying pivot. Its more than a marginal gain. It opens a mass of tactical possibility. 

There have been Keepers at this level who broke up attacks outside of the box - Julian Speroni. 

 

 

 

[spudski]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The above is about possibility. Some is pragmatic.

Fulham have two Keepers who can position themselves outside of the box and act as a low lying pivot. Its more than a marginal gain. It opens a mass of tactical possibility. 

 

It is one of my biggest bugbears with keepers.

Stopping shots and commanding a box is one thing...but I'm really disappointed with the quality of basic kicking and passing skills by some Keepers in this leagues, including FF.

It's is beyond dire...and something as a manager would do my head in.

How is it possible to be a professional footballer at this level and have such poor technical football qualities?

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

It is one of my biggest bugbears with keepers.

Stopping shots and commanding a box is one thing...but I'm really disappointed with the quality of basic kicking and passing skills by some Keepers in this leagues, including FF.

It's is beyond dire...and something as a manager would do my head in.

How is it possible to be a professional footballer at this level and have such poor technical football qualities?

Its what Managers want first isn't it? Klub foot can go in goal if you are not going to play through the thirds etc.

Bristol City? What is the future? A Keeper locked into his box taking no part in the overwhelming majority of the game making the odd save then booting the ball skywards or something else? 

How is it possible to be a professional footballer at this level and have such poor technical football qualities? Because we are catching up, and in the main struggle with the idea of a goal keeper not being good at what is two thirds of their game can't be that good a goal keeper.

 

[Chivs]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Its what Managers want first isn't it? Klub foot can go in goal if you are not going to play through the thirds etc.

Bristol City? What is the future? A Keeper locked into his box taking no part in the overwhelming majority of the game making the odd save then booting the ball skywards or something else? 

How is it possible to be a professional footballer at this level and have such poor technical football qualities? Because we are catching up, and in the main struggle with the idea of a goal keeper not being good at what is two thirds of their game can't be that good a goal keeper.

 

And Lee Johnson is actively trying to address this area, and adopting the high press, with a footballing GK, you mention above.  Wouldn't you say?

[cidered abroad]

On 15/04/2018 at 19:31, What the ???? said:

Naming and shaming by L J is not the answer,no wonder they do not appear to play for him. It has been Proven that today's modern player (prima donnas) need love and nurturing to get the best out of them. A poor run often initiates a public bank g of his perpetrators, even his trusted few appear to have had enough. Negativity at the top is nieve on his part. Player's blamed even if they do not warrant it. Until he begins to look at his own failings we are not going to achieve anything.

A good manager in any industry and that includes football, does not chastise anyone publicly. It's just bad personnel management!

[ThreeWordCityNerd]

On 14/04/2018 at 17:24, ZiderEyed said:

It is funny how certain posters tend to appear on the forum immediately after a defeat. I've been on here a fair while and names I don't recognise always pop up during these slumps.

[Cowshed]

6 minutes ago, Chivs said:

 And Lee Johnson is actively trying to address this area, and adopting the high press, with a footballing GK, yo mention above.  Wouldn't you say?

I would say no.

Is he actively attempting to recruit a Keeper with better passing skills?

[Sixtyseconds]

22 minutes ago, Chivs said:

And Lee Johnson is actively trying to address this area, and adopting the high press, with a footballing GK, you mention above.  Wouldn't you say?

This a code for the Russians or summat?

[Chivs]

21 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I would say no.

Is he actively attempting to recruit a Keeper with better passing skills?

Yes.

[ZiderEyed]

2 minutes ago, Chivs said:

Yes.

Give us a name then.