Question

[JamesBCFC]

2 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

Lets not pretend LJ has not done plenty worth criticising. There have been some shameful on-pitch performances in his time here.

More good ones than bad.

[ZiderEyed]

14 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

More good ones than bad.

Okay.

Doesn't detract from the point though.

[JamesBCFC]

5 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Okay.

Doesn't detract from the point though.

There was a point?

No one was suggesting LJ was beyond criticism, yet you started with "Let's not pretend LJ hasn't done plenty worth criticising"

[ZiderEyed]

1 minute ago, JamesBCFC said:

There was a point?

No one was suggesting LJ was beyond criticism, yet you started with "Let's not pretend LJ hasn't done plenty worth criticising"

I read the OP as saying that. Perhaps incorrectly.

I don't see how your belief that he's done more good than bad on the pitch is a rebuttal.

I really cant be arsed with this so I'll leave it there.

[SStandUp]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Could you articulate further?

The line of work I'm in, I have regular contact/ communications with people at the very centre of the club. 

Im not willing to go any further with that. But I honestly only hear very good things about Lee Johnson. Ofcourse the results on the pitch come first. But he's doing good things and moving the club forward.

Its up to you if you choose to believe this. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

If we fail to progress this year (i.e. not finishing higher than last years league position), will people be going for Lee Johnsons throat? Or will they question the clubs ambition, regarding selling our key assets? 

What I can currently invisage, is us actually "struggling" in the lower half of the table, and no doubt this will not please fans....

Yep, if we’d have appointed Warnock we’d be in the premier league now with Flint and Reid in our squad....but we will not appoint proven, successful managers at championship level......Tinnion, G Johnson, Millen, McInnes, O’Driscoll, Cotterill, L Johnson....sad reading.....let’s plod along achieving nothing....

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

 

I just hope fans take this into account before shamefully abusing the manager. Who, by all accounts, is doing a fantastic job behind the scenes with the limitations he faces (e.g. Pathway infrastructure, club culture).

 

 

19 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

The line of work I'm in, I have regular contact/ communications with people at the very centre of the club. 

Im not willing to go any further with that. But I honestly only hear very good things about Lee Johnson. Ofcourse the results on the pitch come first. But he's doing good things and moving the club forward.

Its up to you if you choose to believe this. 

What would I choose to be believing?

You are implying there is a problem with the clubs pathway (academy?), infrastructure and club culture but those at the centre of the club who run that structure and create its culture are saying Lee Johnson is doing good things/a fantastic job.

Its a unclear what you are actually attempting to say.

[pillred]

4 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Some bloody good ones as well..!

I think in a nutshell that is the problem inconsistency. we're either fantastic or pants there seems to be no middle ground.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Monkeh said:

Villa invested big time and now take there place in the prem........ oh wait

Buying won’t get you promoted ether, the is a countless list of clubs proving that

You are forgetting Cardiff and didn't Fulham invest in the xmas window both went up

[Guest]

9 hours ago, hodge said:

Good to see Middlesborough's and Derby's investments last season paid off..... wait a minute

Cardiff, Fulham and Wolves invested wisely built squads of good players where are they now please ? although  Boro and Derby didn't go up as well (as every club cant in one season)but both finished in top six and they will both finish above us this season again without any doubt.

Our shrewd xmas window investments dropped us down to 11th so tell me again about investments not paying off.....even Villa were play off finishers

IMO our failure to bring in decent players in that window to add to what we had already cost us at least a play off finish we missed a golden chance to push on from our efforts before xmas. I think this peed off a few of our players it was certainly compounded by the imports we played in the team, it showed in the results. LJ had to play his choices so here we are.

Now some of our top players and backbone of our squad are sold and we start again, this will be repeated again and again until our mind-set changes.

Building is fine but don't keep knocking it down, stick with it add to it and finish it.

 

[chinapig]

8 hours ago, ciderwithtommy said:

Good question I think, but you kinda answered it yourself - did we underperform last year finishing 11th, as in your own words LJ had 2 of the best players in their positions available for pretty much every game. I think the answer is yes, therefore if we regress this year it is down to failure which forced the hand of our better players. That is LJ and co's fault, and they should be accountable. They have a huge job ahead this season, a real make or break. 

So those 'best players' had no responsibility for their own performances? Nice work if you can get it.

[Ivorguy]

42 minutes ago, Bri Stool City said:

Cardiff, Fulham and Wolves invested wisely built squads of good players where are they now please ? although  Boro and Derby didn't go up as well (as every club cant in one season)but both finished in top six and they will both finish above us this season again without any doubt.

Our shrewd xmas window investments dropped us down to 11th so tell me again about investments not paying off.....even Villa were play off finishers

IMO our failure to bring in decent players in that window to add to what we had already cost us at least a play off finish we missed a golden chance to push on from our efforts before xmas. I think this peed off a few of our players it was certainly compounded by the imports we played in the team, it showed in the results. LJ had to play his choices so here we are.

Now some of our top players and backbone of our squad are sold and we start again, this will be repeated again and again until our mind-set changes.

Building is fine but don't keep knocking it down, stick with it add to it and finish it.

 

Some on here are working themselves into a panic unnecessarily.

The facts are we have sold two first choice players out of a starting eleven.  One of those has already been replaced by someone that many on otib and beyond believe is an upgrade.  We are likely to replace the other before the season begins, but Fammy is potentially a 20 goal a season striker and Taylor has clear potential on his cv. 

This simply doesn't add up to meltdown, even was Bryan to leave we have an England young star in Kelly who could well prove to be a gem, as the club clearly believe if you read comments after his acceptance of new contract.

[chinapig]

One of the wiser things SL has said over the years was that we should not become so attached to players. The response to players leaving is more emotional than pragmatic.

And the fact that Kelly has U20 caps despite only having played a handful of Championship games and at a time when the quality of young England players is unusually high speaks volumes for his ability.

[SStandUp]

8 hours ago, Cowshed said:

 

What would I choose to be believing?

You are implying there is a problem with the clubs pathway (academy?), infrastructure and club culture but those at the centre of the club who run that structure and create its culture are saying Lee Johnson is doing good things/a fantastic job.

Its a unclear what you are actually attempting to say.

No what I meant was, he is transforming the pathway infrastructure and culture.

Sorry if that was confusing! 

[SStandUp]

1 hour ago, Bri Stool City said:

You are forgetting Cardiff and didn't Fulham invest in the xmas window both went up

Didn't Fulham bring in Mitrovic? And Cardiff bought Gary Madine for £9mill? 

[RedM]

26 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

Didn't Fulham bring in Mitrovic? And Cardiff bought Gary Madine for £9mill? 

He must mean apart from those two surely 

Granted Madine didn’t make the impact Mitrovic did but it was a statement of intent from Cardiff, may have urged their existing players to push on a bit if they thought they had competition.

No doubt about it we gambled and thankfully only loaned in players we cannot have possibly done any homework on, can you imagine if we had actually purchased either of them. What a season we would be facing now. 

[ciderwithtommy]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

So those 'best players' had no responsibility for their own performances? Nice work if you can get it.

That literally makes no sense. We had two of the best players based on performance last season in their positions, and we finished 11th. Your point would be valid if they had underperformed, which by and large they didn't. We are now seeing the result of an underperforming season as a whole, i.e. we did not get the most out of the players we had. Now other clubs are willing to pay big money knowing that our players can improve what they have. 

[chinapig]

11 minutes ago, ciderwithtommy said:

That literally makes no sense. We had two of the best players based on performance last season in their positions, and we finished 11th. Your point would be valid if they had underperformed, which by and large they didn't. We are now seeing the result of an underperforming season as a whole, i.e. we did not get the most out of the players we had. Now other clubs are willing to pay big money knowing that our players can improve what they have. 

Performances in the second half of the season were poor, though Red M has posted with some authority recently that this was down to players not being happy with the January window - which does not say a lot for their professionalism if true.

2 of the best players were part of a defence that shipped far too many goals. The head coach carries the can no doubt but players have responsibility for their personal performance once they are on the pitch.

Players in the modern game are rarely keen to hold their hand up it's true, though to his credit Flint was self critical after the defeat at - ironically - Boro.

[Leveller]

14 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

If we fail to progress this year (i.e. not finishing higher than last years league position), will people be going for Lee Johnsons throat? Or will they question the clubs ambition, regarding selling our key assets? 

What I can currently invisage, is us actually "struggling" in the lower half of the table, and no doubt this will not please fans. 

Sure, this is pure speculation, however if it were to become the case, I for one couldn't look past the board/ club for the failure to progress. No matter who you are, if you sell key assets such as Reid and Flint, arguably the best players at the club, and potentially one of the best players in their respectful positions in the league, you're going to struggle to progress. And I'm also anticipating Bryan to be added to this list.

I just hope fans take this into account before shamefully abusing the manager. Who, by all accounts, is doing a fantastic job behind the scenes with the limitations he faces (e.g. Pathway infrastructure, club culture).

Also may I add; I said "struggle" in the lowers half of the table. When actually, if you collate all the information and stats regarding the club in comparison to others clubs (attendances [specifically away], wage bill etc.), some would say finishing 11th last year was actually punching above our weight. Unfortunately, some fans think we are much bigger than we actually are, when you compare expectations to the things mentioned above.

Anyway, looking forward in many ways to the start of the season. I'm really not sure where we stand currently.

Cheers.

Going back to your original point, you seem to be implying a disconnect between the board and LJ over the transfer policy.

My feeling is that LJ and the board agree over the model we have - so that selling players when they attract big bids is acceptable to both. Obviously no manager wants to lose his best players per se, but I think he is savvy enough to be on board with the strategy. In fact this is a big factor in why he (rather than someone like Cotts) is here.

Unlike many fans, the club executives look happy to be playing a longer game and aiming for gradual progress rather than throwing big bucks at instant promotion. Which you prefer is a matter of personal choice.

[Jcolebristol]

2 hours ago, Bri Stool City said:

Cardiff, Fulham and Wolves invested wisely built squads of good players where are they now please ? although  Boro and Derby didn't go up as well (as every club cant in one season)but both finished in top six and they will both finish above us this season again without any doubt.

Our shrewd xmas window investments dropped us down to 11th so tell me again about investments not paying off.....even Villa were play off finishers

IMO our failure to bring in decent players in that window to add to what we had already cost us at least a play off finish we missed a golden chance to push on from our efforts before xmas. I think this peed off a few of our players it was certainly compounded by the imports we played in the team, it showed in the results. LJ had to play his choices so here we are.

Now some of our top players and backbone of our squad are sold and we start again, this will be repeated again and again until our mind-set changes.

Building is fine but don't keep knocking it down, stick with it add to it and finish it.

 

You say Boro & Derby will finish above us but if football was so easy to predict, then why didn’t Reading & Sheff Wed do better than us last season?

The season before, they had a cracking year - finished 3rd & 4th. I remember people saying that reading were nailed on to go up.

But the season just gone, they finish 15th & 20th. Both below us.

There certainly isnt a magic formula and I wouldn’t assume just yet that they’ll both finish above us.

Re the initial question - I won’t be going at LJs throat if we make progress that looks like:

- no 4+ losing streak (need to stop that LJ trend)

- 2/3 of the younger players stand up and become our new stars (I hope Brownhill & COD)

- we continue to play exciting football

- we get better at having a plan B in matches where that style doesn’t work

- we finish mid table with no concerns of relegation

I think that would be the perfect foundation for a solid promotion push then.

oh and if they could put  a good away form together that would be great - I fully plan to go to as many away matches as poss next season. Some of my best days recently were with the city - away to sheff Utd, Fulham, Man City & Brentford spring to mind!

[SStandUp]

3 minutes ago, Leveller said:

Going back to your original point, you seem to be implying a disconnect between the board and LJ over the transfer policy.

My feeling is that LJ and the board agree over the model we have - so that selling players when they attract big bids is acceptable to both. Obviously no manager wants to lose his best players per se, but I think he is savvy enough to be on board with the strategy. In fact this is a big factor in why he (rather than someone like Cotts) is here.

Unlike many fans, the club executives look happy to be playing a longer game and aiming for gradual progress rather than throwing big bucks at instant promotion. Which you prefer is a matter of personal choice.

Yeh I agree with this. And I wasn't necessarily implying LJ is not on board with our recruitment policy. 

Despite this, it still makes it hard to progress when we sell our best. And I wondered how many would consider this before calling for Johnsons head. 

A lot of fans dislike Johnson, and are literally waiting for us to fail to voice this. So I'd imagine a lot wouldn't consider these facts!

[Leveller]

3 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

Yeh I agree with this. And I wasn't necessarily implying LJ is not on board with our recruitment policy. 

Despite this, it still makes it hard to progress when we sell our best. And I wondered how many would consider this before calling for Johnsons head. 

A lot of fans dislike Johnson, and are literally waiting for us to fail to voice this. So I'd imagine a lot wouldn't consider these facts!

True. I’ve always been of the opinion that we should try to be very stable and keep a manager  in place for years. Whether LJ should be that man remains open to question, but for me he is still in credit, looking at the big picture.

[old_eastender]

14 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

Lets not pretend LJ has not done plenty worth criticising. There have been some shameful on-pitch performances in his time here.

 

14 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

Wasn't really the question. 

In fact, has no relevance at all. 

It wasn't a Johnson in/ out post. A genuine question about how we are meant to progress whilst selling star players. Whoever the manager is, make's their life a whole lot harder, surely? 

It has MASSIVE relevance, do you think we would have selling Flint, Reid & Joe if we had gone up?  I look at Cardiff and that could so easily have been us, if only LJ had not totally lost the plot in the second half of the season.

As it is, it was inevitable they would go if good offers came in. At least we do seem to be holding out for decent money, and have quickly looked to replace Flint with Webster. I expect other replacements to come in too, and LJ will have had a big say in who they are.

So for me if no improvement on last year's 11th place, no excuses accepted that it was down to who we sold, it will be down to who we bought in and whether LJ can learn from past mistakes (history suggests not). 

 

[SStandUp]

37 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

 

It has MASSIVE relevance, do you think we would have selling Flint, Reid & Joe if we had gone up?  I look at Cardiff and that could so easily have been us, if only LJ had not totally lost the plot in the second half of the season.

As it is, it was inevitable they would go if good offers came in. At least we do seem to be holding out for decent money, and have quickly looked to replace Flint with Webster. I expect other replacements to come in too, and LJ will have had a big say in who they are.

So for me if no improvement on last year's 11th place, no excuses accepted that it was down to who we sold, it will be down to who we bought in and whether LJ can learn from past mistakes (history suggests not). 

 

The first half of the season, we all saw what is in Lee Johnsons head. And we were all loving it. "The best football I've seen in years" or something like that. 

Do you really believe the message from Johnson and co changed? I don't. I believe players should take a portion of the blame for such a dip in individual performances. 

Having said that, we had 7 first team players out at one time and we lost momentum. And unfortunately we just couldn't regain it.

Furthermore we showed no intent in the January transfer window because we gambled the returning first team players would have the impact we were lacking. They didn't, and here we go.

It would be very short sighted to not recognise a number of variables within last season, before piling all the blame at Johnsons feet. 

It just depends what side of the fence your on, if you dislike him then ofcourse you'll blame him solely. If you like him, then you'll take into account other variables. 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Selling all 3 were the right moves. Magnússon not good enough, flint 

How are we knocking it down? We had to sell Reid, surely you agree with that. Flint was worth selling imo too, because he has wanted to leave for a while now and more importantly he doesn't suit a passing game, that's why Korey and pack have to constantly come far too deep to collect the ball. And I can't see us getting any more than 7 in any other without, plus a perfect replacement who actually suits a passing out the back game was available.

You know he’s wanted to leave for a while now do you ?

As for passing - maybe @Cowshedwill be able to assist with the passing stats he shared re Flint

Webster may prove a better passer than Flint , but open your eyes , if that was my main concern Wright or Baker would be out first in terms of passing ability and most other elements

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

15 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Imo it was pretty clear flint wanted out last season as he was dropped from the team. As for playing a passing game out the back, flint not very good at it. Decent at long passes, but that is different to what i am talking about. 

Think your whims on both parts are wrong

@Cowshed will correct me if Im wrong about Flints passing stats

 

Flint wasn’t Glen Hoddle but  a much much better ‘ footballler ‘ than that of the myth built up by some on here and better on the ball than either Baker or Wright , by some margin

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

His passing stats are probably good, but doesn't make him good at bringing the ball out of defence. I don't really pay much attention to stats as I feel they can be misleading. 

Nor do I

I watch individuals carefully

You realise that Webster’s strengths are said to be a decentish passer rather than somebody who will bring the ball out a la Rio Ferdinand (which you’re saying Flint couldn’t do ) (And wouldn’t be his no 1 skill) ?

[BobBobSuperBob]

11 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

When I have seen Webster he has been very good at bringing the ball out. I'm just saying flint is not capable of doing that. Flint's long range passing is actually quite good. But being able to dribble the ball out of defence is a completely different skill that I haven't seen flint manage to do. I don't think many fans would describe flint as a technically gifted defender in terms of control and dribbling. But he always did a decent enough job at passing for his technical limitations. I think pulis and his way of playing is ideal for flint.

I can’t claim to have any deep knowledge of Webster but doing a load of reading up on him and Ipswich fans assessments I think you may be dissapointed if you think he may be a dribbling centre back 

My understanding is he will step out and look to find a pass and I would expect him to look comfortable doing so but I can recall numerous occasions where Flint did so when invited

Flints slightly  ‘ungainly’  Looking movement (down to his height / size / frame ) skewed people’s perception of him IMHO

As I said , No Hoddle but improved year on year and his footballing skills underestimated or recognised

People also go on about him being 28/29 and having seen his best years

Because he came into football late he was behind in terms of the lessons of the tricks and trades of the pro game

He started to pick up and improve quickly , better year on year and will be a better player next season than he was last or the one before

Though quick , doesn’t  rely on pace and I would suggest will be playing well into his mid 30s , and as I’ve explained above , as he learns a little more each season his peak yet to come (IMHO)

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Think your whims on both parts are wrong

@Cowshed will correct me if Im wrong about Flints passing stats

 

Flint wasn’t Glen Hoddle but  a much much better ‘ footballler ‘ than that of the myth built up by some on here and better on the ball than either Baker or Wright , by some margin

 

Bang on Bob. Aden Flint has a passing accuracy of 72% from an average passing length of 23m. That is not scruffy at all. 

To put it into perspective last season pass masters were Fulham with CB averages at 85% from passing average distances of 17.5m. 

Aden Flint makes more long passes and I would suggest his passing is more challenging due to the team not providing easy options and angles, so his % is lower, not suggesting he would fit a Fulham but he is sound on the ball. 

[Cowshed]

6 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

No what I meant was, he is transforming the pathway infrastructure and culture.

Sorry if that was confusing! 

And how is this being done? 

It is a serious question. The academy ends at the academy. Other clubs run networks of development centres which feed into their pathways and also spreads the club philosophy wider. BCFC do not do this.

Bristol City have a Cat 2 academy. - Like most of the division. It is not a disadvantage.

Culture? Is the Culture within the academy not one that Mr Johnson desires, is there a disconnect in playing style?