Question

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

18 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Why would we stoop so low?

Subtle I like it.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

17 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Bang on Bob. Aden Flint has a passing accuracy of 72% from an average passing length of 23m. That is not scruffy at all. 

To put it into perspective last season pass masters were Fulham with CB averages at 85% from passing average distances of 17.5m. 

Aden Flint makes more long passes and I would suggest his passing is more challenging due to the team not providing easy options and angles, so his % is lower, not suggesting he would fit a Fulham but he is sound on the ball. 

Thank you 

I knew you’d have the stats and analysis / conclusion from those stats 

Think a few should have watched him more closely

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Thank you 

I knew you’d have the stats and analysis / conclusion from those stats 

Think a few should have watched him more closely

People sometimes see what they expect to see. They see a big centre half, they expect him not to be able to pass so they don't notice that he can.

He, no doubt with coaching, hugely improved his game over time and deserves credit for it.

As to Webster, he seems more likely to carry the ball judging by this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3791857/The-Secret-Scout-Ipswich-Town-central-defender-Adam-Webster-standout-passer-s-good-pressure.html

[Leveller]

20 minutes ago, chinapig said:

People sometimes see what they expect to see. They see a big centre half, they expect him not to be able to pass so they don't notice that he can.

He, no doubt with coaching, hugely improved his game over time and deserves credit for it.

As to Webster, he seems more likely to carry the ball judging by this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3791857/The-Secret-Scout-Ipswich-Town-central-defender-Adam-Webster-standout-passer-s-good-pressure.html

Flint, in my view, was also not too shabby in carrying the ball out at his feet, at fair speed.

[SStandUp]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

And how is this being done? 

It is a serious question. The academy ends at the academy. Other clubs run networks of development centres which feed into their pathways and also spreads the club philosophy wider. BCFC do not do this.

Bristol City have a Cat 2 academy. - Like most of the division. It is not a disadvantage.

Culture? Is the Culture within the academy not one that Mr Johnson desires, is there a disconnect in playing style? 

Yes they do! 

[Lack of Action Man]

20 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

If we fail to progress this year (i.e. not finishing higher than last years league position), will people be going for Lee Johnsons throat? Or will they question the clubs ambition, regarding selling our key assets?

I don't think the club, or rather - the board of directors, can be criticized too much - the "master-plan" of recruiting young and selling at a high price harks back to the infamous "five pillars" plan for the club. As such, whilst we, as fans, may develop attachments to the players, I think we all have to be realistic that should we unearth a diamond in the rough then they are always on the market - provided the right bidder comes along.

For me, what would be more concerning is an inability to continue this plan - which we have already seen evidence of with the current CEO, head coach, and scouting set-up. We have squandered far too much money on young players who simply aren't up to the job or don't suit our style of play. If we continue to do this, then serious questions have to be asked of our assessments of potential new recuits. Perhaps we put too much emphasis on their "DNA" and not enough on their feet.

[Cowshed]

5 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

Yes they do! 

 Could you explain where and what Bristol City network of development centres is?

Culture?

[SStandUp]

3 hours ago, Cowshed said:

 Could you explain where and what Bristol City network of development centres is?

Culture?

Not necessarily Bristol City branded centres, but instead strong links with schools and sourrounding counties. The development centres you speak of are very much gimmicks, often money spinners. However, I know Southampton have a very good regional centre in Bath, which we are competing with. And by all accounts, our status against this rival is forever improving. 

I can't give specifics on the changes he has made to culture. Because I haven't experienced it myself. But I'm told the culture and club environment has improved considerably since Johnsons arrival. "The feeling around the club is much better and much more professional", would be a quote. 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, ForeverRes said:

Not necessarily Bristol City branded centres, but instead strong links with schools and sourrounding counties. The development centres you speak of are very much gimmicks, often money spinners. However, I know Southampton have a very good regional centre in Bath, which we are competing with. And by all accounts, our status against this rival is forever improving. 

I can't give specifics on the changes he has made to culture. Because I haven't experienced it myself. But I'm told the culture and club environment has improved considerably since Johnsons arrival. "The feeling around the club is much better and much more professional", would be a quote. 

So its yes they don't Bristol City do not run development centres. Not totally true City do have associated coaching schools for foundation level kids.

Bristol City kids futsal sides are too many degrees a quasi development centre formerly FD1.

Development centres like Exeter's or Readings networks are not gimmicks or money spinners. They hardly make large sums of money and are affordable. They simply are not gimmicks which is why so many Clubs have them. I am supportive of academies but they are illogical. It is impossible to know if a kid at seven, eight, nine, ten  … will ever be a Professional football player. Academies focus on a % of a % the supposed elite. Mathematically that makes little sense  as it is again illogical to ignore 99.9% of kids playing football. Development centres create bridges between FC's and Junior football the greater populace by offering quality coaching adhering to the clubs philosophy and coaching syllabus for numbers of potential players far beyond what an academy can cater for.  

Could you again articulate what these string links are schools and surrounding counties? The satellite centres which were being ran by the Community trust and part formerly of the pathway have been shut. Schools are being directed towards partnerships these strong links really are a money spinner and can cost thousands of pounds. These partnerships are being ignored by Bristol's biggest junior clubs due to being too expensive, not value for money and those running them have been informed in person by JFC's in a dressing down.

I would also point out that those involved in coaching in these partnerships frequently are not qualified to the level of the level of the development centres you describe as gimmicks … I am as qualified as most of the people BCFC send out to coach at Junior clubs and schools. I know some of these individuals, great people but focussed and coordinated to gain the greatest benefit socially, economically and for the benefit of BCFC's community and BCFC's player pathway the coaching is not. 

Bristol Citys coverage against rivals outside of Bristol is at best patchy. Exeter offer more opportunity in the South West for players outside of Bristol.

You did walk into that a little … If anything since Amy Kington left BCFC/the Community trust and she guided the academy to its accreditation links with the Community have been in decline. People from Bristol Sport have become involved and they do not have the skills and vision Amy had.

I was hoping that you were going to unveil that BCFC are about to pursue developing a regional coaching culture x playing style, technical skills coaching programmes, sharing of club philosophy and associated skills syllabus, support for grass root coaches leading to talent identification for the academy - That is a far a larger potential pathway and there are clubs in the South West doing it.

 

  

[SStandUp]

10 hours ago, Cowshed said:

So its yes they don't Bristol City do not run development centres. Not totally true City do have associated coaching schools for foundation level kids.

Bristol City kids futsal sides are too many degrees a quasi development centre formerly FD1.

Development centres like Exeter's or Readings networks are not gimmicks or money spinners. They hardly make large sums of money and are affordable. They simply are not gimmicks which is why so many Clubs have them. I am supportive of academies but they are illogical. It is impossible to know if a kid at seven, eight, nine, ten  … will ever be a Professional football player. Academies focus on a % of a % the supposed elite. Mathematically that makes little sense  as it is again illogical to ignore 99.9% of kids playing football. Development centres create bridges between FC's and Junior football the greater populace by offering quality coaching adhering to the clubs philosophy and coaching syllabus for numbers of potential players far beyond what an academy can cater for.  

Could you again articulate what these string links are schools and surrounding counties? The satellite centres which were being ran by the Community trust and part formerly of the pathway have been shut. Schools are being directed towards partnerships these strong links really are a money spinner and can cost thousands of pounds. These partnerships are being ignored by Bristol's biggest junior clubs due to being too expensive, not value for money and those running them have been informed in person by JFC's in a dressing down.

I would also point out that those involved in coaching in these partnerships frequently are not qualified to the level of the level of the development centres you describe as gimmicks … I am as qualified as most of the people BCFC send out to coach at Junior clubs and schools. I know some of these individuals, great people but focussed and coordinated to gain the greatest benefit socially, economically and for the benefit of BCFC's community and BCFC's player pathway the coaching is not. 

Bristol Citys coverage against rivals outside of Bristol is at best patchy. Exeter offer more opportunity in the South West for players outside of Bristol.

You did walk into that a little … If anything since Amy Kington left BCFC/the Community trust and she guided the academy to its accreditation links with the Community have been in decline. People from Bristol Sport have become involved and they do not have the skills and vision Amy had.

I was hoping that you were going to unveil that BCFC are about to pursue developing a regional coaching culture x playing style, technical skills coaching programmes, sharing of club philosophy and associated skills syllabus, support for grass root coaches leading to talent identification for the academy - That is a far a larger potential pathway and there are clubs in the South West doing it.

 

  

Sounds like you know a lot more than me, so not sure why you were asking questions?

I didn't give specifics in my original reply to you because I don't no them. I'm told Johnson is doing a good job at bridging the gap between the academy and club, which were almost being ran as separate entities. How this looks I'm not sure !

[Guest]

On ‎30‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 07:39, ForeverRes said:

Didn't Fulham bring in Mitrovic? And Cardiff bought Gary Madine for £9mill? 

and that's the difference between them and us....and why we are where we are (building for ummm oh yes the future) and they are where they are

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 hour ago, Bri Stool City said:

and that's the difference between them and us....and why we are where we are (building for ummm oh yes the future) and they are where they are

Well, Mitrovic (as has been stated many times) was only ever going to go to Fulham due to Jokanovic and if we had offered three times what they did he still would have. 

Would you have wanted us to spend £9m on Gary Madine? I suspect you are in a tiny minority if so.

[Red-Robbo]

On 29/06/2018 at 20:39, Monkeh said:

 

we sold flint and brought in Webster  who will be a much better player 

I seriously doubt he will. At least at first.

People seem to be excited because he's 6 years younger than Flint, however I note he's shorter, much more injury prone and has nowhere near the scoring record. I doubt he will have the inspiring presence of Flinty either - at least at first.

Players like Callum O'Dowda and Josh Brownhill have grown in confidence and ability as they stay here and establish themselves, but as new young players they took time to develop to that level - not least because they need to learn to fit in with new team-mates on and off the field. 

If the rumoured sales of Bryan and Pack go ahead then it seems to me that we are replacing players who have performed well and we now what they can do, with players who MIGHT perform well. It's a gamble. They could be great...........................  or they could be Ryan Kents.

 

[LondonBristolian]

My assumption is LJ shares responsibility for the sales rather than them being something that have happened without his permission. Don't forget he ewas the one who said a couple of months back the club were making tough decisions.

To be honest, I'm open-minded. Something had to change after last season. I've no idea what goes on behind closed doors at the club but know in workplaces things can often not be what they seen. LJ certainly made mistakes last season but there were also times when there seemed to be nothing wrong with the team he put out - and no real difference between three months earlier when we were playing well - but the team put in awful performances.  Millwall away was near enough our best line-up and an atrocious performance. It is impossible to know in those circumstances whether that is LJ telling the team the wrong things or the team not doing them.

On paper, there is no doubt we are currently weaker than last season. And it seems more players will leave and it follows it will take time for new players to bed in. We cannot permanently be in transition but maybe it is time the core of the 2013/2014 team moved on.

My feeling at the moment is next season we will start weaker than we have started the last two. If we can steadily pick up results and I can see what LJ is trying to do then I'll be okay with that - particularly if turns out we've finally solved the problem of the midseason slump. If we struggle then it will reach a point where the manager has to go. Ultimately this season has to be seen as a massive gamble. LJ and SL seem to believe changes are needed in order to take the club forward. Time will tell if they are right. 

[Cowshed]

4 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

Sounds like you know a lot more than me, so not sure why you were asking questions?

I didn't give specifics in my original reply to you because I don't no them. I'm told Johnson is doing a good job at bridging the gap between the academy and club, which were almost being ran as separate entities. How this looks I'm not sure !

Your posts piqued my interest because I coach kids at varying levels, have a family member playing in the academy system and because you were quite bold in your statements regarding the Pathway, and being in contact with people at the centre of the club. You maybe have been privy to detail on how the academy and associated coaching was to be improved short and long term.

I agree that the academy dependant on Manager/Head Coach can look as it is a separate entity. A point I would make is that at times as the XI's playing style fluxes the academy may not necessarily be preparing players for the future in the best possible manner. Last season academy and U teams had playing styles that were not mirroring the XI.

[SStandUp]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Your posts piqued my interest because I coach kids at varying levels, have a family member playing in the academy system and because you were quite bold in your statements regarding the Pathway, and being in contact with people at the centre of the club. You maybe have been privy to detail on how the academy and associated coaching was to be improved short and long term.

I agree that the academy dependant on Manager/Head Coach can look as it is a separate entity. A point I would make is that at times as the XI's playing style fluxes the academy may not necessarily be preparing players for the future in the best possible manner. Last season academy and U teams had playing styles that were not mirroring the XI.

I had been told the playing style from the 1st XI was starting to be replicated throughout the pathway.. this isn't always possible, as you're probably aware. But the philosophies were consistent! 

[Son of Fred]

On 30/06/2018 at 11:45, BobBobSuperBob said:

Think your whims on both parts are wrong

@Cowshed will correct me if Im wrong about Flints passing stats

 

Flint wasn’t Glen Hoddle but  a much much better ‘ footballler ‘ than that of the myth built up by some on here and better on the ball than either Baker or Wright , by some margin

 

My 'Mrs is better 'on the ball than Wright.

[BigAl&Toby]

On 29/06/2018 at 20:18, handsofclay said:

We have signed some other team's best defender and are looking to sign some other team's best player/top goalscorer. We are also looking to sign other decent players. I'd far rather they were on board, players who choose us and want to play for us than have the players who want away.

Question here though is why players want away in the first place.

I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes - like most of us on here. What intrigues me though is why those players who got us into the position we were in earlier this year had their heads turned.

My guess is either they thought they were at their peak and felt that they’d not repeat that again or - and I think this is more likely - they were unimpressed with the desire and ambition demonstrated by the club at that time.

Imagine the conversation.....

We’re determined to capitalise on our current position.

Really? Tell me more.

We’re going to bring in some new players to help keep the momentum going.

Great. Who are we signing.

Oh. Some chap called Diony. And Kent.

******* hell. I’m off.......

And the rest is history..............

[numbeast]

16 hours ago, Cowshed said:

So its yes they don't Bristol City do not run development centres. Not totally true City do have associated coaching schools for foundation level kids.

Bristol City kids futsal sides are too many degrees a quasi development centre formerly FD1.

Development centres like Exeter's or Readings networks are not gimmicks or money spinners. They hardly make large sums of money and are affordable. They simply are not gimmicks which is why so many Clubs have them. I am supportive of academies but they are illogical. It is impossible to know if a kid at seven, eight, nine, ten  … will ever be a Professional football player. Academies focus on a % of a % the supposed elite. Mathematically that makes little sense  as it is again illogical to ignore 99.9% of kids playing football. Development centres create bridges between FC's and Junior football the greater populace by offering quality coaching adhering to the clubs philosophy and coaching syllabus for numbers of potential players far beyond what an academy can cater for.  

Could you again articulate what these string links are schools and surrounding counties? The satellite centres which were being ran by the Community trust and part formerly of the pathway have been shut. Schools are being directed towards partnerships these strong links really are a money spinner and can cost thousands of pounds. These partnerships are being ignored by Bristol's biggest junior clubs due to being too expensive, not value for money and those running them have been informed in person by JFC's in a dressing down.

I would also point out that those involved in coaching in these partnerships frequently are not qualified to the level of the level of the development centres you describe as gimmicks … I am as qualified as most of the people BCFC send out to coach at Junior clubs and schools. I know some of these individuals, great people but focussed and coordinated to gain the greatest benefit socially, economically and for the benefit of BCFC's community and BCFC's player pathway the coaching is not. 

Bristol Citys coverage against rivals outside of Bristol is at best patchy. Exeter offer more opportunity in the South West for players outside of Bristol.

You did walk into that a little … If anything since Amy Kington left BCFC/the Community trust and she guided the academy to its accreditation links with the Community have been in decline. People from Bristol Sport have become involved and they do not have the skills and vision Amy had.

I was hoping that you were going to unveil that BCFC are about to pursue developing a regional coaching culture x playing style, technical skills coaching programmes, sharing of club philosophy and associated skills syllabus, support for grass root coaches leading to talent identification for the academy - That is a far a larger potential pathway and there are clubs in the South West doing it.

 

  

You mention Exeter, I have a little knowledge regarding one of their development teams. My son was approached when he was around 10 or 11 by a team called, I think,  DC United. He wasn't that enthusiastic at first until the guy explained their affiliation to Exeter. He played for them for a season, (he even played the gas and scored) but he missed playing with his mates who he'd play with since he was 7 or 8.

Just because we don't brand development team doesn't mean we don't have them. We have neglected local youth in the past hence Southamptons centre in Bath, but with a clearer pathway to the first team, along with the likes of Bobby Reid going on to play in the Premier league  there should be the hope of mopping up the best local kids for ourselves rather than S'ton.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

My assumption is LJ shares responsibility for the sales rather than them being something that have happened without his permission. Don't forget he ewas the one who said a couple of months back the club were making tough decisions.

To be honest, I'm open-minded. Something had to change after last season. I've no idea what goes on behind closed doors at the club but know in workplaces things can often not be what they seen. LJ certainly made mistakes last season but there were also times when there seemed to be nothing wrong with the team he put out - and no real difference between three months earlier when we were playing well - but the team put in awful performances.  Millwall away was near enough our best line-up and an atrocious performance. It is impossible to know in those circumstances whether that is LJ telling the team the wrong things or the team not doing them.

On paper, there is no doubt we are currently weaker than last season. And it seems more players will leave and it follows it will take time for new players to bed in. We cannot permanently be in transition but maybe it is time the core of the 2013/2014 team moved on.

My feeling at the moment is next season we will start weaker than we have started the last two. If we can steadily pick up results and I can see what LJ is trying to do then I'll be okay with that - particularly if turns out we've finally solved the problem of the midseason slump. If we struggle then it will reach a point where the manager has to go. Ultimately this season has to be seen as a massive gamble. LJ and SL seem to believe changes are needed in order to take the club forward. Time will tell if they are right. 

Sensible post.

My hope is that even if we have a weaker team, they’ll all be pushing that extra 5% to make us stronger as a unit.  It’s what the Preston’s do.

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, numbeast said:

You mention Exeter, I have a little knowledge regarding one of their development teams. My son was approached when he was around 10 or 11 by a team called, I think,  DC United. He wasn't that enthusiastic at first until the guy explained their affiliation to Exeter. He played for them for a season, (he even played the gas and scored) but he missed playing with his mates who he'd play with since he was 7 or 8.

Just because we don't brand development team doesn't mean we don't have them. We have neglected local youth in the past hence Southamptons centre in Bath, but with a clearer pathway to the first team, along with the likes of Bobby Reid going on to play in the Premier league  there should be the hope of mopping up the best local kids for ourselves rather than S'ton.

Bristol City are neglecting local youth football.

City have links to local clubs via scouts who coach in these clubs (as do other clubs), and keep in contact with BIC, NSDC, SGDC, No 1 football academy and are known to play them but then so are other Pro clubs.

Bristol City can only take x amount of players into the academy. There are many kids out there who could play in academies, have potential too, may have dropped out as it is not the right environment for them at this point, the late developers and on this goes … And these kids greatly outnumber the elite in academies and it is there that BCFC neglect local football. 

Southampton one of the best academies in Europe run development centres. Development centres like Bath which takes kids away from BCFC.

I can progress this theme further. BCFC have a academy philosophy how is this shared with local junior clubs to help create talent with the right technical, physical and football intelligence for BCFC? Where is the technical skill coaching for potential outside of the academy? Where is the coaching culture to promote the BCFC way (its playing style) in its community and region? What City really have is little to half arsed outside of the academy. 

The above are simple ways forward to ensure more talent ends up at BCFC.

[Monkeh]

14 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Bristol City are neglecting local youth football.

City have links to local clubs via scouts who coach in these clubs (as do other clubs), and keep in contact with BIC, NSDC, SGDC, No 1 football academy and are known to play them but then so are other Pro clubs.

Bristol City can only take x amount of players into the academy. There are many kids out there who could play in academies, have potential too, may have dropped out as it is not the right environment for them at this point, the late developers and on this goes … And these kids greatly outnumber the elite in academies and it is there that BCFC neglect local football. 

Southampton one of the best academies in Europe run development centres. Development centres like Bath which takes kids away from BCFC.

I can progress this theme further. BCFC have a academy philosophy how is this shared with local junior clubs to help create talent with the right technical, physical and football intelligence for BCFC? Where is the technical skill coaching for potential outside of the academy? Where is the coaching culture to promote the BCFC way (its playing style) in its community and region? What City really have is little to half arsed outside of the academy. 

The above are simple ways forward to ensure more talent ends up at BCFC.

problem with that is any decent talent that may end up at city can be taken off our hands for peanuts by a cat one academy and there is f all we can do about it,

which will explain the half arsed approach at the moment , and that will continue until we get a cat one academy wich will prevent the big boys cherry picking our youth players 

[Cowshed]

53 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

inproblem with that is any decent talent that may end up at city can be taken off our hands for peanuts by a cat one academy and there is f all we can do about it,

which will explain the half arsed approach at the moment , and that will continue until we get a cat one academy wich will prevent the big boys cherry picking our youth players 

Bristol's City geography means it does not have the same challenges Brentford faced leading to Brentford leaving the academy system behind.

Many of the above practices have a negligible cost / can make a profit. They are quite normal practices associated with clubs that have under CAT 1 status.

By doing the above the club fulfils socio economic roles and creates bridges between itself and its community and the potential players within. 

Bryan and Reid were surely decent talent. Bryan according to coaches was identified as top talented from an early age. These players were at BCFC for over a decade. By creating a regional coaching structure you increase the likelihood of getting more Bryans and Reid's, not lessen that probability. By creating bridges you create affinity and players more likely to stay around.

Bristol City academy works well. Obvious and simple improvement can be made to how talent is identified and fed into it. Exeter's coaching network and reach is wider than Bristol City's - That reach is talent identification.

By putting all focus on a parochial training facility which trains solely the supposed elite, and that is what Bristol City's academy is basic maths tells anybody that it is illogical that all talent can be within the academy system. Why not one excellent facility (it is) backed up by a network of regional coaching centres feeding into that facility at its zenith?  

A door in the West Country is left open by its biggest club.

 

 

[Monkeh]

43 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Bristol's City geography means it does not have the same challenges Brentford faced leading to Brentford leaving the academy system behind.

Many of the above practices have a negligible cost / can make a profit. They are quite normal practices associated with clubs that have under CAT 1 status.

By doing the above the club fulfils socio economic roles and creates bridges between itself and its community and the potential players within. 

Bryan and Reid were surely decent talent. Bryan according to coaches was identified as top talented from an early age. These players were at BCFC for over a decade. By creating a regional coaching structure you increase the likelihood of getting more Bryans and Reid's, not lessen that probability. By creating bridges you create affinity and players more likely to stay around.

Bristol City academy works well. Obvious and simple improvement can be made to how talent is identified and fed into it. Exeter's coaching network and reach is wider than Bristol City's - That reach is talent identification.

By putting all focus on a parochial training facility which trains solely the supposed elite, and that is what Bristol City's academy is basic maths tells anybody that it is illogical that all talent can be within the academy system. Why not one excellent facility (it is) backed up by a network of regional coaching centres feeding into that facility at its zenith?  

A door in the West Country is left open by its biggest club.

 

 

 but we've got plenty of good players coming through so it can't be as bad as you make out,

We've got an england under 20's international in Kelly,

Vyner, Morrell, coming on nicely,

[Cowshed]

11 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

 but we've got plenty of good players coming through so it can't be as bad as you make out,

We've got an england under 20's international in Kelly,

Vyner, Morrell, coming on nicely,

You are missing the point. Nowhere have I said the academy is doing badly. These players area justification that the academy works, is invaluable but clearly can be improved. My posts for a significant period have said the academies reach should be enlarged by looking outside of Bristol and BCFC being the destination of top talent of the region. By providing opportunity outside of the academy and wider Bristol City's contact with potential talent is increased massively. 

Increasing coaching contact with the community/region, creating that coaching culture and thus increasing potential does not necessitate having a Cat 1 academy.