Time to look at Lee in a positive light

[reddogkev]

Decided to start this thread now, on the back of two wins, as I'm hoping most of our negative feeling of the early part of the month has dispersed.  Looking at the league table today, with City 4 points off of the top spot and performing like a solid team, I feel extremely positive with LJ as the manager of City.  The guy's doing a quality job and is well on course to give City a solid top ten finish (if not higher).  He's not afraid to integrate youth players into the team / squad (something that has seldom been seen on this scale) and is proving himself as someone who coaches / develops players to improve their game.  Given time, I'm sure he'll have us fighting every step of the way for the Premier League.

Well done, Lee, keep up the bloody good job you are doing.

[Alessandro]

@reddogkev - you must have shares in tin hats!

[Whitchurch1966]

A new challenge he is going have to face is that pretty soon is that he will have a very strong squad as players come back from injury (unless we get get more), I think this will probably be a first for him while he has been here or anywhere else. It will be harder to bring the youngsters through and will also enable him to tinker even more than he usually does, not sure if that is a good or bad thing. In my opinion this will prove if he can manage at a higher level or not.

[PFree]

There's plenty of light when talking to him as he's so short

More seriously, all I want from a City team is a passionate, fully committed display every week and ideally where the team attacks with tempo - I have no problem losing or not going up providing they all put a committed shift in. All I see at the moment is sideways and backward passes, very slow tempo and a lot of boring, slow, possession football.

I have no problem with LJ but at times the current football is far too negative - he admitted himself last night that he didn't want to "go for it" in fear of losing? We are at home against a side second from the bottom - surely attack is the best form of defence? One man up front, at home, playing a relegation favourite - little structure, strange subs, need I go on?

When you think back to Jacki and Scott Murray in his prime, I couldn't wait to get to the Gate as it was great seeing them going past players with great skill, I just want players who attack and at least have a go..!

 

[MelksRed]

10 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Decided to start this thread now, on the back of two wins, as I'm hoping most of our negative feeling of the early part of the month has dispersed.  Looking at the league table today, with City 4 points off of the top spot and performing like a solid team, I feel extremely positive with LJ as the manager of City.  The guy's doing a quality job and is well on course to give City a solid top ten finish (if not higher).  He's not afraid to integrate youth players into the team / squad (something that has seldom been seen on this scale) and is proving himself as someone who coaches / develops players to improve their game.  Given time, I'm sure he'll have us fighting every step of the way for the Premier League.

Well done, Lee, keep up the bloody good job you are doing.

I agree with most of this; I would argue that we are not performing as a solid team. We have some serious issues (mainly the ability to capitalise on the opportunities that we generate) and our constant  use of players that are off the boil (Patto and Marlon for example). We are becoming extremely predictable (playing out from the back....usually up the left) and we have a standard procedure of going backwards. Last night we look our best surging forward and generating problems for opposition defences....the issue when we get there?...….no definite conversion is either open or guaranteed.

That said, to grind out wins despite not playing well does indeed suggest that we are becoming more resilient and that the defence is improving (although I am nervous each time an opposition team has either a corner or free kick). 

We are progressing yes.....but solid...that is questionable.

[mozo]

If we are a team with lots of problems, then the rest of this league has equal or more frailties. 

My only gripe is the Jekyll and Hyde nature of the performances.

But being a top half Champ team seemed not so long ago to be a pipe dream. 

We're not a sleeping giant anymore and we're beating big clubs. Credit to the gaffer.

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Doing a very good job. No one can argue with where we are in the league at the moment. 

Give it time Jon. Give it time. 

I'm sure someone will be saying that the 2 wins have just moved us closer to LJ's next losing run.

At the moment, where we are in the league is very much down to a solid defence, as our midfield and strikers don't seem to be firing on all cylinders, so it is making games more of a struggle than perhaps they should be.

There appears very little between the top 15 or so teams, so if we can maintain the defensive solidity but find that extra something going forward, we could be in with half a chance of play offs.

That's undoubtedly put the kibosh on the season! 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, PFree said:

There's plenty of light when talking to him as he's so short

 More seriously, all I want from a City team is a passionate, fully committed display every week and ideally where the team attacks with tempo - I have no problem losing or not going up providing they all put a committed shift in. All I see at the moment is sideways and backward passes, very slow tempo and a lot of boring, slow, possession football.

I have no problem with LJ but at times the current football is far too negative - he admitted himself last night that he didn't want to "go for it" in fear of losing? We are at home against a side second from the bottom - surely attack is the best form of defence? One man up front, at home, playing a relegation favourite - little structure, strange subs, need I go on?

 When you think back to Jacki and Scott Murray in his prime, I couldn't wait to get to the Gate as it was great seeing them going past players with great skill, I just want players who attack and at least have a go..!

 

Appreciate that, but the game has changed.

Play that high tempo, 4-4-2 (assuming it was mainly 4-4-2 back then) and there is a strong chance you can get picked off.

Hull maybe 2nd from bottom but they are reasonably well structured, they seldom get tonkings- indeed have only lost by 1 goal to Leeds and Sheffield United, while drawing with Middlesborough- it was never likely to be a thumping.

One up front need not be negative too- in some ways a standard 4-4-2 is used as a more reactive setup these days, whereas one up front can give the security of a base in midfield to enable wingers pushed high. full backs to push on and maybe a ball-playing centre back to step up into the midfield with a midfielder joining the attack- what may appear on paper as a 4-5-1 can very easily morph into 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and maybe 4-2-4-0/4-6-0 hybrid. Something a traditional 4-4-2 doesn't tend to give- Reid with Paterson upfront was 1 up front at home in some ways, yet the football was terrific. Noble behind Trundle or Byfield in that season saw some great football in the first half of the season- and guess what, it was one up front at home!

More clinical finishing last night, could have seen us win by 2 or 3.

@MelksRed I'd argue we've won in a number of distinct ways this season.

QPR away- the vital, any win will do sort.

Swansea away and Blackburn home- 2 excellent wins, first one score first and then counter, 2nd half more resilient. Blackburn at home, come back from a sloppy start and a goal for them, to overwhelm them somewhat in the 2nd half with attacking play (not going to deny 4-1 flattered us a bit mind).

Sheffield United home- Potentially the seeds of a Plan B. Yes McGoldrick could have scored in the first half, but had we gone our usual shape from the start, Sheffield United IMO would have picked us off- we showed discipline and hung in there before going for it later on. As a game, was absorbing tactically and vs a very good side at that.

Brentford away- First half we were up against it, pushed back- draw would have been a fine result. However we were able to stay in there and then take advantage, control when they went down to 10- showed both sides of our game there IMO.

Hull home- Tbh could have scored another goal or 2, but then so could they- we were not fantastic but we dug it out, we kept going and got what we deserved. Pretty dominant on the ball also.

That is pretty encouraging to me, the ability to win in a number of ways as opposed to just 'attack attack' or needing to play great football.

[Ivorguy]

This is still under 20 games played

Let us see where we are at 20 games 

We should then have a pretty shrewd idea

Still expect mid table and a platform to build for next season

Slow progress but sure should be City’s motto

 

[Roger Red Hat]

1 hour ago, PFree said:

There's plenty of light when talking to him as he's so short

More seriously, all I want from a City team is a passionate, fully committed display every week and ideally where the team attacks with tempo - I have no problem losing or not going up providing they all put a committed shift in. All I see at the moment is sideways and backward passes, very slow tempo and a lot of boring, slow, possession football.

I have no problem with LJ but at times the current football is far too negative - he admitted himself last night that he didn't want to "go for it" in fear of losing? We are at home against a side second from the bottom - surely attack is the best form of defence? One man up front, at home, playing a relegation favourite - little structure, strange subs, need I go on?

When you think back to Jacki and Scott Murray in his prime, I couldn't wait to get to the Gate as it was great seeing them going past players with great skill, I just want players who attack and at least have a go..!

 

You've not been to a game recently then.

[reddogkev]

1 hour ago, Whitchurch1966 said:

A new challenge he is going have to face is that pretty soon is that he will have a very strong squad as players come back from injury (unless we get get more), I think this will probably be a first for him while he has been here or anywhere else. It will be harder to bring the youngsters through and will also enable him to tinker even more than he usually does, not sure if that is a good or bad thing. In my opinion this will prove if he can manage at a higher level or not.

Interesting observation, and you are right, he will soon have a vast squad of differing degrees of talent, and will have to make sure he keeps them all happy where possible, without switching things around too much in the process!

[zombie]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

I'm hoping most of our negative feeling of the early part of the month has dispersed

I hope you’re right Kev, sadly though I fear you’re not. There are certain people on here who will refuse to look at Lee in a positive light, we could win 10 on the bounce, but if we lost the 11th they’d be out in force. Their belief that our current manager is not fit for purpose is so entrenched that if we managed playoffs it wouldn’t be good enough, despite the fact that we are a relatively small club at this level competing with some big clubs and many other clubs who receive parachute payments.

I’m an infrequent, but hopefully realistic poster, I didn’t lose my head like some when we went on a small losing run, I won’t get carried away if we go on a winning run either. I think a place in the top 10 is great, especially when you look at wages bills of some of the clubs below.

I don’t feel the negativity has dispersed, but the negative posters have conveniently/temporarily, at least until we lose again. I can think of one poster in particular who since joining has made double figure plus posts per day, but since our back to back wins has been super quiet.

Is there anyway of checking how busy the forum is after a win vs after a loss? I know after Man Utd last season was busy, but generally I get the impression that this place is busier after a bad result than a good one. Some people can’t take the rough with the smooth I suppose and prefer to be angry/unhappy.

[reddogkev]

10 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

This is still under 20 games played

Let us see where we are at 20 games 

We should then have a pretty shrewd idea

Still expect mid table and a platform to build for next season

Slow progress but sure should be City’s motto

 

To be honest, I'd expect us to be in the same sort of spot in another 6 games, I can't see the table changing that much.  I wonder how slow our progress actually is, in relative terms?  You could argue that we are making quick strides to the top.  Before starting this thread, I was going to ask what is our timeline to promotion?  As the season progresses we may even turn into play off dark horses - pure speculation, but you never know.

[Lrrr]

Lose your three most valuable assets and have the team in a higher place then where you finished last season is good work regardless of wherever the last seasons position is. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

5 hours ago, zombie said:

I hope you’re right Kev, sadly though I fear you’re not. There are certain people on here who will refuse to look at Lee in a positive light, we could win 10 on the bounce, but if we lost the 11th they’d be out in force. Their belief that our current manager is not fit for purpose is so entrenched that if we managed playoffs it wouldn’t be good enough, despite the fact that we are a relatively small club at this level competing with some big clubs and many other clubs who receive parachute payments.

I’m an infrequent, but hopefully realistic poster, I didn’t lose my head like some when we went on a small losing run, I won’t get carried away if we go on a winning run either. I think a place in the top 10 is great, especially when you look at wages bills of some of the clubs below.

I don’t feel the negativity has dispersed, but the negative posters have conveniently/temporarily, at least until we lose again. I can think of one poster in particular who since joining has made double figure plus posts per day, but since our back to back wins has been super quiet.

Is there anyway of checking how busy the forum is after a win vs after a loss? I know after Man Utd last season was busy, but generally I get the impression that this place is busier after a bad result than a good one. Some people can’t take the rough with the smooth I suppose and prefer to be angry/unhappy.

It’s all in here (below) ....knock yerself out....your post belongs in there somewhere...

 

[ScottishRed]

I must be going to a different game than most on this thread.

Last night we were incredibly lucky to win - Hull, at times, in the first half, particularly early on, looked really threatening and it took some excellent defensive work and Max AND a bit of luck to keep them out.

How anyone cannot see that we are utterly impotentent in front of goal astounds me - Fam is too slow and cumbersome and Weiman is NOT a striker.

Witness Ellison - who I thought played very well first half, putting numerous balls into the box with NOBODY attacking them.

Midfield is way too static - countless times last night we brought the ball out from the back and there was ZERO movement which left the player in possession with no option but to go square.

Let's see what happens on Saturday - if I was an opposition manager in this league I would quite fancy my chances against us currently.

 

[Hampshire Red]

Twots!

After last nights game you can easily identify those that went to the game (moderately positive) with those that watched on a tiny screen, aka sky , red button some idiots on otib are apparently criticizing Bristol City players after; a) a win for us, b) a good start to the season c) a positive mood amongst 90% of real fans.

Who are these negative twots on a forum who seek to undermine our OWN players? . As the saying goes who needs enemies....

[Bs4Red]

Personally think results and position speaks for itself that he’s doing a great job in what is probably the toughest and most competitive league in the world. 

Imo he is doing it with an extremely average side. We have no outstanding players and for me feel we are a mile off the top 6 come May. 

The only worry I have is that for the our footballing style has gone backwards and recently although results have been positive, I’ve personally found us slightly boring and one dimensional, We’ve lost that intricate style we had last season, maybe that’s why we have 4 clean uns in 6. But I do fear that we just lack goal threat. 

Lee is doing a great job with what he has but for me, it’s a year of mediocrity but another year of building into a solid championship side. 

I can see a lot of what people like but also why people don’t like it. 

 

[Bs4Red]

2 minutes ago, Hampshire Red said:

Twots!

After last nights game you can easily identify those that went to the game (moderately positive) with those that watched on a tiny screen, aka sky , red button some idiots on otib are apparently criticizing Bristol City players after; a) a win for us, b) a good start to the season c) a positive mood amongst 90% of real fans.

Who are these negative twots on a forum who seek to undermine our OWN players? . As the saying goes who needs enemies....

I think people are quite entitled to be slightly disappointed by recent PERFORMANCES. 

Its very different to being disappointed with results, decent games haven’t been exciting but we’ve got results.  

I thought last night was poor, we lacked pace in our play and we were sloppy in front of goal. 

The obvious positive was the result, I haven’t seen that many negative things about the team, more the performance 

[cidered abroad]

23 minutes ago, hodge said:

Lose your three most valuable assets and have the team in a higher place then where you finished last season is good work regardless of wherever the last seasons position is. 

That is a very fair point. Twenty two points from fourteen games is a good return with a completely different back five. 

However, as a half empty person, I await the annual really bad run. I will be delighted for LJ if it doesn't happen again this season.

 

[RedLionLad]

I'm happy......but not clapping just yet.

[Swede]

I think he has done a terrific job and I don't get all the continued negativity around him from some. The so called nepotism is around ten years old and long gone surely.

I feel some of the football has been laboured of late and I put that down to not utilising the whole squad.

It is a concern that Pack & Brownhill are flogged continually whilst Liam Walsh warms the bench. In someways we haven't got enough depth or LJ's trust in the squad and for that he is quick to remind us that this is a new team.

The football up to Wolves at home last year was breathtaking and the best I've witnessed in over 40 years of watching City. This season tends to be more patient rather than pressing.

I think we may come up a little below expectation this season and that's more down to the parachute inequality of this division plus some serious big hitters going for it in Boro, Leeds and Derby.

You don't replace the quality we've lost overnight but I do think we are steadily moving in the right direction and for that he should be applauded.

[Lew-T]

Like anything with Lee Johnson, things can change in days. We could see a thread like this again before we’ve lost a few, of course.

I’m no Andy80100 or what’s his face, but I’d like to hold back my optimism for now until we see some consistency.

[Davefevs]

6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Appreciate that, but the game has changed.

Play that high tempo, 4-4-2 (assuming it was mainly 4-4-2 back then) and there is a strong chance you can get picked off.

Hull maybe 2nd from bottom but they are reasonably well structured, they seldom get tonkings- indeed have only lost by 1 goal to Leeds and Sheffield United, while drawing with Middlesborough- it was never likely to be a thumping.

One up front need not be negative too- in some ways a standard 4-4-2 is used as a more reactive setup these days, whereas one up front can give the security of a base in midfield to enable wingers pushed high. full backs to push on and maybe a ball-playing centre back to step up into the midfield with a midfielder joining the attack- what may appear on paper as a 4-5-1 can very easily morph into 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and maybe 4-2-4-0/4-6-0 hybrid. Something a traditional 4-4-2 doesn't tend to give- Reid with Paterson upfront was 1 up front at home in some ways, yet the football was terrific. Noble behind Trundle or Byfield in that season saw some great football in the first half of the season- and guess what, it was one up front at home!

More clinical finishing last night, could have seen us win by 2 or 3.

@MelksRed I'd argue we've won in a number of distinct ways this season.

QPR away- the vital, any win will do sort.

Swansea away and Blackburn home- 2 excellent wins, first one score first and then counter, 2nd half more resilient. Blackburn at home, come back from a sloppy start and a goal for them, to overwhelm them somewhat in the 2nd half with attacking play (not going to deny 4-1 flattered us a bit mind).

Sheffield United home- Potentially the seeds of a Plan B. Yes McGoldrick could have scored in the first half, but had we gone our usual shape from the start, Sheffield United IMO would have picked us off- we showed discipline and hung in there before going for it later on. As a game, was absorbing tactically and vs a very good side at that.

Brentford away- First half we were up against it, pushed back- draw would have been a fine result. However we were able to stay in there and then take advantage, control when they went down to 10- showed both sides of our game there IMO.

Hull home- Tbh could have scored another goal or 2, but then so could they- we were not fantastic but we dug it out, we kept going and got what we deserved. Pretty dominant on the ball also.

That is pretty encouraging to me, the ability to win in a number of ways as opposed to just 'attack attack' or needing to play great football.

Ta, saved me a fair bit of typing.  From my clean slate post in the summer LJ is in credit.  Thought his post-game interview showed maturity.  Thought the change in formation showed better in-game management.  Thought that not seeing a predictable double sub after an hour was a sign of him trying to read the game better.

50 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

I must be going to a different game than most on this thread.

Last night we were incredibly lucky to win - Hull, at times, in the first half, particularly early on, looked really threatening and it took some excellent defensive work and Max AND a bit of luck to keep them out.

How anyone cannot see that we are utterly impotentent in front of goal astounds me - Fam is too slow and cumbersome and Weiman is NOT a striker.

Witness Ellison - who I thought played very well first half, putting numerous balls into the box with NOBODY attacking them.

Midfield is way too static - countless times last night we brought the ball out from the back and there was ZERO movement which left the player in possession with no option but to go square.

Let's see what happens on Saturday - if I was an opposition manager in this league I would quite fancy my chances against us currently.

 

If you were a Hull fan what would you have thought of City’s chances?  We forced their keeper into good saves, hit the inside of the post, snatched at a couple of good opportunities, etc.  It wasn’t one way traffic.  That opening 30 minutes was pretty even in chances.  We gave away sloppy passes in bad areas that made us look worse than we were overall.  When we did pass, we broke the thirds.  There was one instance where Webster played a firm pass into Pato (coming short but well marked).  He had no option to go to Dasilva and a pass to Webster would’ve had to be perfect to not put Webster under pressure from the Hull press. Pato had the confidence in his own ability to suck his marker in, control and move the ball to his right and with his next touch pass to Brownhill, opening up Hull.  Brownhill onto Eliasson who because we’d broken their lines was now 1on1 with their defender.  That wasn’t the only occasion where we broke the lines like that.  The chances we conceded skews the view of our performance last night.

Weimann looked tired, Fam got better when he played on his own, and then when Taylor joined him late on.

Eliasson’s crosses, one was a cross-shot, tipped away, Another was parried with Diedhiou awaiting a tapin, Another too close to the Keeper, etc.  We got bodies in the box, Fam spinning onto his left foot but the shot blocked from Dasilva’s cross.  O’Dowda heading tamely from Eliasson’s right foot cross in second half.  So i’d Argue we dud attack them, just didn’t get the results.

I thought Brownhill and Paterson’s movement was pretty good last night.  We broke their lines more often than plenty of other games.  Our final ball centrally wasn’t on the money though.  Pack comes short to allow Webster to bring it forward.  

Saturday is indeed a different day, and who knows what will happen, but I definitely think I watched the same game to you, just we view things differently.

[RobintheRed Red]

9 hours ago, PFree said:

There's plenty of light when talking to him as he's so short

More seriously, all I want from a City team is a passionate, fully committed display every week and ideally where the team attacks with tempo - I have no problem losing or not going up providing they all put a committed shift in. All I see at the moment is sideways and backward passes, very slow tempo and a lot of boring, slow, possession football.

I have no problem with LJ but at times the current football is far too negative - he admitted himself last night that he didn't want to "go for it" in fear of losing? We are at home against a side second from the bottom - surely attack is the best form of defence? One man up front, at home, playing a relegation favourite - little structure, strange subs, need I go on?

When you think back to Jacki and Scott Murray in his prime, I couldn't wait to get to the Gate as it was great seeing them going past players with great skill, I just want players who attack and at least have a go..!

 

Spot on

[RobintheRed Red]

1 hour ago, ScottishRed said:

I must be going to a different game than most on this thread.

Last night we were incredibly lucky to win - Hull, at times, in the first half, particularly early on, looked really threatening and it took some excellent defensive work and Max AND a bit of luck to keep them out.

How anyone cannot see that we are utterly impotentent in front of goal astounds me - Fam is too slow and cumbersome and Weiman is NOT a striker.

Witness Ellison - who I thought played very well first half, putting numerous balls into the box with NOBODY attacking them.

Midfield is way too static - countless times last night we brought the ball out from the back and there was ZERO movement which left the player in possession with no option but to go square.

Let's see what happens on Saturday - if I was an opposition manager in this league I would quite fancy my chances against us currently.

 

Too right take the red blinkers off we got out of jail

[WhistleHappy]

I think I've found him... have a look, what do ya think? 

[ZiderEyed]

2 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

Twots!

After last nights game you can easily identify those that went to the game (moderately positive) with those that watched on a tiny screen, aka sky , red button some idiots on otib are apparently criticizing Bristol City players after; a) a win for us, b) a good start to the season c) a positive mood amongst 90% of real fans.

Who are these negative twots on a forum who seek to undermine our OWN players? . As the saying goes who needs enemies....

Awful.

- 'Real fans' is a no true Scotsman fallacy. It's total bollocks.

- I think the issues people have with the team are performances. And frankly, I'm glad you're not in charge of the team if thatsyour attitude RE constant improvement. Rafa Benitez, afterone game in which Fernando Torres had scored a hat trick for Liverpool, wrote 'you gave the ball away x times' on the match ball. You have to encourage players to constantly improve or they stagnate. Would rather LJ was constantly critical than constantly happy.

- It's a good start to the season in terms of results, in performances it's much more debatable.

Would suggest calling people ***** and posing questions like 'who are these negative *****?' is just virtue signalling and sycophancy of the worst kind. I'm by no means a doom and gloomer nor a happy clapper, mind you. 

[cidercity1987]

'We want to be consistent this season. It might be that we have to take a point here or there, whereas last year we were a bit gung-ho.'

And so speaks a midtable manager. A simple analysis of the table last season shows:

1. We lost less than a play off team , Middlesbrough.

2. We lost 4 less than a team who finished above us, Sheff Utd

3. We won the least out of the top 11

4. We drew the joint most games in the division.

5. The two teams who won most got promoted.

6. The team who lost the most survived, Birmingham.

Conclusion: Draws are shit Mr Johnson when compared to a winning a few and losing a few but we all know that by simple mathematics. Understand that and drop the oh we were too gung ho rubbish

[Major Isewater]

8 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

Twots!

After last nights game you can easily identify those that went to the game (moderately positive) with those that watched on a tiny screen, aka sky , red button some idiots on otib are apparently criticizing Bristol City players after; a) a win for us, b) a good start to the season c) a positive mood amongst 90% of real fans.

Who are these negative twots on a forum who seek to undermine our OWN players? . As the saying goes who needs enemies....

Do you mean ' ***** ' ?