Jump to content

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums, like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community, but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be a part of One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums by signing in or creating an account.

  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Full access to all forums (not all viewable as guest)
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members.
  • Support OTIB with a premium membership

Judda

Bolton / Bury On The Brink (Merged)

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

I know what you mean but at this point what more could they do? The club can't fulfil it's league fixtures, had no financial prospects and even prospective owners didn't want anything to do with the club once they got close.

The EFL just shouldn't have let this charlatan take over the club in the first place. If he was the "successful businessman" he touted himself as why did he leave a string of dissolved companies in his wake, and more importantly where did the money go?

This is what I was aiming at tbh and their total lack of backbone when it comes to regulation

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Can someone explain for us stupid people what this all means? Buying and selling debt has always confused me.

Under a CVA, any company can offer to 'buy' the outstanding debt, in this case £7M. The son in law bought it for £70k knowing the administrator had stated a payment of 25p in the pound if liquidated. He now wants £1.75M for the £70k 'purchase' due to the original debt he bought @25 percent.

Edited by Ska Junkie
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

Just announced on Sky, Bury have been expelled from the football league.

Sad, sad day. 😢

All the rights and wrongs and everything else aside... why were they allowed to “start” the season..?

I always thought that every club, from Man Utd (formality, of course) to Bristol Rovers (book fiddling can do the trick) had to provide proof that they could complete the forthcoming season, prior to fixtures being released..? 

Terrible, terrible day for Bury and football in general - but this season’s state of affairs should never have been allowed to happen. 

2 minutes ago, pillred said:

And what precisely has that got to do with either Bolton or Bury?

It’s probably their fault. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

Under a CVA, any company can offer to 'buy' the outstanding debt, in this case £7M. The son in law bought it for £70k knowing the administrator had stated a payment of 25p in the pound if liquidated. He now wants £1.75M for the £70k 'purchase' due to the original sent he bought @25 percent.

I thought I read that 75% of creditors had to agree, and the 75% was of creditors not related / connected ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sad, sad day.

Don't ask me why but given his laisse faire/useless approach to governance I have a slight suspicion that Shaun Harvey would have let Bury start the season and after that who knows- may have unravelled really quickly but it's a suspicion that I can't fully shake.

12 hours ago it looked all good- the fans were there including Bolton fan helping to clean the ground- that guy in his 70s was there, the one who was turning up to the ground each day.

Dark day for English football, first such situation like this since "the modern era" began- sad times. Wise words from JL.

EC-fQBPWsAEWMVL.jpg

EC-fRrDWsAYYE2T.jpg

 

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Can someone explain for us stupid people what this all means? Buying and selling debt has always confused me.

You buy debt based on amount of debt and the chance of it getting repaid. 

As has been reported by David Conn, 7m quid of debt was sold for 70k. So basically an assumption that there is 1 in 100 chance of full repayment. However, it was bought by an undisclosed related party (partner of owners daughter) and owner then negotiated the CVA that suddenly reevaluated chances of repayment from 1 in 100 to 1 in 4. Again, undisclosed that a related party was owner of the debt at stake in the CVA  

Thats about the sum of reporting on this thus far. 

Basically you tell someone that their house is worth 100 quid so they sell it to your son in law and then when your son in law buys it you immediately value it at 2500 quid without telling anyone who buys it that your son in law will make 2400 quid from your maths  

 

 

Edited by the1stknowle
  • Thanks 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I thought I read that 75% of creditors had to agree, and the 75% was of creditors not related / connected ?

I understood, from chatting to Bury fans in our Manc office that the £7M makes up more than 75% Dave. It sounds like a total stitch up TBH.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

You buy debt based on amount of debt and the chance of it getting repaid. 

As has been reported by David Conn, 7m quid of debt was sold for 70k. So basically an assumption that there is 1 in 100 chance of full repayment. However, it was bought by an undisclosed related party (partner of owner) and owner then negotiated the CVA that suddenly reevaluated chances of repayment from 1 in 100 to 1 in 4. Again, undisclosed that a related party was owner of the debt at stake in the CVA  

Thats about the sum of reporting on this thus far. 

Basically you tell someone that their house is worth 100 quid so they sell it to your son in law and then when your son in law buys it you immediately value it at 2500 quid without telling anyone who buys it that your son in law will make 2400 quid from your maths  

 

 

Thanks T1K, you've explained it far better than me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

In my very naive world, that’s one team in Lg2 that won’t get relegated this season, no relegation at all if Bolton cold too.

If this means some owners don’t have to gamble their league status and bigger debt this season, it might be a small crumb of comfort.

There are of course other knock-ons to other Lg1 clubs:

  • each team will now only play 22 (21 if Bolton too)home games, that’s 5% (10% if Bolton) lost income (gate receipts, sponsorship etc)
  • would season ticket holders be liable for a reduction as they’ve pre-paid 23 games?  Trivial matter I know, but still something to consider.

A lot of clubs (we definitely have done) advertise as £x per game, would think there could be a case now as that cost per game has increased and therefore not what was advertised.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

Sad day for football, but why have Bolton been given another 14 days, thought administrator said Tuesday was last day and they will be liquidated Wednesday.

What has changed for them to get another 14 days.

I thought he said he would start the liquidation process on Wednesday. They are essentially 2 weeks behind the very unfortunate Bury.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, hodge said:

A lot of clubs (we definitely have done) advertise as £x per game, would think there could be a case now as that cost per game has increased and therefore not what was advertised.

I’m not sure it’s legally binding if it was accurate at the time of print, and tbh I hope it isn’t.
 

I know fans miss out on their teams playing Bury but something doesn’t sit right about teams paying out because other clubs are badly run.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bury have been finished off by 2 sharks. The first one loaded the debts of his failing business onto the football club. The second one, on the basis of no personal investment at all (£1) is looking to make a quick million or two from the club going bust and selling off its assets to the creditors, which alledgely include a close family member, who apparently bought some of the debt at a knockdown price.

Neither of these 2 “businessmen” should have been let anywhere near a football club, but only in the EFL could you also have one of the Oystons previously act as an advisor for others club owners on behalf of the EFL itself. As long as club owners have control over the EFL, this situation will not improve, and the risk is that more clubs could go to the wall, thanks to poor decisions and dodgy dealings, plus what appears to be a complete lack of appropriate governance from those supposedly running the leagues.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 years ago in August- and on this date in fact having looked it up we played Bury.

Remember it vaguely as it was my first full season but Bristol City 1-1 Bury, 28th August 1999. Pulis v Warnock.

That Bury statement I fear could have been a harbinger- they put out a statement coming up to 5pm about CCTV, not entering the ground without permission- already posted about it but I wonder...

Who owns Gigg Lane?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

So if they are being liquidated how can they continue.

I would imagine the start of the liquidation process is the countdown to a deadline of 14 days WAT but I'm guessing to be honest.

Sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

So if they are being liquidated how can they continue.

They’ve put out a statement tonight saying they’re still in talks with bidders.

Sounds like liquidation was a threat to get buyers to hurry up. Not too encouraging that they didn’t.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

They’ve put out a statement tonight saying they’re still in talks with bidders.

Sounds like liquidation was a threat to get buyers to hurry up. Not too encouraging that they didn’t.

But Bury were in talks with bidders today but have been expelled.

I have said this before I think Bolton have been getting preferential treatment from the league. Plus they didn’t have the guts to expel 2 teams at once. 

A club with 5 players who cancel matches for they say there youth team can’t play twice a week can continue getting best 5 0 every week.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Worst thing is, well it's worst for Bury right now and followed by Bolton of course.

However a significantly bad factor- I think and fear it maybe the tip of the icerberg- got a bad feeling that in the medium term we may see quite a few more in the Lower Leagues on this path- be it poor ownership, lack of cash, whatever.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

But Bury were in talks with bidders today but have been expelled.

I have said this before I think Bolton have been getting preferential treatment from the league. Plus they didn’t have the guts to expel 2 teams at once. 

A club with 5 players who cancel matches for they say there youth team can’t play twice a week can continue getting best 5 0 every week.

 

It was a different situation mate. Bolton had their 14-day notice period put on hold, and that was lifted tonight. If they don’t find new owners in 14 days, they’re chucked out.

That’s the deadline that Bury failed to meet on Friday, and again today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

You buy debt based on amount of debt and the chance of it getting repaid. 

As has been reported by David Conn, 7m quid of debt was sold for 70k. So basically an assumption that there is 1 in 100 chance of full repayment. However, it was bought by an undisclosed related party (partner of owners daughter) and owner then negotiated the CVA that suddenly reevaluated chances of repayment from 1 in 100 to 1 in 4. Again, undisclosed that a related party was owner of the debt at stake in the CVA  

Thats about the sum of reporting on this thus far. 

Basically you tell someone that their house is worth 100 quid so they sell it to your son in law and then when your son in law buys it you immediately value it at 2500 quid without telling anyone who buys it that your son in law will make 2400 quid from your maths  

I my have misinterpreted this, but Im sure I also read that with a CVA the various creditors have to agree by majority ( based on size of debt I think) in order that the CVA is passed, and by "selling" the largest debt to the son-in-law it meant that the son in law's  vote would carry the vote and ensure the CVA being agreed, thereby ensuring an immediate "profit" for the family. 

If so, then the owner, through the son in law, was ensuring that he ( the family) profited from the club's misfortune. It also begs the question as to whether by selling the debt in the way they did, they would benefit better and quicker with the club's demise.

As many others have said this sad situation raises many questions, particularly about the EFL's involvement in and handling of the whole situation - from the owner passing the EFL's fit and proper test despite his business track record, through to failing to see the warning signs and how they could/should have stepped in earlier to avoid the loss of a club.

Following on, as this does,  from the recent shambolic run around the EFL were given by Vila, Derby and Wednesday over "stadiumgate", and the admittance that someone cocked up the new rules by failing to transfer across the  rule that prevented sale of a stadium to a related third party, the EFL comes out of the summer looking unprofessional, inept and self-serving.

I'm not holding my breath that there will be any accountability for this catalogue of failure,

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, downendcity said:

I my have misinterpreted this, but Im sure I also read that with a CVA the various creditors have to agree by majority ( based on size of debt I think) in order that the CVA is passed, and by "selling" the largest debt to the son-in-law it meant that the son in law's  vote would carry the vote and ensure the CVA being agreed, thereby ensuring an immediate "profit" for the family. 

If so, then the owner, through the son in law, was ensuring that he ( the family) profited from the club's misfortune. It also begs the question as to whether by selling the debt in the way they did, they would benefit better and quicker with the club's demise.

As many others have said this sad situation raises many questions, particularly about the EFL's involvement in and handling of the whole situation - from the owner passing the EFL's fit and proper test despite his business track record, through to failing to see the warning signs and how they could/should have stepped in earlier to avoid the loss of a club.

Following on, as this does,  from the recent shambolic run around the EFL were given by Vila, Derby and Wednesday over "stadiumgate", and the admittance that someone cocked up the new rules by failing to transfer across the  rule that prevented sale of a stadium to a related third party, the EFL comes out of the summer looking unprofessional, inept and self-serving.

I'm not holding my breath that there will be any accountability for this catalogue of failure,

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/27/bury-historic-club-football-league-financial-ruins

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/23/bury-company-debt-cva-steve-dale-daughter

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

But Bury were in talks with bidders today but have been expelled.

I have said this before I think Bolton have been getting preferential treatment from the league. Plus they didn’t have the guts to expel 2 teams at once. 

A club with 5 players who cancel matches for they say there youth team can’t play twice a week can continue getting best 5 0 every week.

 

I also feel like Bolton have been getting preferential treatment - but from a business point of view (not saying this is how football should be run) they are marginally the more likely to survive and are a bigger 'brand' at the moment. That is what matters to the EFL.

Shouldn't be forgotten that Bury had already agreed their CVA - this is quite a long way down the liquidation route (if I've got this right). Portsmouth were on the verge (10 years ago) because they couldn't get a CVA agreed, I imagine any attempt to agree one would be the next step for Bolton?

I also believe that Bury do own Gigg Lane but took out loans against the ground (under the Stewart Day) from his companies at extortionate interest rates, so they do own the ground but only until whoever owns that debt calls it in.

Kieron Maguire is right - full disclosure is essential, there are obvious difficulties around how competitive this makes a club but for one owner (Dale) and two prospective investors to not know the extent of the debt the club are in, it shows how big the problems are.

Edited by solihull cider red
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

I would imagine the start of the liquidation process is the countdown to a deadline of 14 days WAT but I'm guessing to be honest.

Sorry.

It's a legal requirement.

I don't think a club has ever survived the start if this process.

Unless Bolton get an amazing stroke of luck - ie someone sticking in 25mil cash to guarantee the season payments to staff - then the expulsion will activate automatically in 13 days.

I'd say they have a 0.1% chance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The day after Bury are expelled from the EFL and the problems at Bolton, the ‘big six’ are reported AGAIN as looking at a breakaway league.

This is what’s completely wrong with the football in this country , Grred, Greed , Greed.

It makes me sick 

Edited by daored

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What happens to the results that Bury should have played already? (first 6 games).  Do those teams automatically receive 3 points or are they treated as a draw?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Loco Rojo said:

What happens to the results that Bury should have played already? (first 6 games).  Do those teams automatically receive 3 points or are they treated as a draw?

Presumably nothing, they'll play 42/44 games depending on Bolton presume Bolton's results will be expunged if they go

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

Sad day for football, but why have Bolton been given another 14 days, thought administrator said Tuesday was last day and they will be liquidated Wednesday.

What has changed for them to get another 14 days.

Because the bigger clubs always get treated more leniently by the powers that be. Reminds me of when Swindon were relegated two divisions for financial irregularities and at the same time time Spurs were only fined for the same offence. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, daored said:

The day after Bury are expelled from the EFL and the problems at Bolton, the ‘big six’ are reported AGAIN as looking at a breakaway league.

This is what’s completely wrong with the football in this country , Grred, Greed , Greed.

It makes me sick 

Good let them all **** off to play one another week in week out. Leave the rest of us to play in a proper competitive league.

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1
  • Flames 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Good let them all **** off to play one another week in week out. Leave the rest of us to play in a proper competitive league.

In the long term that might be for the best, but in the short term it would destroy many of the existing clubs. 

Not much money seems to filter down, but clubs absolutely rely on the little that does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That Steve Dale character is should never been allowed to take over Bury. I really hope he doesn’t profit in anyway from this fiasco.

 Is there anyway back for Bury? Will that numpty be able to sell their ground? Can the fans sue him/Stewart Day? It makes me so angry 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, exAtyeoMax said:

That Steve Dale character is should never been allowed to take over Bury. I really hope he doesn’t profit in anyway from this fiasco.

 Is there anyway back for Bury? Will that numpty be able to sell their ground? Can the fans sue him/Stewart Day? It makes me so angry 

Sounds like Dale is a professional asset stripper. Buying companies in distress, reorganisation the debt and then selling the debt on at a profit.

I would imagine the 7mil sold to his son in law for 70k and now valued at 1.2mil is a 'secured' figure, so after the administrator is paid, that amount will be realised from the sale of the stadium. 

I am guessing by the way, but I will be surprised if they are out of pocket.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

20 years ago in August- and on this date in fact having looked it up we played Bury.

Remember it vaguely as it was my first full season but Bristol City 1-1 Bury, 28th August 1999. Pulis v Warnock.

That Bury statement I fear could have been a harbinger- they put out a statement coming up to 5pm about CCTV, not entering the ground without permission- already posted about it but I wonder...

Who owns Gigg Lane?

Remember this game if I’m not mistaken - Matt Hill’s debut and Soren Anderson scoring our equaliser, I believe.

Unbelievable to think that two decades later Bury (a Division One/Championship team at the time) would be in this situation.

The scenario surrounding their demise stinks of the kind of disaster capitalism that many ‘businessmen’ engage in, and for me is a lasting stain on the EFL, as they ultimately proved useless as arbiters of who should be allowed to manage what are community institutions at their heart.

A sad, sad day and I hope we don’t see another soon with Bolton.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Sad, sad day.

Don't ask me why but given his laisse faire/useless approach to governance I have a slight suspicion that Shaun Harvey would have let Bury start the season and after that who knows- may have unravelled really quickly but it's a suspicion that I can't fully shake.

12 hours ago it looked all good- the fans were there including Bolton fan helping to clean the ground- that guy in his 70s was there, the one who was turning up to the ground each day.

Dark day for English football, first such situation like this since "the modern era" began- sad times. Wise words from JL.

EC-fQBPWsAEWMVL.jpg

EC-fRrDWsAYYE2T.jpg

 

Just look at that, all you disgraceful parents who let your kids support Man U. YOU are partly responsible for this debacle. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Sounds like Dale is a professional asset stripper. Buying companies in distress, reorganisation the debt and then selling the debt on at a profit.

I would imagine the 7mil sold to his son in law for 70k and now valued at 1.2mil is a 'secured' figure, so after the administrator is paid, that amount will be realised from the sale of the stadium. 

I am guessing by the way, but I will be surprised if they are out of pocket.

Anchors

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

The EFL really need to admit/take some responsibility for this.

How it ever got to the point where this could be allowed to happen needs investigating.

The FA and the EFL need to look into this as a matter of urgency.

There should be an independent audit of clubs accounts at the end of every season. If the audit raises concerns / queries then the owner(s) should have to explain and prove how the club will run for the next season. 

There should be a removal of undisclosed fees, payments. Payments to third parties should be more transparent. Basically every penny a club receives should be recorded and disclosed where it has gone. 

It will remove the option of clubs selling the ground for an inflated price as well. 

This should take place for ALL professional football clubs.

Hopefully it will remove the dark arts of the finances of the game. Slightly concerning to hear ‘Big’ Sam on talksport other day talking about club finances 

It would also be ideal if the greed of the premier league was removed, whilst I appreciate for many it is the ambition, personally I couldn’t care less if we never reached the overhyped, egotistical premier league.

  • Like 2
  • Robin 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, daored said:

The FA and the EFL need to look into this as a matter of urgency.

There should be an independent audit of clubs accounts at the end of every season. If the audit raises concerns / queries then the owner(s) should have to explain and prove how the club will run for the next season. 

There should be a removal of undisclosed fees, payments. Payments to third parties should be more transparent. Basically every penny a club receives should be recorded and disclosed where it has gone. 

It will remove the option of clubs selling the ground for an inflated price as well. 

This should take place for ALL professional football clubs.

Hopefully it will remove the dark arts of the finances of the game. Slightly concerning to hear ‘Big’ Sam on talksport other day talking about club finances 

It would also be ideal if the greed of the premier league was removed, whilst I appreciate for many it is the ambition, personally I couldn’t care less if we never reached the overhyped, egotistical premier league.

Forget the FA and EFL, as I've said before get the NAO in. The state of football finances needs an independent review. When it comes to football finance and business due diligence I wouldn't trust the FA and EFL to run a bath. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the guys who helped save them some years back, Ian Harrup ,  a lifelong (50+ years) Bury fan was in a state on radio last night Poor bloke

He claimed that the going ons at Bury were being looked at by the Serious Fraud Office 

Was this Just him emotional or , (hopefully) is there some truth in this ?

Hes also vowed to finance forensic accountants to expose what’s gone on 

I hope he does 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, samo II said:

Remember this game if I’m not mistaken - Matt Hill’s debut and Soren Anderson scoring our equaliser, I believe.

Unbelievable to think that two decades later Bury (a Division One/Championship team at the time) would be in this situation.

The scenario surrounding their demise stinks of the kind of disaster capitalism that many ‘businessmen’ engage in, and for me is a lasting stain on the EFL, as they ultimately proved useless as arbiters of who should be allowed to manage what are community institutions at their heart.

A sad, sad day and I hope we don’t see another soon with Bolton.

Always assumed Anderson left in the summer, but you could well be right.

I remember in fact two 1-1 draws with them, one in March 1999 on a night game and the aforementioned August 1999 one. I also remember "Boring Boring Bury!" rang around the ground at varied intervals.

Agreed- would've been inconceivable.

Agreed- think it's a number of factors too- disaster capitalism, upward flow of cash to PL, allowing any old idiot/asset stripper/fantasist to buy a club subject to a very straight forward "Test". Not that it was even in his interest of course given what we know about his past, but did Dale even have the cash available to him to pay off debt had he been so inclined? Doubt it! EFL considered him fit and proper though...need a serious inquiry into EFL.

I fear it could be Bolton and then a domino effect with a number of clubs who are close to the line- hope I am wholly wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, LeeJohnsonsFlatCap said:

I’m sure Macclesfield are in trouble too which is why Sol left, hadn’t paid players and staff in 3 months?

Can add Huddersfield to the list as well, if what I’ve been told is correct 

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...