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Do we win games because we have better players than the opposition?


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I’ve said in another thread that now isn’t the time for LJ out threads and this isn’t what it’s intended to be... although some of you will undoubtedly see undertones of that nature and I apologise if this comes across in anyway like that. 
 

I was discussing our game and form with a Villa fan last night. He likened us to Villa under Steve Bruce. They were winning games, but they weren’t playing as a team. They were over reliant on having better players than their opposition and those players would somehow win the game, but their ability to play as a team wasn’t what it could have been, and ultimately wasn't what it would turn out to be when they took Dean Smith from Brentford. 
 

Of course it didn’t always work like that, occasionally they’d come up against a well drilled TEAM and their better players weren’t good enough to cope and they’d get beaten. Similarly there’d be odd occasions when they would click as a team - and then they’d hammer teams (I’m sure I recall seeing them smash a team 5-0 at Villa Park on New Year’s Day, don’t recall who tho!). 
 

For me it really rang true for our current squad. We’ve got a lot of good individuals, but collectively are they better than the individual players? I’d say they’re not. Clearly not. 
 

We need to start playing as a team - like Johnson had us playing at the back end of 17/18. That team ethic and commitment coupled with the comparative embarrassment of riches we have now, would surely see us romp this league? If you look at the games we’ve won this season, how many of them would you class as “completely and utterly dominated the opposition” and how many would you class as “sneaked past” alternatively known as “smash and grab”?

 

Sure some of you will just look at the table and be happy, but don’t you think we could be doing so much better if we were greater than the sum of our parts? Maybe even just a little. 
 

We need to improve. As a team. 
 

* I feel the need to point out that there’s a clear difference between playing as a team and playing for the manager. I don’t think anyone out there isn’t playing for LJ (see Tomlin when signed permanently). 

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I agree, you have hit the nail on the head.

We are underperforming as a team and are in a false position in the league, based on those performances. It's just a matter of time until it catches up with us.

We do have good enough players to dominate games and earn convincing wins. It's LJ and his team who have to find the 'formula' to achieve this. 

For me, this season, the jury is still out...

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Yes we need to improve as a team. But are the individuals better than the team? Not so sure.

Their first goal - Hunt makes two mistakes, a hopeless punt forward and then stands off the interception - this leaves Dasilva exposed, who is weak in the challenge and then to top it off, Williams strays away from the back line single handily plays Hogan onside. At least 3 individual errors.

The second...well, Weimann.

And the third, an experienced CB and a young premier league quality centre both let a lofted long ball bounce, twice, and then allow a one forward to beat both of them, bouncing off Benkovic like he has the strength of a child. 

Equally so Fam had a couple of very good chances to hit the target and couldn’t. 

Yes the team needs to improve but individual errors are costing us goals at both ends.

 

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6 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Yes we need to improve as a team. But are the individuals better than the team? Not so sure.

Their first goal - Hunt makes two mistakes, a hopeless punt forward and then stands off the interception - this leaves Dasilva exposed, who is weak in the challenge and then to top it off, Williams strays away from the back line single handily plays Hogan onside. At least 3 individual errors.

The second...well, Weimann.

And the third, an experienced CB and a young premier league quality centre both let a lofted long ball bounce, twice, and then allow a one forward to beat both of them, bouncing off Benkovic like he has the strength of a child. 

Equally so Fam had a couple of very good chances to hit the target and couldn’t. 

Yes the team needs to improve but individual errors are costing us goals at both ends.

 

True, and it's some of those players you mention above (Hunt and Weimann specifically) who need to be replaced for now.

It's a squad game, so bring in others and give them a chance. 

Get the correct players,in form, in the team and we do have the capability to dominate games.

 

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I've been watching City for nearly 40 years.

The individual ability of our large squad of players is greater than any team performance since we beat West Brom last season and Man Utd the season before.

Some teams create the opposite where the individuals come together to form a disproportionately better team.

This is precisely why we can't use "season on season" improvement as a measure for how well LJ is doing.

During a season when (Brentford aside) most other teams are faltering, we are better placed to take advantage than any other recent season in the Championship.

We need a head coach who sees the strengths of individuals, can bring them together to play as a team and can identify patterns of play that those players can understand and implement. This head coach spins a roulette wheel with players and tactics.

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5 minutes ago, Xiled said:

I've been watching City for nearly 40 years.

The individual ability of our large squad of players is greater than any team performance since we beat West Brom last season and Man Utd the season before.

Some teams create the opposite where the individuals come together to form a disproportionately better team.

This is precisely why we can't use "season on season" improvement as a measure for how well LJ is doing.

During a season when (Brentford aside) most other teams are faltering, we are better placed to take advantage than any other recent season in the Championship.

We need a head coach who sees the strengths of individuals, can bring them together to play as a team and can identify patterns of play that those players can understand and implement. This head coach spins a roulette wheel with players and tactics.

Spot on. And I agree with @Fordy62. Exactly how I see it.

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6 minutes ago, Xiled said:

I've been watching City for nearly 40 years.

The individual ability of our large squad of players is greater than any team performance since we beat West Brom last season and Man Utd the season before.

Some teams create the opposite where the individuals come together to form a disproportionately better team.

This is precisely why we can't use "season on season" improvement as a measure for how well LJ is doing.

During a season when (Brentford aside) most other teams are faltering, we are better placed to take advantage than any other recent season in the Championship.

We need a head coach who sees the strengths of individuals, can bring them together to play as a team and can identify patterns of play that those players can understand and implement. This head coach spins a roulette wheel with players and tactics.

I didn’t particularly want this to to into an LJ bashing thread, but it’s difficult to disagree. 

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We have a strong squad now. Still unconvinced about the romping the League claim but it's one thing to sign good players. 

Where though is the structure, the cohesion- the control? The ability to reach, never mind exceed the sum of the parts? That falls on LJ and the coaching staff.

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33 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Yes we need to improve as a team. But are the individuals better than the team? Not so sure.

Their first goal - Hunt makes two mistakes, a hopeless punt forward and then stands off the interception - this leaves Dasilva exposed, who is weak in the challenge and then to top it off, Williams strays away from the back line single handily plays Hogan onside. At least 3 individual errors.

The second...well, Weimann.

And the third, an experienced CB and a young premier league quality centre both let a lofted long ball bounce, twice, and then allow a one forward to beat both of them, bouncing off Benkovic like he has the strength of a child. 

Equally so Fam had a couple of very good chances to hit the target and couldn’t. 

Yes the team needs to improve but individual errors are costing us goals at both ends.

 

First goal Bentley mishandled. So add another error. And the og, I wonder if there was a call from the keeper, because as far as I could tell from the replay (angle not great in the dolman) he would've caught the bal;l ahead of the incoming attackers.

Weimann also created a great chance for himself when 1-0 up. Did the really hard part well by bringing the ball down, and then blasted it as hard as he could. Same with Fammy's chance near the end. You don't need to hit the ball at 100 mph when you are close to goal!

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45 minutes ago, J.V.F said:

are in a false position in the league

People on here have been saying we're in a false league position since October, when does it become a true league position in a season where play off teams aren't running away as a pack? 

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I sometimes liken us to England pre last world cup. Very good players but just could never seem to play as a team. Players would get us through against the average teams [qualifiers for England] but whenever we came up against a real test we would bottle it and you could always see the difference in class.

If we honestly somehow went up this season, would it matter who Lee bought? if he cant manage the team properly now we will get absolutely spanked in the prem!  

When i played as a kid we were once second ion the league and i remember our manager said he didn't want us to go up as we were not ready and would get destroyed in the higher division. Same here i honestly dont think we are ready to go up especially with Johnson in charge as long term i think it could be very damaging.

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10 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Yes we need to improve as a team. But are the individuals better than the team? Not so sure.

Their first goal - Hunt makes two mistakes, a hopeless punt forward and then stands off the interception - this leaves Dasilva exposed, who is weak in the challenge and then to top it off, Williams strays away from the back line single handily plays Hogan onside. At least 3 individual errors.

The second...well, Weimann.

And the third, an experienced CB and a young premier league quality centre both let a lofted long ball bounce, twice, and then allow a one forward to beat both of them, bouncing off Benkovic like he has the strength of a child. 

Equally so Fam had a couple of very good chances to hit the target and couldn’t. 

Yes the team needs to improve but individual errors are costing us goals at both ends.

 

Exactly this...it was these individual errors last night that cost us. All the highlights you make are spot on.

Another where we came under intense pressure, was when Fams first touch let him down and went straight to an opposition player. Who took advantage and set up an attack.

It's these sort of errors in this league that cost you. In the same way as how we scored our goal. Granted Pato was pro active in seeing the opportunity.

Fans keep banging on when we lose about it being LJs fault...yet how can he be at fault for these individual errors?

It's clear to see our weaknesses and strengths.

Our biggest weakness imo, is allowing balls into the box. We simply don't stop enough of them. Hunt and DaSilva are far better going forward than defending and stopping balls into the box. Catch 22...you lose the offensive side of their game if replaced.

Offensively...we are good at attacking on the break. Less effective at breaking down teams when trying methodically and the opposition is defensively organised.

Yesterday showed a prime example of that. 

We went three at the back, with two on front. Officially it was 3412...but it often played like 325.

The connection of that midfield 2 and the front '5' went missing.

At many times in the second half we had 5 players stood static across the width of the pitch just in front of the 18yard box. Each with defenders on them. We had Nagy and Smith and the three defenders sat deeper trying to look for a pass, to a front 5 that were basically static. Occasionally Pato would drop a couple yards...but that was it.

It's been a trait all season. Playing a highline on the shoulder looking for a ball that has to be pin point accurate. The chances of it happening are remote, and when they do happen, have to be taken. The prime example...Fans miss.

Our stats back this up. We simply don't create enough chances. We've done well, because we've generally been clynical when we have.

All the stats back up what we see.

Bentley has made the most saves, and we allow teams to create chances in and around our box. We create few chances, but have generally over achieved by scoring when getting those chances. We play better when playing counter attacking football...through breaking lines or interceptions and attacking fast when the opposition are not organised. We struggle to break down organised teams.

On a slightly different topic...I think so much frustration shown by fans boils down to how spoilt we were entertainment wise during that 2017/18 season. Reid had a one off season, we had him and Pato running and pressing like loons, we had the great cup run...yet we still finished 11th. That season imo, has set a benchmark that many feel we should be able to achieve on a weekly basis. Unfortunately...it simply doesn't work like that.

Fans want certain players playing...Eliasson has been great in recent weeks...but went missing yesterday. Palmer...well...just hasn't got it about him recently. You can't keep carrying players hoping they'll click on day.

Plenty to work on...yet still in the mix.

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1 minute ago, hodge said:

People on here have been saying we're in a false league position since October, when does it become a true league position in a season where play off teams aren't running away as a pack? 

Based on our performances, I believe we are not a top 6 team right now. We rarely win a game convincingly.

If this pattern continues, imo, it will catch up with us eventually.

I could be wrong of course, but lets see where we are at the end of the season.

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22 minutes ago, Xiled said:

During a season when (Brentford aside) most other teams are faltering, we are better placed to take advantage than any other recent season in the Championship.

 

Sorry aren't we level on points with Brentford?

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2 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

First goal Bentley mishandled. So add another error. And the og, I wonder if there was a call from the keeper, because as far as I could tell from the replay (angle not great in the dolman) he would've caught the bal;l ahead of the incoming attackers.

Weimann also created a great chance for himself when 1-0 up. Did the really hard part well by bringing the ball down, and then blasted it as hard as he could. Same with Fammy's chance near the end. You don't need to hit the ball at 100 mph when you are close to goal!

Williams was the biggest fault for 1st goal, don't drop and the 2 strikers are offside. Just seen the goal again on Soccer AM, I think Baker's attempt to get a head on it may have impacted Bentley's sight of the ball as well. 

I wondered if there was a call as well, seems weird Weimann would've gone for the header if there had been a clear, loud, early call.

I have some sympathy with Weimann for his chance, he was under pressure so probably tried taking the chance quickly which meant putting some speed through his leg to kick it quicker.

Fam should have done a lot better though, I thought he was going to try and head it first time after QPR last week but he has to do so much better in that situation when he has Wells free next to him. 

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4 minutes ago, J.V.F said:

Based on our performances, I believe we are not a top 6 team right now. We rarely win a game convincingly.

If this pattern continues, imo, it will catch up with us eventually.

I could be wrong of course, but lets see where we are at the end of the season.

Point being how many teams are winning games convincingly this season? How many teams in the pack behind us are winning games convincingly and 'should' be above us? Preston, Swansea and Millwall as the 3 behind us have been just as hit and miss. Its the state of the league this year and its hard to say after 30 games we don't deserve to be where we are, perhaps after 10/15 games but 30 is hard to say that.

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9 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Sorry aren't we level on points with Brentford?

The one team in the division who are getting it together at this point in the season.

Everyone else is stuttering. We should be taking advantage not looking worse than League 1 level.

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4 minutes ago, Xiled said:

The one team in the division who are getting it together at this point in the season.

Everyone else is stuttering. We should be taking advantage not looking worse than League 1 level.

Before yesterday only liverpool were more in form than us in last six games.

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3 minutes ago, hodge said:

Point being how many teams are winning games convincingly this season? How many teams in the pack behind us are winning games convincingly and 'should' be above us? Preston, Swansea and Millwall as the 3 behind us have been just as hit and miss. Its the state of the league this year and its hard to say after 30 games we don't deserve to be where we are, perhaps after 10/15 games but 30 is hard to say that.

Is the point there tho that we are just sitting hoping we fall into the playoffs and we have just as much of a chance to do so as everyone else in the top 12 at the moment with a manager that has no experience in pushing for promotion. Lansdown shows so much ambition off the field but just seems so nervous to shake things up on the field. Would he be so hesitant to change things if we had a different manager.

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1 hour ago, Xiled said:

I've been watching City for nearly 40 years.

The individual ability of our large squad of players is greater than any team performance since we beat West Brom last season and Man Utd the season before.

Some teams create the opposite where the individuals come together to form a disproportionately better team.

This is precisely why we can't use "season on season" improvement as a measure for how well LJ is doing.

During a season when (Brentford aside) most other teams are faltering, we are better placed to take advantage than any other recent season in the Championship.

We need a head coach who sees the strengths of individuals, can bring them together to play as a team and can identify patterns of play that those players can understand and implement. This head coach spins a roulette wheel with players and tactics.

Great post 

But you realise that the head coach has been over achieving as , as somebody laughably claimed , he’s doing it with ‘One hand tied behind his back’

Constantly having to sell his best players......no one else do, do they


As for this awful situation of ‘one hand tied behind your back’ , constantly losing best players

Bryan

Replaced with U21 International,  JD

Flint

Since Flint we’ve signed Kalas, Webster , Williams , ...and now add Benkovic. ..I thought Flint was a ‘donkey’  so surely one of those four can be regarded as a reasonable replacement .......Four of them are full Internationals

 

Webster

Even since Webster we recruited Williams , and now added Bencovic 

 

Pack .....Brownhill

Make no bones about it Lee thought he’d upgraded on Pack by signing Nagy & Massengo plus getting his hands on Kasey Palmer

Hes now been allowed to add another International midfielder to the central midfield ranks

 

Reid

Hes been allowed to sign multiple forwards , including another International in AW and now another International &the current hotshot in the division (Whos decent but isn’t isn’t the messiah that some seem to believe he is)

 

We can currently field a 1-11 and bench of Internationals

We had Five Full Internationals on the bench last night and a £4m Chelsea ‘starlet’ who can’t make the squad 

We have at least two or more players available  in virtually every position that can reasonably be expected to be Championship decent , on paper at least 

When during LJs reign has , due to injuries and availability had to throw in a young player through circumstances rather than choice , as most Clubs have to occasionally .......(MOL the only as far as I recall)

We have a extremely deep squad full of Internationals and a recruited option and options in just about every single role or type of player . 
 

One , the depth and strength of it Id suggest would be the envy of most Championship Clubs

By far the strongest/ deepest squad to utilise , that I’ve ever seen 

So .......this nonsense about one hand tied behind his back ........let’s bury that 

 

As for LJ ,, he’s been part of the process that’s got to this stage (SLs financial backing and some very astute trading pricing  by MA a major part) - , I can see and have seen good things he has done and does, but I also see downsides  

But back to the theory that he’s doing a remarkable job with one hand tied behind is back is utter bullshit and complete nonsense

 

Then I look at Birmingham’s squad, and side on the pitch last night , and see , yet again a side who bossed us at Ashton Gate, and I looked at the complete and utter shambles we had become as the game unraveled.................

 

 

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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4 minutes ago, Xiled said:

The one team in the division who are getting it together at this point in the season.

Everyone else is stuttering. We should be taking advantage not looking worse than League 1 level.

Time to calm down a bit and get some perspective.

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1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

Yes we need to improve as a team. But are the individuals better than the team? Not so sure.

Their first goal - Hunt makes two mistakes, a hopeless punt forward and then stands off the interception - this leaves Dasilva exposed, who is weak in the challenge and then to top it off, Williams strays away from the back line single handily plays Hogan onside. At least 3 individual errors.

The second...well, Weimann.

And the third, an experienced CB and a young premier league quality centre both let a lofted long ball bounce, twice, and then allow a one forward to beat both of them, bouncing off Benkovic like he has the strength of a child. 

Equally so Fam had a couple of very good chances to hit the target and couldn’t. 

Yes the team needs to improve but individual errors are costing us goals at both ends.

 

This. 

I wouldn't say this squad is particularly amazing for this league, as evidenced by our defending and the fact we seem unable to play any sort of quick passing football. 

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Last night for me was hugely disappointing.  To get the boost of a goal in the opening minute and then not execute from there is bloody frustrating.

I generally don’t think we have better players (nor worse either), but we win games as a collective / sum of the parts.

I think playing away suits us, in fact LJ’s 10 minute interview eluded to that in that away you can sometimes just boot the ball away when in trouble, at home you’re expected to do something with it.

If we won most of our away games and drew most our home games we’d have enough points for top 6.  Home supporters might be frustrated, but the objective would be met.

I’m no coach, nor have I done any badges, but I rarely see any pattern to our play at home.  Away from home it’s about staying solid and transition.  Recent wins v Wigan, Reading and QPR have been epitomised by scoring goals in transition, certainly from structured build-up.  When you then take that to AG, the opposition don’t play the way we want.

It’s a big dilemma!

I listened to BBCRB on the way home, and heard, “he set up all wrong”, etc. I saw it more as we didn’t play well, because Birmingham were better.  Even at 1-0 after Weimann had flashed a tough half-volley over the bar, I thought Brum looked very capable of getting back into this.  We never got a handle on Sunjic or Gardner being able to stride onto lay-offs from Jutkiewicz and opening up Bela and Bellingham in 1 on 1s versus our full-backs.  In a 4141 (against a 442) that shouldn’t really happen, given the security Smith should provide.

What I witnessed (second half in particular) was Diedhiou, Paterson, Weimann and Eliasson just occupying their markers in a straight line across the pitch, leaving Massengo to try and shuttle between our defensive line and a “very forward” line.  He had bugger all options.  The midfield 5 became a fragmented couple of individuals (Smith and Massengo) and the other 3 playing alongside Diedhiou.  FWIW I thought Massengo was a positive last night, but he’ll get criticised for being in a midfield that imho didn’t do its job.  Where was Paterson dropping into the hole like he has done recently?  The early goal may have gone to his head because he played too far forward making it difficult to get passes into him.  The same thing I often criticised Brownhill of doing.

LJ has some tough decisions ahead.

The 4141 perfect away....where does that leave Wells? Diedhiou has been great as the lone striker!  What does he do at home?  I think last night proved there is no guarantees with any formation.  I really thought that last night we’d see Brum in two banks of four and we’d have tonnes of possession and not break them down.  Everyone would be bemoaning only one up top.  But the game didn’t play out like that at all.  

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4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Last night for me was hugely disappointing.  To get the boost of a goal in the opening minute and then not execute from there is bloody frustrating.

I generally don’t think we have better players (nor worse either), but we win games as a collective / sum of the parts.

I think playing away suits us, in fact LJ’s 10 minute interview eluded to that in that away you can sometimes just boot the ball away when in trouble, at home you’re expected to do something with it.

If we won most of our away games and drew most our home games we’d have enough points for top 6.  Home supporters might be frustrated, but the objective would be met.

I’m no coach, nor have I done any badges, but I rarely see any pattern to our play at home.  Away from home it’s about staying solid and transition.  Recent wins v Wigan, Reading and QPR have been epitomised by scoring goals in transition, certainly from structured build-up.  When you then take that to AG, the opposition don’t play the way we want.

It’s a big dilemma!

I listened to BBCRB on the way home, and heard, “he set up all wrong”, etc. I saw it more as we didn’t play well, because Birmingham were better.  Even at 1-0 after Weimann had flashed a tough half-volley over the bar, I thought Brum looked very capable of getting back into this.  We never got a handle on Sunjic or Gardner being able to stride onto lay-offs from Jutkiewicz and opening up Bela and Bellingham in 1 on 1s versus our full-backs.  In a 4141 (against a 442) that shouldn’t really happen, given the security Smith should provide.

What I witnessed (second half in particular) was Diedhiou, Paterson, Weimann and Eliasson just occupying their markers in a straight line across the pitch, leaving Massengo to try and shuttle between our defensive line and a “very forward” line.  He had bugger all options.  The midfield 5 became a fragmented couple of individuals (Smith and Massengo) and the other 3 playing alongside Diedhiou.  FWIW I thought Massengo was a positive last night, but he’ll get criticised for being in a midfield that imho didn’t do its job.  Where was Paterson dropping into the hole like he has done recently?  The early goal may have gone to his head because he played too far forward making it difficult to get passes into him.  The same thing I often criticised Brownhill of doing.

LJ has some tough decisions ahead.

The 4141 perfect away....where does that leave Wells? Diedhiou has been great as the lone striker!  What does he do at home?  I think last night proved there is no guarantees with any formation.  I really thought that last night we’d see Brum in two banks of four and we’d have tonnes of possession and not break them down.  Everyone would be bemoaning only one up top.  But the game didn’t play out like that at all.  

Easy for me to say in hindsight- but Birmingham under Clotet this season- despite a lack of Jota and Adams- have been a bit more positive from what I've seen, trying to play a bit more football certainly.

Not saying they're a fantastic side by any stretch- but no guarantees as you rightly say.

Agree on 4-1-4-1 away...but feel it needs tweaking.

For a Plan B but still in that framework, one way to go might be:

Bentley

Back 4

Smith

Weimann Nagy Henriksen Eliasson

                 Wells

Harsh on Diedhiou certainly but this wouldn't be every game, but maybe for games where even on the road we might have more possession, take the initiative- though this is quite rare for us, or has been this season!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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8 hours ago, Xiled said:

180 minutes against Shrewsbury?

No goals. Outplayed. Outfought.

Agreed, but it's not representative of our general performances. I sense your general frustration with things, and I'm with you there. Last night was very disappointing. I'm going to grit my teeth and hope we're up for thing on Wednesday and next Saturday. Nothing is lost or won yet.

Edited by Sleepy1968
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Blame the players. It is easy, they are mid ranking championship lads, so obviously there are better available. Are we out performing the potential of the players available ? Nowhere near. There are fundamental issues with the guidance of BCFC and they need changing asap if SL wants to see a step change in the football club and Prem football. Everything is in place apart from the captain of the ship. 

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