Morrell and Walsh - side by side (by data)

[Davefevs]

Here’s the data for Joe and Liam (Lg1 matches only).

Really good sets of numbers, above Lg1 average in many areas, showing they both have had very good seasons and both have a bit of everything (bar inches!).

Realky hoping new manager gets them firmly entrenched in the first team squad.

 

[Finley_Smith10]

Think if morrell and Walsh were to play together for us it would need to be with a big man and as a 3

although would love to see it happen and be proved wrong, Morrell Walsh and Palmer next season would be very exciting if could work 

[maxjak]

Hopefully see Morell at Wembley in October?  Wouldn't that be cool?

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, Finley_Smith10 said:

Think if morrell and Walsh were to play together for us it would need to be with a big man and as a 3

although would love to see it happen and be proved wrong, Morrell Walsh and Palmer next season would be very exciting if could work 

Don't think Palmer can play in a 3 tbh.

[pride of the west]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s the data for Joe and Liam (Lg1 matches only).

Really good sets of numbers, above Lg1 average in many areas, showing they both have had very good seasons and both have a bit of everything (bar inches!).

Realky hoping new manager gets them firmly entrenched in the first team squad.

 

Is the 'league 1 average' for all players or players in same position? Some of the averages seem off for Central midfielders such as lateral passes, XG and XA. 

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, pride of the west said:

Is the 'league 1 average' for all players or players in same position? Some of the averages seem off for Central midfielders such as lateral passes, XG and XA. 

All players who have played in the position that the chart covers, so in this case “Central Mids”.  Will include players who played in that position, not just their normal position.

If you just asked me the same on twitter, then you’ll know the answer, but here’s the answer if not.

by default I let Tableau decide the scale.  If you set everything at zero on the x axis you can end up with things like pass percentages looking almost identical, whereas a 2% diff from 78% to 80% can show up better if you let Tableau decide the start point of the x axis.

Its a fine balance.

If you want to go to my Tableau page:

https://public.tableau.com/profile/dave.featherstone#!/

you can hover over most data points and a tool tip will show you the actual value.

In my Bristol City Dashboard, if you hover you will generally be presented with a player pic (see example) and some relevant info.  Tableau is bloody clever....and free.  Bit of a learning curve, but I’m too old for R and Python.

 

[Lrrr]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s the data for Joe and Liam (Lg1 matches only).

Really good sets of numbers, above Lg1 average in many areas, showing they both have had very good seasons and both have a bit of everything (bar inches!).

Realky hoping new manager gets them firmly entrenched in the first team squad.

 

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Takes one to know one

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Takes one to know one

[RedRoss]

Thanks for sharing the stats really interesting. Of course they don't tell us everything but they definitely back up the stellar reports from Coventry and Lincoln respectively. Shows they both excel in most metrics for their different roles against the average L1 players.

I'm really excited about these two and hope whoever comes in gives them a chance to succeed.

We do need to maybe balance out the midfield with some height if we go 3 in the middle or can we use the height at the back if we use 3 cb's and switch between DM and CB to challenge headers in the middle. Or can we just use them and knock it about in a 2 man pairing? Good dilemma with the lowering of revenue next year to have these already on our books. 

Although Koreys done well for us to a degree this season and built some past memories I just feel Morrell could take his role more effectively. Obviously time will tell.

[James54De]

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Interested to see them together.

But the way Korey looked recently I would go with him and Walsh. Or maybe all 3.

I would like us to bring in one more natural holding midfielder to compete with Korey.

Not sure what the plan will be with Massengo. Maybe even more advanced like he plays for France. Not sure how good he may be there.

Nagy I'd let go. Sell or loan out. Just don't think we would need him with Walsh, Morrell and Korey too. All very small.

I'd much rather Nagy be here next season than Korey, has a much higher ceiling and isn't as limited as Smith. I think Smith will be on his way this summer, just can't see a new manager being at all sentimental.

[reddoh]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

All players who have played in the position that the chart covers, so in this case “Central Mids”.  Will include players who played in that position, not just their normal position.

If you just asked me the same on twitter, then you’ll know the answer, but here’s the answer if not.

by default I let Tableau decide the scale.  If you set everything at zero on the x axis you can end up with things like pass percentages looking almost identical, whereas a 2% diff from 78% to 80% can show up better if you let Tableau decide the start point of the x axis.

Its a fine balance.

If you want to go to my Tableau page:

https://public.tableau.com/profile/dave.featherstone#!/

you can hover over most data points and a tool tip will show you the actual value.

In my Bristol City Dashboard, if you hover you will generally be presented with a player pic (see example) and some relevant info.  Tableau is bloody clever....and free.  Bit of a learning curve, but I’m too old for R and Python.

 

Do you hail from up north and do you prefer three tall center backs?

[ExiledAjax]

@Davefevs Lovely old stats as ever. I don't know what Tableau is but I went on it and clicked around. Ended up looking at this.

To me it looks as though if measured by raw pass accuracy (as I have this table sorted), and forward pass accuracy, Walsh and Morrell are perhaps not so much better that what we already have. Furthermore, where they stand out - in sheer number of forward passes and number of passes - is this not likely because of the systems they've played in this season and the teams they've been in? It suggests to me that had you lifted say, Adam Nagy, out of our team and given him a season under Robins at Coventry - then he'd be pumping out Walsh like numbers. Likewise had Walsh had a whole season playing Johnson Ball he'd be hitting only 30 passes per 90, with fewer than 10 going forward.

I guess what I see in this table is little evidence that they will be the saviours of our midfield that some hope they will...unless we get a manager in who encourages a passing game that encourages forward passing.

To my eye the stand out guy in the table above is James Morton. Basically doing 61 passes a game, almost a third of which are forward, and yet maintaining an overall success rate of nearly 85%!?!? Cracking stats across the board and yet playing in an FGR team that I haven't heard much about, and has been receiving limited plaudits. Could he be a dark horse for a CM spot next year under the right manager?

As an aside, what exactly is the "smart passes" metric that's sat at the end there?

 

[Davefevs]

 

46 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

To me it looks as though if measured by raw pass accuracy (as I have this table sorted), and forward pass accuracy, Walsh and Morrell are perhaps not so much better that what we already have.
The joy of data!!  This is where those watching either live or video will start to differentiate.  The numbers are useful to check what you see with your eyes.  There are so many other passing metrics that can be used.  I only pay for fairly standard data.  I’d love to get my hands on the x y coordinates of both where pass was made and pass was received (or failed), but that is costly...I started to try and map it manually, but I don’t have the patience unlike @Lrrrwho’s happy to watch video back and work out positions on the pitch.

Furthermore, where they stand out - in sheer number of forward passes and number of passes - is this not likely because of the systems they've played in this season and the teams they've been in? It suggests to me that had you lifted say, Adam Nagy, out of our team and given him a season under Robins at Coventry - then he'd be pumping out Walsh like numbers.

Agree, I suspect he would too.  There is data like average pass length too.

Likewise had Walsh had a whole season playing Johnson Ball he'd be hitting only 30 passes per 90, with fewer than 10 going forward.

Yep, that’s why I’m really holding on getting over excited by Walsh.  Don’t get me wrong, he has ability, but the Championship is a different beast to Lg1.

I guess what I see in this table is little evidence that they will be the saviours of our midfield that some hope they will...unless we get a manager in who encourages a passing game that encourages forward passing.

I’m pretty open to see what happens.  Most of us would think a 532/5212 that had a midfield 3 that had one DM (Korey) and two very attacking based players would be kamikaze.  But Weimann and Paterson proved that it can work with plan and instruction.  It’s why I don’t get too fussed about formation and although I used the term “DM”, I actually really dislike the football manager / FIFA jargon.  My Joe is always saying things like I’ve just signed a CAM or a RCB on FIFA!  I still work in pounds, shillings and pence, or Defenders, Midfielders and Forwards.

To my eye the stand out guy in the table above is James Morton. Basically doing 61 passes a game, almost a third of which are forward, and yet maintaining an overall success rate of nearly 85%!?!? Cracking stats across the board and yet playing in an FGR team that I haven't heard much about, and has been receiving limited plaudits. Could he be a dark horse for a CM spot next year under the right manager?

yep, not seen him at all, other than very brief FGR highlights on Quest, and certainly not enough to give you a view of his game.

As an aside, what exactly is the "smart passes" metric that's sat at the end there?

from Wyscout data dictionary:

It is for significative pass or smart pass in general. Something more than a simple pass, not so easy to be done. There has to be some idea in the pass, something creative, when the player is cutting the lines and winning some advantage for his teammates with this pass, leading them in good position to attack. The pass should be between 2-3 opposite players.

 

 

Not sure what happened to the rest of the stuff I typed.  DM me if you want to chat about Tableau!!

[ExiledAjax]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It is for significative pass or smart pass in general. Something more than a simple pass, not so easy to be done. There has to be some idea in the pass, something creative, when the player is cutting the lines and winning some advantage for his teammates with this pass, leading them in good position to attack. The pass should be between 2-3 opposite players.

 

So it's a packing metric. Get Jens on the phone.

[RedM]

6 hours ago, Lrrr said:

I was always taught ‘if you are going to do something, do it well’ and to be fair @Davefevsdoes.

[irishreds]

Are you Joe Morrell's agent. He made his Bristol City debut 7 years ago and has made 1 Championship appearance. Didn't Johnson sub him at half-time in his last FA Cup appearance. If Tinnion has made the case for JM perviously then LJ/DH/JM didn't listen.   

The new manager (hopefully Hughton) will give ALL the squad an opportunity, including Walsh (who might be a better prospect) and Morrell.

The aim for the new manager will be top 6, so are they good enough in your opinion to get City promoted to the Prem? If Gerrard is appointed we might get Herbie Kane back.

 

[cidered abroad]

7 hours ago, James54De said:

I'd much rather Nagy be here next season than Korey, has a much higher ceiling and isn't as limited as Smith. I think Smith will be on his way this summer, just can't see a new manager being at all sentimental.

I agree with your thoughts on Korey. He has been a superb performer in his time here. But since his two major injuries, he isn't as consistent as previously. He may get that level back but somehow I believe that new blood is needed to move us upwards.

So to the thread.

Morrell and Walsh have a couple of similarities. I considere that both are developing into good Championship midfielders. Both are not the tallest in the club. There the similarities end.

Morrell is good enough to be our defensive anchorman.

Walsh is developing into the midfield "tin opener". The one who will create the openings for us to win games that at the moment we are sadly lacking.

We should be building our team around these talented players instead of regarding them as bit players.

[IAmNick]

Quick (mostly unrelated) question as we're discussion young midfielders.

Earlier this season we played what I want to say was a fairly unexciting team (think Luton, Blackburn, Millwall etc.) at home. They had a young lad playing in midfield for them who can only have been around 17 or 18 with longish hair in a bit of a bowl cut or something. He was absolutely excellent in my opinion, and got subbed off in the second half to great applause from the away fans and gave them a big over-excited wave.

Anyone have any idea what I'm talking about? I thought he was fantastic for such a young lad.

[Davefevs]

Molumby of Millwall (on loan from Brighton).

[Simon bristol]

8 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

So it's a packing metric. Get Jens on the phone.

Like hed know!!

[redrob]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Molumby of Millwall (on loan from Brighton).

Or was it Jake Peck? 

[redrob]

1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

Quick (mostly unrelated) question as we're discussion young midfielders.

Earlier this season we played what I want to say was a fairly unexciting team (think Luton, Blackburn, Millwall etc.) at home. They had a young lad playing in midfield for them who can only have been around 17 or 18 with longish hair in a bit of a bowl cut or something. He was absolutely excellent in my opinion, and got subbed off in the second half to great applause from the away fans and gave them a big over-excited wave.

Anyone have any idea what I'm talking about? I thought he was fantastic for such a young lad.

When you say 'they' which of the teams listed did you mean? 

[Simon bristol]

2 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

I agree with your thoughts on Korey. He has been a superb performer in his time here. But since his two major injuries, he isn't as consistent as previously. He may get that level back but somehow I believe that new blood is needed to move us upwards.

So to the thread.

Morrell and Walsh have a couple of similarities. I considere that both are developing into good Championship midfielders. Both are not the tallest in the club. There the similarities end.

Morrell is good enough to be our defensive anchorman.

Walsh is developing into the midfield "tin opener". The one who will create the openings for us to win games that at the moment we are sadly lacking.

We should be building our team around these talented players instead of regarding them as bit players.

In the ideal world i would agree,,, but having both those 2 come in to what is hopefully a championship play off level team after spending the year in league 1, i cant see a new manager staking his job on putting both in at this point...

they are both good young players, but if they werent ours already i wouldn’t necessarily think we would be looking at signing both of them permanently,,, maybe walsh after his season?
 

one of the major mistakes johnson made is having so many smaller ball playing midfielders in his squad without some bite, to the extent where holden is playing weimann there now, who has some level of physicality but is playing out of position and while paterson might be considered by some as a midfielder, hes arguably a number 10 or winger, even if he has been one of our better players since the season restarted. 
 

for both to be in a first choice starting 11 in midfield shows how badly our midfield has been messed up by the old management team

 

[Lrrr]

43 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Like hed know!!

You'd hope one of the creators would...

[RedNachos]

18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s the data for Joe and Liam (Lg1 matches only).

Really good sets of numbers, above Lg1 average in many areas, showing they both have had very good seasons and both have a bit of everything (bar inches!).

Realky hoping new manager gets them firmly entrenched in the first team squad.

 

Weakness is clearly aerial duels, heading and so on. Would Ty Bakinson be the answer?

[IAmNick]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Molumby of Millwall (on loan from Brighton).

Think he was younger than that.

45 minutes ago, redrob said:

When you say 'they' which of the teams listed did you mean? 

Not sure - that's the problem.

Anyway, I'll have a look around - didn't mean to derail Dave's thread too much.

[RedRoss]

3 hours ago, irishreds said:

Are you Joe Morrell's agent. He made his Bristol City debut 7 years ago and has made 1 Championship appearance. Didn't Johnson sub him at half-time in his last FA Cup appearance. If Tinnion has made the case for JM perviously then LJ/DH/JM didn't listen.   

The new manager (hopefully Hughton) will give ALL the squad an opportunity, including Walsh (who might be a better prospect) and Morrell.

The aim for the new manager will be top 6, so are they good enough in your opinion to get City promoted to the Prem? If Gerrard is appointed we might get Herbie Kane back.

 

You've undermined your own argument. You mention the hope for Morrell maybe not being good enough for top 6 due to the long time between his debut at 16 which I can reason with but then mention Herbie Kane who's has 7 appearances for a struggling Hull City team who got beat 8 nil by Wigan (he's injured now but was in and out the team before) now I'm not saying he's not a good player but hardly less risk than Morrell at this stage.

I'd also say don't write a player off due to their slower progress for development, recent history tells us that with Bobby Reid.

[IAmNick]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Molumby of Millwall (on loan from Brighton).

 

1 hour ago, redrob said:

Or was it Jake Peck? 

I was thinking of Luca Connell, from the Bolton FA cup game last year, he was 17.

Years blurring together, must be getting old...! 

[Davefevs]

55 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Think he was younger than that.

Not sure - that's the problem.

Anyway, I'll have a look around - didn't mean to derail Dave's thread too much.

Gallagher at Charlton (on loan from Chelsea, now on loan at Swansea)?

50 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

You've undermined your own argument. You mention the hope for Morrell maybe not being good enough for top 6 due to the long time between his debut at 16 which I can reason with but then mention Herbie Kane who's has 7 appearances for a struggling Hull City team who got beat 8 nil by Wigan (he's injured now but was in and out the team before) now I'm not saying he's not a good player but hardly less risk than Morrell at this stage.

I'd also say don't write a player off due to their slower progress for development, recent history tells us that with Bobby Reid.

Very different midfielders too.  I’ve watched a significant amount of Morrell, even Wales age-group games not just the recent full-international stuff.  He is a very capable player.  Not seen much of Kane.  Seen enough of Walsh.  If we can find a way of getting him (Walsh) on the ball (that’s down to both him and his teammates) he can succeed.  That’s my consistent reservation that stops me getting excited...yet.  I just want to wait and see.  I liken it a bit to Freeman, who looked so classy in Lg1 in 14/15, but struggled massively playing no10 in the champ.  It was all too tight for him.  I wish Cotts had played him LCM alongside Pack and Smith rather than in the hole.  I think he’d have had that little bit more time on the ball.