The Lee Johnson Thread (Merged)

[Rebounder]

4 minutes ago, bris red said:

Hahahah **** me what an interview. My god i am glad we sacked him, enjoy Sunderland fans I genuinely stopped watching after 2 mins.. what utter drivel!!

Sunderland fans responded well on twitter during my flick through....

[Harry]

The vitriol on this thread is something else. Anyone would think LJ had taken us to 3 consecutive relegations rather than 3 consecutive improvements. 

Yes, he ultimately failed to get us to the playoffs and rightly lost his job, but jeez......

[Leveller]

4 hours ago, Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan said:

Well, Sunderland fans liked it 

https://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/new-managers-reaction.1535758/

I thought you were being sarcastic, but actually they were impressed ...

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, bris red said:

Hahahah **** me what an interview. My god i am glad we sacked him, enjoy Sunderland fans I genuinely stopped watching after 2 mins.. what utter drivel!!

Criticising an interview you didn’t watch even half of!

[Red-Robbo]

Look, I'll be honest here. I very rarely listen to managers' after-match interviews.

Why?

Because they tell you very little you didn't know about what went on if you watched the game.

They tend (90% of managers) to fall in to two categories:

1 )  The string of cliches plus added poor diction: "We was not at our best, but at the end of the day, I'm very 'appy wiv 'ow the lads stepped up to the plate..."etc etc.

2 ) The Lee Johnson style manager bullshit-baffles-brains stuff + a few cliches:  "We need to be busy bees and find that synergy. It's a matter of letting the players know what we want from them and making that cultural change..." etc etc.

I don't find style #2 any more cringeworthy than style #1.

Interviews immediately after games from managers rarely tell you anything. Maybe you get a smidgeon of preliminary news about an injured player. You might hear why he never played so and so. Usually, it's waffle, self-serving nonsense, flat jokes and uncomfortable silences. 

I think the only Radio Bris post-match interview I really enjoyed was when Graham Coughlan suddenly announced he was thinking of leaving the Gas. When they were in a play-off place. To join a lower league club. I was driving along the South Bristol Link Road on my way back from the Gate when that aired and I nearly had to pull over from laughing.

[Bristol Oil Services]

8 hours ago, Harry said:

The vitriol on this thread is something else. Anyone would think LJ had taken us to 3 consecutive relegations rather than 3 consecutive improvements. 

Yes, he ultimately failed to get us to the playoffs and rightly lost his job, but jeez......

The three - or four, according to @Hampshire Red  - "consecutive improvements" is statistically correct but over-emphasised now (in my humble); 2016/17, improved by two points and just the one place up the table (17th from 18th) on the season before.

Johnson struggled enormously in his first full season. With six games left, we were one point above the drop. All this with a squad that year that was a big upgrade on the squad Cotterill had in the first half of 15/16.

I would say it was:

Two good seasons of clear improvement - 17/18, 18/19.

One poor season of (statistically) marginal improvement - 16/17.

One season of stagnation (being kind) - 19/20.

And only one season where the football was (almost) regularly enjoyable - 17/18.

We never got anywhere near the play-offs in reality, though. It might be argued that it was a bit of a wasted opportunity (or an important stepping stone on the way to as yet unseen glory to come. Time will tell).

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

The three - or four, according to @Hampshire Red  - "consecutive improvements" is statistically correct but over-emphasised now (in my humble); 2016/17, improved by two points and just the one place up the table (17th from 18th) on the season before.

Johnson struggled enormously in his first full season. With six games left, we were one point above the drop. All this with a squad that year that was a big upgrade on the squad Cotterill had in the first half of 15/16.

I would say it was:

Two good seasons of clear improvement - 17/18, 18/19.

One poor season of (statistically) marginal improvement - 16/17.

One season of stagnation (being kind) - 19/20.

And only one season where the football was (almost) regularly enjoyable - 17/18.

We never got anywhere near the play-offs in reality, though. It might be argued that it was a bit of a wasted opportunity (or an important stepping stone on the way to as yet unseen glory to come. Time will tell).

Yep. But is it worth the vitriol from some, akin to him having taken us to the conference or something? 
I’d say his tenure was decent. Certainly not spectacular. But the way some are acting on this thread, it’s like he’s a Pulis/Osman love child! 

[Phileas Fogg]

24 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yep. But is it worth the vitriol from some, akin to him having taken us to the conference or something? 
I’d say his tenure was decent. Certainly not spectacular. But the way some are acting on this thread, it’s like he’s a Pulis/Osman love child! 

I've never quite got my head around the vitriol from some. I genuinely can't understand why there'd be such strong negative feeling towards a guy who actually cares about the club and did his best. Most managers see a manager gig as a job - as you'd expect. LJ came here as almost a supporter of the club. Anyone would think he'd come in and tried to sabotage the club.  Also the repeated 'he wasn't a very good player' criticism - totally irrelevant. 

Ultimately we didn't quite make the playoffs, but he left us with a platform for someone else to come in and do so. The board see that man as Holden, hopefully they're correct. 

[Phileas Fogg]

Watching the interview now. I don't see what the fuss is about, put yourself in the shoes of a Sunderland fan and it would probably sound quite positive and galvanising.

• Personalities in the dressing room (something Sunderland fans have talked about at length)
• He wants bright positive football and winning games (something you'd want to hear from a new manager)
• He discusses what he wants to improve on (talking about zones, movement in the box etc)
• He talks about belief leaving the players (a common complaint from fans of a struggling team)
• Earning the trust of the fans (again, something fans in that situation would want to hear)

He overspeaks a bit and mentions a few superfluous things, but we're conditioned to that and our fans grew tired of it after 4 seasons. For Sunderland fans, that's still a novelty so probably isn't quite as grating.

I thought it was quite a positive interview really, the truth is that clearly several on this thread have watched the interview but have already decided what their views on it will be and have then sought to affirm that from the interview. 

[Fordy62]

9 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I've never quite got my head around the vitriol from some. I genuinely can't understand why there'd be such strong negative feeling towards a guy who actually cares about the club and did his best. Most managers see a manager gig as a job - as you'd expect. LJ came here as almost a supporter of the club. Anyone would think he'd come in and tried to sabotage the club.  Also the repeated 'he wasn't a very good player' criticism - totally irrelevant. 

Ultimately we didn't quite make the playoffs, but he left us with a platform for someone else to come in and do so. The board see that man as Holden, hopefully they're correct. 

I’ve explained it before, but it’s a combination of two things;

 

1. The wholly different playing fields that Cotts (who actually deserved the type of loyalty that LJ got from SL) and LJ operated on. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Cotts gave us the best we’d ever seen and he was so badly treated. LJ was treated like a love child. I know that’s not necessarily LJ’s fault tho. 
 

2. LJ’s sheer arrogance. I don’t mind arrogance when it’s deserved (think Floyd Mayweather or Shane Warne), but when everything you have has been handed to you on a plate, it’s a time to be slightly more humble. He just easy to dislike for me because if it. 

[054123]

I hate to say it, as I love a good discussion, but time let it go everybody. 

It no longer has any bearing on any of us.

[Lrrr]

The stats from their game yesterday is a literal definition of ‘getting football manager’d’

[Phileas Fogg]

13 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I’ve explained it before, but it’s a combination of two things;

I think there are many factors, both things you mention have an impact. 

Quote

1. The wholly different playing fields that Cotts (who actually deserved the type of loyalty that LJ got from SL) and LJ operated on. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Cotts gave us the best we’d ever seen and he was so badly treated. LJ was treated like a love child. I know that’s not necessarily LJ’s fault tho. 

Agreed. I think history has been pretty kind to Cotterill with how he is remembered. His reputation with our fans, retrospectively, has grown since LJ was here. At the time of his sacking plenty of us (myself included) felt it was the right call. 

As you say though - there's the enigma of what happened during that summer window. At the time, plenty were tired of what was perceived as him being petulant - but perhaps was just frustration given the whole situation. That seemed to leak out in bit and pieces over the following months. 

Quote

2. LJ’s sheer arrogance. I don’t mind arrogance when it’s deserved (think Floyd Mayweather or Shane Warne), but when everything you have has been handed to you on a plate, it’s a time to be slightly more humble. He just easy to dislike for me because if it. 

I think both of those are factors. I also think also there are these.. 

3. LJ reminds people of their bosses at work who they feel have been promoted above their station. Buzzwords, clichés.. People go to football to escape from things like work, they don't want to be reminded of a middle manager who they think is inept. 

4. I also think there's some who just can't separate their views on him as a player from LJ as a manager. At the time he was here as a player, he was really divisive. He used to give the fans a bit of stick back too, I remember Leyton Orient away (06 or 07) he had a bit of a go at the away end. There was definitely a hangover from that. 

Despite all this though, I'm still baffled by how personal the dislike of LJ seems to be. Do you think it goes beyond what is reasonable of a former manager?

[Fordy62]

24 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think there are many factors, both things you mention have an impact. 

Agreed. I think history has been pretty kind to Cotterill with how he is remembered. His reputation with our fans, retrospectively, has grown since LJ was here. At the time of his sacking plenty of us (myself included) felt it was the right call. 

As you say though - there's the enigma of what happened during that summer window. At the time, plenty were tired of what was perceived as him being petulant - but perhaps was just frustration given the whole situation. That seemed to leak out in bit and pieces over the following months. 

I think both of those are factors. I also think also there are these.. 

3. LJ reminds people of their bosses at work who they feel have been promoted above their station. Buzzwords, clichés.. People go to football to escape from things like work, they don't want to be reminded of a middle manager who they think is inept. 

4. I also think there's some who just can't separate their views on him as a player from LJ as a manager. At the time he was here as a player, he was really divisive. He used to give the fans a bit of stick back too, I remember Leyton Orient away (06 or 07) he had a bit of a go at the away end. There was definitely a hangover from that. 

Despite all this though, I'm still baffled by how personal the dislike of LJ seems to be. Do you think it goes beyond what is reasonable of a former manager?

See the difference with LJ and normal managers is that normal managers get the sack when they under perform. LJ didn’t. On several occasions. And that’s in stark contrast with the man who actually did deserve the backing. 

If LJ had been sacked when he first deserved to be, I don’t think I’d have any issue at all. His golden boy treatment while here leaves a very bitter taste. 

As is very obvious, I feel Cotts deserved better treatment. And whereas you might reasonably argue that at the end he may well have deserved the boot, LJ served up much worse in his time that deserved the same action. 

[Phileas Fogg]

10 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

See the difference with LJ and normal managers is that normal managers get the sack when they under perform. LJ didn’t. On several occasions. And that’s in stark contrast with the man who actually did deserve the backing. 

If LJ had been sacked when he first deserved to be, I don’t think I’d have any issue at all. His golden boy treatment while here leaves a very bitter taste. 

Agreed. I think ultimately Lansdown was determined for ‘his’ appointment to work. LJ is also a mate of JL which makes it even more tricky. That’s the issue when you mix friendship and business.

Maybe there’s a bit of an ego battle at boardroom level - Dawe’s appointment of Cotterill (if you believe that) was a massive success for the first 2 seasons. But he wasn’t a Lansdown sort of guy in the slightest. My hunch is Lansdown never really wanted him despite the success.

My issue though is how personal the criticism is. It goes beyond anything I’ve ever seen for a former manager - genuinely don’t understand it. The valid criticisms I get - but plenty of the criticism LJ receives goes far beyond what’s valid and reasonable IMO.

[2015]

21 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

How anyone can have a bad word to say about LJ I don't know. 

Literally blows my mind.

Not surprised though.

His football bored my brains out for about 2 years. Did an ok job, might be a nice guy, but he was deservedly sacked

[Fordy62]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Agreed. I think ultimately Lansdown was determined for ‘his’ appointment to work. LJ is also a mate of JL which makes it even more tricky. That’s the issue when you mix friendship and business.

Maybe there’s a bit of an ego battle at boardroom - Dawe’s appointment of Cotterill (if you believe that) was a massive success. But he wasn’t a Lansdown sort of guy in the slightest.

My issue though is how personal the criticism is. It goes beyond anything I’ve ever seen for a former manager - genuinely don’t understand it. The valid criticisms I get - but plenty of the criticism LJ receives goes far beyond what’s valid and reasonable IMO.

Agreed. Whereas I’m not a fan in the slightest, you’ll never have seen me go along with the poisonous dwarf/little Lee jibes. 

I do however think he’s a pillock. 

[Harry]

43 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I’ve explained it before, but it’s a combination of two things;

 

1. The wholly different playing fields that Cotts (who actually deserved the type of loyalty that LJ got from SL) and LJ operated on. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Cotts gave us the best we’d ever seen and he was so badly treated. LJ was treated like a love child. I know that’s not necessarily LJ’s fault tho. 
 

2. LJ’s sheer arrogance. I don’t mind arrogance when it’s deserved (think Floyd Mayweather or Shane Warne), but when everything you have has been handed to you on a plate, it’s a time to be slightly more humble. He just easy to dislike for me because if it. 

 

10 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

See the difference with LJ and normal managers is that normal managers get the sack when they under perform. LJ didn’t. On several occasions. And that’s in stark contrast with the man who actually did deserve the backing. 

If LJ had been sacked when he first deserved to be, I don’t think I’d have any issue at all. His golden boy treatment while here leaves a very bitter taste. 

As is very obvious, I feel Cotts deserved better treatment. And whereas you might reasonably argue that at the end he may well have deserved the boot, LJ served up much worse in his time that deserved the same action. 

None of your negativities toward LJ can necessarily be classed as LJ’s fault. If you are angry because you think he should’ve been sacked earlier, then perhaps your ire should be directed toward Steve Lansdown, rather than LJ. 
The only thing you seem to be against which is LJ’s own responsibility is this so called “arrogance” you mention. Yet, I’d argue that most of the football world would quite comprehensively state that Mr Cotterill is also arrogant. Perhaps it comes with the territory of being a football manager who is confident and believes in their ability? 
I find the obsession with LJ quite sad to be honest. He did a decent if unspectacular job, probably could and should have pushed us on a bit further, but based on wage budget, actually slightly overperformed in the division. 
Cotterill led us to League 1 success, but then his time was up. LJ made gradual improvements and established us as a top 12 champ club, and then his time was up. 
Those who continually seek to compare LJ and SC, I feel tend to be those who were anti-LJ as a player, and that says it all really. 

[NickJ]

53 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I’ve explained it before, but it’s a combination of two things;

 

1. The wholly different playing fields that Cotts (who actually deserved the type of loyalty that LJ got from SL) and LJ operated on. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Cotts gave us the best we’d ever seen and he was so badly treated. LJ was treated like a love child. I know that’s not necessarily LJ’s fault tho. 
 

2. LJ’s sheer arrogance. I don’t mind arrogance when it’s deserved (think Floyd Mayweather or Shane Warne), but when everything you have has been handed to you on a plate, it’s a time to be slightly more humble. He just easy to dislike for me because if it. 

Agreed 100%.

43 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think there are many factors, both things you mention have an impact. 

Agreed. I think history has been pretty kind to Cotterill with how he is remembered. His reputation with our fans, retrospectively, has grown since LJ was here. At the time of his sacking plenty of us (myself included) felt it was the right call. 

As you say though - there's the enigma of what happened during that summer window. At the time, plenty were tired of what was perceived as him being petulant - but perhaps was just frustration given the whole situation. That seemed to leak out in bit and pieces over the following months. 

I think both of those are factors. I also think also there are these.. 

3. LJ reminds people of their bosses at work who they feel have been promoted above their station. Buzzwords, clichés.. People go to football to escape from things like work, they don't want to be reminded of a middle manager who they think is inept. 

4. I also think there's some who just can't separate their views on him as a player from LJ as a manager. At the time he was here as a player, he was really divisive. He used to give the fans a bit of stick back too, I remember Leyton Orient away (06 or 07) he had a bit of a go at the away end. There was definitely a hangover from that. 

Despite all this though, I'm still baffled by how personal the dislike of LJ seems to be. Do you think it goes beyond what is reasonable of a former manager?

Number 3 - yes he really is David Brent. The fans barred lockdown games with the on the pitch breaks demonstrated to me what a poor man manager he is. Spent most of those times ranting at the ref while meanwhile Holden very noticeably took on the job of player motivation and team organisation.

Number 4 - I was there. His response to City fans cheering him being subbed off was a non complimentary hand gesture in their direction.

Very easy to dislike him after that.

[Phileas Fogg]

6 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Agreed 100%.

Number 3 - yes he really is David Brent. The fans barred lockdown games with the on the pitch breaks demonstrated to me what a poor man manager he is. Spent most of those times ranting at the ref while meanwhile Holden very noticeably took on the job of player motivation and team organisation.

Number 4 - I was there. His response to City fans cheering him being subbed off was a non complimentary hand gesture in their direction.

Very easy to dislike him after that.

I was there too at that Orient game. Can’t even remember the score, New Year’s Day I think. I can’t remember that incident well though, away support right behind the dugouts.

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, Harry said:

Yep. But is it worth the vitriol from some, akin to him having taken us to the conference or something? 
I’d say his tenure was decent. Certainly not spectacular. But the way some are acting on this thread, it’s like he’s a Pulis/Osman love child! 

For me, LJ did good things, did crap things.  He gave great insight interviews (I enjoyed them)m he did bad post-match interviews (left me wondering what I’ve just watched).  He did good recruitment, he did bad recruitment.

Any argument any fan has over LJ can be argued the opposite way in the main.

I was fed up with him by the end, but as Monty Python was wrong, he was neither the messiah or a naughty boy.  He was something in between.  I think many fans get on his back, me included, because he gave the impression of being better than he was.

That’s my honest view, I don’t mind accepting that some of my negative comments come through because of how he came across, but I’ve been pretty consistent in arguing that he wasn’t crap either.

[Red-Robbo]

5 hours ago, Harry said:

 it’s like he’s a Pulis/Osman love child! 

 

Blimey! That's something I wouldn't want to see.

A little scowling bloke with a baseball cap and a pacamac, with a bent hooter and a mullet. 

[Harry]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

For me, LJ did good things, did crap things.  He gave great insight interviews (I enjoyed them)m he did bad post-match interviews (left me wondering what I’ve just watched).  He did good recruitment, he did bad recruitment.

Any argument any fan has over LJ can be argued the opposite way in the main.

I was fed up with him by the end, but as Monty Python was wrong, he was neither the messiah or a naughty boy.  He was something in between.  I think many fans get on his back, me included, because he gave the impression of being better than he was.

That’s my honest view, I don’t mind accepting that some of my negative comments come through because of how he came across, but I’ve been pretty consistent in arguing that he wasn’t crap either.

Yep. And those are fair and reasonable judgements Dave. 
It’s some of the others on there with what appears to be an irrational hatred, that I don’t fathom. 

[1960maaan]

Hhmmmm, Johnson (the sequel ) , definitely divides opinion .

For my 5p's worth.
I was underwhelmed when he joined, he liked throwing players under the bus, rarely accepted blame, could talk in riddles, post match pressers could be baffling, collected players like a drunken magpie . 

But also, got us to a major Semi Final, had a spell playing THE BEST football I had ever seen from a City side, got us higher up the League year on year, when focused signed some very good players.

Like most managers, he did good, he did bad. I think he should have gone earlier, I also think if it were any other club he would have gone years ago.

If you miss his rambling interviews, try this. I struggled to stick with it. Sometimes it's good to keep things simple 

 

 

[Major Isewater]

7 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I've never quite got my head around the vitriol from some. I genuinely can't understand why there'd be such strong negative feeling towards a guy who actually cares about the club and did his best. Most managers see a manager gig as a job - as you'd expect. LJ came here as almost a supporter of the club. Anyone would think he'd come in and tried to sabotage the club.  Also the repeated 'he wasn't a very good player' criticism - totally irrelevant. 

Ultimately we didn't quite make the playoffs, but he left us with a platform for someone else to come in and do so. The board see that man as Holden, hopefully they're correct. 

Can we also add that LJ could have quietly continued to be very highly paid by BCFC , like certain other managers have , but has braved the challenge again with a new club.

 I agree that a lot of what he says appears to be hogwash and he needs to back up all this stuff with some achievements on the pitch. 
 

Good luck to the bloke, he gave all he could to get us success but ultimately failed.

[Lew-T]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

Yep. And those are fair and reasonable judgements Dave. 
It’s some of the others on there with what appears to be an irrational hatred, that I don’t fathom. 

Mate, you’re making it out that some fans are making death threats towards LJ on this thread. 
 

Let it go.

[Wrongagain]

Listening to that interview sounds like he may have learnt something! Started off by explaining that his post game comments should be the exact opposite of what we endured - but quickly forgot how he started and then descended into meaningless waffle. Will he become a shining light up north? Doubt it - Geordies don’t suffer fools!

[TonyTonyTony]

6 minutes ago, dave36 said:

Geordies

Mackems ain’t Geordies

[Hampshire Red]

Lj was brilliant at picking and developing young players - too many to mention but to say he 'threw them under the bus' is simply incorrect. Semenyo is one of those he threw in-at Leeds when we lost. 

Lj is gone: we are unlikely to finish higher than he averaged but, for me, we should just accept DH is the guy we now support. Despite horror tactics(subs) yesterday, Lj also made a handful of mistakes in 4 yrs so let's get behind the manager and team on Wednesday to help beat Blackburn

[redsquirrel]

he did ok here results wise ,just couldnt find a way to improve,    players got fed up of same shit different week and that was that. thats the way i saw it anyway