Bournemouth sack Tindall

[Sturny]

Harsh. But sometimes football success requires it. 

[Top Robin]

3 hours ago, harvey54 said:

I was being facetious

Don't worry mate...made me laugh. 

Some people are very sensitive on here

3 hours ago, Red Army 75 said:

Paul Cook IMO could do a decent job at Bournemouth 

Shut up...we want him! 

[Alessandro]

1 hour ago, phantom said:

Interesting comments on talksport this morning 

Wrong to appoint from within 

Would have been same voice as previous manager 

Owner pushed appointment from within 

Poor recruitment over past 12 months 

Let's be honest, how often does an assistant take-over from their sacked manager and it is a success?

Very few examples I can think of. Yes, assistants going on to be decent managers, but rarely at the same club.

EDIT - Had a look and there is one that stuck out, a certain Mr Hughton at Newcastle....

[Floatn Over]

Pulis lives down the road in Sandbanks and Woodgate was at Boro 

Surely they wouldn’t would they ? But panicking leads to odd decisions.

[Taz]

26 minutes ago, phantom said:

I stand to be corrected but I always believed a rolling 12 month contract basically meant it was an open ended contract, but if the Manager is to be let go they have a 12 month period to be paid off.

The whole point of it being "rolling" is that there are no fixed dates

Correct. If the contract is cancelled by us, we have to pay 12 months compensation. If (for example) Bournemouth want to take Holden off our hands, we will then be due 12 months compensation from Bournemouth.

There is no expiration on it, only when replaced with a different contract.

[robin_unreliant]

Good to see owners who don't just settle for mediocre. SL just seems happy to potter along in mid-table, despite spending eye watering amounts to get there. 

[IAmNick]

10 minutes ago, Taz said:

Correct. If the contract is cancelled by us, we have to pay 12 months compensation. If (for example) Bournemouth want to take Holden off our hands, we will then be due 12 months compensation from Bournemouth.

There is no expiration on it, only when replaced with a different contract.

That is not correct, @Sheltons Army is right - look here: https://www.mikethornton.xyz/rolling-employment-contracts/

"The 12 Month Fixed-term Contract is well understood by most people to be one that ends automatically when the season ends but many are confused when the word “Rolling” is included. Many users of social media have said that they interpret a 12 Month Rolling Contract to be a standard Indefinite-term contract as defined in the first section above and the notice period for either party is 12 months, rather than a more normal 30 days.

However, this is not the case: a 12 Month Rolling Contract is a 12 Month Fixed-term Contract, as defined in the second section above, that includes clauses under which each party can ask the other to renew it, or “roll it over”; either party can decide not to renew and there is no obligation on either side to pay compensation in such a case."

[tin]

44 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Let's be honest, how often does an assistant take-over from their sacked manager and it is a success?

Very few examples I can think of. Yes, assistants going on to be decent managers, but rarely at the same club.

EDIT - Had a look and there is one that stuck out, a certain Mr Hughton at Newcastle....

Mourinho at Porto (succeeded Bobby Robson) went on to have a good managerial career as well, but he's the exception to the norm.

Look at the likes of Paul Clement, Steve McClaren or Carlos Queiroz for evidence that appointing an assistant almost always fails. 

[CodeRed]

 

Bournemouth ? Traffic little club. I haven't spoken to anyone but my local club and I'd like to help them out....we'll see. 

[Alessandro]

8 minutes ago, tin said:

Mourinho at Porto (succeeded Bobby Robson) went on to have a good managerial career as well, but he's the exception to the norm.

Look at the likes of Paul Clement, Steve McClaren or Carlos Queiroz for evidence that appointing an assistant almost always fails. 

Wasn't Jose Robson's assistant at Porto and then Barca before going back to Porto as manager, via somewhere else first? So there was a break.

A few have done OK as caretakers, see Craig Shakespeare, but very rarely longer term.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Sheltons Army said:

No it doesn’t 

I think it was @Davefevs that posted an explanation from a specialist lawyer on here re rolling contracts

He explains that there will be a set date , by which both parties have to state their intentions (To renew or not) 

I can’t take the credit, as someone else (probably Nick ) mentioned it, I just have a good memory

53 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

That is not correct, @Sheltons Army is right - look here: https://www.mikethornton.xyz/rolling-employment-contracts/

"The 12 Month Fixed-term Contract is well understood by most people to be one that ends automatically when the season ends but many are confused when the word “Rolling” is included. Many users of social media have said that they interpret a 12 Month Rolling Contract to be a standard Indefinite-term contract as defined in the first section above and the notice period for either party is 12 months, rather than a more normal 30 days.

However, this is not the case: a 12 Month Rolling Contract is a 12 Month Fixed-term Contract, as defined in the second section above, that includes clauses under which each party can ask the other to renew it, or “roll it over”; either party can decide not to renew and there is no obligation on either side to pay compensation in such a case."

When Geoff asked MA about it, MA was very careful with his response....(paraphrased) he has a normal football contract, he was asked anything else, e.g. extension terms, pay-off terms....and I very much doubt he would’ve answered.

If the contract is as the legal definition, then I think Dean will be feeling huge pressure (assuming it’s not been re-triggered already).

[Sheltons Army]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I can’t take the credit, as someone else (probably Nick ) mentioned it, I just have a good memory

When Geoff asked MA about it, MA was very careful with his response....(paraphrased) he has a normal football contract, he was asked anything else, e.g. extension terms, pay-off terms....and I very much doubt he would’ve answered.

If the contract is as the legal definition, then I think Dean will be feeling huge pressure (assuming it’s not been re-triggered already).

It was educational for sure so thanks to @IAmNick, apologies

Maybe I’m just suspicious , but aware of the actual meaning , I wonder how much of our inactivity in the market and regarding OOC players is coincidence or relevant to a date when we must decide about DH or possibly awaiting to see if he hits a performance clause to trigger a new contract

[tin]

57 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Wasn't Jose Robson's assistant at Porto and then Barca before going back to Porto as manager, via somewhere else first? So there was a break.

A few have done OK as caretakers, see Craig Shakespeare, but very rarely longer term.

You might be right with that but I agree with you that there’s very little evidence of assistants having long-term success after succeeding their old boss. Maybe Paisley was the last one in the ‘70s?

[Alessandro]

3 minutes ago, tin said:

You might be right wit that but I agree with you that there’s very little evidence of assistants having long-term success after succeeding their old boss. Maybe Paisley was the last one in the ‘70s?

Yes and as I mentioned in the earlier post Hughton at Newcastle more recently. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

4 hours ago, BanburyRed said:

Welcome to the Championship, Bournemouth.  It's a tough league!

They didn’t find it too tough in 2014/2015 when they romped to the title with 90 points and a goal difference of plus 53 ... 

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

Let's be honest, how often does an assistant take-over from their sacked manager and it is a success?

Very few examples I can think of. Yes, assistants going on to be decent managers, but rarely at the same club.

EDIT - Had a look and there is one that stuck out, a certain Mr Hughton at Newcastle....

Eddie Howe was a youth team coach at Bournemouth before he was handed the manager’s role - that’s an unusual step up 

[Bristol Oil Services]

25 minutes ago, tin said:

You might be right with that but I agree with you that there’s very little evidence of assistants having long-term success after succeeding their old boss. Maybe Paisley was the last one in the ‘70s?

 

21 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Yes and as I mentioned in the earlier post Hughton at Newcastle more recently. 

Agree, there are few clear examples that spring to mind. I did think of John Lyall, though, who succeeded Ron Greenwood at West 'am, he won the FA Cup in his first season, reached the Cup Winners Cup final the following year, was relegated, then won the FA Cup again, then delivered promotion back to the top and a losing League Cup final (to Liverpool). Then he delivered West 'am's highest ever league finish, 3rd (almost as high as our highest).

He took Ipswich to promotion back to the top division after leaving Upton Park. 

And produced stylish, attacking football to boot.

[Sheltons Army]

37 minutes ago, tin said:

You might be right with that but I agree with you that there’s very little evidence of assistants having long-term success after succeeding their old boss. Maybe Paisley was the last one in the ‘70s?

I think Jordan would have had he only stayed here

He had success here and would have built on it IMHO

 

Of course Jordan / Holden is hardly comparing apples ! 

[Alessandro]

42 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Eddie Howe was a youth team coach at Bournemouth before he was handed the manager’s role - that’s an unusual step up 

Slightly different for Howe, he got his first managerial job very quickly didn’t he, can’t have been youth coach for long - was probably always eyed by Bournemouth as a potential coach from his playing days there, coaching youth as he worked through his badges etc.

Certainly not someone who has been an assistant for years and years getting the head job, especially after the sacking of the manager they assisted. 

[E.G.Red]

4 hours ago, CodeRed said:

 

Bournemouth ? Traffic little club. I haven't spoken to anyone but my local club and I'd like to help them out....we'll see. 

John Terry seems to be the favourite, although how that would work with Jonathan Woodgate who joined the coaching staff on Monday I'm not sure.

[Phileas Fogg]

2 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Slightly different for Howe, he got his first managerial job very quickly didn’t he, can’t have been youth coach for long - was probably always eyed by Bournemouth as a potential coach from his playing days there, coaching youth as he worked through his badges etc.

Certainly not someone who has been an assistant for years and years getting the head job, especially after the sacking of the manager they assisted. 

If I remember rightly, Bournemouth weren’t in great shape at the time and it was an appointment out of necessity. The money came later. Might be wrong on that though.

[E.G.Red]

Woodgate in temporary charge.

[Curr Avon]

13 minutes ago, E.G.Red said:

Woodgate in temporary charge.

Temporary being the operative word.

[Major Isewater]

4 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

 

Agree, there are few clear examples that spring to mind. I did think of John Lyall, though, who succeeded Ron Greenwood at West 'am, he won the FA Cup in his first season, reached the Cup Winners Cup final the following year, was relegated, then won the FA Cup again, then delivered promotion back to the top and a losing League Cup final (to Liverpool). Then he delivered West 'am's highest ever league finish, 3rd (almost as high as our highest).

He took Ipswich to promotion back to the top division after leaving Upton Park. 

And produced stylish, attacking football to boot.

Other than that he was crap.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 hours ago, Red Army 75 said:

Paul Cook IMO could do a decent job at Bournemouth 

I'd say he would be a good choice- however it's interesting/strange that he has only been offered 6 month contracts at Cardiff and Sheffield Wednesday according to reports.

He might also be under some kind of contractual period whereby he was released from contract due to wanting to take a break- reports at the time indicated this was a possible issue, though that might have been knocked on the head.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

If I remember rightly, Bournemouth weren’t in great shape at the time and it was an appointment out of necessity. The money came later. Might be wrong on that though.

Had 2 spells in charge- I work with a Bournemouth fan, he rescued them at the boittom ofg League One from a major points deduction.

They had decent money in his 2nd spell, though they only really broke the bank in 2014/15 at this level- that said their Transfer activity since the summer and reading between the lines, think they're working under some kind of EFL 'suggestions'. Would Howe- or even Lampard- want that.

5 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

They didn’t find it too tough in 2014/2015 when they romped to the title with 90 points and a goal difference of plus 53 ... 

They also broke FFP that season. At the time it was a one year system which didn't allow for monitoring until after the season- let alone future analysis and monitoring, in which case if Promotion had been achieved, the EFL could shake their fist looking up from below at them impotently but not do much while they were in the PL. Prudently (from a Bournemouth POV), them and the EFL settled that case in 2018, but I suspect they took a tougher line on their return, may have set some sort of budgetary requirements etc. That's in addition to necessary watching your spending due to Covid.

[Hxj]

On 03/02/2021 at 13:02, Sheltons Army said:

It was educational for sure so thanks to @IAmNick, apologies

Maybe I’m just suspicious , but aware of the actual meaning , I wonder how much of our inactivity in the market and regarding OOC players is coincidence or relevant to a date when we must decide about DH or possibly awaiting to see if he hits a performance clause to trigger a new contract

The only point that I would make is that unless anyone on here has read the actual contract and can state what it actual says no one can actually state what the contract terms are, regardless of what it is called by someone else.

[Swede]

This season's finished as far as I am concerned. 

As long as we are mid table that will do for the board and is reflective of the wins, draws & losses we currently have. I reckon that's the reason for not getting a left back in, even on loan. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 03/02/2021 at 09:36, Silvio Dante said:

Well I did say this wouldn’t be a Holden out thread but as you asked...!

I think you’re probably right in your reading. SL/MA don’t pull the trigger quickly in normal circumstances, and they won’t while the playoffs are attainable (which was minimum target). It’s a technicality for me that they’re attainable as they are mathematically but I would challenge anyone to say that they expect us to do it based on how we’re playing.

Add in here the Covid factor - we don’t know when fans are back, to what extent and how many will be able to financially. I do think it would be quite toxic if fans were there so DH is benefitting, but I also have sympathy for the theory that games seem more boring with no atmosphere!

Summary: Yeah, end of season I think he’s gone barring a miracle. The injury excuses are gone, he’s been backed in the market and he’s had a year to stamp an identity in the team - while theoretically knowing what needed to improve. If we’re not in the playoffs or very close to and still playing in the same style, I don’t see a way back. 
 

The kicker will be season ticket sales. The club will anticipate a reduction due to Covid finances/concerns, but it’s how far below that bar they fall. I’ll be renewing regardless, but I would think many won’t and that will be the feedback they act on

While I agree with good chunks of your post, I query the bolded bit- by my calculations we've had 6-7, players missing on average (I know it's not that but total absentees through injury vs total matchdays in the League to date- that's about 20-25% of the squad surely? That once averaged out is 6 or 7 players out per League matchday since Day 1.

New signings:

1. Sessegnon- Crocked since the Autumn
2. Mawson- Crocked since the Autumn, only returned within the last few weeks.
3. Williams- Not seen since Day One.
4. Brunt- Not sure how good a signing he was but he too was injured on departure and had missed several games.
5. Martin- Now injured, we'd been overplaying him for a while which wouldn't have helped.

Don't see how you can say the injury excuses are gone given he has not had anything that near a fully fit squad to work with...except the early stages, when it was going quite well! FFS we don't even have a natural LB, because even the two loanees we recalled who could have done so, are now...injured! Surely it's only fair to judge him once he has a squad that is reasonably full-strength and has had that chance for a reasonable period. Check the injury list thread and games missed...it's truly farcical. Not only does it deprive of first team options, it deprives us of depth, rotation options- see Martin and how we clearly did not manage him all that well- and competition for places, the last of which can and should drive standards.

OTOH, one key bugbear of mine that is irrespective of injuries is his general Plan B which often has consisted of throwing on of 3-4 up front- that is a 'crowd pleasing' tactic, theoretically looks good with respect to intent..but in reality often is quite ineffective and can perhaps even be counterproductive.

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 03/02/2021 at 10:05, Monkeh said:

If they don't go straight back up they are in trouble,

This is a panic sacking as they think they should be romping it

I'm not so certain! Would have to crunch the numbers another day, but big Transfer Profits, aligned with Parachute Payments- most of their players had relegation wage reduction clauses, lots left on free transfers and most of their higher earners are now gone- King might have been one of the last, I think if they're sensible they're fine for next year- might be pressure to sell Brooks as his contract up in 2022- it's 2022/23 that would see a real crunch IMO.

Although FFP vs more mundane (but in reality, critical) solvency issues might throw up different equations.