As the dust settles

[steviestevieneville]

1 minute ago, Ska Junkie said:

Absolutely ssn. He should be asking some seriously awkward questions TBH. 

We’re obviously not privy to what goes on behind closed doors but , nothing seems to change so you get the impression lansdowns happy 

[Redtucks]

1 hour ago, Wiltshire robin said:

It amazes me that someone who built a billion pound business from the ground is so incapable of decent recruitment. I bet when they employed managers at lansdown and Hargreaves they weren’t inexperienced people who they would take a gamble on 

It amazes me that there are so many people who have no experience of playing, managing or even involvement in professional football, who feel that they know better than those that have.

 

[Fordy62]

2 minutes ago, Redtucks said:

It amazes me that there are so many people who have no experience of playing, managing or even involvement in professional football, who feel that they know better than those that have.

 

It’s hard to know any less than Steve Lansdown when the subject matter is appointing managers really isn’t it?

[TomThumb84]

1 minute ago, Redtucks said:

It amazes me that there are so many people who have no experience of playing, managing or even involvement in professional football, who feel that they know better than those that have.

 

Ok, your right. Can everyone that has never played, managed, or been involved in professional football please disable their accounts and never have an opinion again. Please do it now as despite paying a proportion of the wages at the football club through turning up to watch them and buying merchandise, we all have no rights to offer our views.

What a relief. Wish you had said sooner.

[Wiltshire robin]

2 minutes ago, Redtucks said:

It amazes me that there are so many people who have no experience of playing, managing or even involvement in professional football, who feel that they know better than those that have.

 

:laugh: ok then , look at teams like Cardiff who got rid of inexperienced managers and hire experienced ones and they always seem to find a way back to the prem 

 

we hire inexperienced managers and always fall apart but that’s just a coincidence right ?

[Robbored]

23 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

But isn’t it down to SL  to ask & put pressure on him regarding recruitment at the very least . He’s got all the facts & figures that basically say he’s wasted millions . The sale of Webster & brownhil have massively papered over the cracks. All other good sales , Bobby, joe, Lloyd were already at the club when he got here. I’m amazed he hasn’t been sacked for it . 

Ashton has a remit set by SL and one element of that remit is to ensure sustainability. Consequently MA has to be extremely astute on fiscal matters. The sales of our better players is one part of the equation. The second part is keeping the spending on player wages and incoming signings under control.

Ultimately SL runs a tight ship with Ashton as his captain and so far SL is content with the job that his captain is doing.

 

[TomThumb84]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Ashton has a remit set by SL and one element of that remit is to ensure sustainability. Consequently MA has to be extremely astute on fiscal matters. The sales of our better players is one part of the equation. The second part is keeping the spending on player wages and incoming signings under control.

Ultimately SL runs a tight ship with Ashton as his captain and so far SL is content with the job that his captain is doing.

 

Wages are three times higher than four years ago, and outside of Bentley, and maybe Nagy, possibly O’Dowda, can you name me a player in the current side that would sell for more than we signed them for? 

Based on your personal interpretation of Mark Ashtons job description would you say he has been successful at this point in time? 

[Robbored]

16 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

Wages are three times higher than four years ago, and outside of Bentley, and maybe Nagy, possibly O’Dowda, can you name me a player in the current side that would sell for more than we signed them for? 

Based on your personal interpretation of Mark Ashtons job description would you say he has been successful at this point in time? 

It’s only SLs opinion that matters, not my or anyone else’s.

[megansdad]

Given the injuries, no, I don't think we are anywhere near a top 6 side. Certainly over a consistent period. 

With a fully fit squad, I think we'd have a decent crack at a top 6 finish. 

 

Could not agree more - injuries and a hectic schedule have taken their toll this year. Promising signs with clear progress from the likes of Zak, Antoine and HNM, based on last night's performance. Play offs still possible and if not this year then happy to see Holden and team given another season, where hopefully we'll have a fully fit squad much more often.

[Better Red]

We are best an average championship team with average players.

If we are honest outside Bentley none of the current squad (yes squad) that any Bottom premiership or top 6 (except Reading) would want to sign.

Until that changes to about 3 or 4 we have no chance of promotion.

Our recruitment is just not good enough and has not been for 5 years. The academy is not producing that grade of player either. 

So without better recruitment and better players from the academy. We won’t progress.
 

Our problem is to get better players we have to ‘trade’ and not sure that their will be many takers for our players outside Bentley.

We need another 15/20m cash injection for signings and with the wasted millions In the last few years not sure SL is so eggar to spend his money.

So we go round and round and round...

Once we sort that then we need another better manager.

 

[TomThumb84]

31 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s only SLs opinion that matters, not my or anyone else’s.

Brilliant. Thanks

[Redtucks]

1 hour ago, TomThumb84 said:

Ok, your right. Can everyone that has never played, managed, or been involved in professional football please disable their accounts and never have an opinion again. Please do it now as despite paying a proportion of the wages at the football club through turning up to watch them and buying merchandise, we all have no rights to offer our views.

What a relief. Wish you had said sooner.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I never said you weren't.

But for that opinion to hve any credence, it needs to be backed up with knowledge or experience.

For people to be so arrogant as to make statements such as "Lee Johnson(/ Dean Holden or whoever) hasn't got a clue" beggars belief.

That's my opinion!

[TomThumb84]

Just now, Redtucks said:

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I never said you weren't.

But for that opinion to hve any credence, it needs to be backed up with knowledge or experience.

For people to be so arrogant as to make statements such as "Lee Johnson(/ Dean Holden or whoever) hasn't got a clue" beggars belief.

That's my opinion!

So knowledge and experience does not translate from watching and supporting and investing both emotionally and financially into a club for decades and being able to offer informed opinion based on comparison and benchmarks of teams/management structures/style of play of previous eras?

I think that does entitle fans and supporters to offer their view, and are qualified to do so, even if it is not exactly in line with your strict criteria to be able to do so.

 

[Redtucks]

1 hour ago, Wiltshire robin said:

ok then , look at teams like Cardiff who got rid of inexperienced managers and hire experienced ones and they always seem to find a way back to the prem 

 

we hire inexperienced managers and always fall apart but that’s just a coincidence right ?

"they always seem to find a way back to the prem" ???

They've only been there twice and got relegated both times in their first season.

Where are they now, incidentally???

 

 

[Wiltshire robin]

3 minutes ago, Redtucks said:

"they always seem to find a way back to the prem" ???

They've only been there twice and got relegated both times in their first season.

Where are they now, incidentally???

 

 

Below us and I doubt for long , I also bet that they get to prem again before we get there or before we even finish a season in a play off place tbh 

[Ivorguy]

1 hour ago, Redtucks said:

It amazes me that there are so many people who have no experience of playing, managing or even involvement in professional football, who feel that they know better than those that have.

 

It is not a question of football; it is a question of running a company or organisation.  Many of us on Otib have that experience at the highest level.  My underlying concerns are that SL has stated playing in the top flight is the goal.  In over two decades of owning City only once have we reached a play off final, which we duly lost.

All companies and organisations set goals but also set out timescales and routes.  We have over the years changed these almost as often as we change our socks.  In short it is not working, and despite countless changes of manager/coach and hundreds of players, the one constant has been SL himself.  We don’t even have a Board which in any true sense of the term functions.

 

No football club, to be really successful, can go on ignoring the fans.  Where has City’s communication with fans been during lockdown for example?  An opportunity lost.

 

I fear we are hitched to a 19th century business model, more appropriate to my Victorian Bristolian grandparents who were factory owners in the late 1800s than to today’s business models.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rich]

2 hours ago, Wiltshire robin said:

It amazes me that someone who built a billion pound business from the ground is so incapable of decent recruitment. I bet when they employed managers at lansdown and Hargreaves they weren’t inexperienced people who they would take a gamble on 

I believe Lansdown was the accountant and Hargreaves the driving force and that remains so. It was a good partnership.

[WolfOfWestStreet]

49 minutes ago, Redtucks said:

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I never said you weren't.

But for that opinion to hve any credence, it needs to be backed up with knowledge or experience.

For people to be so arrogant as to make statements such as "Lee Johnson(/ Dean Holden or whoever) hasn't got a clue" beggars belief.

That's my opinion!

You don't need a UEFA coaching licence or a champions league medal to see that Dean Holden is not a football manager. 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Lrrr said:

Automatic certainly, Norwich, Brentford and Swansea just too good to keep up with over a longer period. Play offs purely comes down to if teams can maintain momentum, looking at the picture you can see barely anyone is in form and we actually picked up the 2nd most points in that period when we played Brentford, Derby (form team), Huddersfield (3 points regardless of performance), Norwich and Preston. Not an easy run of games there, its not like we've had 5 bottom half teams. 

I think the left back criticism is hard without knowing all the facts, we can speculate all we want but we don't know how many left backs we talked to clubs about, quite possibly there weren't any we thought were any better than Rowe (who was fit until the last couple of days) and Holden saying he's got good hopes for Nurse (Post article). We probably also had limited options for how much we could add to our wage bill in January and perhaps we wanted to focus it on Lansbury. If not a loan then we already have 4 senior left backs at the club, already looking ahead to next season something has to happen there.

Dasilva, Rowe, Sessegnon (believe it or not has played virtually as many games at LB as RB), Pring, Nurse and O’Dowda are all injured.  At the same time too.  That’s pretty unlucky for Holden (ignoring injury conspiracies).

But even if you consider Sessegnon as cover for LB, where did that leave us if Hunt got injured?

It comes down to planning.  We sent Pring and Nurse out on loan too, so we didn’t have them earlier this season anyway.

I actually don’t have a problem that we didn’t bring a LB in either loan or perm, but we left ourselves in a position where we are playing Mariappa there.

[pillred]

3 hours ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

You don't need a UEFA coaching licence or a champions league medal to see that Dean Holden is not a football manager. 

Unfortunately for us he is apparently.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Better Red said:

We are best an average championship team with average players.

If we are honest outside Bentley none of the current squad (yes squad) that any Bottom premiership or top 6 (except Reading) would want to sign.

Until that changes to about 3 or 4 we have no chance of promotion.

Our recruitment is just not good enough and has not been for 5 years. The academy is not producing that grade of player either. 

So without better recruitment and better players from the academy. We won’t progress.
 

Our problem is to get better players we have to ‘trade’ and not sure that their will be many takers for our players outside Bentley.

We need another 15/20m cash injection for signings and with the wasted millions In the last few years not sure SL is so eggar to spend his money.

So we go round and round and round...

Once we sort that then we need another better manager.

 

SL has had many goes at choosing a better manager, its very unlikely the next choice will change that record. Seems to base his choices on cost rather than proven ability.

[weepywall]

51 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

SL has had many goes at choosing a better manager, its very unlikely the next choice will change that record. Seems to base his choices on cost rather than proven ability.

Next manager probably already here, it will take about 6 weeks to realise that tho. 

[Son of Fred]

11 hours ago, Robbored said:

It’s only SLs opinion that matters, not my or anyone else’s.

You couldn't be further from the truth...

Well done indeed.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

13 hours ago, TomThumb84 said:

Ok, your right. Can everyone that has never played, managed, or been involved in professional football please disable their accounts and never have an opinion again. Please do it now as despite paying a proportion of the wages at the football club through turning up to watch them and buying merchandise, we all have no rights to offer our views.

What a relief. Wish you had said sooner.

Yes, smart response, but the relentlessness of those who present their opinions as to where we’re going wrong as incontestable fact is very wearing.  Every thread is hi-jacked by posters who repeat the same memes time after time.  How many times can you accuse Mark Ashton of being a liar; Dean Holden of being inept; or Steve Lansdown of only being in it for the money?  Need a left back?  Ah here’s one on the shelf over here, I’ll have that one!  I really do value debate and contrary opinions, but there is no genuine debate on the forum any more.  Anyone who dares contradict the end of the world brigade are dismissed out of hand,  That’s not argument, it’s just contradiction.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Dasilva, Rowe, Sessegnon (believe it or not has played virtually as many games at LB as RB), Pring, Nurse and O’Dowda are all injured.  At the same time too.  That’s pretty unlucky for Holden (ignoring injury conspiracies).

But even if you consider Sessegnon as cover for LB, where did that leave us if Hunt got injured?

It comes down to planning.  We sent Pring and Nurse out on loan too, so we didn’t have them earlier this season anyway.

I actually don’t have a problem that we didn’t bring a LB in either loan or perm, but we left ourselves in a position where we are playing Mariappa there.

‘It comes down to planning’?  How many players do you have in your first team squad then?  I would have thought generally two per position with maybe a couple of all rounders, so perhaps 24 or 25, and not all of those can feature on match day.  I don’t thing you could have held the likes of Pring and Nurse back just in case we had a major injury crisis, and in fact posters were questioning at the start of the season why Bakinson had not been sent out on loan again.  Presumably Vyner would have been regarded as additional RB cover at the start of the season...

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, Son of Fred said:

You couldn't be further from the truth...

Well done indeed.

Can you reveal what the truth is then?         

[steviestevieneville]

13 hours ago, Robbored said:

Ashton has a remit set by SL and one element of that remit is to ensure sustainability. Consequently MA has to be extremely astute on fiscal matters. The sales of our better players is one part of the equation. The second part is keeping the spending on player wages and incoming signings under control.

Ultimately SL runs a tight ship with Ashton as his captain and so far SL is content with the job that his captain is doing.

 

[Redandproud]

15 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

I think we’re only a good head coach away from promotion. Trouble is, we’ve been that for about 4 and a half years. 

Agree @ReggyRed?

I agree, but that's not going to change, as SL&MA keep going for the cheap option, whilst MA is at the club we won't be installing an experienced manager, a manager should in charge of transfers, 

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

‘It comes down to planning’?  How many players do you have in your first team squad then?

What I’m saying is that if you are going to play a 352 where WBs are both important and high, then you need to staff that area properly.  But I also think he’s been very unlucky too....so I feel a bit mixed on this one.

I would have thought generally two per position with maybe a couple of all rounders, so perhaps 24 or 25, and not all of those can feature on match day.

yep, reasonable basis for squad size.  Re all-rounders, I said start of season, versatile players will be worth their weight in gold.  Through this season we’ve had injury crisis (of different degrees) at CB, LB and CM, and even AM in terms of the “6 and two 8s” as well as a to a lesser extent RB.  That means only goalie and forwards have been ok.  But as I say that’s unlucky too.

I don’t thing you could have held the likes of Pring and Nurse back just in case we had a major injury crisis, and in fact posters were questioning at the start of the season why Bakinson had not been sent out on loan again.

This maybe where I may feel differently.  And it’s probably in this area where I really make my “planning” point.  If I break it down as we’ve a squad of bonafide 1st trainers, fringe players, u23 fringe and true u23s (many of which are probably u18s) then we need to look at the plans for those middle two groups.  Feel free to disagree about my “buckets” of players, just trying to help explain my thoughts.

So what do we do with those two middle groups?

What we have done is loan many of those players out in the first half of the season, meaning our squad was left with 1st teamers and true u23s.

In a season of massively condensed fixtures, i said pre-season that we should play a bit safe with loans up until Xmas until we realised how much an impact the fixture list was having.  As a club, the plan could have been to hold back the development of players like Pring and Nurse for 4/5 months whilst we assessed the season.  Tough on Pring and Nurse, but in hindsight (or foresight in some respects) both might have got game time for City.

So, planning needs better thinking....I totally accept it’s not a black and white, I totally accept we couldn’t have predicted the number of injuries, but I think we could’ve planned a bit better.  In future I think we need to understand the risk of our u23s squad not being a first team filler.  The gap between 1st team and true u23s is big.  The risk of our loan model is that we widen that gap.  If we are happy to accept that risk, then fine by me, but then we can’t use that as an excuse when we have to include Towler and Z.Smith on the bench.  That’s not dissing them, I hope they turn into fine City players, but Holden wasn’t going to risk them.  In Towler’s case, he even played Tommy Rowe at LCB instead.

Presumably Vyner would have been regarded as additional RB cover at the start of the season...

Yes, totally.  But with Baker out, that left us just 4 CBs (inc Vyner) to play in 3 positions, so chances of Zak playing RB / RWB fairly unlikely because of limited CB options, which got exposed in the early weeks as Kalas got injured.

Also, much as I like 352 and Holden’s 352, it’s an “all-in” formation and if you recruit to that (which I think he tried to) you leave yourself unbalanced when you then decide / have to switch to 442 / 433.

[Bristol Oil Services]

12 hours ago, Redtucks said:

"they always seem to find a way back to the prem" ???

They've only been there twice and got relegated both times in their first season.

Where are they now, incidentally???

 

 

They've "only" reached two Wembley finals (and not of the Johnstone Paint Pot To Piss In variety) in the last 12 years too, don't forget.

The year before Steve took control, Cardiff were in the 4th division. Three years before this they were averaging 3000 odd a season. 

Vincent Tan has "only" been at Cardiff ten years, half the time Steve has been running the show here. 

It's quite something - a bit rich - for a Bristol City fan to be saying Cardiff have "only" been promoted twice from this division in the last 7 years or so. Steve's "only" managed two promotions in 20 years - both from League One.