Derby County

[BTRFTG]

59 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Quantuma get plenty of flak and rightly so but in slight defence they were dealt an awful hand- but Mike Ashley fee issue notwithstanding surely seems the best bet?

Best bet for what and whom? Save Derby County?  Perhaps, but what else?

Folks are making the MASSIVE assumption that there's even a deal to be done with MA. For sure he'll offer terms (I could do that,) but like those I'd demand I reckon these would include getting the ground and MSD's debt cleared via MM's gift, not via any injection of funds made, those being used to settle the issue with HMRC and other creditors so as to take the business out of administration. Of course Q have no power or authority over either just as MM has no legal obligation to help, other than a court could exercise the charge against assets held by MM should no other repayment to MSD materialize. 

Likewise, folks assume MM and MSD not to be singing from the same hymnsheet. But they were, they were thick as pigs in sh*t in their dealings and the MSD charge might just be another ruse between MM and MD and chums to retain as much as possible for themselves, leaving others to absorb maximum damage.

So whilst the rumour is it's the £4m fees to Q that's holding everything up, personally I reckon that's another yarn. The amount Ashley is rumoured to have offered is barely enough to cover HMRC and non-secured creditors. If that includes the stadium without charge there's a deal to be done, if it's for name and scrap only, who's kidding who?

Edited June 11, 2022 by BTRFTG

[chinapig]

20 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Best bet for what and whom? Save Derby County?  Perhaps, but what else?

Quite, though the priority is the best deal for the creditors of course.

[Mr Popodopolous]

25 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Best bet for what and whom? Save Derby County?  Perhaps, but what else?

Folks are making the MASSIVE assumption that there's even a deal to be done with MA. For sure he'll offer terms (I could do that,) but like those I'd demand I reckon these would include getting the ground and MSD's debt cleared via MM's gift, not via any injection of funds made, those being used to settle the issue with HMRC and other creditors so as to take the business out of administration. Of course Q have no power or authority over either just as MM has no legal obligation to help, other than a court could exercise the charge against assets held by MM should no other repayment to MSD materialize. 

Likewise, folks assume MM and MSD not to be singing from the same hymnsheet. But they were, they were thick as pigs in sh*t in their dealings and the MSD charge might just be another ruse between MM and MD and chums to retain as much as possible for themselves, leaving others to absorb maximum damage.

So whilst the rumour is it's the £4m fees to Q that's holding everything up, personally I reckon that's another yarn. The amount Ashley is rumoured to have offered is barely enough to cover HMRC and non-secured creditors. If that includes the stadium without charge there's a deal to be done, if it's for name and scrap only, who's kidding who?

Yeah good point- will rephrase that, most likely to run them sensibly combined with proven funds probably.

Requires MSD consent or clearance of the charge in order to proceed or to get the charge waived I thought? While since I've looked into it.

MSD as secured creditors have the strongest security of all- even bits on Twitter suggested in the past that part of their security is covered by Mel Morris and his London properties. MSD was a cross security of some kind IIRC. They are literally top of the chain- ahead of HMRC, Insolvency Practitioners and so on. @Hxj has posted about this before, he knows more than me I am sure...they are quite well covered! MSD would be paid via the sale price of the stadium.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Ska Junkie]

There have been a  lot of pages added since I last ventured on to this thread, could someone give a precis version of where Derby are at currently, deadlines etc please as it seems they are back in the realms of closure to me? @Mr Popodopolouswould you mind Sir?

Thanks.

[CyderInACan]

16 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

could someone give a precis version of where Derby are at currently

They’re fukked. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by CyderInACan

[cityloyal473]

1 minute ago, CyderInACan said:

They’re fukked. 

Mike Ashley will ride in and rescue them. 

[downendcity]

18 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

There have been a  lot of pages added since I last ventured on to this thread, could someone give a precis version of where Derby are at currently, deadlines etc please as it seems they are back in the realms of closure to me? @Mr Popodopolouswould you mind Sir?

Thanks.

Their demise is................well it's............

........imminent is the word!

[Davefevs]

Think it’s time for the EFL to let Derby go, cut the strings (the irony of MM having them on strings).

Sad as it is for the history / heritage of Derby, it’s fans, it’s employees, there needs to be hard deadline…and it needs sticking to.

[cityloyal473]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think it’s time for the EFL to let Derby go, cut the strings (the irony of MM having them on strings).

Sad as it is for the history / heritage of Derby, it’s fans, it’s employees, there needs to be hard deadline…and it needs sticking to.

Not gonna happen. Deserved, yes. But won’t happen. Any talk of it is fantasy. 

[BTRFTG]

28 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah good point- will rephrase that, most likely to run them sensibly combined with proven funds probably.

Requires MSD consent or clearance of the charge in order to proceed or to get the charge waived I thought? While since I've looked into it.

MSD as secured creditors have the strongest security of all- even bits on Twitter suggested in the past that part of their security is covered by Mel Morris and his London properties. MSD was a cross security of some kind IIRC. They are literally top of the chain- ahead of HMRC, Insolvency Practitioners and so on. @Hxj has posted about this before, he knows more than me I am sure...they are quite well covered! MSD would be paid via the sale price of the stadium.

Note my point about the MM / MSD assumption. What better way of protecting ones interests than being top of the secured pile? The two go back to the development of the whole Pride Park complex. MSD were complicit in furthering additional funds to keep Derby going (naturally all secured.) What chance they may well have paid May's wages but wouldn't want that known? Folks assume they aren't in cahoots, but why is that, they loads in common? If they simply wanted their monies back they could easily have forced that ages ago.

So yes, both stadium and charge are beyond Q's control which back to the original point may account for a reluctance to deal with MA if these are a known prerequisite as to his demands. Fees may be a convenient red herring.

[BTRFTG]

As students of negotiation or game theory will remind the thing most folks fail to appreciate is absolute power sits not with those who may end up winning rather it sits with those who retain an ability to stop others winning, especially where they themselves have already lost.

Those thinking Ashley holds all the aces, he doesn't.

[BTRFTG]

59 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Quite, though the priority is the best deal for the creditors of course.

And per my comment re the MM / MSD historic association, who'd be surprised were MM himself ultimately to benefit via outside arrangements from MSDs secured credit status? 

[Midred]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah good point- will rephrase that, most likely to run them sensibly combined with proven funds probably.

Requires MSD consent or clearance of the charge in order to proceed or to get the charge waived I thought? While since I've looked into it.

MSD as secured creditors have the strongest security of all- even bits on Twitter suggested in the past that part of their security is covered by Mel Morris and his London properties. MSD was a cross security of some kind IIRC. They are literally top of the chain- ahead of HMRC, Insolvency Practitioners and so on. @Hxj has posted about this before, he knows more than me I am sure...they are quite well covered! MSD would be paid via the sale price of the stadium.

Yeah, the 80 million should cover it!

[bert tann]

16 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

As students of negotiation or game theory will remind the thing most folks fail to appreciate is absolute power sits not with those who may end up winning rather it sits with those who retain an ability to stop others winning, especially where they themselves have already lost.

Those thinking Ashley holds all the aces, he doesn't.

Dickie, if you are interested there is a job waiting for you at the AJIB

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

This is longer than the Forsyth Saga. How many chances does Kirchner get? How many chances do Derby get? How many brown envelopes have the post office delivered to the EFL board? 

[cityloyal473]

13 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

This is longer than the Forsyth Saga. How many chances does Kirchner get? How many chances do Derby get? How many brown envelopes have the post office delivered to the EFL board? 

You, and many on this thread don’t get it - Derby ain’t gonna be liquidated or suffer any other severe financial or operational consequences.

They’ll survive.

They’ll be ok.

Wishful thinking and waiting for the EFL to cut them adrift isn’t gonna do anything.

They’ll get promoted next season. 
 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by cityloyal473

[Lanterne Rouge]

Derby County: Fans react to the collapse of club sale - BBC News

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

7 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

You, and many on this thread don’t get it - Derby ain’t gonna be liquidated or suffer any other severe financial or operational consequences.

They’ll survive.

They’ll be ok.

Wishful thinking and waiting for the EFL to cut them adrift isn’t gonna do anything.

They’ll get promoted next season. 
 

 

I get it alright, I just wondered what the numbers were. I'm well aware that the EFL gives incompetence a bad name and I wouldn't trust them to run a bath. 

[cityloyal473]

Just now, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I get it alright, I just wondered what the numbers were. I'm well aware that the EFL gives incompetence a bad name and I wouldn't trust them to run a bath. 

Apologies. Reading back My reply seems curt.

But the premise stands: Derby will survive and will flourish in one form or other. There won’t be overly adverse effects to their ongoing kerfuffle.  

Too big to fail, unfortunately.  If they go, there’s a precedent. 

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

18 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

Apologies. Reading back My reply seems curt.

But the premise stands: Derby will survive and will flourish in one form or other. There won’t be overly adverse effects to their ongoing kerfuffle.  

Too big to fail, unfortunately.  If they go, there’s a precedent. 

I totally agree with you and don't actually want Derby to go to the wall I just want equity. The importance of football, the national sport, to the social culture of the UK cannot be over-emphasised. Football clubs are not just sporting institutions but are a crucial social resource for their local community. Its just as well I'm not PM because I would have stuck 2 fingers up to FIFA, UEFA long ago and launched a major investigation into how football is run and administered in the UK with particular reference to finance and who is fit and proper to be a director of a football club. As a starter I would have the NAO investigate the finances and governance of the football authorities and each club with a view to providing a new set of rules that are to be adhered to or face severe penalty. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by RoystonFoote'snephew
Typo alteration

[bert tann]

6 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I totally agree with you and don't actually want Derby to go to the wall I just want equity. The importance of football, the national sport, to the social culture of the UK cannot be over-emphasised. Football clubs are not just sporting institutions but are a crucial social resource for their local community. Its just as well I'm not PM because I would have stuck 2 fingers up to FIFA, UEFA long ago and launched a major investigation into how football is run and administered in the UK with particular reference to finance and who is fit and proper to be a director of a football club. As a starter I would have the NAO investigate the finances and governance of the football authorities and each club with a view to providing a new set of rules that are to be adhered to or face severe penalty. 

 

Fine, just don’t let them go near Cyprus

 

[Monkeh]

2 hours ago, cityloyal473 said:

Not gonna happen. Deserved, yes. But won’t happen. Any talk of it is fantasy. 

It happened to Chester Bury and Hereford,

Portsmouth, Bolton, Bradford, Stockport, 

The list goes on, if this isn't sorted in the next month then Derby will not be starting the season

Edited June 11, 2022 by Monkeh

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, cityloyal473 said:

You, and many on this thread don’t get it - Derby ain’t gonna be liquidated or suffer any other severe financial or operational consequences.

They’ll survive.

They’ll be ok.

Wishful thinking and waiting for the EFL to cut them adrift isn’t gonna do anything.

They’ll get promoted next season. 
 

I broadly agree with you in that it seems that a club with Derby's history is given more than its fair share of chances to pull irons out of the fire.

However, in the absence of a buyer, surely there has to be a day of reckoning very soon, in terms of Derby's ability to fulfill fixtures next season.

Doesn't there have to be evidence of sufficient funds for this and also that they have playing staff to put out a team - both of which appear lacking at the moment?

[chinapig]

10 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

It happened to Chester Bury and Hereford,

Portsmouth, Bolton, Bradford, Stockport, 

The list goes on, if this isn't sorted in the next month then Derby will not be starting the season

It may in fact be that they only have 2 weeks to prove to the EFL that they have the money to complete next season.

They can start the season still in administration but only if they have done that as an absolute minimum. But where is that money going to come from?

[chinapig]

More from Rob Dorsett. Note the price is now £30m:

Kirchner still adamant he wants to buy, money in European clearing bank, and he’s staying in UK to complete deal. Steve Morgan no longer interested, Andy Appleby trying to refinance a renewed bid, and Ashley feels he’s being frozen out, but has the cash to buy.

I’m told 2 other unnamed parties also want to buy club. Price for #dcfc now risen to over £30m because of interest payments, plus £22m for stadium. £50m+ would buy most Championship clubs, but Derby in Lg 1 still v attractive because of fan base and commercial potential.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

More from Rob Dorsett. Note the price is now £30m:

Kirchner still adamant he wants to buy, money in European clearing bank, and he’s staying in UK to complete deal. Steve Morgan no longer interested, Andy Appleby trying to refinance a renewed bid, and Ashley feels he’s being frozen out, but has the cash to buy.

I’m told 2 other unnamed parties also want to buy club. Price for #dcfc now risen to over £30m because of interest payments, plus £22m for stadium. £50m+ would buy most Championship clubs, but Derby in Lg 1 still v attractive because of fan base and commercial potential.

I take it £30m doesn’t include the stadium?

[chinapig]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I take it £30m doesn’t include the stadium?

No, we assume a deal for the stadium has been done separately between Morris and the local guy whose name escapes me* but that won't go through unless and until a deal for the club is done.

So whoever buys the club now has to stump up even more.

*Edit: Clowes.

Edited June 11, 2022 by chinapig

[Dr Balls]

However much Derby as a business deserve everything and more, I am not sure that even Derby fans deserve this!

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/11/mike-ashley-tells-derby-administrators-he-is-willing-and-ready-to-transact

[BTRFTG]

49 minutes ago, chinapig said:

More from Rob Dorsett. Note the price is now £30m:

The price of what?

Derby County football club has liabilities around the £71m mark.

In theory this could be reduced by £24m should MSD force the sell of MM's assets  (not sure they can do this without Derby first defaulting on the charge) but mostly that's the ground/training/car park lease and that could have an impact on the club itself should the new landlord have other plans for the assets. Most virtual freeholds have full repairing clauses that friendly landlords (as would have been MM when in charge) don't choose to exercise. What if the new landlord does? 'Hello tenant, you're served notice to reinstate as per the terms of your lease....if you don't you're in default and it's not my problem you can't afford to....'

There's another theoretical reduction of circa £5.5m should the unsecured creditors agree a CVA, but Derby don't have the £1.5m cash to buy that out yet so it would have to be 'discounted' (i.e added as a liability in when accounting for the purchase.)

So paying £30m for the club (name plus 5 contracts) you'd still have acquired £15.5m of debt, have no working capital and be somewhere shy of 20 players to form a squad. Suppose HMRC wrote off £16m of debt you'd still have only 5 contracts, a name and no stadium but that assumes a whole other level of write-off.

Really, who'd offer £30m for that? More likely it's as you often see reported ' I bought X for £1' (technically true but not reporting the tens of millions liability one has also taken possession of)?

[chinapig]

21 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Really, who'd offer £30m for that? More likely it's as you often see reported ' I bought X for £1' (technically true but not reporting the tens of millions liability one has also taken possession of)?

Yes, I suspect you are right. The problem is we are relying on football writers to report on financial matters they don't understand.

The club itself, whose assets comprise 5 players, has little value. So the bulk of the price presumably has to represent the amount required to meet what the creditors have agreed to take.

What we need is a Kieran Maguire to find out what the breakdown actually is.

But a new owner will also have to put in additional money to fund the club for the coming season and beyond, net of ticket income.

Not owning the stadium means that provides no income to the club either. I wonder if their fans still think it was a clever wheeze to "sell" Pride Park?