Hxj Posted October 6, 2021 Report Share Posted October 6, 2021 I've just been over on www.dcfcfans.uk - definitely getting more jittery over there. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 6, 2021 Report Share Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) I mentioned the FFP/P&S position a little while ago and my calculations against what info is in the public domain and possible guesswork as well...following on from my last posts on it, I have to say it has suddenly gone a bit quiet since admin took over on the punishment front but the EFL must press on, for the good of the game/integrity of the competition etc. Nobody's fault but Derby's or Mel's more likely that they are facing a combination of FFP and administration simultaneously. Anyway, going to try and recalibrate some of the numbers using a mix of the info posted by the Derby fan and info in the public domain, ie pulled from the Independent Panel last August. P&S losses to 2018- from the Independent Panel 1st Hearing- using the Derby method That of course was with the £74.4m valuation and the valuation shooting up to £81.1m would have cut things, as indeed Derby showed in their calculations. This amortisation- and this is where things can start to change but so far so good...but this uses the Derby method. With credit to @AnotherDerbyFan for this info. Change to the 3 years using straight Line method. Although in fact the final result varied again slightly by the time of the final results in March. The final 3 year outcome therefore would have been- using the Derby method, a P&S loss of £21,487,000. Total 3 year amortisation to 2018 using the Derby method- as above clearly rounding will exist £14.95m Total 3 year amortisation 2019 using the straight line with extension method £35.93m Minus the additional £2m profit on Ince. £21,487,000 + £20,980,000-£2,000,000=£40,670,000. That's only a 3 point overspend though, not 4. Total 3 year amortisation using the straight line method £36.29m Minus the additional £2m profit on Ince. £21,487,000 + £21,340,000 - £2,000,000=£40,827,000. Again that's only a 3 point overspend, but not 4. The Ince profit in either case would change 3 to 4...but otherwise it's 3. To 2019! Projected... ...Then updated. The sensitivity about rent...does this mean it should bump up the P&S losses or bump them down? Basic maths says that it is a fall of £617k post the 30th June as set against the projections in March. 3 year amortisation to 2019 using the Derby way £16.18m Total 3 year amortisation 2019 using the straight line with extension method £38.39m Total 3 year amortisation 2019 using the straight line method £41.06m Recalculated P&S to 2019 using straight line with extension method That would be an addition of £22.21m to the £37.1m figure- minus £2m improvement for Ince and say £11m for Vydra etc. £37.1m + £9.21m Net=£46.31m. Isn't that a 6 point deduction an overspend of £7.31m. Written Reasons for Sheffield Wednesday's sanctioning hearing suggest so. Recalculated P&S to 2019 using straight line method £37.1m + £11.88m Net-£48.98m. That's a 7 point deduction using that tariff. Clearly the need to drag it back out and analyse and reset certain years where appropriate, this could take some calculating and this throws it up in the air somewhat...but there is a starting point. It doesn't evenly fall so the reset to £13m for periods and assessment against that would be interesting and this is a starting point. Restatement of that mere 3 year period however can cause a significant ripple effect for better and worse. Edited October 6, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 Came across this article, seems interesting and pertinent to clubs moving forward. https://www.linklaters.com/en/insights/blogs/sportinglinks/2021/january/the-crown-regains-preferential-treatment-how-will-english-sports-clubs-be-affected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: This amortisation- and this is where things can start to change but so far so good...but this uses the Derby method. With credit to @AnotherDerbyFan for this info. I'm not convinced by those figures, as except for 2015/16 I can't tie them into the accounts. The relevant additional intangibles in 16/17 were £21.1 million and in 17/18 were £15.0 million and the 2018 accounts refer to acquisitions of £18.5 million. @AnotherDerbyFan's figures might be right, just presented differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Hxj said: I'm not convinced by those figures, as except for 2015/16 I can't tie them into the accounts. The relevant additional intangibles in 16/17 were £21.1 million and in 17/18 were £15.0 million and the 2018 accounts refer to acquisitions of £18.5 million. @AnotherDerbyFan's figures might be right, just presented differently. Those figures look pretty detailed to me, giving the amortisation in the accounts to 2019 and with different methods- and we know of it up to and including 2019/20 for the projected based on the 2019/20 spike in amortisation under the Derby way- I think Upfront would represent the total additions in a season and beyond in fact. I looked at the additions at times in the past but not of late- and could represent a huge job trying to ascertain the average length of a contract, let alone extensions. Either way it seems plausible to say that once restated using the EFL's preferred methodology, P&S is failed- simply a question of by how much and how many times. Oh and the thorny issue of how you recalculate T-1 and T-2 to assess T in 2019 certainly. Edited October 7, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 (edited) Interesting to note that a Derby MP has taken to Twitter moaning and indeed wants to meet the EFL etc. Special pleading is one way to describe it. I'm sure that fans of clubs adversely affected by Derby's financial activities in recent times would also take a strong view. What a state of a letter, as in so one eyed...not a word of criticism of Mel, the CEO or his pet auditor, not a word about the £28m in HMRC debt, not a word about football insolvency regs to offer balance and context, not a word about multiple alleged breaches or attempted alleged breaches of P&S in recent times... ...If Derby are a pillar of the community, then she is a word that is very like pillar but has a very different meaning. Edited October 7, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Those figures look pretty detailed to me, giving the amortisation in the accounts to 2019 and with different methods I agree 17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: I think Upfront would represent the total additions in a season. So did I, it agrees the figure in the 2015/16 accounts, but not those for the two later years. The accounts figures are about £10 million more, which has a significant impact on the losses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Hxj said: I agree I'm inclined to go with it at this time...even using that and possibly a little bit of optimism bias on the 2018/19 upswing for profit on player sales and amortisation there is still quite possibly a fail or 2. 52 minutes ago, Hxj said: So did I, it agrees the figure in the 2015/16 accounts, but not those for the two later years. The accounts figures are about £10 million more, which has a significant impact on the losses. It could be because they separate out Player registrations and Transfer fee levies and other associated costs into two categories, that's in the Sevco 5112 Limited 2018 accounts. An example would be that £30m in 2015/16 seems to correlate but once you add in that 2nd category it goes up by £4-4.9m. Edited October 7, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 (edited) While I'm at it I forgot to ask you @Hxj Unsecured Football Creditors- is this a new thing? Cocu was described as such in the Telegraph this week, and John Percy is a journo I rate highly but I don't see how it works without Cocu's consent and is in accordance with EFL/FA regs. There were reports last year that he chose to forego some of his payoff which is fine- as long as he chose to. Alternatively there could have been some contractual clause that said he would only get x if sacked by y or if sacked at all- again he would have signed that and can have few complaints. Those scenarios aside though, there is nothing that I can see which enables the administrators to choose to get him to take a haircut and remain compliant with relevant regulations. Edited October 7, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Unsecured Football Creditors- is this a new thing? I don't believe so - I think that it is just a statement of the obvious of what Cocu's debt is. It is not secured (unlike MSD) and it is a Football Creditor. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Hxj said: I don't believe so - I think that it is just a statement of the obvious of what Cocu's debt is. It is not secured (unlike MSD) and it is a Football Creditor. Thanks. Ah yeah but the implication was that he wouldn't need to be paid in full as a result of this status. Think it even stated as much in the article...unsure the EFL would concur. If it's his choice or a contractual thing then the admin thing doesn't come into it so much. Could be sloppy reporting too. Quote Derby’s financial problems also include the £26 million owed to HM Revenue and Customs but Cocu, who was dismissed by Derby in November, will not receive his full compensation of around £5 million as he is now an unsecured football creditor. Again it goes against everything I have read on it. I assume that sources close to the club or close to the administrators might be the origin here. I wonder if the administrators are trying to class him as such- there's literally nothing anywhere that differentiates between classes of football creditor however, this aside. Edited October 7, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: the implication was that he wouldn't need to be paid in full as a result of this status There is some wriggle room in the EFL guidance and regulations - I think that the guidance uses the word 'may' when referring to agreements with ex-managers in the sense of 'those contracts may be football creditors'. Either way the English needs to be tightened up - the word 'fooball' or the word 'unsecured' should be omitted. Edited October 7, 2021 by Hxj 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 23 minutes ago, Hxj said: There is some wriggle room in the EFL guidance and regulations - I think that the guidance uses the word 'may' when referring to agreements with ex-managers in the sense of 'those contracts may be football creditors'. Either way the English needs to be tightened up - the word 'fooball' or the word 'unsecured' should be omitted. Thanks, will look to read up further on that- sounds a real new one. Golden share in exchange for settling of football creditor debt seems a fair bargaining chip also, indeed I've read that is a condition of financial restructuring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherDerbyFan Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 On 07/10/2021 at 08:11, Hxj said: I'm not convinced by those figures, as except for 2015/16 I can't tie them into the accounts. The relevant additional intangibles in 16/17 were £21.1 million and in 17/18 were £15.0 million and the 2018 accounts refer to acquisitions of £18.5 million. @AnotherDerbyFan's figures might be right, just presented differently. Those figures were from Transfermarkt. I may have used them at the time due to laziness. We can get more accurate figures off the post balance sheet purchases which covers summer transfers. Estimates still required for 19/20 onwards winter windows. PBSP = post balance sheet purchases So I take it these calcs to figure out the total for each season: 15/16 = 22.056 + Blackman + Camara + Olsson + 0.323 (winter agent fees) 16/17 = 14.184 + Nugent + McAllister + winter agent fees (total agent fees = 1.962) 17/18 = 12.763 + Jerome + winter agent fees (total agent fees = 2.180) 18/19 = 18.541 + winter agent fees (total agent fees = 4.293) 19/20 = Bielik + agent fees (total agent fees = 2.142) 20/21 = Jozwiak + Byrne + agent fees Estimated Totals: 15/16 = 27.559 16/17 = 17.034 17/18 = 14.293 18/19 = 19 19/20 = 9 20/21 = 4.2 @Mr Popodopolous average original contract length is 3.3 years, but the players signed for big fees were all 4 or 5 years 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leveller Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 I find it fascinating that there is in depth analysis of the accounts on OTIB, while there seems to be very little actual analysis in the Derby forum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 17 minutes ago, Leveller said: I find it fascinating that there is in depth analysis of the accounts on OTIB, while there seems to be very little actual analysis in the Derby forum. Yes. It’s fascinating the depths people will go to ignore the obvious and blame someone else! Cognitive Dissonance at its finest. We wuz framed by The EFL and a cabal of deep state football chairman lead by someone named Gibson guv! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherDerbyFan Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 4 hours ago, Leveller said: I find it fascinating that there is in depth analysis of the accounts on OTIB, while there seems to be very little actual analysis in the Derby forum. I'm amazed you read all 20k+ posts on the topic to come to that conclusion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 Going to have a very quick stab at the restated to 2019 when using the figures we have to hand as my guide once we factor in restatement of T-1 and T-2 to set the target in T. When I talk of Profit and Loss I am talking about the adjusted earnings as opposed to the actual pre tax profit or loss. Quote The final 3 year outcome therefore would have been- using the Derby method, a P&S loss of £21,487,000. Total 3 year amortisation to 2018 using the Derby method- as above clearly rounding will exist £14.95m Total 3 year amortisation 2019 using the straight line with extension method £35.93m Minus the additional £2m profit on Ince. £21,487,000 + £20,980,000-£2,000,000=£40,670,000. That's only a 3 point overspend though, not 4. Total 3 year amortisation using the straight line method £36.29m Minus the additional £2m profit on Ince. £21,487,000 + £21,340,000 - £2,000,000=£40,827,000. Again that's only a 3 point overspend, but not 4. The Ince profit in either case would change 3 to 4...but otherwise it's 3. That was it to 2018. To 2019! The loss using the Derby method in 2016/17 was £13,407,000. With amortisation of £5.04m as part of that. Pretty sure the player sales were academy products in that season with Ince the following? No adjustment on profit perhaps. With the 3 year amortisation using the straight line with extension method £12.58m- an increase of £7.54m With the 3 year amortisation using the straight line method £12.64m- an increase of £7.6m. Depending on which you choose, it's £13,407,000 rising to £20,947,000 or rising to £21,007,000. The profit using the Derby method in 2017/18 was £7,207,000. Using the Derby method the amortisation totalled £6.54m. Add in the Ince profit on disposal improvement of £2m as well and that's £9,207,000. With the 3 year amortisation using the straight line with extension method £14.10m- an increase of £7.56m. With the 3 year amortisation using the straight line method £14.29m- an increase of £7.75m. Either a profit therefore of £1,647,000 or £1,457,000. Resetting is an issue therefore, how do you reset to £13m losses? You can't! Resetting could give a huge advantage going into 2018/19 but not resetting could hinder. This is the issue, how do you assess 2018/19? The crudest and simplest way would be to assess the remaining £39m loss after these two methods. At this stage, straight line with extension methods gives a T-1 and T-2 aggregate of £19,300,000 with a target therefore of not exceeding £19,700,000 or failing that it gives a T-1 and T-2 aggregate of £19,550,000 therefore you cannot exceed a P&S loss of £19.450,000 in 2018/19 or you fail. Resetting 2016/17 to £13m though would give a huge advantage due to the profit in 2017/18 however. Anyway, the figure using the Derby way in 2018/19 as per the EFL written reasons- and this was updated post June 30th 2019- was £30.9m. Amortisation=£4.6m, £11.71m and £14.13m respectively but I also reckon an £11m improvement based on Vydra etc. £19.9m + £7.11m=£27.01m or + £9.53m=£29.43m. The reset causes an undoubted issue though. Like I said at the start, restating one set of 3 year accounts creates huge issues that span from then ie 2015/16 to the present day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 10 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said: We can get more accurate figures off the post balance sheet purchases which covers summer transfers. Estimates still required for 19/20 onwards winter windows. Thanks - appreciated. I have reworked the figures based upon the disclosed accounts figures and assuming that they are all 4 year contracts and on a straightline basis. 2015/16 2016/17 2017/18 2018/19 Upfront 30.65 21.10 15.00 18.50 Adjustment 0.00 5.56 3.96 2.22 Derby 3.37 5.04 6.54 4.60 Original 9.36 14.03 16.67 17.07 Adjustment -5.99 -8.99 -10.13 -12.47 Cumulative -5.99 -14.98 -25.11 -31.59 My estimates show the extent of the benefit gained by Derby. The Cumulative figures are the amounts by which the losses were possibly reduced in the three year FFP window by the non FRS 102 compliant amortisation adopted by Derby. Those figures may well be a couple of million out either way, but give a good impression. There may well also be adjustments necessary in respect of 'Profits' on sale. However it is clear that the level of advantage is significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 (edited) On 08/10/2021 at 12:50, AnotherDerbyFan said: Those figures were from Transfermarkt. I may have used them at the time due to laziness. We can get more accurate figures off the post balance sheet purchases which covers summer transfers. Estimates still required for 19/20 onwards winter windows. PBSP = post balance sheet purchases So I take it these calcs to figure out the total for each season: 15/16 = 22.056 + Blackman + Camara + Olsson + 0.323 (winter agent fees) 16/17 = 14.184 + Nugent + McAllister + winter agent fees (total agent fees = 1.962) 17/18 = 12.763 + Jerome + winter agent fees (total agent fees = 2.180) 18/19 = 18.541 + winter agent fees (total agent fees = 4.293) 19/20 = Bielik + agent fees (total agent fees = 2.142) 20/21 = Jozwiak + Byrne + agent fees Estimated Totals: 15/16 = 27.559 16/17 = 17.034 17/18 = 14.293 18/19 = 19 19/20 = 9 20/21 = 4.2 @Mr Popodopolous average original contract length is 3.3 years, but the players signed for big fees were all 4 or 5 years Thanks, will have a proper look at this over the weekend probably. Appreciated. What seems clear to me is that with restated accounts Derby have failed FFP to 2018 and given the Lampard year quite likely 2019. Although even under the Derby way assuming all amortised or impaired in the usual way for P&S if still in the Championship it seems like it would have been more a matter of when not if the fail comes Edited October 9, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 One more bit of news, BBC article suggests that Pride Park as part of any takeover would be sold for significantly less than it's 2018 sale price. Tax and P&S implications? I cannot see other clubs taking that well at all. As for tax, is this just for RPTs or is it applicable even if arms length? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 (edited) One more thing I forgot to ask @AnotherDerbyFan Apologies if already covered and I missed it, but the apparent separation out of Player Registrations which I assume to be the basic fee-and the other category- which is Transfer fee levies and associated costs- how are we treating this financially/accounting wise? Is this included in your overall figures as they too would need amortising surely. Edited October 9, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 Here we go….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishRed Posted October 9, 2021 Report Share Posted October 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Davefevs said: Here we go….. Paper talk surely...... Struggling to see what benefit he could get from that move. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loco Rojo Posted October 10, 2021 Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 Having a scan of their Forum, quite a few seem happy with this rumour. 1 even talking about PL in 5 years It's true what the say, turds really do attract flies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted October 10, 2021 Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 8 hours ago, ScottishRed said: Paper talk surely...... Struggling to see what benefit he could get from that move. Well he is on record saying that he makes most of his big decisions whilst drunk. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-40510882.amp 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted October 10, 2021 Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 8 hours ago, ScottishRed said: Struggling to see what benefit he could get from that move. Not letting my local prejudices getting in the way at all - but I can see a perfect match between the City of Derby, League One Derby County Football Club and SportsDirect. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted October 10, 2021 Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Hxj said: Not letting my local prejudices getting in the way at all - but I can see a perfect match between the City of Derby, League One Derby County Football Club and SportsDirect. Would it be League One's Wayne Rooney's Derby County or Wayne Rooney's League one Derby County? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted October 10, 2021 Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 15 minutes ago, downendcity said: Would it be League One's Wayne Rooney's Derby County or Wayne Rooney's League one Derby County? Since they would be the most important club in it Wayne Rooney`s Derby County`s League 1? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 10, 2021 Report Share Posted October 10, 2021 Big news. Seems that Derby are going to try to get the minus 12 halved citing Covid. Nixon article. Says that will cost them £300k, says that they will have to produce 6 years worth of accounts as evidence. Doesn't say anything about the 7 day limit but says that minus 9 might have been baked in ie halved administration deduction plus another 9 for FFP ie that Settlement and they think Derby can survive with minus 15. I hope that the EFL use anything and everything they can against Derby. Including the 23 man limit now and beyond. That aside, this sets a troubling precedent for the EFL if the appeal gets the deduction halved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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