Mr Popodopolous Posted November 17, 2021 Report Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) Interesting post on the Preston forum. A suggestion that at least two more clubs are close to deductions- one above and one below Preston. Will try to post the posts later but if it's 2, then I would suggest Stoke would be a decent candidate. Edited November 17, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 17, 2021 Report Share Posted November 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Interesting post on the Preston forum. A suggestion that at least two more clubs are close to deductions- one above and one below Preston. Will try to post the posts later but if it's 2, then I would suggest Stoke would be a decent candidate. Cardiff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unan Posted November 17, 2021 Report Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, billywedlock said: Their fans may just wake up and sing F the Morris. He absolutely rung them out . That he is not facing criminal charges shows weakness in our company structures set up. Not sure their damage is over yet, the administrators look to have found a very big pile of poo. Limited liability companies bread innovation, but that’s for another thread Edited November 17, 2021 by Marcus Aurelius 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loosey Boy Posted November 17, 2021 Report Share Posted November 17, 2021 30 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Cardiff? I do hope so! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted November 17, 2021 Report Share Posted November 17, 2021 46 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Interesting post on the Preston forum. A suggestion that at least two more clubs are close to deductions- one above and one below Preston. Will try to post the posts later but if it's 2, then I would suggest Stoke would be a decent candidate. Would we be surprised to see further points deductions this season though? Just given how long it can take the EFL to come to these decisions, it feels like even if proceedings were started now we'd see deductions for 2022/23 rather than anymore this term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 17, 2021 Report Share Posted November 17, 2021 1 minute ago, billywedlock said: I don’t actually agree with FFP . What I disagree with is club owners placing debt on a club with no intention of ever paying it . How can FFP make sense when the league allows the Prem league to artificially inflate the income of relegated clubs . Why is it not possible me for a wealthy owner to provide the same level of financial support to the same level. That is unfair competition and a nonsense .One club gets money via the Prem yet another is not allowed to invest at the same level . That is unfair competition. Why not allow any club to invest the same as a parachute payment club as a cash injection . Show the money of course and not a Mel Morris talk but no trousers Yep, needs to be cash injection or some form of bond deposited with the EFL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 17, 2021 Report Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: Cardiff? Do hope so! Although I struggle to see how, unless they are operating on the lower levels due to equity not being stuck in... Cardiff 2017/18- Upper Loss Limit £13m 2018/19- Upper Loss Limit £35m 2019/20- Upper Loss Limit £13m 2020/21- Upper Loss Limit £13m The last two averaged into one of course. FFP adjusted for Covid in this case is £13m + £35m + £13m + £13m=£74m. £74m/4 x 3=£55.5m. They would need to have exceeded *FFP losses of £55.5m *=Subject to equity, otherwise £15m. Or anything between £15-55.5m. Edited November 17, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 17, 2021 Report Share Posted November 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Do hope so! Although I struggle to see how, unless they are operating on the lower levels due to equity not being stuck in... Cardiff 2017/18- Upper Loss Limit £13m 2018/19- Upper Loss Limit £35m 2019/20- Upper Loss Limit £13m 2020/21- Upper Loss Limit £13m The last two averaged into one of course. FFP adjusted for Covid in this case is £13m + £35m + £13m + £13m=£74m. £74m/4 x 3=£55.5m. They would need to have exceeded *FFP losses of £55.5m *=Subject to equity, otherwise £15m. Or anything between £15-55.5m. Yeah, very unlikely they fail P&S….wishful thinking. Cant see any other team below PNE being in for P&S probs, unless Hull’s loan monitoring triggers something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted November 17, 2021 Report Share Posted November 17, 2021 50 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Yeah, very unlikely they fail P&S….wishful thinking. Cant see any other team below PNE being in for P&S probs, unless Hull’s loan monitoring triggers something. Not us is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 30 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: Not us is it? Nah….although next season might be interesting….as it will be several other clubs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 Just been thinking about the Derby v Reading points. Derby: If you sum the 3 periods they were over (ignore where they were inside), then they were £21.44m in excess. Reading: we’re £18.809m in excess, but worked with the EFL, unlike Mel Morris. That might account for the 3 points difference, albeit Reading have more points suspended and a longer period that suspended deduction lasts until. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 35 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Just been thinking about the Derby v Reading points. Derby: If you sum the 3 periods they were over (ignore where they were inside), then they were £21.44m in excess. Reading: we’re £18.809m in excess, but worked with the EFL, unlike Mel Morris. That might account for the 3 points difference, albeit Reading have more points suspended and a longer period that suspended deduction lasts until. I think my conclusion is that Derby have got off pretty lightly. They were egregious in their cheating, audacious with their attitude, frustrated the process at every turn, and yet in some ways have less punishment than Reading. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Davefevs said: Yeah, very unlikely they fail P&S….wishful thinking. Cant see any other team below PNE being in for P&S probs, unless Hull’s loan monitoring triggers something. Agreed- next season could be interesting as they would drop down to the £39m limit going into 2022/23 and starting point would be a greater loss or a loss as well. Unsure how the provisions- ie for Sala and other legal cases- all fit in, whether it could help or hinder them but their accounts do show provisions for both 2018/19 and 2019/20. Hull that's a good point, certainly wouldn't be a P&S breach in their case...probably just transfer restrictions but who knows. 3 hours ago, Port Said Red said: Not us is it? 2 hours ago, Davefevs said: Nah….although next season might be interesting….as it will be several other clubs. Definitely not to this year- next season as you say might be interesting but I think we will walk the line and do what is necessary within the rules as we always do- we will take tough decisions on the pitch in order to maintain compliance and some freedom off it. Edited November 18, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: I think my conclusion is that Derby have got off pretty lightly. They were egregious in their cheating, audacious with their attitude, frustrated the process at every turn, and yet in some ways have less punishment than Reading. Wouldn't disagree with much of that...although justice delayed is justice denied, it looks like justice will finally be served. Talking of the legal side...and by the way the fact that the EFL still have not seen Derby's 2018/19 and to a lesser extent, 2019/20 accounts is a bit of a shocker- the P&S calculations yes...but the actual accounts though? Even possible that they have not seen the re-stated accounts for 2016, 2017 and 2018! Wouldn't make a difference to the P&S scenario but it is fairly stunning seeing it written down. Yes, the legal side- you know the law better than me, you could probably explain a few things to the rest of us. These seem quite good and as I said the other day significant... 26 i) Well that is or should be a given. ii) Publish itself- assume that means on their website? That should be the consolidated rather than club surely. iii) A given but nice to see it upheld. iv) That seems fairly significant...the EFL must approve in advance any exceptional items that appear in their P&S. v) Well I wondered and thought it unlikely vi) Good. Removes the chance to try it on and reduce the target for this year. vii) Important- if we recall Sevco 5112 Limited took over and then Gellaw Newco 203 became the new Topco- hopefully it is not the club accounts in isolation for 2021/22 but the whole group in order to get a fair picture of P&S to this season. If we recall, Derby included most of the income from the Group- Club DCFC, The Derby County FC Academy Limited, Stadia DCFC Limited in the club accounts but some of the costs were in the Sevco 5112 Limited. That above is the group/consolidated...vs the club below. 2018 is comparable 12 months vs 12 months but the above for 2017 is 10 months. Granted the EFL use of the consolidated would halt any FFP issue there but if not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherDerbyFan Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Interesting post on the Preston forum. A suggestion that at least two more clubs are close to deductions- one above and one below Preston. Will try to post the posts later but if it's 2, then I would suggest Stoke would be a decent candidate. Stoke and Blackburn would have been where my money went - but both are above Preston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said: Stoke and Blackburn would have been where my money went - but both are above Preston Stoke - agreed. Just been tweeting with Andy - a fanalyst for Blackburn. He reckons they are totally ok, as they sold the training ground and Armstrong. Although Armstrong might only have netted them a smaller figure due to Newcastle have a 40% sell-on profit clause. So £15m on a £5m buy ends up being £11m received net….but 3 years into a 4 year deal, so book value £1.25m, so still tidy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semblar Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Do hope so! Although I struggle to see how, unless they are operating on the lower levels due to equity not being stuck in... Cardiff 2017/18- Upper Loss Limit £13m 2018/19- Upper Loss Limit £35m 2019/20- Upper Loss Limit £13m 2020/21- Upper Loss Limit £13m The last two averaged into one of course. FFP adjusted for Covid in this case is £13m + £35m + £13m + £13m=£74m. £74m/4 x 3=£55.5m. They would need to have exceeded *FFP losses of £55.5m *=Subject to equity, otherwise £15m. Or anything between £15-55.5m. Is this how it works with the COVID-averaging? I thought it was 13 + (35 + 13)/2 + 13 = 50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 14 minutes ago, semblar said: Is this how it works with the COVID-averaging? I thought it was 13 + (35 + 13)/2 + 13 = 50 That’s how I thought it would work too….but Mr P did it explain it to me once before…..he’s gonna need to explain it again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 50 minutes ago, Davefevs said: That’s how I thought it would work too But being FFP it doesn't - @Mr Popodopolous is correct, the regulations state: 3.4 In respect of Season 2020/21, the Lower Loss Threshold and Upper Loss Threshold for each Club shall be calculated based on the aggregation of the Club’s Annual Lower Loss Threshold and Annual Upper Loss Threshold for T, T-1, T-2 and T-3 as per the figures set out table in Rule 3.1 as amended by dividing those figures by 4 and then multiplied them by 3. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 10 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: vii) Important What vii) also does is keep the Stadium Group outside the FFP group. Under the current rules the new owner could put a new TopCo in place above both the 'Football Group' and the 'Stadium Group' and unilaterly decide to nominate 'TopCo' as the FFP group. It also means that the lease rent will be a deduction for FFP purposes, restricting the losses that can be incurred elsewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Hxj said: But being FFP it doesn't - @Mr Popodopolous is correct, the regulations state: 3.4 In respect of Season 2020/21, the Lower Loss Threshold and Upper Loss Threshold for each Club shall be calculated based on the aggregation of the Club’s Annual Lower Loss Threshold and Annual Upper Loss Threshold for T, T-1, T-2 and T-3 as per the figures set out table in Rule 3.1 as amended by dividing those figures by 4 and then multiplied them by 3. Ta. Ah, I recall this now….that is the formula for working out the overall “threshold”. However am I right in thinking the actual amount of losses is still what is submitted, but the 19/20 and 20/21 years are aggregated and halved? So a club with a PL season will be 35,13,13,13 = 74 / 4 * 3 = 55.5 allowance But in terms of inside or outside the allowance. £10m loss in 18/19 £20m loss in 19/20 £30m loss in 20/21 £30m loss in 21/22 would not be £90m / 4 * 3 = £67.5m but £10m + (£50m/2) + £30m = £65m? Edited November 18, 2021 by Davefevs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 17 minutes ago, Davefevs said: would not be £90m / 4 * 3 = £67.5m but £10m + (£50m/2) + £30m = £65m? Yep. There's a simple way of doing things ...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Hxj said: What vii) also does is keep the Stadium Group outside the FFP group. Under the current rules the new owner could put a new TopCo in place above both the 'Football Group' and the 'Stadium Group' and unilaterly decide to nominate 'TopCo' as the FFP group. It also means that the lease rent will be a deduction for FFP purposes, restricting the losses that can be incurred elsewhere. Thanks. Interesting to see how that plays out and what the rent- or fair value rent substituted in for FFP purposes- might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherDerbyFan Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Davefevs said: Ta. Ah, I recall this now….that is the formula for working out the overall “threshold”. However am I right in thinking the actual amount of losses is still what is submitted, but the 19/20 and 20/21 years are aggregated and halved? So a club with a PL season will be 35,13,13,13 = 74 / 4 * 3 = 55.5 allowance But in terms of inside or outside the allowance. £10m loss in 18/19 £20m loss in 19/20 £30m loss in 20/21 £30m loss in 21/22 would not be £90m / 4 * 3 = £67.5m but £10m + (£50m/2) + £30m = £65m? Surely not? 4 seasons in the Championship would be 13,13,13,13 = 52/4*3 = £9.75m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 15 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said: 4 seasons in the Championship would be 13,13,13,13 = 52/4*3 = £9.75m Looks like your calculator is the one that Morris and Pearce used! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherDerbyFan Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Hxj said: Looks like your calculator is the one that Morris and Pearce used! oh dear... *delete* *delete* *delete* Edited November 18, 2021 by AnotherDerbyFan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 18, 2021 Report Share Posted November 18, 2021 1 hour ago, AnotherDerbyFan said: Surely not? 4 seasons in the Championship would be 13,13,13,13 = 52/4*3 = £9.75m 26 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said: oh dear... *delete* *delete* *delete* The calculator is working to an EFL conspiracy! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerseybean Posted November 19, 2021 Report Share Posted November 19, 2021 Wayne’s delusions seem to be getting worse…..https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59263716 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 19, 2021 Report Share Posted November 19, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jerseybean said: Wayne’s delusions seem to be getting worse…..https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59263716 No guarantees they’ll even make it through the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted November 19, 2021 Report Share Posted November 19, 2021 Just trying to get a siege mentality going - us against the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.