Davefevs Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 Would imagine that this is a good indication that Reading will get 9+3 too. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Hxj said: I'll let Gabay off - with a European arrest warrant and an extradition case - even I have some sympathy! Not so tied up as to avoid paperwork relating to Dividend Withholding Tax reclaims, it is suggested... I've less sympathy this end.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 (edited) Jolly good. Glad to see the spurious Force Majeure claim seems to have been given the short shrift it deserves. Hopefully we will see some reasoning for that at some point. Has anyone said what the 3 suspended points could be enacted for? How long are they suspended for etc? Gives certainty for prospective buyers as well - they're buying a league 1 club. That's good in terms of avoiding liquidation. For all Morris and Derby's sins I wouldn't want one of the old ladies of English football to liquidate. Edited November 10, 2021 by ExiledAjax 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 17 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: Not so tied up as to avoid paperwork relating to Dividend Withholding Tax reclaims, it is suggested... That was some time ago and it was a sophisticated fraud, lots and lots of multiple sets of paperwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: I believe the club need a relatively quick and clean conclusion more than the EFL do. I'll settle for -21 as a quick and clean conclusion. Now the real battle for the Administrators starts - keeping the club from Liquidation - which would be a tragic end to a terrible soap opera over the last few years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 From a selfish perspective, they are down. So only two relegation places up for grabs! Reading look set for a 12 point deduction, which would take them back to 10 pts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 (edited) It's good news- the EFL have not folded it would seem. Accepting the minus 21 seems like it should have been the best decision from the start although I question whether Mel Morris truly had to put them into administration financially from his perspective but that's a different debate. Accept the -21, in order to conserve energy and time for the negotiations with HMRC etc. I'm sure they'll survive as a club, even Bury aren't insolvent yet- the administrators initially had the right idea talking about absorbing all the pain in one fell swoop but then suddenly started talking about fighting the administration deduction- did they burn some valuable time in doing so? Despite some of my past rants however, I've never seriously considered that Derby would go bust and nor would I want them to. Mel Morris is to blame for their predicament- and possibly to an extent Stephen Pearce the CEO- but certainly Mel Morris. Matt Hughes, he has been vindicated- what he said it would be in Jan 2020 was -21 albeit this seems to have been achieved through a fairly different route. Once the -21 is finally ratified ie the separate deductions, and the business plan is signed off then I think we can be fairly confident that Derby will be in League One next season. Edited November 10, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 @ExiledAjaxthe minus 3 is suspended, and comes into force if they fail to pay wages. Think it’s suspended to June 2022. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 Mel Morris is a dreadful little man. However many Derby supporters appear to still believe he is some kind demigod and that the whole thing is an EFL vendetta against poor old us! My personal hope is they end up way lower than league one, just for the delusional nutBagery that emanates from and throughout that bloody club 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: the administrators initially had the right idea talking about absorbing all the pain in one fell swoop but then suddenly started talking about fighting the administration deduction- Posturing, perhaps to impress the fans, who did indeed fall for it hook line and sinker. I have little sympathy for them, they cheered Morris on to destruction then expected special treatment because, well, it's Derby County innit? Glad the club should now survive but let's hope this acts as a deterrent to other chancers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, chinapig said: Posturing, perhaps to impress the fans, who did indeed fall for it hook line and sinker. I have little sympathy for them, they cheered Morris on to destruction then expected special treatment because, well, it's Derby County innit? Glad the club should now survive but let's hope this acts as a deterrent to other chancers. Long way to go yet, got to find a buyer willing to buy a Lg1-bound club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Oil Services Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 39 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said: From a selfish perspective, they are down. So only two relegation places up for grabs! Reading look set for a 12 point deduction, which would take them back to 10 pts. So, only two relegation places up for grabs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 19 minutes ago, Davefevs said: @ExiledAjaxthe minus 3 is suspended, and comes into force if they fail to pay wages. Think it’s suspended to June 2022. Cheers. So just for this season, and is tied to wage payment. Seems a tad redundant to have it apply to this season, but presumably this is dictated by the sentencing guidelines (or whatever the equivalent document is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 44 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said: From a selfish perspective, they are down. So only two relegation places up for grabs! Reading look set for a 12 point deduction, which would take them back to 10 pts. Rumours of 9 plus 3 suspended. So they’d go down to 21st on 13 points if so. If 12, even better. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 53 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Long way to go yet, got to find a buyer willing to buy a Lg1-bound club. Sure, though I felt all along that the uncertainty made it harder to sell. The administrators weren't doing the club any favours by dragging it out. Much depends on whether there really are 3 credible parties of course and what can be agreed with creditors but I'd be surprised if this ends in liquidation now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Hxj said: That was some time ago and it was a sophisticated fraud, lots and lots of multiple sets of paperwork. My point exactly. If he could manage it then, he could man....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 11 minutes ago, chinapig said: Much depends on whether there really are 3 credible parties of course and what can be agreed with creditors but I'd be surprised if this ends in liquidation now. Yep, Is there a rule about a certain percentage of creditors accepting x pence in the pound? HMRC and Football creditors need to be paid in full don’t they or is it just that they are “preferential”? Wasn’t that £50m before you get to next tier of creditors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 24 minutes ago, chinapig said: Sure, though I felt all along that the uncertainty made it harder to sell. The administrators weren't doing the club any favours by dragging it out. Much depends on whether there really are 3 credible parties of course and what can be agreed with creditors but I'd be surprised if this ends in liquidation now. I agree. I did say as much previously too. The fact that the administrators ‘reluctantly’ accept the nine points says to me they tried but always knew (as did anyone outside of Derbyshire) it was a huge Hail Mary. Credible buyer who knows. The club is almost valueless the ground has value but isn’t the clubs ‘probably ‘ and 25m minimum debt to The taxapeyers before anyone else. I think zipswich cost about 20m, please someone go ahead and correct me, thus I’m not so sure who would buy it unless it’s someone who doesn’t care about the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Yep, Is there a rule about a certain percentage of creditors accepting x pence in the pound? HMRC and Football creditors need to be paid in full don’t they or is it just that they are “preferential”? Wasn’t that £50m before you get to next tier of creditors? From memory but this is tied to EFL regs. *Football creditors must be paid in full. *Secured creditors will be paid in full although this might be Mel's debt? @Hxj mentioned a new charge on Gellaw Newco 202. Possibly the debt would be laid by a new owner and the Ground reunited with the ck *HMRC- Think certain categories are now preferential, unsure if that means they have to be paid in full for those portions of the debt. Other creditors, unsecured and it may also include HMRC depending on how it shakes down, need to be paid 25p in the pound, rising to 35p if over 3 years. Failure to fulfil the obligation would lead to a further 15 point deduction. Plus of course the cash for the administration firm, that of course is guaranteed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, chinapig said: I'd be surprised if this ends in liquidation now. I wouldn't. HMRC's published position is clear. All Creditors of the same class need to be paid the same or we will vote against the arrangement. Football Creditors are not preferential creditors just normal creditors. Therefore if Football Creditors are paid in full then all creditors have to be paid in full. I suspect that HMRC will have sufficient votes (£1 debt = 1 vote) to stop any arrangement that doesn't do this. If you doubt this and suspect that HMRC will fold please read the Portsmouth decision - HMRC v Portsmouth City Football Club Ltd & Ors I appreciate that I have been 'banging on' about this, but it really is an issue. Edited November 10, 2021 by Hxj 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, Hxj said: I wouldn't. HMRC's published position is clear. All Creditors of the same class need to be paid the same or we will vote against the arrangement. Football Creditors are not preferential creditors just normal creditors. Therefore if Football Creditors are paid in full then all creditors have to be paid in full. I suspect that HMRC will have sufficient votes (£1 debt = £1 vote) to stop any arrangement that doesn't do this. If you doubt this and suspect that HMRC will fold please read the Portsmouth decision - HMRC v Portsmouth City Football Club Ltd & Ors I appreciate that I have been 'banging on' about this, but it really is an issue. I defer to your expertise in this of course. I think I am right in saying Arsenal deferred a payment due so there may be a resolution to the football creditor issue perhaps by rescheduling payments. HMRC is the key as you say. Might it lead to a party buying the club for a trivial sum but taking responsibility for the debt for instance? On reflection it may be more touch and go than I suggested! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 (edited) 30 minutes ago, chinapig said: Arsenal deferred a payment They did - but that only has an impact whilst the company is in Administration - it's only a cash flow impact as well - they will still want their money! 30 minutes ago, chinapig said: Might it lead to a party buying the club for a trivial sum but taking responsibility for the debt for instance? It might, but they will still have to pay them off in full. 30 minutes ago, chinapig said: I defer to your expertise in this of course. That's a dangerous step - always do your own research and make your own mind up - all this is in my humble opinion! Edited November 10, 2021 by Hxj 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 Some classics on twitter, now having a go at Percy because last week it was reported it might be minus 3 points, and he’d built their hopes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waconda Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 4 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said: From a selfish perspective, they are down. So only two relegation places up for grabs! Reading look set for a 12 point deduction, which would take them back to 10 pts. We are struggling to avoid that last place unless we improve massively. Not sure where the next win is coming from playing like we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted November 11, 2021 Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 57 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Some classics on twitter, now having a go at Percy because last week it was reported it might be minus 3 points, and he’d built their hopes up. This is one occasion where their forum is pretty good as well. A couple essentially arguing that the administrators (the guys who are basically the go to football club admins) are incompetent, corrupt, or just didn't try very hard. Exceptional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted November 11, 2021 Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 48 minutes ago, VT05763 said: We are struggling to avoid that last place unless we improve massively. Not sure where the next win is coming from playing like we are. K, well we've beaten Posh and Barnsley. Hull to come in Dec, so we'll see. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 11, 2021 Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 10 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said: K, well we've beaten Posh and Barnsley. Hull to come in Dec, so we'll see. Yep, our last win was ages ago wasn’t it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waconda Posted November 11, 2021 Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 6 hours ago, Davefevs said: Yep, our last win was ages ago wasn’t it We have won 2 in 8. We need to improve or will be relegated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCbrs Posted November 11, 2021 Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 11 hours ago, REDOXO said: Mel Morris is a dreadful little man. However many Derby supporters appear to still believe he is some kind demigod and that the whole thing is an EFL vendetta against poor old us! My personal hope is they end up way lower than league one, just for the delusional nutBagery that emanates from and throughout that bloody club What a word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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