firstdivision

54 minutes ago, Manon said:

Tbf I think they're all gonna miss!

But Bell didn't miss. It was saved.

It was one of those, granted, at the 'wrong' height, but the keeper goes the other way and no one bats an eye and calls it a good pen.  

Misses a penalty is a generic term as you well know. 
And it was a poor penalty: no deception in it, nice height, not in the corner. But someone has got to miss. So no blame. He played well. 

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

With the trips on vpn airways and streaming services, tonight felt like a trip down memory lane, where most of us would be listening to away games on the radio and waiting for the first fans to arrive back and start a thread or a post with “just back from….”!

Was quite enjoyable listening to BBCRB again, been a few years.

So anyone that’s been, be good to hear what it was really like.

For the second week in a row, we recreated one of the most famous full-time scores in our history. And we come away disappointed.

it was a mad, fun night. Bit of passion on and off. Ticket chaos. I, like many others, missed the first 20 minutes. They didn’t have my ticket. But somehow rustled one up after a long wait. There were hundreds, possibly thousands - home and away - still outside the ground at ko. 

We played well. Williams and a few others were outstanding (eg Vyner and Dickie, Bell. Even Mehmeti got involved and lasted the course). I don’t know how we didn’t score in that second period of extra time. (Well, I do. It’s us…obvs.)

We didn’t pass to Knight-Lebel at wing-back. He was just a body, trying to bottle up the right. 

I knew we’d lose the shoot-out. PL shooters and they took first pen (statistical bonus, as you know). I said to the bloke next to me when Bell was poised: ‘he’s going to miss this’. You could see it. But some poor bloke has got to miss. If Nakhi had converted his cross (delightful move by the way), we wouldn’t have needed the tears. 

Interesting night. Sad outcome. But better than listening on the radio. 

21 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

But with a few more options. 

The team last night did well, but that bench will look a lot stronger Saturday. Sounds like Knight-Lebel did well and I was impressed with his composure at Cardiff, but I doubt him , Backwell and Taylor-Clark make it Saturday. 
We will have Pring , TGH , Mebude and possibly Twine and Sykes available. That means , even without Atkinson some first teamers miss out.
Before last night King would be easy to drop, but he sounded very good, could James or Knight miss out with niggles or tiredness ?
If Twine and Sykes are passed fit does that mean a switch and Bell and Mehmeti drop out ?
You would think that Pring is an auto choice, but did Roberts do enough for another run ?

Good problems to have for a change, I wonder if Manning enjoyed the football from the back 4 enough to stick with it . We sounded and from highlights , looked more of a threat than we have done . 
The choice of players comes down to the shape/system LM prefers against M'Boro . A 4 allows more attacking players, but a 3/5 might be the choice for a tough game away to a good side , though only average in the form table (2W-2D-2L). 
I would expect a change in MF, if fully fit James will probably start and TGH could come in after effectively having a rest. Another great game from Williams, but due a rest ? Was there more in Knight coming off on the hour ? Possibly not , maybe just gaining full fitness after the illness. It's great to have options centrally where they do so much work, Pring too deserved the enforced rest. 

I'm usually interested and keen for the team sheet before a game, Saturday's will be really interesting for so many reasons. Not just as it could be the first time the bench will be and full with genuine experienced first team players.

Turn up, see who’s not knackered/unfit, and try to take on a side that is at home and has had six days to prepare. Tall order. Getting something from the game will be a significant achievement. 

5 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I get your point. And you’re right, in the context of our history - nine seasons in the Championship is not to be scoffed at.

But there’s a wider context as well. The context that has us as the biggest club in the South West, with no Premier League club within 100 miles. A club in the 10th(ish) biggest city in the country. A club with a top class stadium and training facilities. A club capable of taking 45,000 fans to London for a game against Walsall. A club that has watched Bournemouth, Swansea, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Blackpool, Luton, Cardiff, Burnley, Wigan, Brentford, Stoke and Reading all surpass our own achievements in the modern era by playing in the Premier League.

Looking at our own history as a barometer for our success does nothing but highlight just how pathetically little we have achieved as a club for generations. I don’t want to be told to be grateful for 9 straight seasons in the second tier.

We were writing very similar posts at the exact same time.

No one is telling you to be grateful. I was merely trying to give some context: one poster said we were in the doldrums. I remember drawing 0-0 with Chester in front of 3,000 at home in the 80s. That was the doldrums. 
And I wonder what would have happened if Dean Windass’ shot had flown over the bar.

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I can see the logic in this. I was just talking to my wife today how the experience my kids get of watching the 6th best league in the world in a fantastic stadium pisses in a lot of ways on my experience of competing with Mansfield and Gillingham in the old third division while stood on a piss soaked east end.

But.

But.

Is this it? Is this what I stood at fellows park with West Midlands police blocking my view for? Is this what I drove through multiple accidents and arrived when 3-0 down at Gigg Lane for? Is this what I walked through the shitty streets of Burslem for?

Football, as life, is about progress. We’re all built that way - to do better. This is what I went through all those things for. But now I’m there - I want more. So should the club.

I don’t want piss in my pockets. But I do want ambition.

 

Of course. I’m definitely on for beating Real Madrid in the Champions League final. It’s my fantasy day. But things aren’t as bad we can make them seem. And no one quite knows who can deliver what we want and when they will deliver it. We can guess but no one knows. So Liam Manning deserves some patience and a couple of windows. 

24 minutes ago, mason said:

9 seasons of hope and little else, 9 seasons of stagnation, 9 seasons of cashing in on our best players, the latest window has brought in loaned players who wont be here next season and some young guns who may stopover on their journey to the south coast, or elsewhere;

While we well what? stay for another 9 seasons repeating,repeating...another manager...another bright hope another window etc.

Nothings changed same sh1te different season, another manager more hope spouted; season already written off as plans for the next window/season are rolled out.

Nearly all sport is about failure if you think about it. I know Manchester United supporters who are constantly bemoaning their lot. Best to try to enjoy the wins and not get too distraught about the losses. We support a club that’s never been that good. And probably never will be. But when the good moments come, they are a bit sweeter. I went to the West Ham game with my two daughters. It’s now become a cherished memory. Transient, yes. Because there’s always another round or a game to lose. But special in its own way. Nine seasons in the Championship is not to be scoffed at when you’ve seen us in L1 and L2.

10 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Dont call me Silvano!!!

I don’t know if you’ve read Fever Pitch but there’s a great passage in there where Nick Hornby articulates how much simpler things were when he was younger (and remember this was the 90s it was written). Players signed for Arsenal must have been good or they wouldn’t have signed them, and why would the England manager not pick the best team -  clearly they were the best players!

As time goes on Nick got to see more football and formed more opinions. So his logic fell apart. And it wasn’t a good feeling.

My point is that Nick began to develop opinions quicker the more football he consumed, and the easier it was to consume it. And the parallel here is that if you go back even 2 years, there wasnt the same access to all games, people watching on VPN etc. it’s not necessarily a social media thing, it’s an availability thing - people see more, and right now many people would have only seen 7 LM games 5 years ago as opposed to the full amount. So, I think the increased scrutiny is a function of increased information. And that’s probably a good thing, handled properly.

I’m sure this is right. Not many would see a dog performance in the north in, say, the 80s, 90s, or 2000s.

I remember going to Northampton in December 1983. We lost 1-0, stank the place out and had two players sent off. Might have been 400 of us there. There was no one to howl at in the evening, or anywhere to do it. 

Wonder if the Stoke forum will be in meltdown tonight.

33 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I guess you've never played football yourself. Preston at H was played in a howling gale. Man City would have struggled in that. Please let's have some context. It was a poor match, but mot a dire performance. 

a) you’ve guessed wrong b) Preston managed to play some incisive football in the second half. They were very good, in fact. It was possible to play. We were poor and fortunate to get a point. 

8 minutes ago, mason said:

I`ve also watched City for close on 60yrs now and attended games in all 4 divisions, now run by what I feel are poor uninterested leaders who really should be pushing us on by now rather than going around and around.

Fair play to those who hope for better in the next window etc or next manager change needed higher up than that for me anyway.

We`ve been in the doldrums for far too long

We’ve been in the Championship for the last nine seasons though. As I’ve said before, that compares extremely favourably with our 130-odd year history. And 15 of the last 17. I accept your point if the doldrums are anything but the PL. 

Leeds also thrashed us 2-1 at their place earlier in the season. We barely got a kick at Leicester in a 1-0 defeat. We were pretty dire against Brum at home. And at home to Preston on the first day. It's not just now, it was then.  Yes. we were poor last night and, yes, I was swearing a lot but we've generally been ok in recent weeks. And we played at Cov three days before and Leeds had a free week. Believe it or not, that does make a difference, especially against a very good side, who were much better than Forest as I thought they would be.  

I've watched City for 53 years. I won't be giving up until someone burns me. You take the rough with the even rougher, and sometimes the smooth. Calm down. Support. Be patient. It's the only way, I'm afraid. Not very modern, but the only way when you think about it. 

29 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Nail on head

We are trying to keep possession but we are absolutely shite at it

39% possession for a possession team 

Meanwhile we are forgetting our strengths of direct (not long ball) play which brought us so much success under Pearson 

So much success? I do like the odd afternoon nap but I must have nodded off for a bit longer than I thought. 

6 minutes ago, Jimbo76 said:

Really surprised by some of the comments on various threads tonight.

We lost 1-0 to a team that are basically a premier League team and will be again next season.

If we play well against West Ham or Forest and then have an inferior performance, it's not because we have a bad team, it's because we don't have a strong squad.

Leeds can bring players off the bench that we couldn't buy for the first team.

Key injuries plus 7 games in 3 weeks, or whatever it is, means our lack of squad depth is exposed. The likes of Williams, James, even Pring, can't play at the required intensity in so many games.

For me, it was most evident in the back 3 tonight. All 3 making so many errors despite high praise recently. Bottom line, they have to play every game because we have no choice. But the result is inevitable. 

I have no criticism of Manning or the players. Our current squad lacks the quality in depth to have sufficient rotation and to play quick succession matches at the required tempo.

This post is far too sensible. You won’t get much of a hearing on here tonight. 

Expecting Leeds to be more of a handful than Forest last Friday night. Crowd needs to give it some of that underdog support. Be nice to see the South Stand actually full on a 'sold-out' night. I'd take a draw, unless we're leading with five minutes left #coventry.

34 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Good point at a form team , but....

Sloppy passing costs us so much possession.
Wasted so many crossing opportunities , if we got points for hitting the first man we'd be top.
I've defended Max before now , but that was shocking. First day at keeper school stuff, push the ball away ffs.
Mehmeti is the most frustrating player I've watched for years.
Sam Bell, never more than ok and never imposes himself on the game.
Could easily have won that, just not tidy enough in possession or clinical enough in the last 3rd.

A word for Leigh Doughty, thought he was great for Cov tonight . Broke up lots of our attacks , and helped them onto the front foot by making them take a free kick every time they fell over. 
Ellis wasn't off side though, so can't blame him for that.

I’m sure Anis is a lovey chap and all, but I honestly think he might cause me to have a stroke before the end of the season. 

Coventry 2 Bristol City 2 - one of the most famous results in our history. Fair to say I don’t feel quite as elated as I did in May 1977. 

15 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Just pondering.

I know LM isn’t wedded by formations, he sees things as very different, and I tend to agree.

But…

in going to a back three type system, imho we are losing out at the top end of the pitch.  I know that number of strikers on the pitch doesn’t equal more goals, but it’s more subtle implications than that.

As it stands if we play the system we played yesterday we have:

McCrorie, Tanner, Vyner, Dickie, Pring as our “back line” (ignore their FIFA positional references)

And five “attackers”

I wonder how Mehmeti felt yesterday, firstly as Twine started, but then not getting on to the pitch.  I, not suggesting Twine shouldn’t start, it’s now wondering how LM will man-manage Anis, because he’ll likely start against Forest, then be back on the bench for Coventry.  This is off the back of a mini-resurgence under LM.  A situation to man-manage.  Not saying LM can’t do it, just wondering how it will play out.  The same might occur for Mark Sykes too.  Sykes has been one of our best players this season.

Secondly, LM has said that he’s had to play his back four every minute of every game since he’s been here.  The return to fitness of McCrorie allows him opportunity to rest / rotate, but he can’t do that if all 5 start each game.  One to watch play out too.

Finally, as a back four we’ve been very solid.  What thinking necessitated the change.  A one-off gameplan for West Ham, extended to Watford?

Thoughts?

My sense is that part of his thinking is that he wanted McCrorie in but couldn't quite trust him to be right-back after so long out, not least because he couldn't last the game/pace. He also recognised that Tanner has been defensively excellent. The formation also lets Pring play further up the pitch. Something like that, while also recognising that it might work against a team like WHU where we needed to be really sharp defensively.

I'll be interested to see if we go to a back four once McCrorie is fully match fit. Or if his plan all along was to play McCrorie and Pring as wing backs. 

Joe needs to be careful. There’s a fragile fine line these days between a good tackle and an aggressive one. Some refs will have seen that last night and have it their minds in future.
 

As I’ve said before, there’s a difference between what we want the laws to be and what they are.

20 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Surely as a bare minimum you expect some progress in 20-odd years, even if to stand still.  Other clubs have moved further forward than us, that is the problem.  Some have gone backwards admittedly.

He has always backed us….until now.  And like you it’s now time he sells us, or hands over to Jon.  I’m guessing he’d need to gift Jon a wedge to put in every year too, because I’m not sure Jon has the funds in his own right.

1980-2004: six seasons in the Championship (two of which were relegation seasons)

2004-2024: 15 seasons in the Championship (including a play-off final + one relegation season.)

I don’t know if he should sell or stick but surely we are a more stable/successful club under him than we were, albeit not as successful as we would like/some think we should be. 
 

(I know we were coming back from financial disaster in 1980 but by 84-85 we were close to the second tier again).

20 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Surely as a bare minimum you expect some progress in 20-odd years, even if to stand still.  Other clubs have moved further forward than us, that is the problem.  Some have gone backwards admittedly.

He has always backed us….until now.  And like you it’s now time he sells us, or hands over to Jon.  I’m guessing he’d need to gift Jon a wedge to put in every year too, because I’m not sure Jon has the funds in his own right.

1980-2004: six seasons in the Championship (two of which were relegation seasons)

2004-2024: 15 seasons in the Championship (including a play-off final + one relegation season.)

I don’t know if he should sell or stick but surely we are a more stable/successful club under him than we were, albeit not as successful as we would like/some think we should be. 
 

(I know we were coming back from financial disaster in 1980 but by 84-85 we were close to the second tier again).

6 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Might suit us.

Let's hope so. It'll be lively on here if we lose five in a row. (Mind you, it'll be lively on here if we don't win five in a row.)

1 hour ago, petehinton said:

One thing that strikes me from yesterdays interview, and mentioned this to @Davefevs, is that he’s talking like a man that was powerless to make any change to counter the changes that Preston made. 
 

Made the point in the MTD, but him saying (paraphrased) “they didn’t do anything special, they just went direct” is a bit alarming to me. Basically shrugging off that it’s not a ‘good’ change up because it’s not a tactical masterclass type switch up.

As a few have said, Watford is going to be really intriguing as we’ll be able to see the real make up of Ismael, who’ll no doubt have rewatched our mauling of them many times to see what can be done to counter that. And how can our Liam get the side to react to these changes?

 

It was also what I would call a long-ball/set-piece pitch. It was not easy moving the ball quickly along the ground (unless you are technically excellent like Manchester City etc). My observation on that is did we have the players to change it? McCrorie, in a re-jigged back line, possibly only had 20-30 minutes in him. Knight-Lebel has hardly played. Could we go more direct? Not obviously so if you look at the bench. 

Also, all coaches would expect their team to be able to deal with the first goal (and the second really). But Preston did have more menace after the changes. Max's save from Keane must have been close to his best of the season.

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

I’m not sure Watford is the game Manning would pick to end the current three match slump without a goal. They will be up for it, have very good individual players and previous for big wins away from home. Will be interesting Saturday because another home defeat will piss people right off.

Also, Watford is  followed by Coventry (a), Leeds (h), Boro (a), Southampton (h). Good luck with that little lot. 

39 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

20 years of poor decisions though isn’t it? Okay, Lansdown might have got one decision right in appointing Gary Johnson, but then what else? Steve Cotterill was Keith Dawe’s work.

The point is, it’s been 20 years of poor decisions, false promises and silence for the most part.

If all the decisions had been poor, we wouldn’t have been in the Championship for 14 seasons in the last 20. Life - probably even yours - is full of good decisions and bad. 

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

I’ve been accepting of counter attacking football at home for 4-5 seasons because the budget issues at Board level that caused us problems demanded it. I believe you might comment “some perspective you see”. Nothing clever is it? However the hierarchy have promised something more attacking and front foot THEIR WORDS not mine or anyone else’s. Let’s see them deliver it now.

I agree. Let’s see. Liam Manning has had 13 games in charge and no transfer windows. I’m afraid some patience is required, however frustrating yesterday’s defeat was - and it was extremely frustrating. We were awful in the second half. 

12 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

If stats are the only thing that matter we should all buy a newspaper on a Sunday and sod the season ticket. For literally YEARS now the entertainment on offer has been sub-standard due to various issues and it’s not sustainable moving forward. Watching dull Championship football for years on end is grating for many. We have Ipswich McCarthy era written all over us unless the hierarchy act.

Who said that stats are the only thing that matter? I was merely offering some perspective to the observation that we’ve failed for 20 years.
 

Also, I got quite excited at Watford on Boxing Day, at West Ham last week (albeit I had to keep quiet because I was among the home fans), at home to Plymouth earlier in the season, watching the second half of the Hull match, watching the last fifteen minutes at Rotherham etc. I really loved the backs-to-the-wall win over Sunderland as well. 
Unless you support Man City or Spurs, there are bound to be dull moments. Actually, the dull moments make the exciting moments more special. I can remember some dross from the 1970s, eg a 2-0 NYD defeat at home to Orient, a home defeat to Forest the year we got promotion (21 Feb 1976). I could go on…some perspective, you see.