AnAstonVillafan

1 hour ago, Vincent Vega said:

Last minute takeover one season, pandemic the next. They like flirting with danger thats for sure.

Relegation is looming. We will sell players, some for more than what we paid for them.

And we will aquire players too. Nothing unusual here.

I think we will be in good shape.

12 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The arrogance of some of their online idiots- read this on a Tweet when looking up some quick Championship FFP news:

Somewhat of a gobshite- and that's being kind. I really hope that not only due to the spending and still for me open questions over the methods used, that because of jokers like this Tweeter the powers that be at the EFL find a way to make charges stick, find something and they get absolutely rinsed.

 

Social media and the Internet in fairness can amplify the idiots- but they seem to have an abundance?

 

What is the problem with our spending ?

You do realise that we had to spend ? in 2015 we lost a 20 goal a season striker, and our best midfielder and best defender.
We HAD to spend.
In 2016 after relegation we lost 14 players.

We HAD to spend. Little choice. Even last summer we spent £130m approx in fixed fees, but we were down to 12 first team players (2 of whom were injured). So we had to spend to build up the squad.

As for what my fellow Villa fan says, we do have a proud history. We were Premier League for 27 years before relegation and won two trophies in that time. Villa Park ifself is a tribute to that heritage. There is nothing wrong in celebrating that. It is very difficult for a Villa fan to see their local rivals such as Wolves or Leicester develop past them after decades of being top dogs in the area.

11 years ago, we were in the quarter-finals of Europe, beat Ajax, Arsenal and finished comfortably in front of Man City and Spurs. Anyone older than mid 40s remembers major honours. For these people our transition to a yo-yo club is a very bitter pill to swallow and FFP to them is merely a way of keeping the top six at the top. 

Even I who accepts and understands whats happening to us feels outraged at the current predicament. We've fallen a long way.

Imagine if Bristol City fell into League Two while the Gas and Forest Green developed past you or even got into Premier League ? 

21 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 Hi @AnAstonVillafan

Cheating is an emotive and loaded term but there's a difference between blatant and subtle cheating. Exceeding limits knowingly during a 46 game season and then selling a stadium 10 days before Accounting Reporting Period ends has a feeling of unfinished business to me, at least from the perspective of other clubs and the EFL.

Not least post Parry, post Bury. The precedent set by reopening cases with respect to Derby and Sheffield Wednesday.

This fixed asset business is a loophole that EFL (I'm looking at Harvey) should have twigged and closes back in 2016 or 2017 at the latest.

Should've had a standardised amortisation method too or had in rules that they reserve the right to judge it all straight line and adjust for FFP purposes where necessary.

Riaz can speak for himself but any thoughts on the technical points? 

1) The method of payment for Villa Park. Loans Receivable and it appears to have slightly differing terms- NSWE Stadium Limited sheds a bit of light. 

2) Cash flow and payments. Nothing in the cash flow statement for Aston Villa Limited or NSWE UK. Not a deal breaker or clinching factor in itself but raises eyebrows. 

3) The valuation. We have no idea what method was chosen, indeed we don't for any of the stadium transactions. There clearly are multiple ways in which such an asset can be valued but the EFL have their own criteria.

Pride Park is a useful reference point- Derby's apparent independent valuation £81.1m, EFL's was £49-50m.  That's a significant and material divergence.

4) Exceptional Operating Income. Now the EFL as the I understand it are meant to be judging these applications for all clubs on a case by case basis for FFP purposes in real time. The year of the Projected Accounts perhaps though it be retrospective as well. It's HS2?

Well the issue I have is that Exceptional Operating Income appears x 2 for the same issue. Exceptional surely means significant hence a one off.

Clearly was recurring so I think there is a case to be made for exclusion of the second batch for FFP purposes if nothing else. 

5) Projected Accounts. Now this bit is very interesting. As fans we have no idea what goes in. I can't speak for other clubs but I do recall talk of a £60m loss from 22nd March 2019. Projected Accounts- and at this time time you were on a bit of a charge but in no way guaranteed promotion.

As such, promotion bonuses would surely not have been in there. Neither would the Xia payment in the event of promotion quite likely. However I reckon the HS2 may well have been and other issues would broadly have stacked up. 

This suggests to me and the sums would stack up, that your stadium sale was not in there as per March 1st submission of Projected Accounts.

Given the Xia and promotion payments would automatically have been I believe excluded anyway, this suggests that the stadium sale was decided after the submission of these Projected Accounts at start of March of the existing season, that all Championship clubs do.

A basic reading of the regs shows that 2 seasons of real accounts and one of Projected Accounts if exceeding limits is a basis for punishment or a Disciplinary Commission there and then!! 

Interested indeed in your thoughts.

You say unfinished business, but was selling our stadium illegal ?,
(I dont like it). Yes the EFL should have had a standardised
method, but thats not our fault.

Method of payment ? Seems acceptable to me. In the past
we've seen clubs convert loans to equity, write debts off
sponsor themselves, etc.

Cash flow ? I see no issue here, I know that recently NSWE put
money in for working capital.

What is your issue with the valuation exactly ? Too high ?
Too low ? I cant comment on the method, it may have differed.
How do you put a price on a football stadium ? Aston Villa owns
Villa Park, and some large plots of land around it. Some of that land
was sought after by developers. Some of it was sold off a few years back.
I've seen fans of other clubs try to compare the value of VP to
to other stadiums saying it was overvalued because of it's age, and some Villa fans say its
undervalued due to its historic significance. All conjecture.

Many dont consider its design, upgrades, surrounding area, transport links or size.

Consider also that less than a mile away there are major building projects
in progress to deliver the 2022 Commonweath Games. Could this affect the value
of Aston Villa's property assets ?

Other things you have mentioned is guess work. I knew about the Dr Xia's promotion payment from
when Dr Xia first took over. He has hidden a lot of details and
been very unclear about many things. But he was upfront in saying
that we would incur losses in an attempt to get promoted.
Many opposing fans feel resentment that we brought players in, but we lost a few too.

HS2 ? we invested heavily in Bodymoor 14 years ago and i feel
the compensation is fair. The way the clubs books are filed has differed
every time we've had a chage of ownership. They are very good at hiding
debts and wage bills.

On 24/06/2020 at 09:39, Riaz said:

Yeah okay, if you say so

I say so.

Unless you can present evidence that suggests otherwise.

Thats a serious accusation.

7 hours ago, Riaz said:

Reckon FFP will be done away with. All the clubs have suffered major losses the last few months and to try and legislate now, is going to be a minefield.

Cheats like Villa do prosper - cant see them being punished now.

We did not cheat

https://www.avfc.co.uk/News/2020/02/28/financial-results-villa-2019

On 16/02/2020 at 19:45, Mr Popodopolous said:

When I say replace, I mean replace perhaps numeriocally but not perhaps calibre or wage wise. Snodgrass goes out, in comes Bolasie and El Ghazi- granted the former left after half a season.

Out goes Grabban, in comes Tammy. Those are not terribly cheap.

I question the stadium sale owing to the Impairment in 2015/16 but I digress, the 2018/19 Accounts will be my new starting point.

Or if you get them in, you sell some key assets to help fund them in order to stick within the below.

It means that if a club are close to breaching FFP regs, you spend lower, you put more of an emphasis on youth and if you exceed these limits you- not just you tbh, any club, then they get dealt with accordingly.

Completely different and more complex case, but as we heard Friday evening. Man City banned for 2 years from European competition- feels pretty well deserved it must be said!

I am not in denial. FFP is a real concern to me. Our spend in the 2016-17 season was ...well reckless ?
But I would have to see evidence of wrongdoing before any action was taken against us.
And so far, I dont see any.

I would accept if we were charged and convicted and say the club would deserve any penalty.
I see only resentment that we brought good/high priced players. You have highlighted the the more high profile
arrivals at Aston Villa, but not mentioned where we sold international standard players and
had others taken off the wage bill. Transfers were a two-way activity. You pointed out Snodgrass
however we were only paying one third of his wages. Bolasie earns a kings ransom at Everton but i'm yet
to see proof that we were paying all of his retainer. I'm not convinced.

I know many opposing fans wanted to see us lose Grealish and as I said before it nearly did happen, but in
the Championship we should not be a selling club. Its a club that's going to aim to get back where it was. And we
did blood Green, Hepburn-Murphy & Davis our youth graduates but we cannot fill the team with them.
We were promoted relying our 3rd choice Goalkeeper.

I respect Bristol, hope you get promoted soon, but I'm here to stick up for my club. If I was satisfied that we had done
something wrong I'd be the first one to condemn.

On 14/02/2020 at 14:32, Mr Popodopolous said:

Cash flow and FFP are significantly different and though the debt was removed and the immediate issues cleared, I'm unsure how it impacts upon FFP. I don't know though, was there some special exemption for Aston Villa? The owners sorted the cashflow issue, the debt issue- the FFP problem is or was more complicated.

So. What. Cut your cloth accordingly- sign cheaper, use youth more. You don't 'have' to replace loanees as such.

Yes, I forgot about compensation for Bruce and compensation to Brentford for Smith- that can add to the losses?

Your club should be worried or at least have pause for thought on return...just seem something interesting about Sheffield Wednesday! Remember clubs demanding punishment for Birmingham surely helped to escalate that...I know they were in breach but it seemed that them signing Pedersen irked many rival clubs- and I wonder how it would've panned out in those early days, if they had stuck to the soft embargo...

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11703/11933677/sheffield-wednesday-clubs-demand-points-deduction-over-sale-of-hillsborough-to-dejphon-chansiri

Clubs set the rules!! Fairly sure some of Leeds points deductions were voted for by clubs! They could quite easily vote on something about Aston Villa, especially if everyone else gets punished or at least referred to an Independent Disciplinary Commission.

What does that mean ? Don't sign any decent players ? Just give up as a club ? These seems to be resistance any time the club tries to improve or remain competitive. Or simply get some bodies in.

We do have to replace players. Its essential.

55 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Am only going by the letter of the rules etc- basing it purely on overspend vs mitigating vs aggravating. 

IF rumoured overspend is true then that's 12?

Increasing losses was an aggravating factor in the Birmingham case that's 3.

Knock off one for complying with soft embargo?

Okay maybe 14 or 15 then.

I'm sure there were other factors pro and anti though...this is off the top of my head though.

There were rumours though that EFL wanted to enforce a points penalty back in May, or maybe the clubs so it's all deeply unclear right now.

All based on rumours. Rumoured overspend. Rumours of what the EFL wanted to do ?

If you want us so severely punished, you would need evidence. Not hearsay.

Everytime Aston Villa buy a player there seems to be opposition to it. 

(And I am a fan who feels we did overspend in 2015/16 and were extremely fortunate to win promotion last season to seemingly escape some of the consequences)

14 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I was thinking more of a points deduction this season for failing in the 3 years to May 2020...wouldn't that be great if Projected Accounts submitted in March, prior 2, problem with the ground valuation and then 10-20 points off- bang- down they do!

That Impairment of 2016 of nearly 50% on relegation- and we all know it's an accounting trick- but in terms of actual justification, set against standards, tests etc, well it's never been properly explained or justified IMO...

What would the points deduction actually be for ?

May 2020's books wont be published until March 2021.

You want us relegated but when ? This season or next ?

20 points is a little harsh.