AnAstonVillafan
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Posts posted by AnAstonVillafan
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20 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
If it is so legitimate why did that loophole get closed again and why was it closed under the old FFP regs and why did UEFA never open it in any case. Very unusual that it was permitted for anyone at all. I alsi have a specific puzzle in that the £56.7m is shown as Loans Receivable as far down the line as 2021-22 which is unique in accounting treatment for any side who have done this.
The rules now expressly adjust out inclusion of Fixed Asset Profits on disposal as they did until 2016- and even shares in companies that own Fixed Assets..see the Reading case for an illustrative example and they were not permitted to include that under their Business Plan btw. Why was the Fixed Asset loophole opened in 2016 is a big unanswered question of the P&S era. Why was it opened..should it have been opened.
Without it Aston Villa would have been in serious P&S trouble yet mind you so would a host of others. What is your take on the initial and in UEFA case constant closure, the opening of it in 2016 and it finally being closed again in 2021? UEFA had the right idea I thought in never opening it anyway.
A fairer way could have been Aston Villa being in the same queue as everyone else, plenty still haven't received compensation, should there have been privileged access to the HS2 Committee? That's a matter of debate.
"Where you should be"? While Aston Villa clearly have a strong history that is debatable. No club anywhere a divine right to be anywhere. None.
Poor decisions are seen weekly, even ironically with VAR as the officials are dreadful. I often see the Crystal Palace goal cited, I must watch. Certain degree of hypocrisy though the reaction in the Leeds game the year was a disgrace, how Hourihane avoided a retrospective ban was tricky. Team threw a huge tantrum in April 2019 when Leeds played to the whistle, I would not have let Aston Villa or anyone walk it in personally.
The "where we should be" is my personal view. No club has a divine right to be in the PL. True.
However when a club like Aston Villa gets relegated they arent easliy going to give up and fall apart. Some do, but others use every asset, advantage they can to get back to the top.
I read most of the posts in this thread as an outsider who wishes Bristol City well, and you do spend a lot of time complaining about FFP and parachute payments. But I see Huddersfield, Brentford, Luton, Brighton, Forest and Leeds all get promoted without parachute payments. While QPR, Watford, Huddersfield, Stoke, Middlesborough, Cardiff, Hull, Norwich and West Brom receive them but not come storming back, in fact a couple of those clubs are in serious trouble financially.The loophole is/was poor. I dont agree with it. Without my guess is we'd be in dire straits. What saved Aston Villa really however was the change of ownership. Without that we'd have been in adminstration. If Spurs had simply offered fair market value for Jack Grealish, they'd have got him for a quarter of what City would eventually pay for him and we'd still be in the EFL, with owners draining money out of the club like what's happening at West Brom.
The HS2 money was spent on a training facility. Not new players. Some people havent received compensation, some have. There are uni buildings and office blocks being flattened right now in Birmingham to make way for HS2. Some of them less than 20 years old.
Conor Hourihane had every right to be pissed with those chancers at Leeds. If he got a three game ban, what difference does this make to the grand objective ?
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On 03/10/2023 at 20:03, Mr Popodopolous said:
On one level there is some merit to your post, on another there seem to be some outrageous swings of fortune- see the failure to switch Hawkeye on in 2020.
The fact that the rules were changed to allow Fixed Asset Profits in 2016, without that Aston Villa woukd surely have broken P&S. £36m profit on Villa Park and the aforementioned HS2.
The speed of settlement seems out of keeping with the experience of many and you can bet a large majority wouldn't get to speak to an HS2 Committee.
A report said 10 pct, you say closer to a quarter? The workings would be interesting. I doubt HS2 are FOIable however.
By the way Aston Villa are far from the only one to utilise Fixed Asset loopholes- Birmingham, Derby, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday, Stoke and I think even Blackburn did the Training Ground but without it...hmm.
Those 3 for what they did got what they deserved but it's not good enough for some to be pursued but not everyone. I still have a significant problem with Stoke. Hope Everton get a nice deduction too.
You must get of your head the idea that we badly broke the rules. We didn't. We did use a questionable (dodgy) loophole. But nothing more than that. The situation we are in today has nothing to do with that. We have differerent owners to when we overspent in (my opinion) in 2017.
We deserved promotion. And the club is being rebuilt. Personally I think its just being returned to where we should have been and maybe three seasons in the EFL were needed to clear out the deadwood, hangers on, poor owners and management.
As for the Hawkeye business, yes we got lucky with that. But in the very same season we had a legitimate goal outrageously disallowed vs Palace. An incorrect VAR decision when leading Arsenal in the last ten minutes, and a fraudulent penalty given to Man Utd at home when Fernandes fouled our player. No one ever talks about that. Just the Hawkeye decision. So, in my mind it evens out. A season is played over 38 games. Not one.At the moment we are showing some ambition and trying to mix it at the top level without sovereign weath fund investment. Yes we have benefitted from the HS2 compensation but I'm not sure what you think a fairer way would be considering its a piece of farmland in the Warwickshire countryside owned by the club for nearly 50 years. It was £14.5m from the Government with the work costing £14m. The youth teams and womens teams have had major benefit from the new digs.
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19 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
Says many are yet to receive compensation and I assume it will have been for much lower amounts.
Aston Villa though, paid several years ago and got to testify to HS2 committee etc. Disgusting.
Let it go Mr Popodopolous.
Let it go.
We did nothing wrong.
Reading, Wednesday and Derby have all been destroyed. What more do you want ? HS2 took nealy a quarter of our traning ground. The recompense is fair.
Onwards and Upwards for us. New Stand. European football. Tangible progression.
Good time to be a Villa fan right now. -
Worth also noting that West Ham and Man City have stadiums built at taxpayer expense which need to be filled for political and legacy purposes.
Hence the artificially low ST prices available.
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My ticket has gone from £426 to £531 this term.
Approx. 3,000 ST holders from last season have decided not to renew. However there are more than 25,000 people on the waiting list.
I suppose that demand gives them an incentive to hike up the fees.
It's a shame as we used to used one of the best priced in the Prem.-
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12 hours ago, Monkeh said:
Qpr didn't get away with it, they were heavly fined and suffered from transfer embargo,
In fact it's only thr last 18 months that they finally recovered,
Villa will face the music if they get relegated
The three year EFL investigation over the league’s Profitability & Sustainability Rules concluded with Villa complying with all the regulations while in England’s second division. The Premier League also reviewed and confirmed compliance in accordance with its own policies and procedures.
FFP is too complicated for clever people not to work around, and too crude to actually protect clubs, except in extreme situations.
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5 hours ago, luke_bristol said:
So did Derby fans. They couldn’t hide forever.
We didn't do anything wrong. As per the Premier League and the EFL. You can wish misfortune upon us, as many of you do with Derby.
But you'd be wasting your energy.-
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On 07/11/2021 at 21:50, luke_bristol said:
Don’t Villa have a few questions to answer ref FFP if they drop back into the EFL?
No questions to answer.
We've moved on.
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On 08/11/2021 at 08:21, Northern Red said:
No.
We don't
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10 minutes ago, chinapig said:
Essentially true imo. The problem was clubs being enable to comply with P&S by "selling" their stadium thanks to a loophole. I suspect they were positively encouraged to do so by a former head of the EFL.
The gamble paid off in Villa's case but in Derby's case could yet be a factor in their being liquidated.
I'm well aware that their situation could easily have been us had we not attracted the owners we have now.
It was a gamble and not in the spirit of the regulations I'll admit. But it saved us.
Unless the gap between the top two divisions is narrowed somehow, these issues will keep coming up. And more clubs will go to the wall.
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1 hour ago, REDOXO said:
They will be relegated one day! Just like QPR
Don't judge a whole a club or its fanbase by a couple of people on a forum.
I'll remind you once again that Aston Villa did nothing wrong. As declared after two separate investigations. The club is going from strength to strength right now, on and off the field. Long may that continue.
I did say on here long ago that Derby will get what's coming to them. But I can take no pleasure from their current demise.-
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3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
Amusing Freudian slip by Maguire, although could have as @Davefevs says done it on purpose.
Notice both returned to the Board in recent days- may as well ask @AnotherDerbyFan and @AnAstonVillafan what they think about this vote to ban Stadium Sale Profits from P&S outcomes? You and a few others would have been screwed had the EFL not botched it in 2016 when transferring the old Rules across- either that or Harvey was relaxed about such a loophole.
Possible the other loophole was in terms of Sponsorship @PHILINFRANCE .
I don't like what we did, because it papers over cracks and hides a problem or a lack of funds.
I am happy its being banned as P&S needs to be made less complex.
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30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
On a general note, to @AnAstonVillafan
What I would say is that, the EFL at that time are somewhat to blame for the current controversies. IMO they should not have given relatively cushy terms to clubs either in or heading for breach, if agreed the terms should have been more stringent not just with the existing season but with the Future Financial Information in mind- they are entitled to do this through Projections for T+1 and T+2. If done correctly, this system could work like clockwork.
It is either that the EFL agreed but with too lenient terms or the clubs welched on or partially welched on any agreements that they may have had.
I've an open mind but we can't rule out the last bit IMO.
Looking at what the EFL are entitled to do though, as set against reading the Written Reasons, I cannot help but think that they were content to scramble over the line into passes or probable passes for either the season just gone or the season upcoming and disregarding or not taking sufficient account of the T+1 and T+2 side of the equation.
I'm sure Derby will get whats coming to them. The club is in a downward spiral anyhow with one owner who does not want to be there and no one coming to the rescue. The EFL will get them sooner or later, if they are proven to be guilty.
And yes The EFL are mostly to blame. The regs have loopholes and they seem slow to react. I believe currently they are more geared towards saving clubs rather than compliance.-
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14 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
Wouldn't know it reading a) Twitter and b) Their forum- not the hard season bit but deduction. Agree with your post btw, though seen it suggested that (don't laugh) to penalise them with points for past periods newly failed under the Straight Line method if it reaches that point, would be immoral! Some would say that their approach since 2018 has been, so what goes around comes around!!
Intriguingly- that's one word for it as it's certainly a long shot- a few of their fans even suggested Adam Armstrong sometime in May on their Transfer window thread...where to begin with that idea!?
Hope MSD show them no clemency either if required- Debt is debt after all.
Would quite like some clubs to raise objections- about Derby and Pearce- at the League AGM. Surprised he's still one of the Elected Reps tbh- brings the League into disrepute!
If Mark Ashton could do one good thing on the way out- could he be theoretically representing us there- maybe it should be to put up some kind of anti Stephen Pearce motion. Would it be too far a stretch to hope he might propose expulsion/suspension for Derby from the League, or at least a refusal to allocate them any fixtures for 2021/22 under current conditions? I'd definitely applaud him if he proposed something to fit their crimes!
They're more objectionable as a club than Wednesday IMO. Aston Villa are more loathsome still.
Let it go, Popodopolous.
Let it go. -
23 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm no great fan of Sportswashing either- Man City- UAE, PSG- Qatar- nearly Newcastle with the Saudis, could argue some others too.
You're right. Even Man City didn't kick on that quickly- may have been better in first few years with Sven over Hughes I reckon for that phase of development but that's football talk, has no place on a finance thread.
Yeah you're right big variety. Birmingham and Aston Villa neither were ideal let's say...West Brom's seems so so, neither disastrous or anything amazing, Fosun at Wolves however seem very smart, very strategic.
Agreed- possibly only big positive he did there was selling, having to sell to to UAE!
It's just a thought of frustration at Derby wriggling out of issues with questionable sponsorships- like Man City, when they clearly have FFP issues.
I don't believe Derby will wriggle out of any issues. They are a mess at the moment and it will take time to sort. Morris was a geniune fan of the club. Like Lansdown and Gibson are of their clubs.
West Brom used to be one of the best run clubs in the country. Ruled by Jeremy Peace, who was born in the area, a fan and ruled with a rod of iron. He always got maximum value in every deal. The current Chinese owner seeks to lead in the same way. It was managerial problems which caused their relegation.
When Doug Eliis was Villa's major shareholder the club was debt free, and prudent. The fans hated this. We always wanted more and more money spent on new players. But we never apprieciated what we had with him. Its shame that it always seems to be foreign billonaires nessessary to push a club forward in these times.I used to deliver newspapers to Ellis's house as a teenager. 25 minutes drive from the stadium.
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20 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
I'd like to say- the moral high ground, Sportswashing by Despots bad- but mainly it's because I wish ill on that club!
There's a few clubs that aren't even traditional local rivals of us that I have a serious dislike of these days...
I will finally take a look at the charges over the assets and bits of the club- @Davefevs @myol'man may also find this interesting...seems odd that you'd buy a club whereby charges are over all the main assets from Dell, Gabay- at least as per CH. @Hxj might also- seems the EFL have given the green light anyway, there's no real reason AFAIK to stop it.
FFP equity limits, EFL need to scrutinise like a hawk any transactions between UAE and Derby too. I don't care about Covid, I don't even care about Derby's wellbeing as a club. The more hardship the better in fact.
At least you're honest.
There is no guarantee that new foreign owners, automatically mean that the club fortunes instantly improve.
My club, Villa had a Chinese owner once. As do our rivals Birmingham. Neither of us have good things to say about them.
Wolves on the other hand may take a different view.
Man City had a Thai owner. They hated him. Leicester City have Thai owners. The fans sing his name.-
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7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
Bit topical, now the League Arbitration Panel have basically halved the penalty for Sheffield Wednesday- yet these Independent panel are unpredictable, the Football League are due to appeal Derby's amortisation sometime this Autumn, after Derby were found innocent of each! Maybe failings in the case by the Football League played a role?
As it stands, nothing perhaps- rule change would be needed for a start, but we'd hope the Football League would be on the case as of the first taking charges out against the ground occurred- I'd quite like them to block the takeover for a start if at all possible.
Why do you want the EFL to block the takeover ?
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13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
Was looking around about vague FFP related stuff and found this- might be interested @AnAstonVillafan
Now that £93m will of course be inclusive of promotion bonuses so the fall and boost to P&S- because remember Promotion Bonuses seemingly excluded from P&S calculations- will be a bit overstated but that is notable, reducing wage bill by even say £10-15m on promotion!
I might also add, though the TV money goes up of course from Parachute Payments to PL, so does the amortisation, the HS2 revenue surely won't be replicated- if it is MPs need to be asking q's IMO as it's public money, are HS2 covered by FOI, another angle- and the rolling up of two years into one is both a good thing and a bad thing- it means that it adversely impacts some clubs but helps others. I'm not even sure the 2nd tranche should be included as it was classed as "Exceptional Operating Income" but that's another debate! Still by my very rough maths, Aston Villa could've lost £44m in the PL assuming non included costs remained the same this was in 2019/20 but it's £62m over 3 seasons in FFP terms and £88m in accounting IF the costs that are allowable remain the same.
Those wage figures are all over place. Gregg Evans needs to go back to writing for the Birmingham Evening Mail. If you add up the estimated players wages, you get nowhere near £93m or £65m.
Note also that John Terry gets an approx. £75,000 a week retainer so there is the possiblity that staff wages are included in his figures.We've been prudent on wages since our return to the Premier League but it's now acknowledged that to compete we are going to need an uplift in quality which means paying players more money. Most difficult aspect is removal of deadwood in the squad.
Why should MPs be asking question about HS2 compensation? In my mind it is fair and correct.
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On 01/09/2020 at 15:22, Mr Popodopolous said:
I'd go as far as to say that Morris and some of their fans are almost Trumpian. Trumpian cherrypicking is what SOME of their fans and hierarchy are.
I don't mean in worldview or politics etc- no idea on that and nor is it relevant for this thread- more like style. Tone.
What should their tone be ?
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28 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
Might also add augurs well- as and when Aston Villa return I'd have thought all clubs would be united as one there, pretty much in terms of demands for an investigation/punishment?
Sometimes Aston Villa fans ask me on Twitter why I am so critical. Well it appears the Matt Lawton story about the big 3 Championship clubs who may have been in breach was broadly correct.
It stated Aston Villa losses for the season may have been as high as £60m.
Now consider:
Think was £68-69m- BUT minus £30m for Lerner promotion bonus-£15-16m for promotion costs inclusive of the bonuses- that's a nice easy £23m.
I already have factored in the HS2 would've been in there but costs of promotion would not have been and neither would Xia bonus- bith were contingent on promotion.
Profit on Villa Park- that article pretty much nailed on! £60m or close to- that's a full 12 point overspend over the 3 years and 3 for a deliberate breach as per Birmingham- may get one back due to terrible opwner and one back for not disregarding soft embargo but Matt Lawton- always said he's good.
This surely means that the stadium sale and leaseback must have been arranged/inserted AFTER the projected accounts. Given it was paid for in the form of Loans Receivable, wonder what the hell happened with the EFL analysis! Even a 5-6 points in the season in March/April would have knocked them out of playoff contention.
I get the feeling you would have enjoyed that.
You really do have to let this go. -
6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
Those figures for all those clubs sound really low. Brighton £36m wage bill, Bournemouth £40m and Watford £45m?? Happy to look further but where are those from. Norwich higher wage bill, really?
Well the leverage point was a certain degree of anger but worth noting it's been done before.
Well I'm not in atm but if I was I'd do a bit of a deeper dive.
Parachute Payments as happens in Year 3 down. Was it by between £15-20m?
Loss limit down by £22m. It's £35m in PL of course and £13m at this level- another problem I have with the system but that's another debate.
Nonetheless you're talking of a crunch of between £35-45m when combining the fall in loss limit with the fall in parachute payments.
So for a wage bill AND amortisation to increase during that season is stunning really. Gobsmacked somewhat.
In fairness some will have included the Bruce severance pay and the Smith compensation to Brentford.
I'm also disregarding the promotion bonuses. Despite and net of these the wage bill rose in a context with a squeeze containing falling parachute and loss limits.
Swiss Ramble succinctly summarises some key points.
From his March review of the accounts, as we can see £10m rise in wages net of promotion bonuses (which are rightly excluded) and £2m rise of amortisation in a season of falling income. Good grief!
The Swiss Ramble must use an alternative method of working these figures out.
I got my figures from here and they were repeated in the The Mirror
https://www.sportekz.com/football/premier-league-clubs-wage-bills/
Consider also that Villa's wage bill fell from £90m to £73m before relegation. And that as I told you before Aston Villa usually try to hide
the exact player wage total by including it in total staff costs. Something I've noticed us doing for about ten years.
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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
Worth noting that Parry and Harvey have a different approach. To say the least- a lot would have depended on how these EFL cases v Derby and Sheffield Wednesday go. Precedent set and all that!
Maybe that initial (even if flawed) authorisation trumps all regardless. However these were seemingly approved or not objected to by Harvey but Parry with his credentials has a different view- we'll see!
I don't know what the regs say with respect to such issues tbh, certainly never seen anything with respect to it. It's a fair point that.
I suppose my problem is that in a sense some expenditure did continue, the way the plan seemed to go was to escape the issue (to an extent in any case) via promotion as opposed to making more cutbacks during the season itself. The ground sale and HS2 may well have been looked at in some depth.
It was notable that despite Parachute Payments dropping as they did, as they always do in Year 3, both wages and despite the use of loans so shockingly did amortisation.
Even if not hitting the exact figures, pushing on with further expansion as parachute payments fall and then settling it with a stadium sale and leaseback is very different in intent to showing some austerity.
You had rather a lot out of contract going into summer 2019 but at the same time was final season of parachute payments so the two may negate.
Further discussions on this should be on the FFP thread, agreed.
I just wanted to follow this on from the Premier League last day thread.
I'm not sure what you expected us as a club to do here. We did sell players. We also released Samba, Terry and Agbonlahor. Took a big fee for Jordan Amavi among others. At the same time John McGinn arrived for £2.5m
You said on another thread that you hope my club leverages itself big with fees and wages and comes down next year, but we only spent what we earned in TV income last summer and we currently have the 3rd lowest wage bill in the top flight at £23.8m.In comparison Brighton's – £36m, Bournemouth's is £40m, and Watford's £45m.
Most of our new players except Heaton, are young and can be sold to balance accounts should the worst happen.
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4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:
Covid should see a relaxation but to me with the exception of losses brought about by the pandemic, it still should be judged as usual.
Accounting losses - Covid Adjustments - Allowable costs=New FFP. Something like that.
I don't know. A club loses £20m this season. Normally it'd be Accounting losses (£20m) - Allowable costs (£5m?)=FFP.
Wirh Covid, said club loses a further £6m due to refunds etc.
£26m-£6m-£5m=New FFP.
Seems the fairest formula to me!
I get all that about the present and the future moving forward, but historic issues to be reopened?
If (it's a big if) the EFL win their cases vs Sheffield Wednesday and latterly Derby, this surely opens the door to if appropriate, charges or a reinvestigation of Reading and if/whenever you return, Aston Villa?
My key argument is that there are grounds for debate/dispute over the FFP 3 years to May 2019. Precedent suggests to me that reinvestigation of Reading and yourselves if the EFL wins should be possible.
They can't let historic issues or grey areas slide due to Covid I believe.
I'm fairly sure there will be no reopening of old cases. Otherwise you'd have to get Bournemouth looked at again.
And I just can't see why, especially as the EFL and Aston Villa have already said there was compliance. And you seem admant there was wrongdoing.
You feel like a rigorous second look should happen. Does anyone else feel this way ?
Was £56.7m too high or too low ? Do you think we made too much profit from the sale ? How much should that be ? I'll be staggered if that case was ever reopened if i'm honest.I'm very certain that we would never be subject to a points deduction or any other sanction. I'm racking my brains to think of what we could be collared for at the moment.
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20 hours ago, Davefevs said:
I don’t think they’ll be in trouble because they have saleable assets.
Agree, but your issue will be replacing them with the quality required. I don’t see Villa assembling a squad of the same quality as last season (Abraham, Mings, etc). Can imagine John Terry might go too. We will then see how good Dean Smith is, and whether he can handle “names”. I’m only speculating, but I can imagine Terry bring pretty key in that player to staff dynamic.
Having said that, none of us know how covid will impact things. You probably won’t get top dollar, but you don’t have to pay it out either.
The pressure will be on, as you’ll only get 2 years worth of PPs.
Interesting times ahead though.
I do hope you get relegated though....sorry!
I don't believe FFP will be as much as a concern in the near future as it was in the past, due to Covid and the fact that our leadership is much more competent. The squad should be of good Championship standard, but a lot depends on what we can keep hold of.
If we make say, £60m net on outgoing transfers i'd expect half of that figure to be available for new transfers. We could find ourselves without an experienced striker on the first team. That would not go unchecked. Personally I'm happy to return to the lower league as long as we have an astute plan for promotion - this would involve improvement on the training pitch as well as action in the transfer market. Any team that gets relegated from the Championship will have get at least £110m TV revenue before any parachute money arrives (note that we have spent ours already)
I actually hope that Bristol City get the right manager in and sooner rather than later go up. I have nothing but good wishes for your club. I do find the antagonism towards Aston Villa slightly amusing.-
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Everton FFP- yes
in Football Chat
Posted
Let it go.
Sheffield Wednesday, Derby and Reading are finished. Can't you be happy with that ?
I, like Ty Bracey am very happy that WE DID NOT BREAK ANY RULES. It is nice that we are not involved in any nasty stuff and we are seeing the benefit of that right now.
You can query this, but the EPL and EFL were satisfied with the sale and leaseback. (Which even I think is dodgy).