Mr Popodopolous

Had forgotten a bit about the T20. Still in our hands though and most of the sides in this League are not wildly consistent- plus Northants and Durham still have to play each other. The fact that anyone down to 9th can still theoretically go up means that I foresee a lot of tight games- Northants final home game of the season!

Notice that Harmer- Essex spinner- got 6/143 in Warwickshire 1st Innings. Patel 6/73 in their innings- predicting a draw but it could be a very interesting final couple of sessions or so.

We're looking like losing here to Sussex- would need to get them 72ao on a sunny day- ain't happening! Importantly we still remain 3rd, just but it is really tight! Northants need another 45 too with 8 wickets left. Could very easily read this in the scramble for 2nd and 3rd though by close of play today! Northants 161 Gloucestershire 156 Durham 147 Sussex 145 Only Leicestershire will be mathematically out of it though, which is mental!! Lancashire have 204 points from 12, up and title won I reckon. OTOH if we somehow pull of a combination of Murali the Oval 1998, Broad spell 2009 v Australia at the Oval and win- won't happen but if we did- we would be virtually up!

Mel Morris on talkSport just starting now. These are summaries of the substance, not direct quotes. States: They started looking at transaction some 18 months back. A denial it is corrupt. Says that was on current market value, not projected after work and events. Reiterates events during the season could be a huge money-spinner. Makes reference to the roof and puts his business case. Jim White asks a straight question- without the stadium would you have been in breach of FFP? Mel Morris- no straight answer, talks forward planning, player transfers etc- Jim White states he uses a loophole. Mel Morris states nothing done wrong- is allowable. Simon Jordan: Thinks that if it was any other club doing it, he would call it sabre rattling. Isn't so sure owing to Gibson's track record. Thinks Middlesbrough's actions aimed more at EFL than Derby perse. Considers FFP to be flawed. Thinks Morris is being cute, different to player transaction and believes it will stand up, the valuation that is as it was independent. Doesn't necessarily fit with the ideals of FFP. Mel Morris: Wouldn't support the rule change as it would be basically pulling the drawbridge up. Points out on level playing field argument that FFP never intended to create this. Biggest challenge especially at our level the inflation in fees and wages. Premier League the main driver. Also of equal importance, the parachute clubs. Excess funds of clubs that yo-yo, gives them an advantage- £30m, study shows this. Pushes non parachute clubs into a need to react- a financial arms race basically? Jim White: Only clubs who don't support Middlesbrough clubs are those who want to do that too. Mel Morris: Great complications- tax etc etc. HMRC- "benefit in kind", other issues, major tax bill if not. Would do it again, as it is within the rules. If you don't like the rules then change them! Talking about Bolton- had they been bankrupted and results expunged, biggest beneficiary would've been Derby. Mentions Shaun Harvey- "Texted him on the morning they played Bolton, and said much disagreement- but applauds him as you have to keep Bolton and all the other clubs alive". No guidance, pushback- took the valuation at face value. Praises Steve Gibson despite this dispute.

Agreed. For the record, the reason I have a greater issue with Aston Villa is because they sold nobody of note and actually went again last season- then sold their stadium at the last despite £90m of parachute payments or thereabouts in the 3 seasons! Arrogance of their fan base too, the entitlement. Then Sheffield Wednesday- their deficit was higher than I anticipated and what makes it worse is the shenanigans over their transaction- that makes very interesting reading tbh. Worth looking in depth at when the accounts were due originally, when they were due on the revised date, when the ground was listed on the Land Registry as having been sold, when the company that purchased it was setup, let alone the valuation in 2014 at depreciated replacement cost by valuers, vs the price it sold for- not even talking net book value here, yes there was a revaluation reserve of around £6.5m but there's a huge difference even factoring that in and small additions. Yeah also Sheffield Wednesday only finally sold Joao in August- they sold nobody of note, for good money between say 2015/16 and 2018/19. Oh yes when they appeared at CH vs when they were due 1st and revised time, when the accounts were signed...sure there is more I've missed!! IMO there's a lot more than merely the valuation that at least merits an in depth look.

I make Aston Villa and Sheffield Wednesday worse tbh. I've done a lot of looking into their accounts for a start- of all 3 in fact, in recent times. Reading may have breached it by £500k- that'd be a breach of £500,000 over the 3 years as opposed to one year or per year- to June 30th 2018 if not for the ground sale according to one calculation I saw online, but nobody really seems to have passionate and strong feelings about them in the wider football world- good and bad thing.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/middlesbrough-to-sue-english-football-league-in-row-over-derby-county-stadium-purchase-w2m38pj6h?shareToken=26f3e4188931848763d7dbf90ea8eeec Hope this link works. This penultimate paragraph at the bottom is very interesting- the bit in bold especially: In other words, if Derby are found to have significantly overvalued- and tbh this is touched upon somewhat in the FFP thread. If they are though then the EFL as an organisation could yet sue Derby in response to Middlesbrough suing them. Presumably Reading and Sheffield Wednesday too- though tbh claims against Sheffield Wednesday and especially Reading may well be a lot lower. Indemnity of the losses the EFL would occur in the event Middlesbrough's action has some success and if eg Pride Park significantly overvalued plays a role. Could other PL clubs sue Aston Villa if Villa Park found to be significantly overvalued? Who knows! Maybe the PL themselves or the EFL themselves might! Maybe EFL clubs who have lost out threaten legal action vs the PL and the PL as an organisation in turn sue Aston Villa in the event of a breach?

Other key reason I came on tonight was saw this on Twitter. It'll be in the Times so I'll make sure I type it tomorrow, the continued on Page 67, if anything significant. I believe them to have jumped the gun at this time. It's a drastic step at any time though! Certainly not an advisable move on their part and definitely not at this time IMO. If it ever is.

Fair- tbh you probably have known about football finance etc longer than me, only the last couple of years I've really started to look in depth! Makes 2 of us, mortgaged or sold- could there have been a charge on it, perhaps they sold part of it in exchange for cash and rent but less than 50% so it still stayed in the clubs hands? Ha I will thanks- sounds interesting to say the least. Looked again at the accounts earlier and my revised interpretation is that- and it's only an interpretation, maybe completely wrong: Valuation at cost at that time- £20.9m whatever it was, the revaluation took it to £34m or so- anyway the two figures were £20. something million and £34. something million and added together it took it to £55m in 2007 I believe. Still confuses me though the fact there was a revaluation reserve of £39m in addition- was the true value therefore in 2007 £94-95m? Not entirely sure. Would it the £20.9m +£34.1m (for simplicity sake let's round it to that) to take it to £55m exclusive of the £39m whatever the exact figure there was in the Revaluation Reserve or would the Revaluiation Reserve in 2007/08 accounts form part of it? That Note 26 in the 2015/16 Sevco 5112 I also find interesting, but maybe it isn't- seems at that time Fair Value added was £0, therefore the Fair Value to the Group was £55.6m- but maybe once RR added, depreciation factored in and work £81.1m is a lot more credible than it sounds.

Looking pretty mixed for us. We are noe 176/6 which is 6 ahead- not good. Middlesex v Durham- would rather Middlesex had won it as they're that bit further back but Durham won. Middlesex now realistically out of it. In good news, Worcestershire beat Glamorgan- we're still 2nd but Northants could well overtake us- it's ridiculously tight though, even so late into the season!! 1 Lancs 11 6 0 5 0 28 32 181 2 Gloucs 11 4 2 5 0 33 30 152 3 Durham 12 5 4 3 0 19 33 147 4 Northants 11 3 2 6 0 30 30 138 5 Glamorgan 12 3 3 6 0 30 29 136 6 Sussex 11 3 4 4 0 25 29 122 7 Middlesex 12 3 4 5 0 19 28 120 8 Worcestershire 12 3 6 3 0 19 32 114 9 Derbyshire 11 3 5 3 0 19 30 112 10 Leicestershire 11 1 4 6 0 19 24 89

We've got our 3 bowling bonus points. Sussex made 370 though, a deficit of 170- a draw will be okay given other scores elsewhere. Don't see us winning given the size of deficit etc.

Hmm, looking mixed for us. Sussex 7 down- which is good and gives us a realistic chance of getting those 3 bowling bonus points- we are 113 behind at the close though. We've pulled off some fantastic late wins recently though, or from unlikely positions so it isn't over yet.

Looking at the top flight, is this the week it changes decisively for the better for you? Putting on 114 for the last 4 wickets is a big morale boost- a strong one and it possibly showed in getting Yorkshire out so quickly. Worries about the pitch and inspections etc should be assuaged given you are scoring well and still have 5 wickets left. Essex have a finals day too- could work both ways but another day of cricket at this stage of season while you'll be resting up- advantage?

221/5- we may yet keep Sussex to a modest deficit and get those 3 bowling points. 2 minimum. No side in the chasing pack has yet in this round of games put down a big marker that says "We're here!"

https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/847502/somerset-will-not-be-charged-with-breach-of-ecb-pitch-regulations Dunno what to make of that- I notice it happened in successive seasons? Fraser was ranting the season before IIRC. Still that was some suitable karma for Middlesex given how you were robbed of Championship by a highly creative declaration.

Wicket at last! Hopefully conditions will be conducive to some quick wickets...the bad news for us is our lack of a good position in the game so far, the good news is the chasing pack so far, a lot of them are struggling! Middlexex and Durham both 140 odd ao so no batting bonus points there! Glamorgan 84/5, it's not over yet...

To update on this one, if I haven't already covered it in another part of this thread. Transaction was listed at Land Registry as having gone through on June 28th 2019. Puzzles me given when the accounts were due, dated, signed, the accounting period even when extended- let alone £60m on a ground valued at £22.25m in 2014 and with a £6.4m revaluation reserve in the 2016/17 accounts. Yeah and the company who purchased it was Sheffield 3 Limited, listed as having been incorporated on 21st June 2019. Owned initially by Sheffield 4 Limited but that in turn was dissolved on 18th July 2019, having been incorporated at CH on 20th June 2019.

Aaah, my fault- probably. Could well be getting mortgage/remortgage/sale and leaseback mixed up- did a bit of historical research and saw something about ABC Corporation, and assumed it was out of club ownership for that period? Or was it that ABC took over the club and ground alike. Will look again at the accounts for the early to late 2000's. https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/david-conn-pride-park-mortgaged-to-panamanian-company-77225.html Will look further back in the accounts, to the late 1990s in due course.

200 ao. That bonus point could be crucial in the final reckoning- hope the wicket has a certain amount in it, we were 97/2 not long after lunch so that to 188/9 was a bit of a fall!

The one curiosity regarding the Revaluation Reserve though. This Revaluation Reserve at the time Pride Park was purchased back in 2007/08 time, with the subsequent revaluation was £39,554,000. Yet on getting the ground back and revaluing it, there was an upward revaluation listed in the accounts for that season of £34,147,000- listed as a Revaluation Readjustment. Revaluation on 11th December 2007 by King Sturge LLP to £55,000,000. In terms of the Depreciation, there was the re-purchase of Pride Park- cost or valuation of £27,264,000 on 1st July 2007. So then, was the revaluation reserve separate to, part of or in addition to that upward revaluation- ie how much of it, if any, was already accounted for in terms of the Revaluation Adjustment? Or is it that regardless of that upward adjustment, you readd the RR in any case? Double entry maybe? Revaluation Surplus- similar but different to a Revaluation Reserve?

A part that was unclear in terms of that "Fair Value to the Group", was whether that was inclusive or exclusive of Revaluation Reverse and potential changes to Valuation through the Fair Value adjustments. If it's a case of adding that Revaluation Reserve to the Fair Value to the group of £55.601m minus the depreciation, non stadia based assets etc then it could well be spot on, the £81.1m. If it's included within though...then I think £50-55m bracket, £60m at a push. That Revaluation Reserve for the record was £30,295,929 in the 2016/17 accounts.

Taken an even deeper look at the accounts for Sheffield Wednesday. Revalued at DRC in 2014, £22.25m. Revaluiation Reserve is around £6-6.5m. Additions and Depreciation? I estimate based on all that, Hillsborough to be in the bracket of £25-30m. Really struggling to see how they came to £60m! With regards to Derby, £81.1m may well be more realistic than I thought given the Revaluation Reserve- but then again the below muddies the waters a bit in that respect: I note that in 2015/16 when acquired and possibly when the accounts were written, ie by end of financial year, the: Vendor's Book Value- £55,601,000. Fair Value Adjustment- £0. Fair Value to the Group- £55,601,000. Note 26, Sevco 5112 Limited accounts. I take Tangible Fixed Assets to be Pride Park- unsure how the Training Ground would be accounted for in these? Actually thinking about it, some of it isn't Pride Park! OTOH, maybe that £81.1m as of 2018 was the revaluation reserve added to the depreciated fair value to the group by this stage, not fully sure I think so but it is possible. No way was Hillsborough £60m though!!

Afghanistan win their 2nd Test overall and their 1st vs a longer Test playing nation,. In Chittagong, v Bangladesh- quite heavy rain delays but they got over the line. Actually Bangladesh's home record in recent times has been alright, so that result is fairly notable, one off Test. Rashid Khan took 6 in the 4th Innings I believe. I maintain, in subcontinental conditions vs most sides they should be a handful! They play West Indies in India late November- that is a bit of a step up but should be interesting.

Certainly agree on Infrastructure expenditure- it should be excluded, ie not count towards FFP. Build up the club, improve it for the fans, in due course extract further revenue streams from it- clearly right to class it as "good" investment. The thing is, at least on the fees front it is interesting to note that the summer expenditure in the Championship was roughly the same as summer 2018 and less than some prior ones- FFP could at this level at least be dampening down things a bit, lower net spend too ie more brought in when it comes to sales, clubs loaning with obligation to buy etc- presumably banking on promotion in some if not all cases! Believe if tightened and tweaked a bit more and of course enforced to the letter it could have a further deflationary effect in time on the Championship transfer market. High ticket prices are an issue, but just seems to be the English game these days unfortunately. Not ideal for the fans though of course! Agreed! EFL have a number of shortcomings in this regard- I remember Birmingham around this time when that situation started to develop, there were all manner of leaks, often to the Times, but also to the Telegraph and Daily Mail. It was either the EFL leaking to selected outlets, off the record or it was individuals within perhaps who were unhappy with it or who wanted to make an example of Birmingham? Of course they deserved the sanctions and the inquiry etc, but the EFL, the way info got out, intentionally or otherwise, was less than impressive! That process is not good enough though at least it kept fans in the loop in snippets- overall though feels like it needs significant improvement. That's a very good point. I remember at first jumping on that particular bandwagon a bit for a while, fuming I was- but the way the rules were changed was seemingly quite quietly done? Not very well publicised in any case! You're right though, they should have made that distinction quite clear from the start- the bit about the rules permitting it but question marks over the valuations- Gibson is usually pretty sensible so if it was a change voted on by all? Then again, dunno when that vote took place or if it was EFL board making the decision and clubs just learning of it- unanswered questions there, that again falls on the EFL somewhat! A massive mess indeed it is- a lot of loose ends to tie up. I do believe there is an inquiry of some description, I doubt that would be incorrectly reported but you never know! Many of the issues you refer to ie owners, we'll have to see. EFL should if the clubs are cleared make a definitive statement I certainly agree! By the same token, if there is a significant discrepancy found they should make this public (subject to commercial confidentiality) too and publicise next steps- subject to if for example the clubs were found to be in the wrong, not prejudicing an EFL independent Disciplinary Commission. In terms of valuations, Reading's seems alright I guess but you posted something I believe- will read this properly tomorrow, was it about Reading? Looked pretty comprehensive! Sheffield Wednesday's is very curious, given that in 2014 there was an independent valuation at DRC of £22.25m! Looking at their accounts since there seems to be nothing that would justify £60m! Let alone the fact the transaction was dated June 2019, yet it appeared in 2017/18 accounts- accounts which were meant to be at CH on February 28th 2019, made up to May 31st 2019, extended by 2 months so that'd be April 30th 2019 from July 31st 2018 respectively, yet these accounts were not dated until 21st June 2019, and further to this the transaction itself went through on 28th June 2019. Oh and Chansiri said 5-6 months before at a Fans Forum that no promotion meant a failure by 8 figures, plus it was Sheffield 3 Limited who purchased the property, yet this company was not incorporated until 21st June 2019. I have serious, serious problems with their one! Aston Villa and yourselves- independently valued yes, but an impairment cost, also maybe labelled as a writedown of £44.8m in 2015/16 for Villa Park- unless they wrote it back up in 2018/19, I struggle to see how that fits so well. Derby? Can't make up my mind! I know there was investment on the stadium, but there also would have been depreciation- plus how much of that investment was current, how much was ongoing and how much was planned? Could make a difference.. Thanks, that clears up Spygate then! Bit of a media circus that in general- saw the initial tweet by DCFC Response police and that seemed unprofessional on their part, when I dug it out earlier. Was a major story too! Yes, their slippage in the League was noticeable- yet their baseline performance levels didn't necessarily drop off in a lot of respects, going on data etc. Their results did somewhat however! Good business certainly, can see other clubs sponsored by 32Red not being terribly happy about it though- and there are a few! Plus given Huddersfield got fined £50,000 for their shirt thing, there's a definite slight- it's a breach of FA Kit and Advertising regs. Yet Rooney wearing '32' thereby putting '32Red' into the public domain somewhat given the publicity that surrounds him and surrounded the deal, is alright? I certainly won't gamble with them. I hope so. Doesn't matter when it is accounted for, just so long as it is. I wondered in part if the stadium sale and leaseback was in part to cover the large number of contracts that expired this summer, owing to the amortisation policy. Read different things online though, weren't some of the contracts extended for FFP purposes then the players released- if that reduces the hit taken fair enough I guess, but if it eliminates it...oh yeah the reason I wondered about the Pride Park deal and contracts expiring with the amortisation policy was because in 2015/16 there was a rather large charge of nearly £21.2m, think it was £21,198,000 or something, Impairment of Goodwill- I did wonder if that might have been linked to taking the hit on free transfers? Then again it didn't appear on the Derby accounts so probably not! Wonder how it'll be accounted for though, in the Accounts. True, I wonder what sort of profit Middlesbrough gained from it though? Could that be one differential, will have to look at their 2015/16 Accounts (Middlesbrough's) and see what arises. I certainly remember no particular media coverage of it at the time. I think it cut their losses by about £6-6.1m. Will have to look into it further tomorrow or so. Gibson has spent quite big in the past though, can't forget that!

Overall I think the Inquiry is necessary to stem some of the ill feeling and to assure that nobody has done anything they shouldn't. Consider- the many questions over Sheffield Wednesday- but let's take a look at valuations and prices paid here in 2 cases. Sheffield Wednesday- and tbh they are worthy of a separate investigation dedicated to a scrutiny of their conduct IMO! £60m. Revalued at depreciated replacement cost on 1st February 2014 at £22.25m! No huge evidence of significant upgrades since then- that's £60m, kerching?? Where is the add back on of value, where is the Reversal of Impairment etc? Certainly nothing listed in the accounts about a revaluation and a significant one such as that can seriously offset losses (dunno if it counts for FFP though). Aston Villa. £56.7m. Which sounds realistic but consider that in 2015/16 season, there was a write-down on the value of Villa Park or it will be largely Villa Park- the write-down as per the Recon Sports accounts was £44,593,000 on freehold buildings, under Tangible Fixed Assets. Will have to look in depth but don't recall any write up, add back on of value in their subsequent 2 seasons of accounts. Maybe their 2018/19 accounts will show it? That write down took it to under £30m, once historic total depreciation etc factored in! No Reversal of Impairment appears to be listed either! The others? Derby, I cannot make my mind up on- overvalued or fair? It's the highest and is eyecatchingly high considering the other sale and leaseback prices but then again local and specific factors...we'll see I guess. Reading- can't have many complaints about £26.5m surely. Lack of revaluation over the 20 years or sp could change the equation possibly.