Lee Johnson - Perhaps Why He's Selected.

[edson]

I just hope, for the sake of the team, everyone leaves any negative vibes at the turnstile and gets behind the team 100% right from kick off against Norwich. And if LJ starts, let give him some support rather than waiting for a mistake from him so people can berate him.

That's the bottom line.

Whatever anyone's opinion of Lee as a player, I don't think anyone can doubt he's trying his best (even if his best isn't good enough in the opinions of some people).

When Lee is picked to play for Bristol City, it isn't because his Dad's the manager, it's because the manager believes him to be the best player in his position. And even if you do believe he's in the team because of who his Dad is, does he deserve to be barracked for that? What do people suggest he does? Say he doesn't want to play because it's not fair on the others? Or pull on the shirt, ignore the mutterings about nepotism and get on with it?

If he's not subbed, again that is not his fault or his decision. In effect, he is being punished for decisions beyond his control, and I think that is extremely unfair.

Whatever people's views, it's an inescapable fact that, with Lee in the team, Bristol City has been promoted from League One and got to a play off final in the Championship. Obviously, that isn't entirely down to him, but as an integral part of the teams that brought us both of those achievements, surely he deserves a litttle more respect than "You only play cos your Dad's boss". Beyond that, you'd think his Bristol City CV might even have won a few more people over by now. In fact, I believe it would have done if there wasn't the nepotism stick to beat him with.

I think there is a very real danger that Lee is going to be forced out of this club by people who aren't prepared to look beyond his relationship with the manager. And where would that leave us? With a manager whose selection has been dictated by outside influences. Can anyone really envisage Gary Johnson being happy with that situation? Nor me. And I dread to think what his reaction might be.

One thing that is sure to stifle any footballer is when supporters don't allow them to make mistakes. If a player isn't allowed to make mistakes without being vilified, he won't improve. I do feel Lee no longer has the freedom to make mistakes and that brings its own unnecessary pressure, creating a vicious circle for the player.

The fear of failure can destroy success, and Lee (along with everyone else) must be allowed to play without that fear.

[William Stand]

But as has been said already, the chances he's created havent necessarily created goals.

Perhaps an indicator of the (lack of) quality of his 'assists' ?

Was there a lack of quality in the through ball that sent Sproule 1v1 againt Coventry or the ball the put Sproule 1v1 against Brum ?? There didn't seem to be a lack of quality with the skillfull ball over the top against Donny which McIndoe just failed to latch on to ?

I have no idea of the validity of the Observer stats but we do seem to be twisting ourselves in knots when the conclusion is that LJ does create chances.... but those chances aren't good enough.

Having said that Dez, pretty sure it was you that got confused after the Donny match & you thought the crunching tackle in the middle involved Elliott.... when it was Johnson. My eyesight isn't the greatest & I often confuse players, but you managed to confuse the tallest player for the smallest, not forgetting of course they are differnent skin colours.....

Maybe you're pre match refreshments influence your judgement ???

[easton boy]

Was there a lack of quality in the through ball that sent Sproule 1v1 againt Coventry or the ball the put Sproule 1v1 against Brum ?? There didn't seem to be a lack of quality with the skillfull ball over the top against Donny which McIndoe just failed to latch on to ?

I have no idea of the validity of the Observer stats but we do seem to be twisting ourselves in knots when the conclusion is that LJ does create chances.... but those chances aren't good enough.

Having said that Dez, pretty sure it was you that got confused after the Donny match & you thought the crunching tackle in the middle involved Elliott.... when it was Johnson. My eyesight isn't the greatest & I often confuse players, but you managed to confuse the tallest player for the smallest, not forgetting of course they are differnent skin colours.....

Maybe you're pre match refreshments influence your judgement ???

Personally WS, people have their own agendas against LJ - for whatever reason- and no amount of stats or REASONED debate will convince them.

Lets face it, if LJ so far, has "created" 12 goal scoring chances - is it his fault that all of them haven't been converted??

This is a player, that by all accounts, is close to a Scotland call up - yet he still isn't good enough to play for Bristol City.

Perhaps, GJ,PJ,KM, all at City, Terry Butcher, George Burley and the Scotland coaches don't know as much about LJ as the "experts" on here.

[William Stand]

Personally WS, people have their own agendas against LJ - for whatever reason- and no amount of stats or REASONED debate will convince them.

Too true Easton!. Personally I don't think it's necessailry Johnson specific. It's just whenever results go askew, in some quarter there has to be a scapegoat. So far this season it's LJ & Dele, but it will always be someone.

[bully]

Too true Easton!. Personally I don't think it's necessailry Johnson specific. It's just whenever results go askew, in some quarter there has to be a scapegoat. So far this season it's LJ & Dele, but it will always be someone.

LJ plays in the most influential position in the team. Therefore you could argue that the gameplan revolves around him so he should be the best player - which he isn't.

He gets the ball more than anyone else so again you could argue that he bears more responsibility than anyone else when things go wrong this season - forget last year as its ancient history.

I don't know GJ so I can't say whether he picks LJ because he's his son - nor does anyone else on this forum know GJ well surely, so cannot argue against people who say it's nepotism.

What I do know though, is that a pretty ordinary player (in my view) not only always gets picked regardless of form but actually appears to have the team structure built around his strengths.

If LJ fell under a bus and we had to pick someone else, would we play the same way? - I don't think so, and that's not because no-one else could do what he does.

We would probably encourage our central defenders to bring the ball out (Fontaine could do that) and the 'playmaker' build further up the pitch, just like most succesful teams..

[boadle]

Oh goodie. This 'debate' again.

[chinapig]

Let's see, in the light of some of the responses here, it appears the Observer has been recruited to the pro Lee Johnson conspiracy and is inventing or distorting numbers as a consequence. Hard to see what that paper gains from it but perhaps the editor is a close personal friend of Gary's or has been slipped a back hander by SL. Presumably we must conclude that Stephen Hunt isn't as good as they claim and that they have fiddled the figures to exclude Nick Carle from the top of the list where he belongs. No doubt that fearless seeker after the truth the Bristol Evening Post will expose this corruption.

[William Stand]

I don't know GJ so I can't say whether he picks LJ because he's his son - nor does anyone else on this forum know GJ well surely, so cannot argue against people who say it's nepotism.

I am happy to argue against the nepotism charge. To me it's simple, Gary Johnsons fortunes are inextricably linked to BCFC's (or whichever club he's managing). If the club do well then so does Gary. I am sure he harbours ambitions to manage at the highest level & if truth be known he may not really care whether thats with us or someone else. The fact is though to achive that goal he needs us to do well so that either we get to the Prem or he gets "noticed" by a prem club. Why therefore would he hamstring himself by picking a player just becasue it's his son ? If we put Johnson Jnr up for sale someone would buy him (we can only speculate what level that would be at) so it's hardly as if he needs his dads support.

If anything I actually think Johnson jnr is playing better this season to last, people just want someone to blame for the unperfect start to the season.

[Whale Eye Beef Hooked]

Personally WS, people have their own agendas against LJ - for whatever reason- and no amount of stats or REASONED debate will convince them.

Lets face it, if LJ so far, has "created" 12 goal scoring chances - is it his fault that all of them haven't been converted??

This is a player, that by all accounts, is close to a Scotland call up - yet he still isn't good enough to play for Bristol City.

Perhaps, GJ,PJ,KM, all at City, Terry Butcher, George Burley and the Scotland coaches don't know as much about LJ as the "experts" on here.

Spot on comment

[easton boy]

Oh goodie. This 'debate' again.

Could not agree more.

I bet if you were to posts a topic on the length of grass at AG or the performance of the Marketing Dept., it would soon turn into an episode of LJ bashing.

As much as I hate rising to the bait, the problem is Lewis, is that if we ignore the anti LJ brigade, next thing you know is that the evil post will be running a story on it(lets face it they directly quoted the forum as a means of ascertaining the thoughts on our current style of play last week).

[bully]

This is a player, that by all accounts, is close to a Scotland call up - yet he still isn't good enough to play for Bristol City.

Perhaps, GJ,PJ,KM, all at City, Terry Butcher, George Burley and the Scotland coaches don't know as much about LJ as the "experts" on here. :

He'll probably be in the next Scotland squad arfter the way they played then won't he?

To be honest, I didn't see Burley/Butcher comment about him.

You can ignore what PJ and KM think at City - it's GJ's decision.

Agree with what you say about all of us being experts, but that's what a forums all about isn't it.

[CiderSomerset]

Personally WS, people have their own agendas against LJ - for whatever reason- and no amount of stats or REASONED debate will convince them.

Lets face it, if LJ so far, has "created" 12 goal scoring chances - is it his fault that all of them haven't been converted??

This is a player, that by all accounts, is close to a Scotland call up - yet he still isn't good enough to play for Bristol City.

Perhaps, GJ,PJ,KM, all at City, Terry Butcher, George Burley and the Scotland coaches don't know as much about LJ as the "experts" on here.

Exactly.

Rumour has it LJ asked for a transfer after the QPR game and GJ said no. Forest offered 500k for him before the season started and again GJ said no. All rumours but I would not be suprised uf they were true.

He is reported to be close to a Scotland call up as Easton Boy quite rightly stated, GJ picks him every week, Keith Millen must agree with this selection, so maybe he is doing something right after all...

This nepotism scandal that has been going on for far too long now, will IMO eventually drive both Lee and Gary out of the club. If GJ goes, I would expect alot of the current players to follow suit. And where would that leave us?? Fuc***d, and back in league one very soon afterwards.

Granted, he isnt playing well at the moment, but do we have anyone else at the club to take his place????? Apart from Noble (fitness is his downfall), no - and thats why he isnt being left out.

Lets get off his back, get behind him and hope his form and confidence improves.

[boadle]

Could not agree more.

I bet if you were to posts a topic on the length of grass at AG or the performance of the Marketing Dept., it would soon turn into an episode of LJ bashing.

As much as I hate rising to the bait, the problem is Lewis, is that if we ignore the anti LJ brigade, next thing you know is that the evil post will be running a story on it(lets face it they directly quoted the forum as a means of ascertaining the thoughts on our current style of play last week).

Yeah, you're probably right Easton. I hate to see any player knocked in such a public way, as it would be naive to think that any professional player (with so much time on their hands) isn't going to have a look at what their fans are saying about them online, especially seeing as team confidence is at a low.

Furthermore, from a 'community' point of view, these heated debates rarely - if ever - result in anyone 'changing their mind'. It's all a macho pissing contest about who can shout the loudest. Happens with most forums as the userbase expands. Saddens me to see a group of fans who've been through so much in recent years, being so hateful towards each other.

That's why I stay out of it. Life's too short.

[dezgimed]

Was there a lack of quality in the through ball that sent Sproule 1v1 againt Coventry or the ball the put Sproule 1v1 against Brum ?? There didn't seem to be a lack of quality with the skillfull ball over the top against Donny which McIndoe just failed to latch on to ?

I have no idea of the validity of the Observer stats but we do seem to be twisting ourselves in knots when the conclusion is that LJ does create chances.... but those chances aren't good enough.

Having said that Dez, pretty sure it was you that got confused after the Donny match & you thought the crunching tackle in the middle involved Elliott.... when it was Johnson. My eyesight isn't the greatest & I often confuse players, but you managed to confuse the tallest player for the smallest, not forgetting of course they are differnent skin colours.....

Maybe you're pre match refreshments influence your judgement ???

Well if he insists on playing balls to Sproule we're never going to score are we....

I cant explain the confusion surrounding that tackle, perhaps it was the heat that day and the long walk and bottle of water that made me delirious..

[boadle]

but you managed to confuse the tallest player for the smallest, not forgetting of course they are differnent skin colours.....

SAY NO TO RACISM!!!!

[William Stand]

Well if he insists on playing balls to Sproule we're never going to score are we....

That is a fair point!

[Whale Eye Beef Hooked]

SAY NO TO RACISM!!!!

I hope you are not suggesting that the comment that LJ and Marv are different skin colours is Racism

[Guest too hot to handle]

If you had a league table of "bottled out tackles" our Cole would be miles ahead and almost uncatchable in my view.

I completely agree

[Tunley Legend]

Personally WS, people have their own agendas against LJ - for whatever reason- and no amount of stats or REASONED debate will convince them.

Lets face it, if LJ so far, has "created" 12 goal scoring chances - is it his fault that all of them haven't been converted??

This is a player, that by all accounts, is close to a Scotland call up - yet he still isn't good enough to play for Bristol City.

Perhaps, GJ,PJ,KM, all at City, Terry Butcher, George Burley and the Scotland coaches don't know as much about LJ as the "experts" on here.

You could argue the total opposite of your point - i.e that some people have their own agenda totally in favour of Lee Johnson regardless of how well or how badly he plays - and no amount of stats (1 goal in 50 matches) or reasoned debate will convince them.

However close you may believe he was to a Scotland call up the basic fact is that he didn't get it. Perhaps it would be interesting to find out the reason why he didn't get the call up and also the reasons why he "nearly" made it. That information may explode some myths on both sides of the debate.

The point I am making is that we all have OUR OWN opinions and are entitled to air them on here as long as they are within the rules. Just because I don't overly rate Lee Johnson (and I have made plenty of reasoned statements in support of that view) why should that mean I am "anti" him or "hate" him? To me that says a lot more about the way you think than the way I do. I would love it if Johnson scores a couple on Saturday and proves my viewpoint wrong - I don't want the guy to fail - but I just happen to hold an opinion that a higher quality creative player alongside Elliott plus a couple of wingers who can beat their man and put some quality balls into the box will see this team flourish. Is there anything wrong with holding that opinion apart from the fact that you disagree with it?

[megansdad]

Stats are stats. You can manipulate them to prove anything. This info says he's decent. My analysis of him last season against fellow central midfielders says he is average-poor.

Fact is you can see on the pitch if theres any value added from his inclusion, and I cant.

And of course your analysis is respected throughout the known world, while Gary Johnson has achieved nothing of note in his time as a manager either here or elsewhere.

[dezgimed]

And of course your analysis is respected throughout the known world, while Gary Johnson has achieved nothing of note in his time as a manager either here or elsewhere.

Perhaps you could offer your stance on the issue?

[Tunley Legend]

And of course your analysis is respected throughout the known world, while Gary Johnson has achieved nothing of note in his time as a manager either here or elsewhere.

So, using your logic, nobody on this forum should offer any kind of opinion on a player whatsoever, either good or bad, because we are not football managers or respected throughout the football world. I always thought that one of the best things about going to football was offering your opinion on what you have seen. But perhaps we should all tow some communist style party line and not hold our own opinion?

[scumbag]

And of course your analysis is respected throughout the known world, while Gary Johnson has achieved nothing of note in his time as a manager either here or elsewhere.

if you had a view on anything, apart from constantly dismissing the views of others on here then perhaps you posting would be worth a valid reply.

[RedM]

I think people should be careful what they wish for. All too late to appreciate what you had when it's gone. If rumours are true LJ may be playing against us one day, and like others have said Gary won't be far behind I'm sure.

We all have players we favour over others, its part of the game , deciding who to play,being the manager in your head. But when the players pull on the clubs shirts, of which we are so proud as it our club, they should expect our support, we owe it to them. I've never come away from a game thinking that I haven't done 'my bit'.

I think anyone reading this would decide Lee is booed at his every touch, far from it, I think the amount of jeers he gets has been blown out of all proportion. I don't hear any near me. So if you are reading this Lee, head up and ignore the doubters or you will begin to doubt your own ability, which you clearly have as you are the footballer here, not any of us!

[red man dan]

I think people should be careful what they wish for. All too late to appreciate what you had when it's gone. If rumours are true LJ may be playing against us one day, and like others have said Gary won't be far behind I'm sure.

We all have players we favour over others, its part of the game , deciding who to play,being the manager in your head. But when the players pull on the clubs shirts, of which we are so proud as it our club, they should expect our support, we owe it to them. I've never come away from a game thinking that I haven't done 'my bit'.

I think anyone reading this would decide Lee is booed at his every touch, far from it, I think the amount of jeers he gets has been blown out of all proportion. I don't hear any near me. So if you are reading this Lee, head up and ignore the doubters or you will begin to doubt your own ability, which you clearly have as you are the footballer here, not any of us!

I don't ususally do the old 'quote' and then just agree, but this time i have to.

WELL SAID. I just can t get over this blinkered view some people have of LJ and the reasons GJ picks him. Its just so easy to scapegoat him when things go 'wrong'. In the face of all thats put in front of them the LJ bashers barely even discuss or accept any positives about him or the results our club achieves when he plays. Granted, we wont all like the same players, opinion on that is fine, but its this whole 'he only plays because' rubbish that is just absoulutely rediculous. As if SL, who is a VERY astute buisnessman, who has made millions and run,as chairman, a multi-million pound company, would offer a manager a five year contract if they were as 'unproffesional' enough to favour thier son when selecting a team.

[dezgimed]

I think people should be careful what they wish for. All too late to appreciate what you had when it's gone. If rumours are true LJ may be playing against us one day, and like others have said Gary won't be far behind I'm sure.

We all have players we favour over others, its part of the game , deciding who to play,being the manager in your head. But when the players pull on the clubs shirts, of which we are so proud as it our club, they should expect our support, we owe it to them. I've never come away from a game thinking that I haven't done 'my bit'.

I think anyone reading this would decide Lee is booed at his every touch, far from it, I think the amount of jeers he gets has been blown out of all proportion. I don't hear any near me. So if you are reading this Lee, head up and ignore the doubters or you will begin to doubt your own ability, which you clearly have as you are the footballer here, not any of us!

Whilst people suggest those who criticise LJ are questioning GJ's professionalism, I would suggest the same of him if he was to leave if LJ was 'driven' out of the club.

Surely he's just a player, same as all the rest? He cant have it both ways. I'm sure if the fans drove Noble out the club he wouldnt leave it outrage.

Worth a thought.

[bully]

I don't ususally do the old 'quote' and then just agree, but this time i have to.

WELL SAID. I just can t get over this blinkered view some people have of LJ and the reasons GJ picks him. Its just so easy to scapegoat him when things go 'wrong'. In the face of all thats put in front of them the LJ bashers barely even discuss or accept any positives about him or the results our club achieves when he plays. Granted, we wont all like the same players, opinion on that is fine, but its this whole 'he only plays because' rubbish that is just absoulutely rediculous. As if SL, who is a VERY astute buisnessman, who has made millions and run,as chairman, a multi-million pound company, would offer a manager a five year contract if they were as 'unproffesional' enough to favour thier son when selecting a team.

Very few people dare say that LJ is picked because he's GJ's son - most people who are not a fan of his come up with reasons why they don't rate him, which are football related .

In my view, he has the team structure built around his capabilities and he's not good enough for that.

He has the most influential role on the pitch play builds from him, and he therefore touches the ball more than anyone else so should be the best player - a simplistic view perhaps but it's one that I hold.

I have said before, that if LJ was out of the team, I very much doubt if we'd play the same way, and that isn't because no-one else could do what LJ does.

[simon uk]

I personally think very few people really believe LJ is picked because his dad wants to give him a game, and anyone who does think that is deluded. However, For us to improve, I think that there are some positions that need to be upgraded, which is kind of what was supposed to happen with Maynard and Akinde coming in for Byfield and Enoch. In this case, I think someone has said that due to a lack of "steel" in midfield the wingers are having to tuck in and help out, leaving a lack of width, which I think is totally correct. LJ can deliver a nice set piece, and can pick up the ball in front of the back 4 and keep the ball moving, but that level of contribution could be improved upon by a better all round player, like Brian Howard for example, who could share the responsiblities with Marv and break forward and be a goal threat. No one said it will be cheap, and we don't have money to burn, but gradually that is what we have to be aiming towards in my opinion. LJs isnt the only position I would consider to be one that needs improving either, but it seems to me that Marv has to do a lot of attacking, then covering the ground coming back when we lose possession, whilst LJ doesnt offer enough protection as a defensive midfielder to shore things up.

I don't think anyone particularly hates LJ, but there must be a stronger option somewhere (mcGuigan at forest is the first I can think of). If it means we have to sell LJ, Noble, Wilson, Sproule, Brooker and whoever else to get the funds in to move onto the next level, thats what we will have to do in my view.

Si.

[chinapig]

I personally think very few people really believe LJ is picked because his dad wants to give him a game, and anyone who does think that is deluded. However, For us to improve, I think that there are some positions that need to be upgraded, which is kind of what was supposed to happen with Maynard and Akinde coming in for Byfield and Enoch. In this case, I think someone has said that due to a lack of "steel" in midfield the wingers are having to tuck in and help out, leaving a lack of width, which I think is totally correct. LJ can deliver a nice set piece, and can pick up the ball in front of the back 4 and keep the ball moving, but that level of contribution could be improved upon by a better all round player, like Brian Howard for example, who could share the responsiblities with Marv and break forward and be a goal threat. No one said it will be cheap, and we don't have money to burn, but gradually that is what we have to be aiming towards in my opinion. LJs isnt the only position I would consider to be one that needs improving either, but it seems to me that Marv has to do a lot of attacking, then covering the ground coming back when we lose possession, whilst LJ doesnt offer enough protection as a defensive midfielder to shore things up.

I don't think anyone particularly hates LJ, but there must be a stronger option somewhere (mcGuigan at forest is the first I can think of). If it means we have to sell LJ, Noble, Wilson, Sproule, Brooker and whoever else to get the funds in to move onto the next level, thats what we will have to do in my view.

Si.

I tend to fall marginally on the LJ side precisely because the majority of posts do in fact tend to be of the he's only in the team because his dad is manager kind or otherwise emotive and dismissive of any evidence against their prejudice. Your post is one of the rare ones that puts a rational case and is well argued without resorting to abuse.

A number of points occur to me.

1. If you play 4-4-2 your wingers are going to have to do a fair amount of dropping back or tucking in unless both your central midfield players play deep. Otherwise you are at risk of being wide open down the middle if the opposition breaks on you. Even against Kazakhstan England were caught time and again on the break when Gerrard and Lampard were on their own. OK against weak opposition but suicide against a good team.

2. I see Howard as an out and out attacking midfield player who would be wasted in a deep lying role and is not usually renowned for his defensive game. I'd love to have him (and we tried to sign him) but not in that role.

3. Cole Skuse could play the deep role but is far too diffident, doesn't demand the ball and tends to watch the game going on around him. His weakness is one of personality rather than ability I think.

4. As long as you play 4-4-2 with one deep and one breaking forward that latter will have to do exactly what you describe Marv doing.

5. I entirely agree that Lee or anybody else is replacable if you can get a better player. If there is a budding Hargreaves or Barry out there I'll have him.

6. Until that happens we do not make the best of the players we have by being obsessed with 4-4-2. Ivan is not consistent enough and Macca is more of a left sided midfield player (and a very good one) than an orthodox winger for me. We would have a much better balance if we used Johnson, Elliott and Noble in the same team in my view. Gavin Williams would also be in the mix if and when he proves his fitness and form.

It'll be interesting to see if Gary bites the bullet on Saturday and changes the formation.

[William Stand]

At the moment I think we're trying (but not succeeding) to be a bit of everything.

I agree that with 2 out & out wingers you need security in the middle. We try & get round that by tucking the wide men in & encouraging the full backs forward. The problem is this often means Orr is the player delivering the cross & his distribution is to be polite, variable.

One area I think we could improve is "tactical" team selections - I know GJ likes continuity but I think theres an argument for a different formation, away against a top side, to at home versus, say Norwich. You can't just be gung ho, but on Sat we are facing a team who are below us in the league & not in good form. The onus should be on us to attack them from the start & get them on the back foot. Clearly on Tuedsay away at Charlton we may need a much different mind set.