Lee Johnson - What Are You Actually Trying To Achieve

[Percy Parrot]

Ok, so those who showed their comic genius yesterday with the cheers for LJ coming off - forget the rights and wrongs and "I pay my money so I can do what I want" - what were you actually trying to achieve? I mean, what do you hope will happen out of this? I see 4 things here-

Lee - Whether you think he's rubbish or whether you think he plays because of his dad isn't too important. What has he ever done to you? Does he keep himself fit? Yes. Does he try on the pitch? As far as I can see yes. Is he often seen out getting drunk? No. Does he have such a temper he's a bad person to have on the pitch? No. So - are really trying to upset a player who, as far as I can see, has never done anything unprofessional or deliberately wrong to this football club or the fans. Perhaps you think it will help improve him as a player - in which case would the sports psychologists amongst you please stand up.

Gary - Maybe you are trying to humiliate and criticise the manager? That would be the manager who dragged us from league 1 promotion fodder to 90 mins from the Premier League in unbelievable time. Perhaps it's GARY you're having a go at? Perhaps you think you do know more than him about football management? Perhaps you're trying to get under the skin of the best thing to happen to this football club since the 70s? If you think Gary plays Lee because he's his son then you probably believe you're upsetting Gary by jeering Lee?

Club mentality - Maybe you've become a bit bored with this idea of success. Support, getting behind each other, helping out when things are going wrong, always believe. Sure it was fun for a bit - but now you'd like to fall back in to that mentality of getting at each other, negativity, getting on the backs of players, believing it's all doomed. Perhaps it's time to break apart that belief, unity and confidence that has seen us achieve so much. It's easy to believe and support when we're winning - first sign of trouble and you all run away. Love to have you guys as my friends or family!

Subs - Ohh, I have it now - you're trying to help the side by influencing Gary's decision making. Oh..but wait Gary DID sub Lee, so he did what you wanted. So actually - all you have probably done is ensure that next time Gary thinks "no, I am not going to subject one of my players to that kind of ridicule, I will sub Stern John instead" (for example). Totally counter productive.

But you are right - we're all entitled to our opinions and to voice them. Here's mine - those that cheered Lee Johnson's substitution yesterday are pathetic, weak minded cowards who have a fairweather idea of support. Run from the rain guys, run from the rain...you'll get wet - it might mess up your hair. Ruuuuuunnnnn.

Final word - EastEnders 2nd half, great tribute to the football club. Had a laugh, had a joke, got behind the team, got behind LJ. THAT is what football is about (having a laugh), THAT is what support is about, THAT is god-damn PRIDE. Well done to the EastEnders and the others (I believe most of the crowd) who stuck behind the lads. You lot could be my wingman any time.

[Redtucks]

Ok, so those who showed their comic genius yesterday with the cheers for LJ coming off - forget the rights and wrongs and "I pay my money so I can do what I want" - what were you actually trying to achieve? I mean, what do you hope will happen out of this? I see 4 things here-

Lee - Whether you think he's rubbish or whether you think he plays because of his dad isn't too important. What has he ever done to you? Does he keep himself fit? Yes. Does he try on the pitch? As far as I can see yes. Is he often seen out getting drunk? No. Does he have such a temper he's a bad person to have on the pitch? No. So - are really trying to upset a player who, as far as I can see, has never done anything unprofessional or deliberately wrong to this football club or the fans. Perhaps you think it will help improve him as a player - in which case would the sports psychologists amongst you please stand up.

Gary - Maybe you are trying to humiliate and criticise the manager? That would be the manager who dragged us from league 1 promotion fodder to 90 mins from the Premier League in unbelievable time. Perhaps it's GARY you're having a go at? Perhaps you think you do know more than him about football management? Perhaps you're trying to get under the skin of the best thing to happen to this football club since the 70s? If you think Gary plays Lee because he's his son then you probably believe you're upsetting Gary by jeering Lee?

Club mentality - Maybe you've become a bit bored with this idea of success. Support, getting behind each other, helping out when things are going wrong, always believe. Sure it was fun for a bit - but now you'd like to fall back in to that mentality of getting at each other, negativity, getting on the backs of players, believing it's all doomed. Perhaps it's time to break apart that belief, unity and confidence that has seen us achieve so much. It's easy to believe and support when we're winning - first sign of trouble and you all run away. Love to have you guys as my friends or family!

Subs - Ohh, I have it now - you're trying to help the side by influencing Gary's decision making. Oh..but wait Gary DID sub Lee, so he did what you wanted. So actually - all you have probably done is ensure that next time Gary thinks "no, I am not going to subject one of my players to that kind of ridicule, I will sub Stern John instead" (for example). Totally counter productive.

But you are right - we're all entitled to our opinions and to voice them. Here's mine - those that cheered Lee Johnson's substitution yesterday are pathetic, weak minded cowards who have a fairweather idea of support. Run from the rain guys, run from the rain...you'll get wet - it might mess up your hair. Ruuuuuunnnnn.

Final word - EastEnders 2nd half, great tribute to the football club. Had a laugh, had a joke, got behind the team, got behind LJ. THAT is what football is about (having a laugh), THAT is what support is about, THAT is god-damn PRIDE. Well done to the EastEnders and the others (I believe most of the crowd) who stuck behind the lads. You lot could be my wingman any time.

Good post.

Hopefully it'll make some people think...........but I wouldn't put money on it!

[Riaz]

Its a witch-hunt. Theres always a player the ashton gate faithful like to dislike and because he is the managers son, this makes it worse.

Players like Christian Roberts spring to mind. He did the business when played up front! but that wasnt good enough - because he was welsh

[bcfcred]

What were trying to acheive is to get a poor player out of the team and get Noble into the team..

Simple as.

[GrahamC]

What were trying to acheive is to get a poor player out of the team and get Noble into the team..

Simple as.

Why? Is it suddenly a 12 game season? Because that's how many he's usually available for.

I think it is clear why these people (and I have quite a number of these knuckle dragging clowns sat behind me) do it. They have decided Lee is the new Joe Burnell, Christian Roberts, Dave Rennie, etc, etc.

They also think that they know more about football than GJ and also believe this fallacy that Lee is never subbed (and I can't be bothered to reel off the ten or so games when this has happened to prove them wrong).

[Roger Red Hat]

Good post.

Hopefully it'll make some people think...........but I wouldn't put money on it!

Unfortunately, for some people, 'thinking' is a function too far.

What were trying to acheive is to get a poor player out of the team and get Noble into the team..

Simple as.

Sorry mate but you left the 's' off the last word.

[Guest LJ is our King]

What were trying to acheive is to get a poor player out of the team and get Noble into the team..

Simple as.

do you think GJ thinks "hmmm the fans don't like lee so i'll do what they say and pick the player they want" because if you do then you are seriously mistaken, GJ picks the players HE thinks are best not the players the fans want and do you know why that is? It's because he is a professional manager. I struggle to believe that any city fan is stupid enough to think they know more than GJ.

[Red]

do you think GJ thinks "hmmm the fans don't like lee so i'll do what they say and pick the player they want" because if you do then you are seriously mistaken, GJ picks the players HE thinks are best not the players the fans want and do you know why that is? It's because he is a professional manager. I struggle to believe that any city fan is stupid enough to think they know more than GJ.

It' on the pitch where it counts! LJ has had quite a few poor games lately, its no good playing bit parts.

He needs to be more consistant, on current form he is not, so give him a break from the fans and the first team.

GJ has not helped the situation on a number of occasions, when Lee should have come off. After last seasons good fortune fans expect much of the same, which is clearly not happening. So i think yesterday was a statement to GJ, saying so we are not as good as last season, but we can expect better on the pitch than we are seeing.

If Gj thinks that his team selection and tactics yesterday were right, then he should have a good look at himself.

I didn't cheer when LJ went off BUT i was happy to see him go!

[Guest LJ is our King]

It' on the pitch where it counts! LJ has had quite a few poor games lately, its no good playing bit parts.

He needs to be more consistant, on current form he is not, so give him a break from the fans and the first team.

GJ has not helped the situation on a number of occasions, when Lee should have come off. After last seasons good fortune fans expect much of the same, which is clearly not happening. So i think yesterday was a statement to GJ, saying so we are not as good as last season, but we can expect better on the pitch than we are seeing.

If Gj thinks that his team selection and tactics yesterday were right, then he should have a good look at himself.

I didn't cheer when LJ went off BUT i was happy to see him go!

yesterday i would have been happy to see anyone except basso, john and possibly elliot get substituted, but of course LJ is the club scapegoat who we blame for everything.

[City Rocker]

Here is one of the truest and most eloquently argued posts I've read on this forum for a Very Long Time.

Sadly it'll fall mostly on deaf ears, I suspect, but it needed saying and Percy Parrot you said it good

[bobby]

Ok, so those who showed their comic genius yesterday with the cheers for LJ coming off - forget the rights and wrongs and "I pay my money so I can do what I want" - what were you actually trying to achieve? I mean, what do you hope will happen out of this?

But you are right - we're all entitled to our opinions and to voice them. Here's mine - those that cheered Lee Johnson's substitution yesterday are pathetic, weak minded cowards who have a fairweather idea of support. Run from the rain guys, run from the rain...you'll get wet - it might mess up your hair. Ruuuuuunnnnn.

Final word - EastEnders 2nd half, great tribute to the football club. Had a laugh, had a joke, got behind the team, got behind LJ. THAT is what football is about (having a laugh), THAT is what support is about, THAT is god-damn PRIDE. Well done to the EastEnders and the others (I believe most of the crowd) who stuck behind the lads. You lot could be my wingman any time.

100% agree with you. I was embarrassed to be a city fan yesterday - the way some of the crowd reacted to Lee's substitution (again), what were they trying to achieve?? Won't go on about this as I think the Lee Johnson subject has been done to death on here and we will never get agreement.

However, what worries me is the way we as fans are divided and negative. We came up against a good side yesterday and too many of our players had poor games, they needed the fans behind them, to give confidence and support. Sadly this season we seem to have picked up too many fans who expect us to win every game, play beautiful football all the time and score 5 goals a game (oh and never concede any). That's not what football is about and not what being a "supporter" is about either. The East End did us proud but many others didn't.

[Frome Valley]

What were trying to acheive is to get a poor player out of the team and get Noble into the team..

Simple as.

Mr Simple

Could you give me your definition of fan and supporter?

[Robbored]

The best thing that Lee Johnson should do is leave City and sign for another club. Playing for his dad must hell for him. Its the only reason that cheers went up when he was subbed yesterday. Imagine how the poor guy must of felt and I'll bet the thought of leaving City went through his mind as he went off - and not for the first time either.

Johnson Sr hinted in his interview on World that City could 'lose a good player' because of the way some fans react to Lee Johnson. Well Johnson Sr should think about how tough it must be for his son and understand that its the relationship between him and Lee that some fans find difficult - especially when Lee is not playing that well and he doesn't get subbed (yesterday was an exception). Some fans feel that Noble is a more creative influence but doesn't get picked because of nepotism.

The whole situation will only change if Lee leaves AG. His dad has signed a 5 years deal so he won't be going anywhere just yet. Its now turned into a very sorry situation and I have every sympathy for Lee Johnson.

[Red]

100% agree with you. I was embarrassed to be a city fan yesterday - the way some of the crowd reacted to Lee's substitution (again), what were they trying to achieve?? Won't go on about this as I think the Lee Johnson subject has been done to death on here and we will never get agreement.

However, what worries me is the way we as fans are divided and negative. We came up against a good side yesterday and too many of our players had poor games, they needed the fans behind them, to give confidence and support. Sadly this season we seem to have picked up too many fans who expect us to win every game, play beautiful football all the time and score 5 goals a game (oh and never concede any). That's not what football is about and not what being a "supporter" is about either. The East End did us proud but many others didn't.

Football is a game where players get paid stupid amounts of money to give their best on the pitch, if the cant be bothered to try, or are simply not good enough give way to another player who might just give you that little bit more. As long as you show you are trying, fair enough. If not bugger off.

[bobby]

The best thing that Lee Johnson should do is leave City and sign for another club. Playing for his dad must hell for him. Its the only reason that cheers went up when he was subbed yesterday. Imagine how the poor guy must of felt and I'll bet the thought of leaving City went through his mind as he went off - and not for the first time either.

Johnson Sr hinted in his interview on World that City could 'lose a good player' because of the way some fans react to Lee Johnson. Well Johnson Sr should think about how tough it must be for his son and understand that its the relationship between him and Lee that some fans find difficult - especially when Lee is not playing that well and he doesn't get subbed (yesterday was an exception). Some fans feel that Noble is a more creative influence but doesn't get picked because of nepotism.

The whole situation will only change if Lee leaves AG. His dad has signed a 5 years deal so he won't be going anywhere just yet. Its now turned into a very sorry situation and I have every sympathy for Lee Johnson.

No absolutely not, why "should" Lee Johnson leave our club - I wouldn't blame him if he did but I certainly don't think he should just because a number of our fans can't get their head around the fact that his dad also happens to be our manager. Who would be next on the hit list, Maynard because he hasn't scored in every game, McIndoe because he is playing so well this season, Sproule perhaps because he is so frustrating to watch???? I remember Joe Burnell suffering a similar level of abuse from certain sections of the crowd, groans when his name was announced in the team, cheers when substituted etc. Some of our so called fans seem to need a scapegoat and Lee J provides an easy target because he is the managers son. Leave the club, I hope not!

[Red Cloud]

makes I laugh. lee trundle who's done hardly anything since costing us £1 million gets his name sung every game yet LJ will always be the villain even if he scored a hat trick!

[Redminster]

makes I laugh. lee trundle who's done hardly anything since costing us £1 million gets his name sung every game yet LJ will always be the villain even if he scored a hat trick!

Absolutely.

The knuckle-dragging morons who cheered LJ's substitution presumably know that Trundle is a "celebrity", the self-styled lower league David Beckham and therefore as this country seems to be obsessed with the cult of celebrity and rejects the idea of a good honest pro who quietly puts in 100% (but has some off games) the same morons will probably sing his name all season even if he scores no more goals.

There are some ignorant doughnuts who support this football club which made yesterday's experience even more embarrassing than the performance and the result.

By the way, great post from Percy, couldn't agree more.

[dezgimed]

Absolutely.

The knuckle-dragging morons who cheered LJ's substitution presumably know that Trundle is a "celebrity", the self-styled lower league David Beckham and therefore as this country seems to be obsessed with the cult of celebrity and rejects the idea of a good honest pro who quietly puts in 100% (but has some off games) the same morons will probably sing his name all season even if he scores no more goals.

There are some ignorant doughnuts who support this football club which made yesterday's experience even more embarrassing than the performance and the result.

By the way, great post from Percy, couldn't agree more.

Isnt Trundle a good honest pro who puts in 100%?

Again, an instance of villifying a player on non footballing reasons to support another.

[Redminster]

Isnt Trundle a good honest pro who puts in 100%?

Again, an instance of villifying a player on non footballing reasons to support another.

Whilst I agree the implication is there in my previous post, it wasn't actually intended as a criticism of Trundle. It's the perception of Trundle by our fans as some kind of celebrity which seems to attract unwavering support on football and non-football grounds, regardless of performances, good or bad.

The difference is if Trundle has a poor game and gets subbed you wouldn't find anyone jeering him, least of all me, as all players who play for BCFC will get my support.

Like Percy says, what are people trying to achieve by cheering the substitution of one of our players, even if he's had a poor game?

[Meh]

Couple of points.

1. I think most of that yesterday was frustration. I didn't read much in to it at the time other than "finally some subs, shame it's a good 20 minutes too late". What we don't know is, for arguments sake, if Sproule was the first change announced, would the "cheer" have been significantly less?

2. Why do arguments have to descend in to the merits of Lee Trundle based on his £1M price tag? He didn't pay it after all. Like Maynard, it was a panic buy and our Manager paid well over the odds (wasn't the initial offer reportedly only £500k?). Don't blame Trundle for his £1M price tag; blame Gary Johnson.

[dezgimed]

Whilst I agree the implication is there in my previous post, it wasn't actually intended as a criticism of Trundle. It's the perception of Trundle by our fans as some kind of celebrity which seems to attract unwavering support on football and non-football grounds, regardless of performances, good or bad.

The difference is if Trundle has a poor game and gets subbed you wouldn't find anyone jeering him, least of all me, as all players who play for BCFC will get my support.

Like Percy says, what are people trying to achieve by cheering the substitution of one of our players, even if he's had a poor game?

Fair play. But if GJ never dropped/subbed Trunds in 3 years, he would get the same reaction I'd wager.

[Robbored]

No absolutely not, why "should" Lee Johnson leave our club - I wouldn't blame him if he did but I certainly don't think he should just because a number of our fans can't get their head around the fact that his dad also happens to be our manager. Who would be next on the hit list, Maynard because he hasn't scored in every game, McIndoe because he is playing so well this season, Sproule perhaps because he is so frustrating to watch???? I remember Joe Burnell suffering a similar level of abuse from certain sections of the crowd, groans when his name was announced in the team, cheers when substituted etc. Some of our so called fans seem to need a scapegoat and Lee J provides an easy target because he is the managers son. Leave the club, I hope not!

I think you may have taken my post the wrong way.

Its not because of the stick he takes from some supporters that he should move on. If every player moved on due to fan critism then we'd have a sorry state of affairs. He should leave AG because of the baggage that goes with playing for your father and the inevitable cries of favouratism that goes with it. Those that critise LJ do so because he is the managers son and the flak he gets stems from that and not his ability as a player. Any player can do without that kind of added pressure. Nigel Clough had the same thing at Forest and he moved on.

At another club LJ wouldn't have that added pressure and play with more freedom.If he got critism then at least he'd know that it was about his abilty and nothing else.

[edson]

I think you may have taken my post the wrong way.

Its not because of the stick he takes from some supporters that he should move on. If every player moved on due to fan critism then we'd have a sorry state of affairs. He should leave AG because of the baggage that goes with playing for your father and the inevitable cries of favouratism that goes with it. Those that critise LJ do so because he is the managers son and the flak he gets stems from that and not his ability as a player. Any player can do without that kind of added pressure. Nigel Clough had the same thing at Forest and he moved on.

At another club LJ wouldn't have that added pressure and play with more freedom.If he got critism then at least he'd know that it was about his abilty and nothing else.

Nigel Clough moved on from Nottingham Forest to Liverpool after Forest had been relegated and after his father had retired as manager.

[freezer]

Why? Is it suddenly a 12 game season? Because that's how many he's usually available for.

I think it is clear why these people (and I have quite a number of these knuckle dragging clowns sat behind me) do it. They have decided Lee is the new Joe Burnell, Christian Roberts, Dave Rennie, etc, etc.

They also think that they know more about football than GJ and also believe this fallacy that Lee is never subbed (and I can't be bothered to reel off the ten or so games when this has happened to prove them wrong).

I think that sometimes the fans can be right in their judgement.

Did any of these players progress their careers at a higher level after leaving Bristol City?

[NickJ]

The best thing that Lee Johnson should do is leave City and sign for another club. Playing for his dad must hell for him. Its the only reason that cheers went up when he was subbed yesterday. Imagine how the poor guy must of felt and I'll bet the thought of leaving City went through his mind as he went off - and not for the first time either.

Johnson Sr hinted in his interview on World that City could 'lose a good player' because of the way some fans react to Lee Johnson. Well Johnson Sr should think about how tough it must be for his son and understand that its the relationship between him and Lee that some fans find difficult - especially when Lee is not playing that well and he doesn't get subbed (yesterday was an exception). Some fans feel that Noble is a more creative influence but doesn't get picked because of nepotism.

The whole situation will only change if Lee leaves AG. His dad has signed a 5 years deal so he won't be going anywhere just yet. Its now turned into a very sorry situation and I have every sympathy for Lee Johnson.

Agree with every word.

[GrahamC]

I think that sometimes the fans can be right in their judgement.

Did any of these players progress their careers at a higher level after leaving Bristol City?

Yep, Dave Rennie played in The Premier League.

[kingswood red]

Nigel Clough moved on from Nottingham Forest to Liverpool after Forest had been relegated and after his father had retired as manager.

While at Forest, Nigel averaged 34 games a season over 9 seasons. At liverpool he averaged a shade under 10 leage games a season over 2 and a half seasons. Do you get the picture?

[edson]

While at Forest, Nigel averaged 34 games a season over 9 seasons. At liverpool he averaged a shade under 10 leage games a season over 2 and a half seasons. Do you get the picture?

While at Forest, Nigel Clough scored over 100 goals in 311 league games, 6 goals in 29 FA Cup games and 22 goals in 46 League Cup games.

He was Forest's top scorer in the 1992-93 Premier League season and went to four major finals, winning two of them.

The move to Liverpool didn't really work out, as they already had Rush, and Fowler came through the youth ranks.

I lived in Nottingham for three years whilst Clough played under his Dad, and can safely say I never heard anything like the accusations I read on hear (though it was before the days of internet forums, so would have been harder to detect, I suspect).

He was very highly thought of by Forest fans and was even the subject of a fine song by The Sultans Of Ping, titled 'Give Him A Ball And A Yard Of Grass'.

That's the picture I got anyway.

[punnett]

Absolutely.

The knuckle-dragging morons who cheered LJ's substitution presumably know that Trundle is a "celebrity", the self-styled lower league David Beckham and therefore as this country seems to be obsessed with the cult of celebrity and rejects the idea of a good honest pro who quietly puts in 100% (but has some off games) the same morons will probably sing his name all season even if he scores no more goals.

There are some ignorant doughnuts who support this football club which made yesterday's experience even more embarrassing than the performance and the result.

By the way, great post from Percy, couldn't agree more.

The fact is that a large percentage of fans think that that LJ just isn't good enough at this level, my own opinion after nearly 40 yrs of following City is that he is one of the most ineffective midfielders we have ever had at this club, a poor mans Ray Wilkins if you like, my Father-in-law and cousin from Reading were sat with me in the Williams and seeing LJ for the first time could't believe how poor he was, he needs to move on for everyones sake.

[chinapig]

Its a witch-hunt. Theres always a player the ashton gate faithful like to dislike and because he is the managers son, this makes it worse.

Players like Christian Roberts spring to mind. He did the business when played up front! but that wasnt good enough - because he was welsh

Indeed. Brian Tinnion, now regarded as a legend, got some terrible treatment for a while, incluidng being abused and threatened in the street. However I do get the feeling that, despite the virtual elimination of crowd violence, the atmosphere at football grounds in general is more poisonous than ever. The abuse of players and managers seems to be worse and more personal and lacking in the kind of humour that could justify calling it banter. When you reach a point where Wolves fans boo Andy Keogh and Arsenal get booed off at half time against Everton something seems to be wrong. Not to mention the dreadful stuff people like Dave Jones and Sol Campbell have to put up with. I wonder if football has just become too serious and any sense of perspective has been lost.