Trundle And Noble

[NickJ]

Trundle and Noble must play.

TOGETHER, because they are on the same wavelength. You might even see Maynard being set up with the chances he was brought here to convert.

And even if we lose, at least there was half a chance of some entertainment from entertainers rather than watching 11 plodding workhorses. Workhorses are fine, essential, but they need to be supplemented with flair and skill and imagination.

Thats what I think.

What about you?

Lets add some statistics to the debate:

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=108539

[SJC]

I would expect both of them to be gone by the start of next season. Something that despite thinking both players have great ability and the potential to be match winners on their day, I'm fine with.

[Thornbury Red]

Trundle and Noble must play.

TOGETHER, because they are on the same wavelength. You might even see Maynard being set up with the chances he was brought here to convert.

And even if we lose, at least there was half a chance of some entertainment from entertainers rather than watching 11 plodding workhorses. Workhorses are fine, essential, but they need to be supplemented with flair and skill and imagination.

Thats what I think.

What about you?

Lets add some statistics to the debate:

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=108539

I think Lee Trundle has had plenty of opportunities in the last two seasons and quite frankly hasnt delivered. The last three matches he played resulted in nil goals v Barnsley, nil goals v Sheff Utd and a heavy defeat to Reading.

Noble is a more effective player at this level however has had fitness problems (a la Brooker) and clearly cant have a team built around him as the manager is never sure if hes available or not.

Pretty passing and nice flicks whilst pleasing on the eye do not necessarily win you games or create more chances and whilst i agree that when they play together (along with Lee Johnson) the passing improves - i don't think that the results do??

I suspect that Trundle hasnt got much of a future here - and i would think Stern John will replace heim permanently in Jan - and rightly so - hes a better player.

[Samh]

Stern John isn't a better player than Trundle. He may have been more of a goalscorer than Trundle in previous years but let's be fair, does he get you and the rest of the crowd off your seats?

I really believe that Trundle is the man to help settle Maynard and play the right balls to get him going, otherwise I think he is a lost cause on performances so far.

Ok Trundle hasn't been the most consistent, but he doesn't get a fair run in the side, he gets put out on right wing and instructed off the bench to influence games with ten mins to go (which he has done on more than one occasion).

It will be a very sad day when Lee Trundle leaves this club. I've watched City since the late 80's and would count Trundle as one of the best entertainers that I have seen down at Ashton Gate.

[Nogbad the Bad]

[quote name='Thornbury Red' date='Nov 23 2008, 10:30 AM' post='1023636

I suspect that Trundle hasnt got much of a future here - and i would think Stern John will replace heim permanently in Jan - and rightly so - hes a better player.

[red man dan]

Stern John isn't a better player than Trundle. He may have been more of a goalscorer than Trundle in previous years but let's be fair, does he get you and the rest of the crowd off your seats?

he has got many people off their seats many more times than lee trundle has because of what you have yourself written in your post....HE SCORES MORE GOALS AS A STRIKER SHOULD DO...so unless you stay rooted to your seat when a player scores i would imagine Stern will rouse you more than trundle this season.

[NickJ]

The last three matches he played resulted in nil goals v Barnsley, nil goals v Sheff Utd and a heavy defeat to Reading.

It helps to get facts right if they are to be used in support of an opinion.

Trundle was withdrawn with almost 30 minutes of the game left against Barnsley and Sheffied United at home. At home to Reading, he was brought on along with Noble and Akinde when we were 4 goals down. After which time there was a marked improvement in team performance.

Going right back, here's what happened after there was a run of 3 winless games where Trundle didnt feature at all:

Birmingham (home) Trundle came on as sub when we were 2 down, scored wonder goal. (You know, the one in a similar position to the chance that Johnson had against Southampton. Oops.)

Wolves (away) Trundle was sub and again brought on when we were 2 down. He failed to produce the magic necessary to score the 3 goals we needed in the 10 minutes he was on.

Plymouth (home) Trundle came on when we were 2 down and inspired us (along with also-sub Noble's stunning goal) to a 2-2 draw. (Sir Gary's grudging post-match comment about Noble was that he is "useful to have coming on when you are chasing the game").

Sheffield Utd (away) Trundle came off after 60 minutes, a game in which I gather any one of 6 midfield or strikers could have been withdrawn. Noble unbelievably didnt play, or perhaps not so surprising given GJ's comment.

Norwich (home) Trundle played and we won 1-0.

Charlton (away) Trundle was inspirational and scored the opening goal in a 2-0 win.

Barnsley (away) see Sheffield United away above

Sheffield United (home) Trundle came off after 60 minutes, a game in which any one of 6 midfield or strikers could have been withdrawn

Reading (home) Trundle brought on when we were 4 down. Obviously he was going to start the next match at...

Southampton (away) ... but didnt and didnt even get on. Tell-tale handshake from Sir Gary, seems to say, sorry son, but I left you out and was proved right

Notts Forest (home) Trundle again omitted for a game in which we played one striker at home to the bottom team and struggled to look the slightest bit menacing for most of the game

Palace (away) Trundle left out altogether.

If you want to base an argument entirely around results, its not difficult to work out that Trundle's time on the pitch has coincided in a significantly better return than when not.

Plus we get the anticipation of something exciting about to happen now and again.

[ciderhead456]

I think Lee Trundle has had plenty of opportunities in the last two seasons and quite frankly hasnt delivered. The last three matches he played resulted in nil goals v Barnsley, nil goals v Sheff Utd and a heavy defeat to Reading.

charlton away?

as for noble, noble away played yesterday and still exactly set the place on fire, seemed just as average as the rest of the team

[The Humble Realist]

It helps to get facts right if they are to be used in support of an opinion.

Trundle was withdrawn with almost 30 minutes of the game left against Barnsley and Sheffied United at home. At home to Reading, he was brought on along with Noble and Akinde when we were 4 goals down. After which time there was a marked improvement in team performance.

Going right back, here's what happened after there was a run of 3 winless games where Trundle didnt feature at all:

Birmingham (home) Trundle came on as sub when we were 2 down, scored wonder goal. (You know, the one in a similar position to the chance that Johnson had against Southampton. Oops.) 0 points

Wolves (away) Trundle was sub and again brought on when we were 2 down. He failed to produce the magic necessary to score the 3 goals we needed in the 10 minutes he was on. 0 points

Plymouth (home) Trundle came on when we were 2 down and inspired us (along with also-sub Noble's stunning goal) to a 2-2 draw. (Sir Gary's grudging post-match comment about Noble was that he is "useful to have coming on when you are chasing the game"). ` 1 point

Sheffield Utd (away) Trundle came off after 60 minutes, a game in which I gather any one of 6 midfield or strikers could have been withdrawn. Noble unbelievably didnt play, or perhaps not so surprising given GJ's comment. 0 points

Norwich (home) Trundle played and we won 1-0. 3 points

Charlton (away) Trundle was inspirational and scored the opening goal in a 2-0 win. 3 points

Barnsley (away) see Sheffield United away above 1 point

Sheffield United (home) Trundle came off after 60 minutes, a game in which any one of 6 midfield or strikers could have been withdrawn 3 points

Reading (home) Trundle brought on when we were 4 down. Obviously he was going to start the next match at... 0 points

Southampton (away) ... but didnt and didnt even get on. Tell-tale handshake from Sir Gary, seems to say, sorry son, but I left you out and was proved right

Notts Forest (home) Trundle again omitted for a game in which we played one striker at home to the bottom team and struggled to look the slightest bit menacing for most of the game

Palace (away) Trundle left out altogether.

If you want to base an argument entirely around results, its not difficult to work out that Trundle's time on the pitch has coincided in a significantly better return than when not.

Plus we get the anticipation of something exciting about to happen now and again.

Well it seems to me we have accumulated 11 points when Trundle has been on the pitch and 17 when he hasnt been in the team. Yes NickJ as u say "If you want to base an argument entirely around results, its not difficult to work out that Trundle's time on the pitch has coincided in a significantly better return than when not." Trundle has played in 10 games 4 starting and 6 as a sub so your statement is entirely incorrect.

So to sum up

Trundle played 9 11 points- just over a point a game

Without Trundle played 8 17 points -more than 2 points a game

You can also say that when Trundle starts our

4 games- 8 points

My point is you can use statistics to prove anything, but what u can see is that Without Trundle we average over 2 points a game,

when he starts we average 2 points a game, when you count all his appearances we average just over a point a game. From the stats and purely the stats its clear he shoudlnt play according to you cos your argument was based on us getting better results with him in the team.

Personally i was surprised but not dissapointed that he hasnt played recently. Adebola and Maynard scored yesterday, John scored the other week and looks a good player. Its the defence we need to sort out. Leaking too many goals

[NickJ]

Well it seems to me we have accumulated 11 points when Trundle has been on the pitch and 17 when he hasnt been in the team. Yes NickJ as u say "If you want to base an argument entirely around results, its not difficult to work out that Trundle's time on the pitch has coincided in a significantly better return than when not." Trundle has played in 10 games 4 starting and 6 as a sub so your statement is entirely incorrect.

So to sum up

Trundle played 9 11 points- just over a point a game

Without Trundle played 8 17 points -more than 2 points a game

You can also say that when Trundle starts our

4 games- 8 points

My point is you can use statistics to prove anything, but what u can see is that Without Trundle we average over 2 points a game,

when he starts we average 2 points a game, when you count all his appearances we average just over a point a game. From the stats and purely the stats its clear he shoudlnt play according to you cos your argument was based on us getting better results with him in the team.

Personally i was surprised but not dissapointed that he hasnt played recently. Adebola and Maynard scored yesterday, John scored the other week and looks a good player. Its the defence we need to sort out. Leaking too many goals

I'm not sure how you get to your games/points totals, are you including games when we have lost when Trundle only came on as sub in your games/points?

Here is the record for the run of games I have set out above, for games Trundle has played in, while he is on the pitch:

Birmingham WON 1-0 (30 mins)

Wolves DREW 0-0 (10 mins)

Plymouth WON 2-0 (30 mins)

Sheff U DREW 0-0 (60 mins)

Norwich WON 1-0 (90 mins)

Charlton WON 2-0 (90 mins)

Barnsley DREW 0-0 (60 mins)

Sheff U DREW 0-0 (60 mins)

Reading WON 1-0 (30 mins)

So unbeaten, and we havent even conceded a goal when he has been on the pitch. So not only is he our best attacking and entertaining player, he's a damn good defender too.

The evidence is overwhelming.

[The Humble Realist]

you cant count it like that.

When he came on against Wolves they just kept it tight at the back cos they didnt wna concede another goal. If you do it that way then most of our subs will earn more points than the team as a whole. Your stats prove that Trundle is best as an impact player.

[GP23]

Nickj you are spot on.

Trundle and Noble are the best two footballers we have at the club. In the Championship you need more than just workrate you need players with the skill and quality that can win you games. They also make the other players around them play better too.

When people go to watch City they want to be entertained. Yes its important to win, but the crowd want to see players with a bit of class and skill.

It seems they are never really going to fit in with the way Johnson wants to play and I think thats sad for the Football Club.

[windmillhillred]

I'm not sure how you get to your games/points totals, are you including games when we have lost when Trundle only came on as sub in your games/points?

Here is the record for the run of games I have set out above, for games Trundle has played in, while he is on the pitch:

Birmingham WON 1-0 (30 mins)

Wolves DREW 0-0 (10 mins)

Plymouth WON 2-0 (30 mins)

Sheff U DREW 0-0 (60 mins)

Norwich WON 1-0 (90 mins)

Charlton WON 2-0 (90 mins)

Barnsley DREW 0-0 (60 mins)

Sheff U DREW 0-0 (60 mins)

Reading WON 1-0 (30 mins)

So unbeaten, and we havent even conceded a goal when he has been on the pitch. So not only is he our best attacking and entertaining player, he's a damn good defender too.

The evidence is overwhelming.

This is laughable.

Trundle is a good player to come off the bench, he's useful when you're one (or two nil) down and have to chase a game. He's done little to show that he should be a shoe-in starter, in my view.

To talk about performances against Reading and Sheffield United is ludicrous - the games were lost when he came on. It's hardly surprising that, 4-0 up AWAY from home, Reading sat back and let Trundle run at them. Would we still have lost if Trundle had started? Almost certainly.

Trundle's conversion as some sort of god is ridiculous, as were the posts last season slagging him off. He is what he is, and I'd want me in and around the squad. But he's not necessarily the saviour.

[NickJ]

This is laughable.

Whats laughable is you took my comments as being entirely serious.

A serious point though is if Trundle cant get a game after Reading, he may as well pack it in.

[edson]

Whats laughable is you took my comments as being entirely serious.

A serious point though is if Trundle cant get a game after Reading, he may as well pack it in.

If he's not in the 16 on Tuesday, I'd say that his days are numbered, yes.

[windmillhillred]

Whats laughable is you took my comments as being entirely serious.

A serious point though is if Trundle cant get a game after Reading, he may as well pack it in.

Fair enough - though given some of the postings on here recently it wouldn't have particularly surprised me.

[NickJ]

If he's not in the 16 on Tuesday, I'd say that his days are numbered, yes.

Sounds like you know something....

MESSAGE TO GARY:

Bristol City traditionally play entertaining football, its that mob across town who are the defensive long ball merchants. We have our standards.

Thanks.

[edson]

Sounds like you know something....

No, I don't.

Just going on the fact that Trundle hasn't featured in either the first team or reserves in recent weeks.

With the manager talking about changes being made after yesterday's result, if Trundle still doesn't feature on Tuesday, then I'd have to think that his opportunities have all but disappeared,

[The Humble Realist]

We have one of the best defences in this division with 8 clean sheets being bettered by no other team.

We have had 5 occasions in the last 8 games where we have not conceded - only 3 games in the last 8 where we have conceded, that sounds more than good to me, especially as we have had a makeshift left back during some of those games.

The defence is fine, it's going forward where we are struggling.

Well Reading shipped 4 goals

Southamtpon clean sheet fair enuf

Forest -2 goals

Palace-4 goals

10 goals in 4 games hardly "fine"

If we'd only conceded 1 goal in every game we'd have 8 points instead of 4.

[BS3_RED]

I think Lee Trundle has had plenty of opportunities in the last two seasons and quite frankly hasnt delivered. The last three matches he played resulted in nil goals v Barnsley, nil goals v Sheff Utd and a heavy defeat to Reading.

Noble is a more effective player at this level however has had fitness problems (a la Brooker) and clearly cant have a team built around him as the manager is never sure if hes available or not.

Pretty passing and nice flicks whilst pleasing on the eye do not necessarily win you games or create more chances and whilst i agree that when they play together (along with Lee Johnson) the passing improves - i don't think that the results do??

I suspect that Trundle hasnt got much of a future here - and i would think Stern John will replace heim permanently in Jan - and rightly so - hes a better player.

And where is the proof of that?

[kachina]

Sheffield United (home) Trundle came off after 60 minutes, a game in which any one of 6 midfield or strikers could have been withdrawn. 3 points

Well it seems to me we have accumulated 11 points when Trundle has been on the pitch and 17 when he hasnt been in the team. Yes NickJ as u say "If you want to base an argument entirely around results, its not difficult to work out that Trundle's time on the pitch has coincided in a significantly better return than when not." Trundle has played in 10 games 4 starting and 6 as a sub so your statement is entirely incorrect.

So to sum up

Trundle played 9 11 points- just over a point a game

Without Trundle played 8 17 points -more than 2 points a game

You can also say that when Trundle starts our

4 games- 8 points

My point is you can use statistics to prove anything, but what u can see is that Without Trundle we average over 2 points a game,

when he starts we average 2 points a game, when you count all his appearances we average just over a point a game. From the stats and purely the stats its clear he shoudlnt play according to you cos your argument was based on us getting better results with him in the team.

Personally i was surprised but not dissapointed that he hasnt played recently. Adebola and Maynard scored yesterday, John scored the other week and looks a good player. Its the defence we need to sort out. Leaking too many goals

Stucks we drew with Sheff Utd, not won !!!!!!

[The Humble Realist]

Apologies for my error, although it simply serves to aid my opinion that i would have Trundle on the bench

[William Stand]

It helps to get facts right if they are to be used in support of an opinion.

Trundle was withdrawn with almost 30 minutes of the game left against Barnsley and Sheffied United at home. At home to Reading, he was brought on along with Noble and Akinde when we were 4 goals down. After which time there was a marked improvement in team performance.

Going right back, here's what happened after there was a run of 3 winless games where Trundle didnt feature at all:

Birmingham (home) Trundle came on as sub when we were 2 down, scored wonder goal. (You know, the one in a similar position to the chance that Johnson had against Southampton. Oops.)

Wolves (away) Trundle was sub and again brought on when we were 2 down. He failed to produce the magic necessary to score the 3 goals we needed in the 10 minutes he was on.

Plymouth (home) Trundle came on when we were 2 down and inspired us (along with also-sub Noble's stunning goal) to a 2-2 draw. (Sir Gary's grudging post-match comment about Noble was that he is "useful to have coming on when you are chasing the game").

Sheffield Utd (away) Trundle came off after 60 minutes, a game in which I gather any one of 6 midfield or strikers could have been withdrawn. Noble unbelievably didnt play, or perhaps not so surprising given GJ's comment.

Norwich (home) Trundle played and we won 1-0.

Charlton (away) Trundle was inspirational and scored the opening goal in a 2-0 win.

Barnsley (away) see Sheffield United away above

Sheffield United (home) Trundle came off after 60 minutes, a game in which any one of 6 midfield or strikers could have been withdrawn

Reading (home) Trundle brought on when we were 4 down. Obviously he was going to start the next match at...

Southampton (away) ... but didnt and didnt even get on. Tell-tale handshake from Sir Gary, seems to say, sorry son, but I left you out and was proved right

Notts Forest (home) Trundle again omitted for a game in which we played one striker at home to the bottom team and struggled to look the slightest bit menacing for most of the game

Palace (away) Trundle left out altogether.

If you want to base an argument entirely around results, its not difficult to work out that Trundle's time on the pitch has coincided in a significantly better return than when not.

Plus we get the anticipation of something exciting about to happen now and again.

Nick, in a very detailed response you appear to have missed the incident Sheff utd at home where a good Lee Johnson shot was save & Trundle contrived not to score from 4 yards ?? Odd you missed this but spotted Johnson "miss" from 45 yards at Soton - I'm sure it was a genuine oversight & not an attempt to "spin" your version of events.

Before anyone questions it, I like Trundle as much as anyone & would love him to succeed.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Nick, in a very detailed response you appear to have missed the incident Sheff utd at home where a good Lee Johnson shot was save & Trundle contrived not to score from 4 yards ?? Odd you missed this but spotted Johnson "miss" from 45 yards at Soton - I'm sure it was a genuine oversight & not an attempt to "spin" your version of events.

Before anyone questions it, I like Trundle as much as anyone & would love him to succeed.

It was a bad 'miss' by Trundle against Sheff. Utd, but surely every striker has to be allowed the luxury of being given the opportunity to put that right by sticking away the next chance?

The problem is of course is it will be a hell of a long time until our team provide Trundle with a similar tap in - how many has he ever had in all his time with us?

We don't know how successful he might have been in a City team where he didn't have to create virtually every chance for himself.

[William Stand]

It was a bad 'miss' by Trundle against Sheff. Utd, but surely every striker has to be allowed the luxury of being given the opportunity to put that right by sticking away the next chance?

The problem is of course is it will be a hell of a long time until our team provide Trundle with a similar tap in - how many has he ever had in all his time with us?

We don't know how successful he might have been in a City team where he didn't have to create virtually every chance for himself.

Fair points Nog, as I say I am a Trundle fan, all I was trying to do was give some balance. For what its worht, I doubt if throughout his career Trundle has scored many "tap in's" - to me he's not a poacher type striker - he makes his goals for himself (think the Scunny game last year). For all his skills, I do wonder if he is quite good enough to do it at this level, but trust me, I'd love him to be a regular starter & scorer for us.

Maybe we need to be brave, ditch the target man (which is a tad unfair on Dele as he never lets us down) & play Trundle & Maynard upfront ??

[Nogbad the Bad]

Fair points Nog, as I say I am a Trundle fan, all I was trying to do was give some balance. For what its worht, I doubt if throughout his career Trundle has scored many "tap in's" - to me he's not a poacher type striker - he makes his goals for himself (think the Scunny game last year). For all his skills, I do wonder if he is quite good enough to do it at this level, but trust me, I'd love him to be a regular starter & scorer for us.

Maybe we need to be brave, ditch the target man (which is a tad unfair on Dele as he never lets us down) & play Trundle & Maynard upfront ??

Very hard to criticise Dele, except for the fact that his inlcusion does seem to go hand in hand with a certain style of football and the accompanying inevitability that other players will be sidelined.

Your suggestion of Maynard and Trundle would make sense in many ways, not least utilising our two most expensive acquisitions.

Up front as a twosome, or perhaps more productively with Trundle just behind Maynard feeding him through balls and also having the space to use his shooting prowess from distance, would certainly suit me. It would have to be for a minimum 10 game run though so we could all judge their effectiveness together once and for all.

You would still have the option of bringing Dele on for an alternative ariel bombardment of the opposition late on if necessary, as we've done previously by moving Vasko or McCombe up front.

[JudgeRed]

I think the whole damn team is apalling!! Put them on the transfer list for jan & get rid of them all!! get GJ out aswell. Lets start a fresh & get a manager & team who REALY want us to progress the man i feel sorry the most is Steve Lansdown.

As you can see i am REALY angry about this latest defeat by little old (Poor mans football club) Crystal Palace.

[swansfan]

I still don't know why Gary Johnson bought him from us if he knew he was never going to play him? He gave us £1 million pounds though so can't be all bad?

[swansea_jack]

Give a long run in the team i honestly believe he will do an awesome job for you as he brings something different to his game he'll certainly keep you lot entertained,ok he's not guaranteed to score every game but then again are any of your strikers? i know exactly how frustrating it is to have strikers in the squad who are struggling to score we got the same problem down here!

[swansfan]

You have way more strikers than us and you have the same problem as us - can't score!!