Stern John - On Reflection,

[belfastrobin]

You have a link to the manager saying that because I read most if not all of his interviews and I've never heard or read him say it?

So in all the times you've watched LT you've never noticed that he plays very well when we give him the ball to feet facing goal and doesn't when we don't?

And you think he has a lack of workrate when he's frequently found running the channels wide and deep to try and make himself available?

Strange point of view but each to their own.

I watched the interview on bcworld and it was also mentioned on this forum at the time. GJ stated that LT and DN's work rate was not good enough and needed to be worked on. I'm sure someone else could clarify this.

In all the times ive seem LT play yes he does play better when the ball is played to feet facing goal but he's not as good as alot make him out to be. Imo he is an average CCC player thats all, and i think SJ is a better partner for NM

He maybe freguently found running the channels etc but the point is he cant do it for a full game which is why he is always subbed and why he is better as an impact player late on in a match

[redrob]

Although I agree that SJ is very frustrating (especially when the ball is 3 yards away and bobbling about unchallenged) I have to say that tehre is obvioulsy something he is doing that is bringing Nicky Maynard to the fore!

Sj does have a nack of making intelligent movements toward or away from Nicky that are reminiscent of a basketballer setting a screen or set play to allow another player to loose his marker.

I too agree that SJ is not a prolific goal scorer and never has been. Even his 19 goals last season, his best return for a season (other than at Columbus Crew) were at a ratio of 1 goal every 2.5 games.

Yes 2 in 8 games is not great but then again it is no worse than Adebola or Trundle and if Nicky is scoring perhaps SJ is the striker who will not score bagfulls but will allow another player to do that such as Ole Gunnar Solskjar playing with Nady Cole at Man Utd?

[Alex_BCFC]

I thought he was good when he turned up and I still think he is a good player with an excellent touch. He links the play well. Yes he is lazy and really City fans don't like lazy players- they like hard workers like Marvin Elliot and Bradley Orr. Players with quality are often overlooked in favour of hard workers in fact which is sad I think as a team needs a bit of everything.

I'm glad we have signed him until the end of the season. For me he a better goal scorer than Dele and will get around about 1 in 3 (should he score next game he will be on track for that) which is better than Dele's record no? We have a worker upfront in Maynard so we don't desperately need another- just an old head to help us and I think SJ is that man.

And even if you did think he is crap, he seems to have improved Maymard and Sproule in a short space of time which is fairly valuable in itself.

[citynut54]

- could we sign Jack Dee or Frank Skinner for less?

Thought we wanted a comedian

[simonwheeler]

Must admit I said it a couple of weeks ago and I will say it again? "If" he is on allegedly between 8 and 12K a week then I would expect a lot more. Sorry whilst I am very appreciative of the recent upturn I personally cannot see ON THE PITCH (And thats where they earn the money - Not being a nice chap in the dressing room) what he has contributed? Sorry but we should be investing in the future and Stern is now nearing the end of his career?

Back to St.Marys at first possible opportunity for me.

[DaveF]

He's the main reason for Sproule and Maynard playing so well.

His touch and hold up play is fantastic and he's the perfect partner to mature Maynard.

2 goals in 8 isn't exactly bad when you compare him to our other strikers.

[Nogbad the Bad]

He's the main reason for Sproule and Maynard playing so well.

Didn't Stern play in a number of games when the whole team was playing badly/underperforming prior to the last couple?

Most of us believed it was only a matter of time before Maynard came good. Nothing more than coincidence as far as I'm concerned.

Nothing is proved with Ivan after 2 good games, certainly not that Stern is the catalyst for what might well be only a temporary improvement anyway.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

Didn't Stern play in a number of games when the whole team was playing badly/underperforming prior to the last couple?

Most of us believed it was only a matter of time before Maynard came good. Nothing more than coincidence as far as I'm concerned.

Nothing is proved with Ivan after 2 good games, certainly not that Stern is the catalyst for what might well be only a temporary improvement anyway.

That's certainly not the view of Maynard himself, nor of Ivan Sproule, both of whom in interviews in the past two days have put their recent resurgence in form down to the role that Stern John is playing in the side. John may not have electric pace, but I find the suggestion that he is lazy quite wrong. He is a workhorse and offers us an alternative to Adebola. He is there because Johnson, sadly, ran out of patience with Brooker. Trundle can't possibly do what John does, he is a completely different sort of player, one that likes to run at players from deep or from wide positions. Trundle has no pace and little physical presence, but huge levels of skill. He can't get into the team at the moment because Maynard has hit form, not because Johnson is persisting with John.

[pocketscrots]

i think one thing that stern does is get himself man marked (or certainly watched more) by opposition defenders. Most will have played against him when he was banging in the goals last season and will be wery of this. This results in freeing up nicky m to have the weeker defender or more space in and and around the box. - resulting in his recent improvement in form and confidence.

[kristian444]

The Southampton chairman said at their AGM that the loan was always a season long one, I'm sure there was a get out though, anything else would be madness.

It couldn't have been a season long loan from day one because outside of the window, players can only be signed on 3-month 'emergency' loans. It's obvious that Johnson wanted him here for the entire season, but I just wanted to clear that up so people would stop with the bleedin' conspiracy theories.

[Red Zeppelin]

Maynard and John have both offered more to the team than any other striker this season, fact. Yes he looks lazy and could work harder, but when the ball is at his feet John delivers more end product than any of our other strikers except Maynard, as the figures show.

[Nogbad the Bad]

That's certainly not the view of Maynard himself, nor of Ivan Sproule, both of whom in interviews in the past two days have put their recent resurgence in form down to the role that Stern John is playing in the side.

That's the whole point of this thread - many of us feel Stern's influence, for some reason, seems to be being exaggerated.

John may not have electric pace,

I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

He is a workhorse and offers us an alternative to Adebola.

Like Akinde you mean?

Trundle can't possibly do what John does, he is a completely different sort of player, one that likes to run at players from deep or from wide positions.

No, that's just how City have played him, Trundle played up front when being successful at at Swansea.

Trundle has no pace and little physical presence, but huge levels of skill.

Whereas Stern has physical presence, no pace and less skill.

He can't get into the team at the moment because Maynard has hit form, not because Johnson is persisting with John.

I don't know why he can't get in the team, more particularly why he hasn't been given the long run of games Stern has had to try and forge a partnership with Maynard.

[Economou]

I love watching Trunds but I don't think GJ has forgiven him for that miss against Sheff Utd.

Stern John has two feet, good movement, a football brain, is good in the air and has said that most of his goals come in the second half of the season. If this is so it bodes well for the rest of the campaign !

[Donkeeebles]

A couple of days ago, I was willing to concede that GJ obviously knows best and perhaps the lazy player i'm seeing has a lot more to offer, but, things are rankling me.

The obvious thing is his lack of involvement. The guy won't move 3 yards towards the ball, he expects it right to his feet. He rarely jumps for a header, instantly giving away possession and you don't win fouls unless you leave the ground at any level. The ref needs to see a genuine challenge being stopped. On Sunday, he won one header; Maynard won three ffs !!

We have our Manager stating you won't see him move much on the pitch, but, he is great around the other lads and the dressing room. Remind you of anybody? Maybe a £1M striker lots of people, at least prior to this week (before the great Stern John love in started) wanted to see start ahead of Stern John.

Trundle has been publicly chastised by GJ for his lack of involvement. Stern it seems, has been given full approval for the same thing!! Trundle, for me, does put in the effort, however, his lack of pace/mobility hampers him as it does Stern. Why one rule for one ageing player and totally different for another?

Prior, to Maynard's recent emergence, many people have questioned GJ in the transfer market. I suggest his latest backing of Stern is due to the now apparent fact that he was here for the season irrespective of how he performed.

The majority on here were baying for SJ to go back to the Saints only last week, so what's changed so quickly?

Apparently his performance at Palarse helped, albeit, I don't see that as he once again didn't move and apart from one or two neat passes all we saw was a poor shot which should have been buried.

The other reason is he has been praised by Ivan and Sproule on the Official Spin site. Firstly, what are they going to say? "yeah, Stern's a lazy ####### so I don't really know why he plays". Get real; players will say what they are expected to say and what they are prompted to say or it is a 1-way ticket to the bench or reserves.

If you take Nicky; I have commented as others have, that it is obvious that the aforementioned Trundle has been very supportive of him; always encouraging, always going over to give a quick word or pat on the head (that's when he can actually get on the pitch). If anybody outwardly appears to be mentoring Maynard, it is LT. However, suddenly, although you see little talking on the pitch between the two, it is Stern that is the one helping the young lad out.

I would suggest, it is a mixture of all the experienced players helping out the young lads i.e Trundle, Adebola, Stern, Carey etc., however, in the week the club announces a relatively unsuccessful loan signing is here for the season; a loan signing that has been questioned by a vocal majority; all we hear is how great he has been.

Sorry, I don't buy it. His performances are not good enough and they are plenty of other players who are good around the dressing room. He should have gone back to the Saints.

The simple fact is we were lead to believe we actually had an option to release in January when we plainly did not, unless GJ was to back-track on a gents agreement that would reflect badly on the club.

Ivan and Nicky are doing their jobs. They would say the same if Trundle was due to leave in January and then decided to stay.

Orr will be another example. If he goes, some player or other will be on the main site stating we can cope, we will bring in a better player etc. If he stays, the same player will be stating how chuffed the squad is !!

Just for a second, forget GJ's approval of Stern not having to work hard for the team (even though he drops Trundle and Noble for that very reason). Forget Nicky and Ivan singing his praises and ask yourself; has he truly done enough to warrant large wages and a regular starting place?

A great post Neo. I agree with everything you say. I have to be honest i am surprised by the level of support he has received on this site. If you read the other Stern thread he has quite a bit of support. I have said what i have thought of his performances and arguments that have come back have ranged from he has a world class first touch....his international goals tally is superb despite playing against hardly anyone of any real quality.....he lays the ball off well.....and somebody said that if i cant see what he is bringing to the team then i must be watching a different game.

I would prefer Trundle!!!!!! ....but if Stern is here and is going to play then i will fully support him.....but at the moment apart from the reading game i am yet to be convinced.

[DavidNoble]

ive got mixed feelings on this one, improving the quality of sproule and co.

although not looking great himself!

thoughts?

[Donkeeebles]

Maynard and John have both offered more to the team than any other striker this season, fact. Yes he looks lazy and could work harder, but when the ball is at his feet John delivers more end product than any of our other strikers except Maynard, as the figures show.

I am not so sure that it is fact!!!!! Maynard yes but where are the facts to say that John has offered more than any other striker???? I would say it is more an opinion than a fact!!!!!! (which of course you are entitled to)Unless of course you have these figures that you mention.....i would be very interested to see them

[Maesknoll Red]

I love watching Trunds but I don't think GJ has forgiven him for that miss against Sheff Utd.

Stern John has two feet, good movement, a football brain, is good in the air and has said that most of his goals come in the second half of the season. If this is so it bodes well for the rest of the campaign !

This got me looking at his stats:

02/03 Season.

6 goals in the first half of the season (inc. one hat trick)

3 goals in the second half

2 Yellow cards

03/04 Season.

0 goals in the first half of the season (only played 9 games)

4 goals in the second half (played most games)

No yellow cards

04/05 Season.

3 goals in the first half of the season

9 goals in the second half

1 Yellow card

05/06 Season.

0 goals in the first half of the season

11 goals in the second half

5 Yellow cards (all between Sept and Jan)

06/07 Season.

5 goals in the first half of the season

5 goals in the second half

1 Yellow card

07/08 Season.

10 goals in the first half of the season (inc. one hat trick v Hull)

10 goals in the second half

1 Yellow card

1 Red card

The 04/05 & 05/06 seasons are the only ones that really back up the more goals in the second half of the season theory, as in 03/04 the figures are skewed by his lack of games.

He has picked up a surprisingly low number of cards through his career, clever and astute play? or not putting himself about enough?

[Economou]

Re. the goals, I was quoting from his World interview. But looking at his stats the last two seasons don't really back up his point !

Most forwards don't tend to pick up many bookings, don't think Lineker got too many.

[redsrus]

I love watching Trunds but I don't think GJ has forgiven him for that miss against Sheff Utd.

Stern John has two feet, good movement, a football brain, is good in the air and has said that most of his goals come in the second half of the season. If this is so it bodes well for the rest of the campaign !

sorry mate, can`t let you get away with "good in the air".

Apart from the Tractor boys game I have seen all his games and a threat in the air he isn`t.

I have seen him miss 3/4 sitters in the air mind.

I won`t criticise him further because I have done so for the last 6 weeks and now I`m off message.

I hope your optimism is right.

[Donkeeebles]

This got me looking at his stats:

02/03 Season.

6 goals in the first half of the season (inc. one hat trick)

3 goals in the second half

2 Yellow cards

03/04 Season.

0 goals in the first half of the season (only played 9 games)

4 goals in the second half (played most games)

No yellow cards

04/05 Season.

3 goals in the first half of the season

9 goals in the second half

1 Yellow card

05/06 Season.

0 goals in the first half of the season

11 goals in the second half

5 Yellow cards (all between Sept and Jan)

06/07 Season.

5 goals in the first half of the season

5 goals in the second half

1 Yellow card

07/08 Season.

10 goals in the first half of the season (inc. one hat trick v Hull)

10 goals in the second half

1 Yellow card

1 Red card

The 04/05 & 05/06 seasons are the only ones that really back up the more goals in the second half of the season theory, as in 03/04 the figures are skewed by his lack of games.

He has picked up a surprisingly low number of cards through his career, clever and astute play? or not putting himself about enough?

Too be fair 20 goals in a season is good in any division.....if he can reapeat that sort of form i for one will gladly be eating my words

[Meh]

It couldn't have been a season long loan from day one because outside of the window, players can only be signed on 3-month 'emergency' loans. It's obvious that Johnson wanted him here for the entire season, but I just wanted to clear that up so people would stop with the bleedin' conspiracy theories.

What conspiracy theories?

[Meh]

His touch and hold up play is fantastic and he's the perfect partner to mature Maynard.

his touch is good, however, his lack of willingness to move means the number of touches are limited. I think his hold up play is shocking; he rarely wins a ball to hold it up.

2 goals in 8 isn't exactly bad when you compare him to our other strikers.

which other strikers? the ones who get a few minutes as sub when we are 1 or 2 down?

[RedM]

Exactly. We are hardly comparing like with like are we.

I've said on another thread that Trundle/Maynard could have worked if they were both given time on the pitch at the same time. I don't think we will ever know whether there was a partnership there or not now.

And Neo,for what it's worth, I find myself agreeing with every word you've said in this thread.

[Guest big red lee]

What a crap post

i find it discusting that pepoe are questioning johns ability to score goals

and i know iv only just singed up to the form but in the past i have never seen a post questionin deles ability

and when they do they get shot down and labled a dele basher

well call me a dele basher but i don't rate him imo stern is twice the player dele is john has class he maybe old but still has it

dele gets no way near the amount of goals he should do for a stricker where i can see john getting a hell of a lot more goals than dele

so realy i think pepole should get off john back and start questioning deles performances

sorry for the bad punc

[RedM]

What a crap post

i find it discusting that pepoe are questioning johns ability to score goals

and i know iv only just singed up to the form but in the past i have never seen a post questionin deles ability

and when they do they get shot down and labled a dele basher

well call me a dele basher but i don't rate him imo stern is twice the player dele is john has class he maybe old but still has it

dele gets no way near the amount of goals he should do for a stricker where i can see john getting a hell of a lot more goals than dele

so realy i think pepole should get off john back and start questioning deles performances

sorry for the bad punc

Two very different situations.

Dele was bought and paid for, he is our player. Stern john is on loan. Most people were under the impression the loan was due to finish in January and he had done (almost) nothing of note to warrant this loan to be extended. If Southampton can't afford, him he doesn't come cheap, would our money be more wisely spent elsewhere? Most people expected these 2 factors to be considered and he would be returning to Southampton, and what they do with him to save money isn't our problem.

I am happy the players feel that he has improved us so much, and long may it continue. But if it was up to me he wouldn't have been here this long, so lucky it isn't up to me , eh!

[Olé]

Really good and thoughtful post.

Just to add to the general approval of this post, you make an excellent point and cover all bases, I agree entirely. THIS is what a forum exists for, not the baseless rubbishing of the manager (or his son), but analytical deconstruction of the players we are investing our money in. Something we're most certainly doing with Stern John. This is an issue that needs challenging.

I've been pointing out that John is rubbish since he arrived and have stuck by that view week on week. Our only win in his first month was when he wasn't able to play. I think he's one of the worst signings we've made and I'm amazed we're extending the deal. He looks easy to play against, abysmal in the air, is clearly not a team player, and good touches once in a blue moon.

In the past week, perhaps buoyed by the wins, I've decided to give the benefit of the doubt to the comments of his teammates but Neo makes a good point about 'what would they say'. As it happens I think the single biggest reason Maynard has flourished recently is not what John has added but what he's taken away - a non-entity who makes Maynard feel more responsible.

I honestly think Maynard is doing more and is more inclined to shoot because he doesn't feel like there is someone else up front he needs to play in or share duties with. With John doing nothing, Maynard has got the message that this is his attack and his opportunity. More or less the role he had by default at Crewe. The problem with Trundle is he can't fill this role as he as some talent.

What amazes me is it doesn't take 10 grand a week to put a rubbish striker up front and convince Maynard the buck stops with him. We could have made the same point with a teenager - i.e. Plummer - and got the opportunity to develop a young player into the bargain. And before anyone points out that Plummer isn't going to hold the football up, well, Stern John isn't either is he.

I'll happily be proved wrong, and I do genuinely wonder what has got Ivan Sproule so involved recently, but I reckon if we sign any striker this month worth his salt, John will end up being a very well paid reserve player by Easter.

[WTFiGO!?!]

A couple of days ago, I was willing to concede that GJ obviously knows best and perhaps the lazy player i'm seeing has a lot more to offer, but, things are rankling me.

The obvious thing is his lack of involvement. The guy won't move 3 yards towards the ball, he expects it right to his feet. He rarely jumps for a header, instantly giving away possession and you don't win fouls unless you leave the ground at any level. The ref needs to see a genuine challenge being stopped. On Sunday, he won one header; Maynard won three ffs !!

We have our Manager stating you won't see him move much on the pitch, but, he is great around the other lads and the dressing room. Remind you of anybody? Maybe a £1M striker lots of people, at least prior to this week (before the great Stern John love in started) wanted to see start ahead of Stern John.

Trundle has been publicly chastised by GJ for his lack of involvement. Stern it seems, has been given full approval for the same thing!! Trundle, for me, does put in the effort, however, his lack of pace/mobility hampers him as it does Stern. Why one rule for one ageing player and totally different for another?

Prior, to Maynard's recent emergence, many people have questioned GJ in the transfer market. I suggest his latest backing of Stern is due to the now apparent fact that he was here for the season irrespective of how he performed.

The majority on here were baying for SJ to go back to the Saints only last week, so what's changed so quickly?

Apparently his performance at Palarse helped, albeit, I don't see that as he once again didn't move and apart from one or two neat passes all we saw was a poor shot which should have been buried.

The other reason is he has been praised by Ivan and Sproule on the Official Spin site. Firstly, what are they going to say? "yeah, Stern's a lazy ####### so I don't really know why he plays". Get real; players will say what they are expected to say and what they are prompted to say or it is a 1-way ticket to the bench or reserves.

If you take Nicky; I have commented as others have, that it is obvious that the aforementioned Trundle has been very supportive of him; always encouraging, always going over to give a quick word or pat on the head (that's when he can actually get on the pitch). If anybody outwardly appears to be mentoring Maynard, it is LT. However, suddenly, although you see little talking on the pitch between the two, it is Stern that is the one helping the young lad out.

I would suggest, it is a mixture of all the experienced players helping out the young lads i.e Trundle, Adebola, Stern, Carey etc., however, in the week the club announces a relatively unsuccessful loan signing is here for the season; a loan signing that has been questioned by a vocal majority; all we hear is how great he has been.

Sorry, I don't buy it. His performances are not good enough and they are plenty of other players who are good around the dressing room. He should have gone back to the Saints.

The simple fact is we were lead to believe we actually had an option to release in January when we plainly did not, unless GJ was to back-track on a gents agreement that would reflect badly on the club.

Ivan and Nicky are doing their jobs. They would say the same if Trundle was due to leave in January and then decided to stay.

Orr will be another example. If he goes, some player or other will be on the main site stating we can cope, we will bring in a better player etc. If he stays, the same player will be stating how chuffed the squad is !!

Just for a second, forget GJ's approval of Stern not having to work hard for the team (even though he drops Trundle and Noble for that very reason). Forget Nicky and Ivan singing his praises and ask yourself; has he truly done enough to warrant large wages and a regular starting place?

Firstly, are you RedTop in disguise?

Secondly, I've never quite got the hang of this punctuation, melarky, so please fill me in. Gramatatically, please.

thirdly, I appreciate you don't give a f#ck, which is call.

Fourthly, I've ran out of points, other that to say, my memory's shot xx

[WTFiGO!?!]

Fifthly, yes I do think I'm funny.

[bully]

Just to add to the general approval of this post, you make an excellent point and cover all bases, I agree entirely. THIS is what a forum exists for, not the baseless rubbishing of the manager (or his son), but analytical deconstruction of the players we are investing our money in. Something we're most certainly doing with Stern John. This is an issue that needs challenging.

I've been pointing out that John is rubbish since he arrived and have stuck by that view week on week. Our only win in his first month was when he wasn't able to play. I think he's one of the worst signings we've made and I'm amazed we're extending the deal. He looks easy to play against, abysmal in the air, is clearly not a team player, and good touches once in a blue moon.

What amazes me is it doesn't take 10 grand a week to put a rubbish striker up front and convince Maynard the buck stops with him. We could have made the same point with a teenager - i.e. Plummer - and got the opportunity to develop a young player into the bargain. And before anyone points out that Plummer isn't going to hold the football up, well, Stern John isn't either is he.

A question please - is any criticism of LJ or GJ baseless rubbishing? - most criticism of them I have seen has been thought out whether you agree with it or not.

I'm not personally in favour of keeping Stern John but quite a lot of his supporters will see your comments as baseless rubbishing.

[Olé]

A question please - is any criticism of LJ or GJ baseless rubbishing? - most criticism of them I have seen has been thought out whether you agree with it or not.

I'm not personally in favour of keeping Stern John but quite a lot of his supporters will see your comments as baseless rubbishing.

But the point is (and I think someone else made it) Stern John is on a loan which was supposed to end in January. Therefore we have the opportunity to debate a decision in the here and now. Perhaps not influence the club but at least set the tone in which the (odd) decision to extend his loan is made.

On the other hand, Lee Johnson is employed full time by Bristol City Football Club and so of course is Gary Johnson, so what is the point of going over and over opinions on either? They're both important ongoing parts of this club for the right reasons and no amount of squealing is going to change that.

'Baseless' was a generalisation but a lot of remarks about either have been knee-jerk short-term post match frustration. On the other hand short-term views of Stern John are not without basis because that is precisely what the guy was supposed to be - short term. This type of assessment of John is much more valid.