Qpr

[Donkeeebles]

Don't forget also that if a player receives a bad pass from a team mate it gives him less time to control it in such a way that he can then play a good pass. Bad passes tend to build up in this way, especially amongst players of lower ability.

Add to that also the need for there to be players making runs into space to receive the ball. If nobody has made a run to receive a short pass and time is running out because the man with the ball is being closed down then he will tend to go for the safest option - sticking his foot through the ball and hoping for the best.

Long term this is Gary's responsibility to sort out. Short term there's not a lot he can do if the players on the pitch aren't doing what they should be.

Players of lower ability???? CCC is now lower ability is it? Our players are no longer capable of passing the ball/making decent runs????

So in future all an opposing team has to do is work hard and we will resort to hoofing it long????

Then i would suggest there isnt a lot of point in having a manager on the touchline!!!

[BCFC_Dan]

Players of lower ability???? CCC is now lower ability is it? Our players are no longer capable of passing the ball/making decent runs????

So in future all an opposing team has to do is work hard and we will resort to hoofing it long????

Then i would suggest there isnt a lot of point in having a manager on the touchline!!!

I know you're trying to be flippant but there's a lot of truth in what you say.

Quite a few of our players are ones who came up from league one. They're not as good as some of the other players in this division, and this division isn't as good as the one above it. Therefore I think it's safe to call them players of lower ability.

City's game is based upon effort and teamwork and it's been clear since last season that they struggle when the opposition match their workrate and close them down.

[Seend Red]

City's game is based upon effort and teamwork and it's been clear since last season that they struggle when the opposition match their workrate and close them down.

Good point but would that make them result to long ball? If that is the case then just proves the point that Gary needs to start involving/buying some players who are comfortable whilst playing whilst under pressure, psyically and mentally.

Loyality is all well and good but they aren't of the required standard it's misplaced.

[4eveREDDy]

There are going to be games when the tactics don't work or when the opposition or conditions stop them working. It's then that we need a bit of something special which none of the boys who played yesterday could deliver.

I am thinking that Trundle (as we all thought he would be), Murray (as he used to be), Noble (as he still might be) could have done something different to change the game. Like Gomez did for them - does anyone think we practise free kicks?

Check that answer by the number of goals we have scored by corners or free kicks, the answer may shock you.

[Donkeeebles]

I know you're trying to be flippant but there's a lot of truth in what you say.

Quite a few of our players are ones who came up from league one. They're not as good as some of the other players in this division, and this division isn't as good as the one above it. Therefore I think it's safe to call them players of lower ability.

City's game is based upon effort and teamwork and it's been clear since last season that they struggle when the opposition match their workrate and close them down.

I am not trying to be flippant! These players do this for a living! yes of course they are lower ability than Premier League players but to say they are of "lower ability" would suggest to me that you are implying they arent capable of one touch passing, controling the ball, making decent runs.

I think they are capable of all these things as is any professional footballer so IMO its not safe to call them "players of lower ability"

Effort is part of all teams game! Others on here have gone on about how hard QPR players must have worked to stop us playing! Well as you say we work just as hard in games and i have still seen teams be able to play football against us! Our game may well be based on effort and teamwork but we can still play a bit as well! If we couldnt we wouldnt be where we are in this division no matter how hard we worked! If simply closing down and working hard was a guaranteed way of stoping teams playing the ball on the ground and playing passing football then no team would be able to play football. It would all be hoofing it!!!!

[BCFC_Dan]

Good point but would that make them result to long ball? If that is the case then just proves the point that Gary needs to start involving/buying some players who are comfortable whilst playing whilst under pressure, psyically and mentally.

Loyality is all well and good but they aren't of the required standard it's misplaced.

I think it's a double thing. The players need to have the ability to play their way out of trouble but they also need to have the confidence in the abilities they do have. Frankly it's up to Gary to sort both of these and I have faith in his ability to do that in the long term.

If we can get some better players in over the summer who are more comfortable on the ball and less prone to panicking and hoofing the ball aimlessly then that can only be a good thing. They have to be good at everything else as well, though, like working hard, tracking back and generally maintaining a high standard of fitness.

[BCFC_Dan]

I am not trying to be flippant! These players do this for a living! yes of course they are lower ability than Premier League players but to say they are of "lower ability" would suggest to me that you are implying they arent capable of one touch passing, controling the ball, making decent runs.

Well of course they are when the opposition allows them. I'm capable of doing all those things as well but not beyond the most pitiful of standards.

I think they are capable of all these things as is any professional footballer so IMO its not safe to call them "players of lower ability"

I'm not trying to discredit our players but compared to a number in the division they really are. They have many, many good qualities chief amongst which is generally their work rate, attitude and fitness levels. It's not necessarily their technical abilities.

Effort is part of all teams game! Others on here have gone on about how hard QPR players must have worked to stop us playing! Well as you say we work just as hard in games and i have still seen teams be able to play football against us!

Yes. Those teams have better players than we do. If a team with less technical ability can work harder than the opposition then they can beat them, but if the opposition match their work rate then quality will shine through. This is why you occasionally get cup upsets, but not always.

Our game may well be based on effort and teamwork but we can still play a bit as well! If we couldnt we wouldnt be where we are in this division no matter how hard we worked! If simply closing down and working hard was a guaranteed way of stopping teams playing the ball on the ground and playing passing football then no team would be able to play football. It would all be hoofing it!!!!

It's not a guaranteed way. It requires the opposition to work less hard and/or to have players of insufficient ability to overcome a hard working side. It works quite a lot of the time for City but not all of the time and the fact that it generally fails against the better sides in the division is a clear indicator of where the problem lies.

[Donkeeebles]

Well i gotta go now so thanks for the enjoyable opinions this morning!

Redmandan/BcfcDan......whilst i don't agree with some of the things you have said in this thread i do respect the fact that they are your opinions and have enjoyed swapping them with you.

Cheers Fella's

[red man dan]

My whole point here is that changing an overall game from the touchline as a manager is simly not as easy as some appear to think it is. I did not see the QPR game, so can not pinpoint my opinion on why our game was changed to a 'hoofball' scenario. Regardless, it was changed to a 'hoofball' ethic, and it would seem from what i have read/stroke watched on world that this deteriated from start to finish, that we got worse in this respect from half time untill the end. Once this sets in it IS hard for a player to recognise it, and also hard for a manager from the touchline to MAKE them recognise it. He will try as will his captain who the manager will more often communicate with. Players are moving at pace, back and forth, out of breath, short of breath, concentraiting on the opposition, concentrating on their own players, concentrating on their own positions, team mates postitions, oppositions posititions and a host of other things. They are to some extent, oblivious to the limited input that can be made from the touchline during a game. Why anyone thinks the shout, amongst all that is going on during the game, of 'LADS STOP HOOFING IT' is going to sort out all the problems that have set in during the course of the match is beyond me.

It also seems alot more simple from the sideline(for both manager and supporter), as you are NOT being effected by the oppostion as you are NOT playing. You also see the whole game, you are not effected by being an individual seeing through only their eyes. It is not always easy for a manger to get across what he see's as a whole, to a player who is seeing his game, not the game as a whole. This is again where a captain of good quality and experience plays a massive role, and as mentioned before we will have, i am sure, missed Louis Carey massively during a game when things did not go to the game plan. Some players read the game far better than others, they are often the ones who are captains, and are often on similar wave lenghs with regards to 'in play' as the manager is. They are the ones who's experience and influence as captain, along with their communicattion with the manager can really help to stop a rot or change things during the game.

[edson]

Well obviously i am from the "hard of understanding" category because i am finding it hard to understand why you are intent on taking a perfectly reasonable question and comment and turning it around to defend your argument!!!!

Nobody said a manager is resposible for everything a player does so i don't know why you are trying to make out that they have!

You obviously think that a manager trying to change the tactics of his team during a game is totally ridiculous and cannot be done.....that surprises me!!!!!!

Where do I say it "cannot be done"?

I said it doesn't always work. If you're suggesting managers give instructions to players and they always carry them out, then I have to disagree.

If that surprises you, then it surprises me that it surprises you.

[Seend Red]

I've found the exact quote from Johnson:

He declared: "We didn't do ourselves justice and, for whatever reason, that wasn't my game we were playing out there.

"I didn't recognise anything we were doing. We lumped the ball too much and hoped to get on the end of things, and that isn't the way we play.

Well I know that Gary but why did it happen? I'd love to know from a proper qualified manager could this happen in such an important game at such a high level of professional football.

[William Stand]

I've found the exact quote from Johnson:

He declared: "We didn't do ourselves justice and, for whatever reason, that wasn't my game we were playing out there.

"I didn't recognise anything we were doing. We lumped the ball too much and hoped to get on the end of things, and that isn't the way we play.

Well I know that Gary but why did it happen? I'd love to know from a proper qualified manager could this happen in such an important game at such a high level of professional football.

I really don't understand the point you're trying to make ?? Given the choice Benetez would want Liverpool playing the way they did in the last 3 games, not the way they did when they were held 0-0 by Stoke. Man Utd generally look great when they play with a high tempo, when they play at a lower tempo they look much poorer, these things happen.

Why did Ferguson let Man Utd play so poorly on Sat... he's arguably the best manager in the world ??

When we play with confidence we play good stuff. When we panic we tend to go long & not play so well - but I don't think thats coached into them. The pitch on Sat was pretty poor, that may have led to the midfielders not looking for the ball as much as usual, in turn that pretty much forces the defense to go long. I really don't get why you are so befuddled with it all ??

[Seend Red]

I really don't understand the point you're trying to make ?? Given the choice Benetez would want Liverpool playing the way they did in the last 3 games, not the way they did when they were held 0-0 by Stoke. Man Utd generally look great when they play with a high tempo, when they play at a lower tempo they look much poorer, these things happen.

Why did Ferguson let Man Utd play so poorly on Sat... he's arguably the best manager in the world ??

These poor examples have already been used in this thread, Utd lost because of poor self discipline and having two sent off, I don't remember Ferguson or Phelan saying after the match the players just stated doing there own thing and we didn't understand what they were doingl! Do you honestly believe if Utd as you used them as a example started to play against Sir AF wishes he'd just take it and say 'oh well thats football'! Of course not he be mad and you see it in his face!

When we play with confidence we play good stuff. When we panic we tend to go long & not play so well - but I don't think thats coached into them. The pitch on Sat was pretty poor, that may have led to the midfielders not looking for the ball as much as usual, in turn that pretty much forces the defense to go long. I really don't get why you are so befuddled with it all ??

Interesting you used the pitch as an excuse because Johnson said :

"Neither side created a lot and it wasn't a great game. The ball was bobbling around and it didn't make for an attractive spectacle. "We all like to see football being played, but it was exactly the same for both teams and QPR deserved their three points. On the day, we were second best.

"In terms of quality, we didn't do enough in the final third to win the game."

If I spend alot of money to buy a ticket then sit on a coach for 5 hours not to mention the tube which was horrendous as the Victoria Line was shut and there were signal problems- I expect to see some sort of quality from my team. Not to be subjected to watching park hoof football.

Befuddled! That was most possibly the final nail in our coffin and makes the play-offs all but impossible to reach which annoys me .

I'd ask you why are you so apathetic and indifferent!

Would I also we right in assuming you weren't there on Saturday?

[Riaz]

If I spend alot of money to buy a ticket then sit on a coach for 5 hours not to mention the tube which was horrendous as the Victoria Line was shut and there were signal problems- I expect to see some sort of quality from my team. Not to be

Did you not attend city games in the league one days? under Pulis for example?

[William Stand]

To be fair, if the team knew that the Victoria Line was down I'm sure that they'd have put more into it.............

Forget the Fulham match, Man U play well when they play high tempo, play poorly when they're low tempo. So do you think SAF sometimes says to them "I know it doesn't usually work when we play low tempo, but heck lets give it another go". Bizarre how it sounds, sometimes the other team on the pitch has an impact on how you play.

No I wasn't there on Sat - enjoy your super fan platitudes. In fact I rarely go away these days. However back in Div 3/4 I often went to almost every game Home & Away so I have seen my fair share of away disasters (5-1 Cambridge, 4 -0 Walsall, 2-1 Huddersfield on NYD to name but 3 of my "favourites".

The bit I don't get is you seem to think if Johnson picks the right team, gives them the right instructions & then the team carry them out, then voila, we win.

People support teams for different reasons I guess, I am more than happy with us being a comfortable Championship side. Yes, ideally I want us to be better, but I'm also conscious that in trying to make it better, we could make it a lot worse.

[Seend Red]

To be fair, if the team knew that the Victoria Line was down I'm sure that they'd have put more into it.............

I see you attend the Edson school of sarcasm. How very clever of you, you must be so very proud.

No I wasn't there on Sat - enjoy your super fan platitudes. In fact I rarely go away these days. However back in Div 3/4 I often went to almost every game Home & Away so I have seen my fair share of away disasters (5-1 Cambridge, 4 -0 Walsall, 2-1 Huddersfield on NYD to name but 3 of my "favourites".

Super fan? This thread was going so well then sarcastic 'people' like you come along and turn it into a school playground quabble!

The point I'm making is if you weren't there on Saturday It explains why you don't understand why I'm so frustrated with the performance. It's nothing to do with super fan it just plain common sense that If I witnessed the match and you didn't I'm in better postion than you to comment.

The bit I don't get is you seem to think if Johnson picks the right team, gives them the right instructions & then the team carry them out, then voila, we win.

No. not at all. I think if you bother to read the thread you may grasp the original point I was making.

People support teams for different reasons I guess, I am more than happy with us being a comfortable Championship side. Yes, ideally I want us to be better, but I'm also conscious that in trying to make it better, we could make it a lot worse.

Well thats ambition for you and again nothing to do with the original point!! Aren't you a tiny bit interested as a Bristol City fan to hear from GJ to undrstand what happened on Saturday and why the players completely went off on one and ignored him? I know I am.

I don't buy into this confidence or poor pitch nonsense.

[William Stand]

Well thats ambition for you and again nothing to do with the original point!! Aren't you a tiny bit interested as a Bristol City fan to hear from GJ to undrstand what happened on Saturday and why the players completely went off on one and ignored him? I know I am.

I don't buy into this confidence or poor pitch nonsense.

I think for a club of our size (quite small) being a solid Championship side does represent ambition. Don't get me wrong I support the club not any player - I'd get rid of any of them (& I mean any) tomorrow, if we were guaranteed a better replacement. However I think it may be the case that at this precise point in time we developed as far as we can - the players that would really kick us on are probably either out of our range or have more attractive offers.

But back to the point. It never ceases to amaze me how people hang on to every word a manager (or chairman) says & try & disect it piece by piece. What managers say in the press & what they say in private or in deed what they actually mean is very different. Quite often, especially follow a defeat they speak utter nonesense (see SAF claiming Man U were better than Liverpool), I know they speak nonesense, you know it, so why try & dissect it ??

I'm consistent on this, it makes me chuckle all the "Johnson & Lansdown said we were going for promotion" posts - what did we expect them to say whilst they were trying to flog season tickets..... "christ we'll be lucky to match last year" ???

No sarcasm, but the fact is we just see things differently & aren't going to agree.

[redlozza]

Check that answer by the number of goals we have scored by corners or free kicks, the answer may shock you.

Shocked in what way? As far as I can see we have scored no goals direct from a free kick this season. Furthemore, of the few goals we have scored following a freekick or corner only 2 or 3 at most have been as a result of the quality of the cross by either McIndoe or McAllister. I don't believe Johnson has produced a goal directly from any corner or freekick this season. I am excluding McAllister's goal against Coventry as that was a pass rather than a cross.

[Slave to the rhythm]

Long term this is Gary's responsibility to sort out. Short term there's not a lot he can do if the players on the pitch aren't doing what they should be.

He could always try different players who are unlikely to play the long-ball game, such as Noble.

[exiledinwatford]

Shocked in what way? As far as I can see we have scored no goals direct from a free kick this season. Furthemore, of the few goals we have scored following a freekick or corner only 2 or 3 at most have been as a result of the quality of the cross by either McIndoe or McAllister. I don't believe Johnson has produced a goal directly from any corner or freekick this season. I am excluding McAllister's goal against Coventry as that was a pass rather than a cross.

What brought it home to me was Gomez's goal. Both City and QPR were laboring away and it wouldn't have surprised me if we had drawn 0-0. Yet another tame free kick award on the edge of the area and they are 1-0 up. I can't remember the last free kick that one of our players scored from like that - didn't Mickey Bell get one recently? Anyone remember?

[Seend Red]

I think for a club of our size (quite small) being a solid Championship side does represent ambition. Don't get me wrong I support the club not any player - I'd get rid of any of them (& I mean any) tomorrow, if we were guaranteed a better replacement. However I think it may be the case that at this precise point in time we developed as far as we can - the players that would really kick us on are probably either out of our range or have more attractive offers.

Swindon, Bradford City, Barnsley, Coventry, Fulham, Hull, Stoke, Oldham, QPR and Wigan play or have played in th Premier league. I don't think any of those clubs are bigger than City, in fact I'd say City were bigger than many of them.

If they can do it so can we but you have to have drive and ambition. Settling for second best just isn't the way forward.

Hence Why I'm so peeved about Saturday, just to say it doesn't matter because we're only little old Bristol City and to expect no better is just a cop out and a terrible attitude to take.

He could always try different players who are unlikely to play the long-ball game, such as Noble.

We both know that isn't going to happen has he's been frozen out. But the exact sort of player we needed on Saturday, some one to play the ball with composure whilst under pressure. A proper footballer if you like.

[dantheman]

I don't think it was a confidence thing, why should it have been? It wasn't a bad result against Cardiff, we played brilliantly and despite letting in a late one I thought they would have taken a lot out of the game. Disappointing yes, confidence shattering no way.

The one time Saturday we did look like a Johnson team was when we got the ball down, knocked it about, swept it out wide, whipped it in and scored.

From then, I actually felt we had found out how to open them up and might get wide and nick it. No - we got it back to 1-1 and went back into our shells, then conceded.

It was painfully obvious to me trying to switch it up a bit might have helped, as like others have said they totally stopped our long ball game, so why not get it down and out wide? Probably because we missed Williams who has been the most influential for the last few games, nobody else was bursting from central midfield looking to get the ball wide, create space for the strikers, instead we sat back all game with a huge hole between the midfield and front two with nobody attempting to fill it or go round it and whip it in.

If we were intent on 'hoofing' it I would have at least liked to have seen Sproule push right up with the front two, him and Maynard running off Dele might have taken a defender away for the big man but he couldn't win a header, and when he did it was a foul - somehow.

Generally a bad day, minus half time, and the tube ride back. Not over yet though, couple of wins in a row and it all changes again. All the teams around us are playing eachother and us so we have a chance.

[Slave to the rhythm]

We both know that isn't going to happen has he's been frozen out. But the exact sort of player we needed on Saturday, some one to play the ball with composure whilst under pressure. A proper footballer if you like.

Agreed that it won't happen, but it's nothing short of a disgrace that a talented player like Noble has been frozen out. It reflects very badly on Gary Johnson's man-management skills, and I wonder what Steve Lansdown makes of it. He cannot be happy that this has been allowed to happen.

[Seend Red]

Agreed that it won't happen, but it's nothing short of a disgrace that a talented player like Noble has been frozen out. It reflects very badly on Gary Johnson's man-management skills, and I wonder what Steve Lansdown makes of it. He cannot be happy that this has been allowed to happen.

I agree it's a shame. As you can see by my signature I'm a big Noble fan but I have accepted he will not play for City again.

Until he leave's I guess we'll never know the truth to why Gary has ignored him even though he's still on the pay roll.

[lager loud]

I wasn't there on Saturday, so stand to be corrected by those who were. But it seems to me we've played much better this season with 3 in the centre of midfield than when we've had only 2, and I wonder if Saturday was another example of what's happened many times when we've had a central midfield 2.

What I've seen in a number of games is there being no easy forward option for the defenders when they get the ball. If there's no midfielder in space 10 to 20 yards away any defender is likely to hoof the ball. It ends up looking like a strategy when in fact it's just a case of the defenders having no safe alternative. One of the great things that Gavin Williams has brought to the team is that he does seek out the ball around the centre circle, giving Orr, McCombe etc an easier option. Against a good midfield I'm not sure Skuse and Johnson is the partnership best suited to continuing the good play of recent weeks - when even if we haven't won we've played well for long spells.

[4eveREDDy]

Shocked in what way? As far as I can see we have scored no goals direct from a free kick this season. Furthemore, of the few goals we have scored following a freekick or corner only 2 or 3 at most have been as a result of the quality of the cross by either McIndoe or McAllister. I don't believe Johnson has produced a goal directly from any corner or freekick this season. I am excluding McAllister's goal against Coventry as that was a pass rather than a cross.

Nooooooooo you don't say, and there was i thinking we had scored a boatload from the superb corners, excellant crosses and inspiring free kicks, looks like we need to improve our game in those areas then.

[red man dan]

These poor examples have already been used in this thread, Utd lost because of poor self discipline and having two sent off, I don't remember Ferguson or Phelan saying after the match the players just stated doing there own thing and we didn't understand what they were doingl! Do you honestly believe if Utd as you used them as a example started to play against Sir AF wishes he'd just take it and say 'oh well thats football'! Of course not he be mad and you see it in his face!

Well thats ambition for you and again nothing to do with the original point!! Aren't you a tiny bit interested as a Bristol City fan to hear from GJ to undrstand what happened on Saturday and why the players completely went off on one and ignored him? I know I am.

I don't buy into this confidence or poor pitch nonsense.

This is the whole issue here. Why are people unable to grasp the fact that there are OTHER reasons for why players might not carry out what is asked of them by the manager?? Why do you believe it is simply a case of players 'doing there own thing' or 'ignoring' GJ?

Clearly GJ has stated that he didnt know why his players were'nt playing 'his game' but i don't for one second believe he alluded to the fact that he thought his players had IGNORED his wishes. I am fairly confident he would have been a hell of alot more angry had he believed the team had disobayed him or undermined his authority as manager by going against what he had asked for, which is essentially what is happeing if they have 'ignored' him.

That is NOT what has happened, and i don't believe GJ thinks that is what happened either. There are however reasons for why he did get what he wanted from his team, and i am sure he has found those reasons out today, and is putting them straight. I don't know how many times it can be said, but the opposition have a 50/50 opportunity to disrupt your game, as well as you do their's. QPR clearly won this battle. Its not about ignoring the managers plan its about not being able to carry out for what ever reason or reasons, and GJ will be addressing that.

I remember a certain Mr Stewart questioning GJ's authority and look where that got him, i don't expect any such fall out from the bad performance at QPR, as i don't believe the players intentionally went out and played 'their own game', they just were't able to play Gary's. We don't know why.

[bristolcitysweden]

I've found the exact quote from Johnson:

He declared: "We didn't do ourselves justice and, for whatever reason, that wasn't my game we were playing out there.

"I didn't recognise anything we were doing. We lumped the ball too much and hoped to get on the end of things, and that isn't the way we play.

Well I know that Gary but why did it happen? I'd love to know from a proper qualified manager could this happen in such an important game at such a high level of professional football.

You don't need hear it from Gj as you can listen to the bull s**t talking each single Saturday on Sky.

[BCFC_Dan]

He could always try different players who are unlikely to play the long-ball game, such as Noble.

David Noble isn't magic, you know.

Johnson has his own reasons for not using Noble and we've been over them a hundred times before.

I agree that having a player in the team who can pass the ball well to feet, keep hold of it in a tight spot and make runs to provide options would make a massive difference to the way the rest of the team play but if that player can't also contribute to the required extent when out of position then they cause more problems than they solve.

What we need is someone who does all the required defensive work, has the necessary attacking capabilities and is fit enough to play week in week out. It's either going to take an improvement in one of our current players, an impressive find by the scouting team, or a lot of money.

[Slave to the rhythm]

David Noble isn't magic, you know.

I know he isn't magic Dan, honestly I do. It just strikes me as ridiculous, and a case of cutting off our nose to spite our face, that he isn't even included as a sub any longer. Saturday was just the sort of occasion when bringing Noble off the bench for the last tweny minutes could have proved to have been just what we needed.

However, it isn't going to happen, and DN will be plying his trade elsewhere next season.