Lee In On Merit

[bcfcbs20]

I think they do ,but in my oppinion centre midfield is the most important position on the pitch.The centre midfielder needs to able to attack and defend.

and the wingers need to run at full backs and get crosses into the box or pass to our strikers which they havnt done

as for the cm if you have skuse or elliott as the midfield destroyer role and johnson as the link man its a fairly balanced cm but you then need your wingers doing what i said

its very rarely you run straight down the middle of a team you need width

[big p]

and the wingers need to run at full backs and get crosses into the box or pass to our strikers which they havnt done

as for the cm if you have skuse or elliott as the midfield destroyer role and johnson as the link man its a fairly balanced cm but you then need your wingers doing what i said

its very rarely you run straight down the middle of a team you need width

so lj is the link man ,thats what his job is it.he don't need to defend then,or push up.And as reguarding your case for wingers.well i heard SL a few months ago that GJ likes to play narrow football theres no width.but i agree we need to put more crosses in the box.

[gater2]

The problem here surely is that he NEVER gets dropped. I'm not a huge LJ fan, but I admit he definately merits a starting on some matches. The problem is, Gary's always said you must earn your place in the starting team, if you're not playing well you'll get dropped and if the player who replaced you is still playing well, you won't get back in until he's not playing well (that's the way it appears to me anyway). Now on this understanding Gary must literally have thought Lee has never had a bad run (about 3-4 games), which is simply not true of ANY player - everyone goes through a bad patch and deserves to be dropped, and something else tried. It's GJ's reluctance to try anything but LJ (apart from the bit towards the end of last season when LJ was injured and Carle was playing brilliantly in centre mid with Elliott and there was NO way he could be dropped - that's the only time though in the last 2 years pretty much when LJ has been fit and not picked).

Everyone else has had at least some time on the bench (rightly or wrongly), but LJ never seems to. Nothing else is ever TRIED in centre mid, whereas it is everywhere else. Even during the two very poor runs we've had this season (just before Christmas and the one we're currently in), no innovation seems to be used, and that, I think, is the reason some of us are saying what we are (it's not that we think LJ is the worst player ever and he should go back to League 2..although having seen some of the comments on the forum this year, that might more accurately describe some).

[City1970]

In my opinion, LJ is in the side whatever his form. I believe we needed a player the same quality as Elliott to go with Elliott in the middle. We needed that player last summer.

How many times has LJ been on the bench this season?

442 he`s in there, 352 he`s in there, 433 he`s in there. You can have the LJ debate forever and nothing will change. His father is giving him Championship football.

[ooRya]

In my opinion, LJ is in the side whatever his form. I believe we needed a player the same quality as Elliott to go with Elliott in the middle. We needed that player last summer.

How many times has LJ been on the bench this season?

442 he`s in there, 352 he`s in there, 433 he`s in there. You can have the LJ debate forever and nothing will change. His father is giving him Championship football.

Now, I guess I would class myself as an "LJ supporter" and I have previously given my reasons why in many other threads.

However, I do recognise that there are others who have a differing opinion to myself, and whilst I don't always agree with their points I do try and take on-board what they have to say, and I do consider their arguments.

BUT I'm afraid comments like the one above do nothing more than detract from, and belittle anyone elses genuine thoughts/concerns about LJ being in the team.

[City1970]

Now, I guess I would class myself as an "LJ supporter" and I have previously given my reasons why in many other threads.

However, I do recognise that there are others who have a differing opinion to myself, and whilst I don't always agree with their points I do try and take on-board what they have to say, and I do consider their arguments.

BUT I'm afraid comments like the one above do nothing more than detract from, and belittle anyone elses genuine thoughts/concerns about LJ being in the team.

Everybody has an opinion, and in my opinion we need a strong midfielder to go with Elliott. If we lose Marvin then we need to purchase or loan two strong midfielders similar class to Marvin.

You may have given your reasons why you rate LJ, but you must realise that other people do not rate him and I guess I am one of those people. It is not a derogatory comment it is my genuin belief.

I would like to see a strong midfield and I would also like to see us push on.

[Lack of Action Man]

"There are times people want me to leave him out, but I can't always do that because you just pick the team that you think will progress the club.

Frustrating. To say the least.

[BCFC_Dan]

Part of the problem is that Elliot isn't the defensive midfield "destroyer" people seem to think he is. He gets forward every bit as much as Lee Johnson (quite possibly more, I think he's scored more goals) so it's not like Elliot is sitting deep and Johnson is choosing not to go forward himself.

I would argue that if we wanted to see a "traditional" midfield partnership of a defensive "stopper" who always sits back and a more creative attacking midfielder then Skuse and Williams would be the top choice. Now that Skuse is developing as a player I think he can do Lee Johnson's deep-lying job whilst adding some of Marvin's tackling ability. Having a player able to do both jobs would free up some license for Williams to be a solely attacking player. If Skuse can keep developing as he has done, and if someone comes in for Elliot then I think we might see something like that next season.

Basically what I am trying to say is that Elliot and Johnson complement each other quite well and that each covers for the others limitations. If we want to see a player like Williams in an attacking midfield role then I think we need to replace Elliot too because he's not the purely defensive midfielder that system would need.

[Nibor]

Part of the problem is that Elliot isn't the defensive midfield "destroyer" people seem to think he is. He gets forward every bit as much as Lee Johnson (quite possibly more, I think he's scored more goals) so it's not like Elliot is sitting deep and Johnson is choosing not to go forward himself.

I would argue that if we wanted to see a "traditional" midfield partnership of a defensive "stopper" who always sits back and a more creative attacking midfielder then Skuse and Williams would be the top choice. Now that Skuse is developing as a player I think he can do Lee Johnson's deep-lying job whilst adding some of Marvin's tackling ability. Having a player able to do both jobs would free up some license for Williams to be a solely attacking player. If Skuse can keep developing as he has done, and if someone comes in for Elliot then I think we might see something like that next season.

Basically what I am trying to say is that Elliot and Johnson complement each other quite well and that each covers for the others limitations. If we want to see a player like Williams in an attacking midfield role then I think we need to replace Elliot too because he's not the purely defensive midfielder that system would need.

Here's how I see our central midfielders.

Elliott certainly isn't just a defensive midfielder as you say - he does that box to box job and is very much an energetic all action midfielder. His strength is breaking up play, the physical side of the game with some reasonable pace and a great workrate but he gets forward and strikes a ball well and is dangerous in the air. He can't pass over distance and isn't very crafty.

Skuse is a more reserved and cultured version of Elliott. Not as strong or good in the tackle (but decent) and not quite as ambitious going forward, can't shoot for toffee but better control and much better passing. Very quick, too. Tends to play behind the opposing midfield. Still seems to make mistakes attributable to youth that he should have grown out of.

Williams can run with the ball and has a few tricks on it, he shoots and passes well. He's not a great tackler but does try and not great in the air. Fairly quick, prefers to play in front of the opposing midfield.

LJ sits in front of the defence and behind the opposition midfield and takes the easy pass looking to spread the ball. He's a fair passer over distance. He supports the wingers but doesn't get into the box much himself. He does very little defensively at all and is weak tackling and in the air. Covers lots of ground and usually available but one paced and not very quick. Sometimes passes the buck too much and puts other players in trouble.

Noble has by far the most skill on the ball, retains it well under pressure and is excellent at incisive passing over short distances. He can shoot, and has great instincts for interplay around the box but he's fairly weak defensively, not quick, and doesn't have the workrate of the others. Definitely prefers to receive the ball ahead of the opposition midfield. He's also been bombed out.

Don't know owt about Artus myself so won't comment other than to say I'll be delighted if he is the all rounder people who watch him seem to think he is and he makes the first team this summer.

From those the two I'd pick in a 442 are Elliott or Skuse with Williams or Noble. Why? I don't really subscribe to the notion that in a 442 you must have one player always sitting and one always attacking. It's an idea that only really arose since Chelsea played with an anchorman and people used it as an excuse for Gerrard and Lampard not playing well together. It's perfectly possible to have two midfielders that both attack and defend from box to box. But when you do have a player in the centre of midfield in a 442 who has no defensive game at all they have to be very special going forward to make up for it and frankly LJ isn't.

Williams and Noble are not much better defensively but are much better around the opposition box. They're also more talented at the short intricate passing around the box that results in through balls that suit Maynard as opposed to the longer passes LJ is better at that suit Dele. Skuse and Elliott on the same pitch could work fairly well especially away from home if Skuse they can learn to cover for each other in turn. LJ could play well in a 3 man midfield (and has always had his best games when we do that) where he has more time on the ball and no defensive work to do but we just spent £2.25m on a striker who needs a partner.

Now Noble is gone anyway, and GJ has avoided playing Williams centrally an awful lot. Given that, I'd like to see us push the boat out a bit and sign a player like Alex Russell or Gary Shelton (but hopefully in their mid 20s). Somebody comfortable on the ball who can pass, tackle and shoot. A jack of all trades if you like and whilst not a master of any perhaps at least very good at most things. That'll be very expensive but I think it's really essential if we want into the top 6.

[SimplyRed]

Bottom line is we will not get the quality central midfielder we need while Lee Johnson is at the club and his father is manager.

Like it or not, Gary Johnson honestly believes his son is the best thing since sliced bread in that position and while he holds that opinion, Lee Johnson will continue to figure in Bristol City teams.

It is absolutely pointless arguing the toss every other day, because while these two are at the club, it will stay that way.

For me, that means we'll struggle again next year because Johnson will not bring in anybody better than Lee Johnson.

[BCFC_Dan]

Here's how I see our central midfielders.

Elliott certainly isn't just a defensive midfielder as you say - he does that box to box job and is very much an energetic all action midfielder. His strength is breaking up play, the physical side of the game with some reasonable pace and a great workrate but he gets forward and strikes a ball well and is dangerous in the air. He can't pass over distance and isn't very crafty.

Skuse is a more reserved and cultured version of Elliott. Not as strong or good in the tackle (but decent) and not quite as ambitious going forward, can't shoot for toffee but better control and much better passing. Very quick, too. Tends to play behind the opposing midfield. Still seems to make mistakes attributable to youth that he should have grown out of.

Williams can run with the ball and has a few tricks on it, he shoots and passes well. He's not a great tackler but does try and not great in the air. Fairly quick, prefers to play in front of the opposing midfield.

LJ sits in front of the defence and behind the opposition midfield and takes the easy pass looking to spread the ball. He's a fair passer over distance. He supports the wingers but doesn't get into the box much himself. He does very little defensively at all and is weak tackling and in the air. Covers lots of ground and usually available but one paced and not very quick. Sometimes passes the buck too much and puts other players in trouble.

Noble has by far the most skill on the ball, retains it well under pressure and is excellent at incisive passing over short distances. He can shoot, and has great instincts for interplay around the box but he's fairly weak defensively, not quick, and doesn't have the workrate of the others. Definitely prefers to receive the ball ahead of the opposition midfield. He's also been bombed out.

Don't know owt about Artus myself so won't comment other than to say I'll be delighted if he is the all rounder people who watch him seem to think he is and he makes the first team this summer.

From those the two I'd pick in a 442 are Elliott or Skuse with Williams or Noble. Why? I don't really subscribe to the notion that in a 442 you must have one player always sitting and one always attacking. It's an idea that only really arose since Chelsea played with an anchorman and people used it as an excuse for Gerrard and Lampard not playing well together. It's perfectly possible to have two midfielders that both attack and defend from box to box. But when you do have a player in the centre of midfield in a 442 who has no defensive game at all they have to be very special going forward to make up for it and frankly LJ isn't.

Williams and Noble are not much better defensively but are much better around the opposition box. They're also more talented at the short intricate passing around the box that results in through balls that suit Maynard as opposed to the longer passes LJ is better at that suit Dele. Skuse and Elliott on the same pitch could work fairly well especially away from home if Skuse they can learn to cover for each other in turn. LJ could play well in a 3 man midfield (and has always had his best games when we do that) where he has more time on the ball and no defensive work to do but we just spent £2.25m on a striker who needs a partner.

Now Noble is gone anyway, and GJ has avoided playing Williams centrally an awful lot. Given that, I'd like to see us push the boat out a bit and sign a player like Alex Russell or Gary Shelton (but hopefully in their mid 20s). Somebody comfortable on the ball who can pass, tackle and shoot. A jack of all trades if you like and whilst not a master of any perhaps at least very good at most things. That'll be very expensive but I think it's really essential if we want into the top 6.

I think that's a very good summary of City's midfield options at present.

I do think, however, that whilst Lee Johnson isn't the world's greatest defensive player he's being asked to sit a little deeper to allow Marvin more license to roam about causing havoc.

I think that when Lee Johnson was signed, after it was discovered he couldn't play alongside Noble, he formed a good partnership with Russell but Russell was never going to be up to the Championship at his age so he had to be replaced. Elliot turned out to be such a useful and popular player alongside Johnson that Johnson almost had to be retained to allow Elliot to play in the way he has done.

Having said that, Marvin was out for a lot of this season and Johnson retained his place, even when Skuse proved himself and Williams got fit. So perhaps I'm clutching at straws a bit here. If no signings are made I'd like to see Skuse partner Williams at least once next season as I think it would be a good partnership.

[WhistleHappy]

... dunno who this Merit fellow is or who he plays for but if ...

Lee's In On Merit... you can be sure he aint gone in very hard! :noexpression:

[NickJ]

I do think, however, that whilst Lee Johnson isn't the world's greatest defensive player he's being asked to sit a little deeper to allow Marvin more license to roam about causing havoc.

Marvin roaming around causing havoc?

What does that mean exactly?

Marvin running around around like a nutcase breaking up opposition play, putting pressure on their defenders, scoring the ocassional goal? Yep, agree with that, but creative he aint, creative he wouldnt claim to be, creative thats not what he's there for.

Which leaves Lee's role in the team - which most people, even his supporters, agree, isnt being creative. Its not being a tenacious tackler either.

So as you say, it leaves being asked to sit deep - and do what, exactly?

I know this whole thing goes around in circles, but as die hard City supporters, people that pay the wages, people that will spend our lives supporting our team, I think we are entitled to ask these questions.

[bcfcbs20]

its funny sproule or who ever has been playing rm this season has been poor alot worse than lj but the sproule thread has about 8 posts while the lj threads has over 100

[SyntaxtheRed]

But when you do have a player in the centre of midfield in a 442 who has no defensive game at all they have to be very special going forward to make up for it and frankly LJ isn't.

This is the situation.

Still i think LJ has got better this season, so i hope that will continue.

[BCFC_Dan]

Marvin roaming around causing havoc?

What does that mean exactly?

It means that Marvin is very good at getting up and down the pitch and putting himself about, but he can be a bit "headless chicken" at times. Just as Tommy Doherty needed the unsung Joe Burnell to cover for his positional inadequacies, so Marvin needs Lee Johnson to sit in and cover when Marvin is out of place.

Not that this doesn't mean Lee Johnson has to make a lot of tackles - just being there to hold things up until someone else gets back can be enough. A player like Williams or Noble simply wouldn't be there and the defence would be a lot more exposed.

[ooRya]

Everybody has an opinion, and in my opinion we need a strong midfielder to go with Elliott. If we lose Marvin then we need to purchase or loan two strong midfielders similar class to Marvin.

You may have given your reasons why you rate LJ, but you must realise that other people do not rate him and I guess I am one of those people. It is not a derogatory comment it is my genuin belief.

I would like to see a strong midfield and I would also like to see us push on.

How you can say that your statement of HIS FATHER IS GIVING HIM CHAMPIONSHIP FOOTBALL isn't a derogatory comment is totally beyond me. :noexpression:

[City1970]

Bottom line is we will not get the quality central midfielder we need while Lee Johnson is at the club and his father is manager.

Like it or not, Gary Johnson honestly believes his son is the best thing since sliced bread in that position and while he holds that opinion, Lee Johnson will continue to figure in Bristol City teams.

It is absolutely pointless arguing the toss every other day, because while these two are at the club, it will stay that way.

For me, that means we'll struggle again next year because Johnson will not bring in anybody better than Lee Johnson.

Spot on.

The central midfield has been the problem for two seasons now.

To push on, we need to strengthen that department.

[City1970]

How you can say that your statement of HIS FATHER IS GIVING HIM CHAMPIONSHIP FOOTBALL isn't a derogatory comment is totally beyond me. :noexpression:

It is not derogatory.

It is a fact.

[cheese]

It is not derogatory.

It is a fact.

Facts can't be derogatory??

[Tales From The Front]

One fact you cant away from irrespective or perosnalties and formations used is that last season we did not have a striker that reached double figures, this year we have two (just) but no whare near reaching the respected 20 goal mark.

This tells me either all our strikers are missing chance after chance or we just arn't creating enough chances or percentage of play.

I think the manager needs to evailuate the whole midfield divsion of the squad becuase I think LJ, McIndoe and Sproule have been considtantly below the standard required to be top six at this level.

Strikers should be critiscised if failing to fulfill a 1-3 chance to goal ratio. We have had the opta / prozone arguments made to defend the like of Lee Johnson et al. I would be interested to be told the statstic of goals to chances ratio of the strikers becuase I beleive it would certianly contibute to this debate.

[cheese]

One fact you cant away from irrespective or perosnalties and formations used is that last season we did not have a striker that reached double figures, this year we have two (just) but no whare near reaching the respected 20 goal mark.

This tells me either all our strikers are missing chance after chance or we just arn't creating enough chances or percentage of play.

I think the manager needs to evailuate the whole midfield divsion of the squad becuase I think LJ, McIndoe and Sproule have been considtantly below the standard required to be top six at this level.

Strikers should be critiscised if failing to fulfill a 1-3 chance to goal ratio. We have had the opta / prozone arguments made to defend the like of Lee Johnson et al. I would be interested to be told the statstic of goals to chances ratio of the strikers becuase I beleive it would certianly contibute to this debate.

I know a chance doesn't necessarily result in a shot but, we have had as many shots on goal as Wolves but scored 25 goals fewer; we've had 21 more shots off target than them.

Telegraph Stats

[Spike]

I know a chance doesn't necessarily result in a shot but, we have had as many shots on goal as Wolves but scored 25 goals fewer; we've had 21 more shots off target than them.

Telegraph Stats

Those stats mean nothing unless you look at the chances. Wolves create better chances and therefore their shots have a better chance of being sucessful. With shots on goal a 40 yard shot that dribbles to the keepers feet is statistically recorded as the same as a 6 yard open goal attempt. Wolves ultimately create a better chance than we do as they have that bit more creativity where it counts

[cheese]

Those stats mean nothing unless you look at the chances. Wolves create better chances and therefore their shots have a better chance of being sucessful. With shots on goal a 40 yard shot that dribbles to the keepers feet is statistically recorded as the same as a 6 yard open goal attempt. Wolves ultimately create a better chance than we do as they have that bit more creativity where it counts

Yes, I do believe I acknowledged that fact.

[Spike]

Yes, I do believe I acknowledged that fact.

but you're still using stats to argue a point that is irrelivent. How many shots on or off target we've had compared to another club means nothing when they are taken out of context. Stats like that would only give us a realistic comparrison of our strikers vs theirs if they'd had the same shot chances which they didn't.

I don't think the issue is our finishing, I think it's more down to the fact we are not creative in our chances and the opposition can read us and close us down so when those shots are fired off there is a higher chance they will go wide, high or easily be saved.

I still don't think our problem is strikers this season as I think maynard could have hit 30 with a better supply but most of his chances are self created or come from Adebola flick ons. To simplify it I think we lack something all the best teams have... wingers! Not wide midfielders like McIndoe, skillfull wingers who can get out wide, causes problems and put in great crosses from the byline rather than deep. All very good teams have either wingers or a very creative central midfielder... try and name a successful team that doesn't have atleast one very creative midfielder or a troubling winger. We have neither of those, although you could argue Sproule is a winger but then I'd just point out he's only got pace, lacks ability to take players on and his crosses aren't very good either.

[cheese]

but you're still using stats to argue a point that is irrelivent. How many shots on or off target we've had compared to another club means nothing when they are taken out of context. Stats like that would only give us a realistic comparrison of our strikers vs theirs if they'd had the same shot chances which they didn't.

No, I merely presented the facts - I didn't attempt to draw any conclusions from them - you are though.

I don't think the issue is our finishing, I think it's more down to the fact we are not creative in our chances and the opposition can read us and close us down so when those shots are fired off there is a higher chance they will go wide, high or easily be saved.

Shots on target are not, by definition, wide or high. A useful breakdown would be to know where the shots come from, outside the box, inside the box, within 18 yards etc etc.

[Tales From The Front]

I know a chance doesn't necessarily result in a shot but, we have had as many shots on goal as Wolves but scored 25 goals fewer; we've had 21 more shots off target than them.

Telegraph Stats

Fair enough but my post was specificaly about the chances created for and taken / missed by the strikers not the collective efforts of the team.

[Ryan 7]

So what GJ is basically saying is that LJ will always be an automatic starter ?!

[BCFC_Dan]

So what GJ is basically saying is that LJ will always be an automatic starter ?!

No. He's saying that of the current squad Lee is one of the players who will always play when fit. He doesn't say anything about the squad staying the same forever.