Percy Parrot Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfc Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 The UK will never be allowed to lead the EU or have a major say........The whole concept is France and Germanys baby. I see no problem with a trading bloc of European Nations which is what the citiziens of the UK originally voted for.Political Union,Euro Courts,Euro Law and a single currency was never mentioned and powers have been handed to Europe on a yearly basis and there is nothing the people of the UK can do about it. The Lisbon treaty has been voted on and rejected by the people of three nations now and still it will be enshrined in law as the Eurocrats ignore the will of the people and democracy as they pursue their goal of a United States of Europe. You make out that we should be grateful that the UK gets measly grants and rebates which are a fraction of what we put in which is roughly £60bn per year.The little bit that we get back along with the crumbs are not something to be thankful for as it is "OUR MONEY". Since we have been a member of the Common Market the UK has been one of only three Nations who are net contributors which means we pay in far more than we get back and far more than any other nation bar two. You may be pleased that the UK pays billions and billions of pounds per year to subsidise countries that have nothing to offer like Belgium,Luxembourg along with a host of eastern European Countries but many in this Country are not pleased which is why the people of the UK will never be allowed to vote about important issues that affect our future in Europe. If there was a referendum on the Euro there would be a resounding no vote,if we had the referendum on the Lisbon Treaty that we were promised there would have been a resounding no.If there was to be a vote on our remaining in the EU the chances are that the people would vote to pull out with immediate effect. The UK would then save approx £60bn per anum and still be able to trade within the euro zone and with whoever we wished..........If you have a decent product to sell others will buy it and you do not need some club where it costs you more to be a member than if you weren`t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfc Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Just to add to moomins superb answers is it a coincidence that many new countries we see now were part of one old union that were forced together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 1. We are part of the largest international trading market in the world Absolute Lib-Lab-Con EU loving bullshit. Japan, the USA, and Russia are the main players on the international trading market. The European Union is led by Germany - losers in two world wars. The European Union is a union of losers - the sooner we (England) get out of this crap organisation the better. All the the European Union is good at is trading common agricultural policy (CAP) benefits whereby our labour pays for some lowlife land owning Toff in Germany, France or England to reap the rewards of our labour via unearned CAP grants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Parrot Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfc Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 The rebate we get now has been slashed enormously and is not the same percentage as the rebate Margaret Thatcher fought for. £60bn per year is one of the lowest figures from some experts but many economic experts put the figure at closer to £80bn per year. A very high price to pay for the tiny insignificent privileges that you are delighted with and see as value for money. The EU that you love so much has turned serial political loser Neil Kinnock into a millionaire 10 times over and he was never elected by the people to make decisions that concern the citizens of the UK............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Parrot Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Parrot Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Parrot Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Parrot Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 The rebate we get now has been slashed enormously and is not the same percentage as the rebate Margaret Thatcher fought for. 20% I think. Times have changed a lot since 1983/4 whenever the original rebate was sorted. £60bn per year is one of the lowest figures from some experts but many economic experts put the figure at closer to £80bn per year. Err...no £4bn is one of the lower figures. The £60bn+ things are just nuts, exaggerated guessing games by anti-Europeans. It's made up almost entirely of things they think might cost such as compliance with regulation - many many many experts think such figures are totally and utterly misleading and that the EU has a large economic BENEFIT to the economy and that leaving the EU would cost us billions. The EU that you love so much has turned serial political loser Neil Kinnock into a millionaire 10 times over and he was never elected by the people to make decisions that concern the citizens of the UK............ Do you think we should vote for everyone who makes decisions for us? Ok so let's start voting for each cabinet member, every police chief, each head of the armed forces, the queen, our football manager, all the major civil servants, the head of the BBC, transport leaders.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Do you think we should vote for everyone who makes decisions for us? Ok so let's start voting for each cabinet member, every police chief, each head of the armed forces, the queen, our football manager, all the major civil servants, the head of the BBC, transport leaders.... What a terrible point. What is a democracy again. Have you forgotten like so many of our politicians have, who they represent and that they are there to serve us and the majority view. They are not there to serve themselves and get unbelievably rich in the process, claiming who knows what. Sounds like you have now described a dictatorship, which is exactly what the United States of Europe will become, led by Germany and France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Parrot Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 What a terrible point. No it's not. You can't vote in every single person who ever represents Britain. What is a democracy again. What we have. We were taken into Europe by democratically elected governments who are then re-elected by popular vote*. Both the Heath administration of '73 (joined EEC) and the Major governement of '92 (signed Maastricht) were elected. (*-brings me on to another point, below) Have you forgotten like so many of our politicians have, who they represent and that they are there to serve us and the majority view. No they aren't actually. They're elected to govern, lead and take bold calculated decisions for the long-term good of the country and not twist and turn every 2 minutes as soon as the political mood of the country changes. To ask the country about every topic go with populist beliefs on very complex tasks is like asking me to vote on the best computer technology - I do not have a bloody clue about it so no point in asking me. If it affected me I'd speak to a couple of groups, decide which lot I thought knew their stuff best and most in tune with my thoughts and let their expertise decide. A case in point - the US has referndums on lots of stuff. Many states/districts are in all sorts of problems because the population vote on everything popular - so they vote yes to new schools, no hospitals, free chocolate and a cherry on top but then reject the budget needed to pay for it all. Result - nothing voted on gets done, states end up with huge financial problems etc. That's why we have local govt, national govt, European govt, bicameral legislature, think-tanks and working groups and why all of those are highly valued in Westminster. Without being too rude your ideological views don't seem to factor in any element of reality, pragmatism or feasibility and suggest very little grasp or knowledge of politcal systems or functions. Some of the greatest political leaders (and football managers) take very unpopular decisions sometimes but those that are best. I remember Johnson dropping Stewart, Bridges and Phillips - we paid his wages and he was there as manager of our football club and the majority didn't agree with him. But the outcome was awesome. He had overall vision, bravery and knew more about the players than we did. You want a popular example - Keegan and Shearer at Newcastle. They are not there to serve themselves and get unbelievably rich in the process, claiming who knows what. What a terrible point. You're trying to link MPs (nothing to do with Europe) to the EU. The only major fraudsters of Europe are UKIP where half their MEPs have either been to prison or prosecuted for fraud, left the party or in the case of their leader fiddled £2m of public funds. UKIP ARE THE BIGGEST CROOKS OF THE ENTIRE UK POLITICAL SPECTRUM BY A COUNTRY MILE. Even their founder and former leaders agree with that. In fact if expenses and gravy trains really bother you then I assume you'll be voting Lib Dem next election as they were far less affected by expenses scandal than the other parties and voted to a man on reform (scrap 2nd home allowance) a year ago. Of the 176 MPs that voted against scrapping second homes allowance 146 were Labour, 20 were Labour, 0 were Lib Dems. So bizzarely enough the one party you probably hate about the "gravy train" appear to be the cleanest. Sounds like you have now described a dictatorship, which is exactly what the United States of Europe will become, led by Germany and France. Utter rubbish and a rather desperate argument. Despite the fact I've already addressed the "France and Germany dominance" myth and the fact that no-one in all of Europe wants a United States you keep shouting your Sun/Mail soundbites despite the fact they have no weight at all. If you're going to suggest a United States of Europe provide evidence of someone saying it. If you claim French and German dominance then show me shy - don't just keep shouting the same Sun headlines over and over in the belief that if you repeat them often enough they somehow become at all factual. Now back to my * point earlier on. If democracy, popular opinion and representing the people is so important to you I assume you'll be campaigning for electoral reform and proportional representation? In 1997 the Labour party promised a referendum on that and were elected on that manifesto. You obviously care about referendums so I assume you'll back the idea of a referendum because it was promised a long time before any referendum on European Constitution or Lisbon. I bring it up also because Feb 1974 the party with the most votes lost the election. That's our democracy as it stands - you can win an election and still lose it! Same happened in the USA with their first-past-the-post system in 2000 and we got George Bush! Then in 1983 27.6% of the vote won 209 seats while 25.4% of the SDP won just 23 seats!!!! Even in 2005 certain parties needed two and a half times the number of votes of other parties per MP. So you can have 70,000 people voting one way and getting one MP while another 70,000 people voting for another party get 2.5 MPs! I guess I should get you signed up for the Electoral Reform Society now if you aren't already? www.electoral-reform.org.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 The former Soviet states/Soviet controlled states are now far far more closely aligned with us than Russia. That is clearly a good thing. Yep, and the former Commitern state of East Germany is now very closely aligned with the rest of Germany. It was by keeping Germany divided that another world war was avoided. A re-united and economically strong Germany means they will soon totally dictate law and policy to the rest of Europe. Germany already has the largest amount of MEPs in the EU. UKIP leader Nigel Farage tells German Chancellor Angela Merkel the way it is..... Even better, Nigel Farage on who's who in the EU commission ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 No it's not. You can't vote in every single person who ever represents Britain. What we have. We were taken into Europe by democratically elected governments who are then re-elected by popular vote*. Both the Heath administration of '73 (joined EEC) and the Major governement of '92 (signed Maastricht) were elected. (*-brings me on to another point, below) No they aren't actually. They're elected to govern, lead and take bold calculated decisions for the long-term good of the country and not twist and turn every 2 minutes as soon as the political mood of the country changes. To ask the country about every topic go with populist beliefs on very complex tasks is like asking me to vote on the best computer technology - I do not have a bloody clue about it so no point in asking me. If it affected me I'd speak to a couple of groups, decide which lot I thought knew their stuff best and most in tune with my thoughts and let their expertise decide. A case in point - the US has referndums on lots of stuff. Many states/districts are in all sorts of problems because the population vote on everything popular - so they vote yes to new schools, no hospitals, free chocolate and a cherry on top but then reject the budget needed to pay for it all. Result - nothing voted on gets done, states end up with huge financial problems etc. That's why we have local govt, national govt, European govt, bicameral legislature, think-tanks and working groups and why all of those are highly valued in Westminster. Without being too rude your ideological views don't seem to factor in any element of reality, pragmatism or feasibility and suggest very little grasp or knowledge of politcal systems or functions. Absolute rubbish, you have a vote to elect a representative, he/she then in turns serves his constituency on the promises they have made to get in. Otherwise what's the bloody point in them standing for election in the first place if someone else unelected takes their place. Some of the greatest political leaders (and football managers) take very unpopular decisions sometimes but those that are best. I remember Johnson dropping Stewart, Bridges and Phillips - we paid his wages and he was there as manager of our football club and the majority didn't agree with him. But the outcome was awesome. He had overall vision, bravery and knew more about the players than we did. You want a popular example - Keegan and Shearer at Newcastle. What a terrible point. You're trying to link MPs (nothing to do with Europe) to the EU. The only major fraudsters of Europe are UKIP where half their MEPs have either been to prison or prosecuted for fraud, left the party or in the case of their leader fiddled £2m of public funds. UKIP ARE THE BIGGEST CROOKS OF THE ENTIRE UK POLITICAL SPECTRUM BY A COUNTRY MILE. Even their founder and former leaders agree with that. In fact if expenses and gravy trains really bother you then I assume you'll be voting Lib Dem next election as they were far less affected by expenses scandal than the other parties and voted to a man on reform (scrap 2nd home allowance) a year ago. Of the 176 MPs that voted against scrapping second homes allowance 146 were Labour, 20 were Labour, 0 were Lib Dems. So bizzarely enough the one party you probably hate about the "gravy train" appear to be the cleanest. UKIP the biggest crooks, don't make me laugh, the Kinnock party are the biggest crooks, one is a failed politician and the other is his wife who got the job because of who she is, this isn't based on ability, they got there because there was nowhere else for them to go in politics, so here is your golden handshake Neil the gravy train of Europe. Utter rubbish and a rather desperate argument. Despite the fact I've already addressed the "France and Germany dominance" myth and the fact that no-one in all of Europe wants a United States you keep shouting your Sun/Mail soundbites despite the fact they have no weight at all. If you're going to suggest a United States of Europe provide evidence of someone saying it. If you claim French and German dominance then show me shy - don't just keep shouting the same Sun headlines over and over in the belief that if you repeat them often enough they somehow become at all factual. Now back to my * point earlier on. If democracy, popular opinion and representing the people is so important to you I assume you'll be campaigning for electoral reform and proportional representation? In 1997 the Labour party promised a referendum on that and were elected on that manifesto. You obviously care about referendums so I assume you'll back the idea of a referendum because it was promised a long time before any referendum on European Constitution or Lisbon. I bring it up also because Feb 1974 the party with the most votes lost the election. That's our democracy as it stands - you can win an election and still lose it! Same happened in the USA with their first-past-the-post system in 2000 and we got George Bush! Then in 1983 27.6% of the vote won 209 seats while 25.4% of the SDP won just 23 seats!!!! Even in 2005 certain parties needed two and a half times the number of votes of other parties per MP. So you can have 70,000 people voting one way and getting one MP while another 70,000 people voting for another party get 2.5 MPs! I guess I should get you signed up for the Electoral Reform Society now if you aren't already? www.electoral-reform.org.uk I'm all in favour of proportional represenatation Percy, the result would mean that the party with the most votes gets into government. I'm also in favour of being allowed a vote to show whether the British people want to be forced into the European constitution., the Irish said no, so guess what, no isn't good enough, they have to go again to try and get it through. The Dutch said no too and the French, how about the British have their say and lets see what the answer is. Instead we had our unelected Scottish idiot cowardly signing our rights away against the majoritys wishes, behind closed doors three hours after 26 countries signed in front of the worlds media. I would suggest it was a shitty deal and he was too embarrassed to show his face, we only have a year left of him thank god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Parrot Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Refer to my previous who's who of UKIP! Prison, fraud, splits, far-right extremism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Parrot Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I'm all in favour of proportional represenatation Percy, the result would mean that the party with the most votes gets into government. I'm also in favour of being allowed a vote to show whether the British people want to be forced into the European constitution., the Irish said no, so guess what, no isn't good enough, they have to go again to try and get it through. The Dutch said no too and the French, how about the British have their say and lets see what the answer is. Instead we had our unelected Scottish idiot cowardly signing our rights away against the majoritys wishes, behind closed doors three hours after 26 countries signed in front of the worlds media. I would suggest it was a shitty deal and he was too embarrassed to show his face, we only have a year left of him thank god. Brown's behind closed doors signing was clearly a whim to eurosceptics. It was rubbish and blew up in his face. To say he's unelected is true to some extent but he was a huge pillar of a party that was voted in in 1997, 2001 and 2005 so personally I don't get too upset by that. It's not like he's from a totally different party. Imagine Brown will stay on for as long as he can and it may well work for him. The economy looks to be slowly improving and the Tory vote hasn't really built up - still probably lose though, even if he has a very good year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted June 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I'll agree on one thing, that fairy tale must have taken you ages to write. I think we'll stop now, I'm not sure if the distance between here and your reality are worth it. Don't stop yet, I like your current avatar image - it remings me of "EU Tractor Production is up comrades!" Enjoy..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaxbourton Red Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 "It is to recreate the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe." Winston Churchill, 19 September 1946 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted June 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 "It is to recreate the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe." Winston Churchill, 19 September 1946 Winston Churchill said alot of things, it's interesting his views on race rarely get a mention.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaxbourton Red Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Civil war in Belgium is a realistic prospect. The best quote EVER on OTIB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted June 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Ok fair enough civil war is a touch overplaying it, but like any nation with two national identities there are calls for a split. The obvious one is in Spain, but I was suprised when I spent time with Italians there are people in the North who would happily cast off the South. Infact http://news.BBC.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7678777.stm Things can spiral vey quickly, look at kosovo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaxbourton Red Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 if you support UK independence from europe surely you must support scotish independence from the UK? It's only fair isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Parrot Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Parrot Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Ok fair enough civil war is a touch overplaying it, but like any nation with two national identities there are calls for a split. The obvious one is in Spain, but I was suprised when I spent time with Italians there are people in the North who would happily cast off the South. Infact http://news.BBC.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7678777.stm Things can spiral vey quickly, look at kosovo. 1. The EU is not a country and there are no plans for it to be so. 2. Yugoslavia was not and Kosovo is not in the EU. Perhaps it'd have been a different story had they been? 3. And yes there are always some people who want to live independently and rule themselves but to highlight only the problem countries would be to ignore the successes. UK, Spain, USA etc etc. May have their own unique probelms but where doesn't? Anyway, fact remains - the EU is not a country and so will not have those problems. There have always been groups of countries, pacts and blocs for various reasons - going back centuries and centuries that never became single nation states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 "It is to recreate the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe." Winston Churchill, 19 September 1946 Sir Arthur 'Bomber' Harris: "We've been accused of murder. What would we have been accused of had we let Hitler and *his* bloody gang win the bloody war? As for Dresden, it's simple, any psychiatrist can explain it: it's all to do with German brass bands and Dresden shepherdesses! All I can say is that all the German towns *put together* aren't worth the bones of a British grenadier!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaxbourton Red Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Sir Arthur 'Bomber' Harris: "We've been accused of murder. What would we have been accused of had we let Hitler and *his* bloody gang win the bloody war? As for Dresden, it's simple, any psychiatrist can explain it: it's all to do with German brass bands and Dresden shepherdesses! All I can say is that all the German towns *put together* aren't worth the bones of a British grenadier!" the destruction of dresden was a disgusting chapter of WWII, one of many, Churchill was right to condemn it as an act of terror and wanton destruction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 the destruction of dresden was a disgusting chapter of WWII, one of many, Churchill was right to condemn it as an act of terror and wanton destruction That's the problem with war at a distance, you don't see the horrific effects arising from your actions. Trident and Cruise make this even easier. Bring back hand-to-hand combat and cavalry charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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